Andy Anderson on the "Overcomers"

[UntoHim]

One thing we can be sure of, this guy was not an overcomer, yet he got to be with the Lord Jesus in Paradise. The apostle Paul clearly implied that when Christians die they get to "be with Christ".(Phil 1:23) This puts a little bit of a hitch in the teachings of Nee and Lee. It really doesn't make much sense (biblically or otherwise) that the 1,000 year Kingdom (if it is indeed literal) is going to be a place of punishment for all the little bad boys and girls who didn't live up to some arbitrary, man-made set of teachings and requirements. So they get to be in Paradise with Christ (possibly for thousands of years), then at the 2nd coming they get to spend 1,000 years gashing their teeth in the outer darkness of Nee/Lee's "Summer School"(a la Dan Towle, LSM chief eschatologist) This sounds more like an attempt to control people and keep people in fear and trembling of your group and it's leader than sound biblical teaching.

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

One thing we can be sure of, this guy was not an overcomer, yet he got to be with the Lord Jesus in Paradise. The apostle Paul clearly implied that when Christians die they get to "be with Christ".(Phil 1:23) This puts a little bit of a hitch in the teachings of Nee and Lee. It really doesn't make much sense (biblically or otherwise) that the 1,000 year Kingdom (if it is indeed literal) is going to be a place of punishment for all the little bad boys and girls who didn't live up to some arbitrary, man-made set of teachings and requirements. So they get to be in Paradise with Christ (possibly for thousands of years), then at the 2nd coming they get to spend 1,000 years gashing their teeth in the outer darkness of Nee/Lee's "Summer School"(a la Dan Towle, LSM chief eschatologist) This sounds more like an attempt to control people and keep people in fear and trembling of your group and it's leader than sound biblical teaching.

UntoHim,

We agree that this thief was not an overcomer and we agree that he was with the Lord in the abode of the dead people of God, a place called Paradise, the place visited by Christ after His death, a place of apparent comfort implied by not only its name, and the reference of Paul you mentioned, but also that Abraham was there with a poor man named Lazarus. The alternative being a place of torment as indicated by the suffering of the rich man.

I believe the outer darkness is indicative, probably a real sphere or realm, that allows the occupants to see the enjoyment of the kingdom from the outside looking in. Not like the rich man's suffering but rather the loss of not being able to participate in the enjoyment of the millennium with Christ. The wailing and gnashing of teeth brought on by a recounting of one's unwillingness to follow the Lord completely for what will certainly seem as petty things of this life compared with the glory of that time.

Also, there seems to be a scale of exclusion from the kingdom as indicated by the Lord's description "until the last farthing is paid".

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

Also, there seems to be a scale of exclusion from the kingdom as indicated by the Lord's description "until the last farthing is paid".

When you start talking about kingdom punishment being a matter of paying a debt off, you are pretty much in the teaching of Purgatory.

[Cassidy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

When you start talking about kingdom punishment being a matter of paying a debt off, you are pretty much in the teaching of Purgatory.

I don't agree with the teaching of Purgatory so that can't be true.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Cassidy

I don't agree with the teaching of Purgatory so that can't be true.

It could be true if you don't know what you are talking about.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

One thing we can be sure of, this guy was not an overcomer, yet he got to be with the Lord Jesus in Paradise. The apostle Paul clearly implied that when Christians die they get to "be with Christ".(Phil 1:23) This puts a little bit of a hitch in the teachings of Nee and Lee. It really doesn't make much sense (biblically or otherwise) that the 1,000 year Kingdom (if it is indeed literal) is going to be a place of punishment for all the little bad boys and girls who didn't live up to some arbitrary, man-made set of teachings and requirements. So they get to be in Paradise with Christ (possibly for thousands of years), then at the 2nd coming they get to spend 1,000 years gashing their teeth in the outer darkness of Nee/Lee's "Summer School"(a la Dan Towle, LSM chief eschatologist) This sounds more like an attempt to control people and keep people in fear and trembling of your group and it's leader than sound biblical teaching.

I hesitate to get involved in eschatological or theological issues because they don't interest me much. Specific verses do, however. Lee took most of his teachings on this subject from Panton and Govett, and I personally think much of their teaching is good.

UntoHim, your post highlights what does trouble me. First of all, Lee had to live up to his reputation as the last MOTA standing and the latest, greatest oracle of all by systematizing all eschatological events into charts and schedules which subsequently served only to puff up his adherents. Secondly, Lee used the matter of the overcomers to manipulate the saints for personal gain. Overcoming became part and parcel with being one with the ministry. Overcoming was determined by your relationship with LSM, and that held all in fear, so it's no wonder he could get away with murder when necessary.

In the context of endless debates with the Blendeds, Titus Chu made an interesting observation about eschatological events, which I thought was wise. He compared the Lord's return to DaVinci's Mona Lisa, with the saying, "either it inspires you or not." The point being that having all the teaching in the world about the Lord's return does nothing for you if it does not affect your life by inspiring you.