How Can This Forum Improve?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

First of all a hardy and heartfelt thanks to all who have participated on the Forum for the past year.
I'm opening up this thread for input and suggestions on how the Forum can be improved.

Hey, I really liked that thread discussing "becoming one flesh" and "becoming one spirit" by 7715. Do you have any more threads like that?

I'm a member of the LC; however, not very active currently due to personal responsibilities. I'm hoping to be more active in the future when time permits.

I have been reading this forum for a while. I find much of what is on here very informative. Regarding our past history, I had no idea what was happening behind the scenes until I stumbled on this site. I grew up the in LC and was fed all the "good" side of the LC. So I do appreciate seeing the other side of things. I am not stumbled by all this, but saddened.

Back to the question asked in this thread: "how to get more current LC members to post?" I think this forum *mostly* caters to non-members, ex-members, or members thinking about leaving. Of course members part of DCP will always look around here as well as part of their project.

Most current positive LC members will be reluctant to post because they feel this is a very negative site towards their own group that they dearly hold to. Regardless how *right* you may be about LC and Witness Lee's negative past, it does not necessarily mean all the local LCs are bad. The Roman Catholic Church as a whole has a very sad and negative history; however, that doesn't meant all Catholic Churches locally are bad have abusive authorities. There are many LC church members just minding their own business, enjoying their church life, and do not feel they are being controlled by LSM as some of you claim. I think many may be offended by the content on this site, regardless how truthful it may be. if you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

If you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

Current LC Member,
Thank you very much for your post!
Please consider registering, it will make participation a whole lot easier.

I hear what you are saying about "more balanced". The problem is that it's kind of a "catch 22" situation. The Forum will never seem balanced until some current members come and post! At various times I have posted an open invitation for current members to come and participate, and even become a moderator. This Forum was originally conceived as a venue for communication between current and former members and also the general public. It is very unfortunate that very few current LC members have chosen to take advantage of this forum.

We are very much aware that the Forum is being monitored by a number of Movement leaders, including those at the DCP. This is an OPEN FORUM and any of these brothers are more than welcome to come and register as a member and participate in the discussions. In fact I have sent emails to a number of LSM brothers inviting them to come participate in the Forum. I got ZERO response. Of course it doesn't help when certain LSM speakers discourage current LC members from even reading the Forum.

I will talk to the current Admin (Igzy) about posting another open invitation at the top of the page. He has some technical experience which may help in this matter.

Thanks again for posting and please consider registering and participating in the discussions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

I'm a member of the LC; however, not very active currently due to personal responsibilities. I'm hoping to be more active in the future when time permits.

I have been reading this forum for a while. I find much of what is on here very informative. Regarding our past history, I had no idea what was happening behind the scenes until I stumbled on this site. I grew up the in LC and was fed all the "good" side of the LC. So I do appreciate seeing the other side of things. I am not stumbled by all this, but saddened.

Back to the question asked in this thread: "how to get more current LC members to post?" I think this forum *mostly* caters to non-members, ex-members, or members thinking about leaving. Of course members part of DCP will always look around here as well as part of their project.

Most current positive LC members will be reluctant to post because they feel this is a very negative site towards their own group that they dearly hold to. Regardless how *right* you may be about LC and Witness Lee's negative past, it does not necessarily mean all the local LCs are bad. The Roman Catholic Church as a whole has a very sad and negative history; however, that doesn't meant all Catholic Churches locally are bad have abusive authorities. There are many LC church members just minding their own business, enjoying their church life, and do not feel they are being controlled by LSM as some of you claim. I think many may be offended by the content on this site, regardless how truthful it may be. if you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

Current LC Member, what you say is true. From time to time, however, we have had current members post on the forum speaking of their positive experiences, and refuting those of us who speak "negatively."

I found these LC forums in 2005 as the split between the Great Lakes area and Anaheim became immanent. I stumbled across the old Bereans forum while researching Brethren history. The Lord gave me the desire to study their history because it so paralleled our own. I still believe that understanding John Darby and the 19th century Brethren is crucial to really knowing Witness Lee and the Recovery.

I left the LC due to the abuse of authority in the leadership of my LC where I had served for many years. Too many bad habits were learned from Titus Chu when it came to how full-timers treated the brothers. It was shortly after I stopped serving that I found on-line and read John Ingall's account of the so-called "rebellion" of the late 80's, and I finally learned what really happened. Eventually I discovered that ministry abuses were systemic to the Recovery.

Today I have many friends and family in the various factions which exist in the aftermath of the recent quarantines in the Great Lakes area. Columbus, where I once lived, now has 3 LC's. Most other cities in the region now have 2 LC's, one favorable to Anaheim and one to Cleveland. Some places, or perhaps individual brothers, have distanced themselves from both headquarters. I am not here to tell any brother where and how to pursue the Lord.

But, Current LC Member, perhaps you have not witnessed the tragedy of current Recovery leaders using obscure Christian teachings and principles of now deceased ministers to steal and kill and destroy brothers and sisters in the various LC's around me. When all the infighting, backbiting, and hypocrisy was going on, I had no choice but to examine, perhaps for the first time, all the various teachings and practices unique to us. That is why I started posting here.

Hi Ohio,

Trust me. I have witnessed enough. And I don't doubt what you've experienced I never gave you my whole background. I came from the Great Lakes area, so I know what I saw. I even experienced it some of it first-hand.

My post above does not indicate that there are no abusive authorities at all in the LC. But that in situations where there is no storm, many Local Churches are not as described here. Of course there are many members that feel abused, but there are many more members who have not experienced what you described. Again going back to the thread: if you want more current members to participate in this forum, then you also have to consider those who have never seen this side. How can you convince them when they feel you are attacking them?

