Andy Anderson on the "Overcomers"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Point is: if you stick around, people eventually reveal their true orientation, of what sort it is. In retrospect, I saw something of the real LSM orientation that day . . .

I've been out of the LC for a long time. And over the decades I've checked in on the LC, to see if things have changed.

And yes, things have changed. Lee died, and the Blended Bros were born. Yet one thing that hasn't changed is their orientation. They might try to hide it, but it remains. Their orientation is never gonna change ... unless everyone leaves the LC. And that won't happen because some people will believe anything.

[MacDuff]

ZNPaaneah

Mt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Lu 12:31 But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Not heaven.

Colossians 3:
1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Paul explains the principle rather well.

Revelations 21:
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Where is it, if it's coming down out of heaven but didn't land on earth? Why mention a new earth, if that wasn't it's destination?

MacDuff

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by MacDuff

ZNPaaneah, Not heaven. Paul explains the principle rather well. Where is it, if it's coming down out of heaven but didn't land on earth? Why mention a new earth, if that wasn't it's destination?

The quote didn't make it when I I quoted your post, but it is a very interesting point. Our life is hid in Christ. Since Christ was going to Paradise from the Cross he told the thief he would see him there. However on the third day Christ ascended to the heavens and now sits by the right hand of God. Therefore the teaching may not be that we go to Paradise when we die but rather we go to where Christ is.

That is strongly supported by Paul's word in Phillippians:

1:20 According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
1:22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
1:24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

According to this verse when we die we will "be with Christ". Since Christ is in the heavens then it makes sense we would be too.

However, it still leaves the verse about "the dead in Christ rising first" to be reconciled.

Perhaps the bumper sticker should be "When you die will you be with Christ?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by MacDuff

Where is the New Jerusalem, if it's coming down out of heaven but didn't land on earth? Why mention a new earth, if that wasn't it's destination?

The new earth seems to be the destination of the New Jerusalem, but by the same logic, why mention its origin, heaven? Because, um, maybe the New Jerusalem brings heaven down to earth? As in, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"? So, then, if we care about "Thy kingdom come on earth", why don't we likewise care about "as it is in heaven"?

Nope, says the LC apologist. We don't care for that. Because Witness Lee didn't care for that. So neither do we.

WL was so keen to distinguish himself and his ministry from the rest of Christianity that he even separated himself and his ministry from the Bible. WL and the LC were so zealous to reject any orientation toward heaven as merely of darkened Christianity that they ended up ignoring the actual Bible, when it showed an orientation toward heaven. WL provided the LC with an alternative interpretational scheme, which included both implicit and explicit criticisms of Christian thought, and once that was set on the Bible, the LC could freely ignore the text. So how things should be "as in heaven" meant nothing, and the NJ descending "down from heaven" meant nothing. That didn't fit the scheme, so it didn't exist.

Next time you talk to an LC'er, bring up a verse that isn't trumpeted in the LSM hermeneutic. You'll either get a blank stare, and silence, or they'll get uncomfortable and will redirect the conversation to one of "their" verses.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

Next time you talk to an LC'er, bring up a verse that isn't trumpeted in the LSM hermeneutic. You'll either get a blank stare, and silence, or they'll get uncomfortable and will redirect the conversation to one of "their" verses.

Or they might ask how does the verse fit into God's Economy?