You don't need to convince me. But I'm speaking about the rest. The person who started this thread mentioned that they would like more current LC members to participate. But what's in it for them, those who have no idea and no experience of all that is posted on the forum? That's my question. Unless, the goal is to attract more current LC member who are already on the verge leaving organization.

One more reason why current members may be hesitant to participate (other than the negativity toward the LC organization) is that this site may be seen as not "kosher" by the leaders and many other. Maybe their conscience bothers them when they read this site. This site doesn't bother me, but I can see how it may bother many. Again, I'm looking at things from point of the view of current LC members.

[alwayslearning]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

. Again going back to the thread: if you want more current members to participate in this forum, then you also have to consider those who have never seen this side. How can you convince them when they feel you are attacking them?

But what's in it for them, those who have no idea and no experience of all that is posted on the forum? That's my question.

One more reason why current members may be hesitant to participate (other than the negativity toward the LC organization) is that this site may be seen as not "kosher" by the leaders and many other.

My question is: why wouldn't members have an idea of the history of the organization they are involved with? What's the big secret? Because it is purposely hidden by the coworkers and elders. It is covered up. They only want them to know the positive side of things. It's Pollyanna. When a church system cannot honestly tell both sides of their history that says a lot about them.

[Truth]

Thanks for inviting me to register. I am Current LC member, now registered as Truth.

I agree. All organizations should truthfully tell their history. However, you have to remember that the leaders' own view of their history is warped. So they think they are telling the truth when they are not. As an example, just look at the story of John Ingalls that perpetuates within the LC. If I hadn't know, I may have passed on the same story to others about how he was involved in a conspiracy. Now that we have the internet, we are all responsible for proper research before passing on falsehood.

[Cal]

Dear Truth,

Welcome!

I've seen these forums change over the years. Participants have grown and become more objective about their pasts. Four years ago you would have seen a lot of contention, sarcasm, arguments and outright accusation at the old BARM forum and even here. They updated the software at BARM and all the old posts went away. I don't know if those old posts were preserved anywhere. Some fretted about that, but honestly, some of those discussions were so contentious that it may have been a good thing that we started over here. There is more than enough content here now to make up for what was there.

We are learning as we are going. Some of us carried the pain of our LC past with us for years and only through these forums were able to deal with it. So a lot of festered pain was worked out in public. That's not the prettiest thing to see, but I think it was the only way for some.

We are seeing a new type of LCer on these forums. It used to be black and white: the angry, hurt ex-member versus the holier-than-thou, close-minded current member. Now we are starting to see current members who are more aware of the facts (thanks to the Internet maybe?), more open-minded, but still more or less happy in the LC.

To those I would say there is no reason their churches cannot go on successfully, but at the same time become friendlier members of the larger Christian community. It's the exclusive superiority complex of the LCs that needs to be dropped, and what is killing them. Now, I know initially LCers have a hard time seeing themselves as exclusive, because they've been taught to play these mental games about "standing for all believers." But the fact is if you say only your group deserves the description of "church," you are exclusive. Period.

But we are here to help people realize these things, and we are not above learning ourselves. We are all growing together, and whether we like it or not (and I think we all like it, at least in theory) the Lord still wants us to arrive at the unity of the faith.

Igzy

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

My post above does not indicate that there are no abusive authorities at all in the LC. But that in situations where there is no storm, many Local Churches are not as described here. Of course there are many members that feel abused, but there are many more members who have not experienced what you described. Again going back to the thread: if you want more current members to participate in this forum, then you also have to consider those who have never seen this side. How can you convince them when they feel you are attacking them?

You don't need to convince me. But I'm speaking about the rest. The person who started this thread mentioned that they would like more current LC members to participate. But what's in it for them, those who have no idea and no experience of all that is posted on the forum? That's my question. Unless, the goal is to attract more current LC member who are already on the verge leaving organization.

Current LC member, the Recovery has lost much of its standing as a testimony of Jesus. This forum provides some recent history and unique insider insight into the events which caused this to occur. The information here will not be for those members who are content with an exclusive diet of WL's teachings, regurgitated by the Blendeds, whoever they are. Those however who have nagging questions about its vast claims and its broken promises, like I did, mind find some valuable help here.

One way to attract LC members is by providing a non-confrontational environment. We definitely don't all agree with everything, but do endeavor to treat one another with Christian civility and respect. We left an environment where expressing heart-felt opinions was outlawed, and consequently the leadership existed without healthy and scriptural boundaries. As a result, many were hurt, and many more have left. Here, perhaps for the first time, they can discuss the issues which have bothered them.

[Truth]

Ohio, the purpose of attracting current LC members is much more clear to me now. It looks like you would like to provide a forum where current members who have issues with the LC but may not be able to voice within the organization.

I am more or less content with the LC I am in right now. However, I was interested in this site not so much because I have any issues with the LC as it is, but I really like hearing and discussing the other side of the LC history. As a member of the LC, to me it is important to know the truth behind the history.

I think one reason why the LC likes to hide history may be due to the influence of the Chinese culture. Typically, the Chinese (as a nation and individually) do not like bring up the past if it is negative. Instead of admitting to wrongs, they tend to pretend things never happened. Witness Lee was Chinese, I'm sure this hiding thing is very much a part of who he was. Though at the end of his life, he did admit to mistakes he's made publicly, but still very general, no specific details.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Truth

Ohio, the purpose of attracting current LC members is much more clear to me now. It looks like you would like to provide a forum where current members who have issues with the LC but may not be able to voice within the organization.

I am more or less content with the LC I am in right now. However, I was interested in this site not so much because I have any issues with the LC as it is, but I really like hearing and discussing the other side of the LC history. As a member of the LC, to me it is important to know the truth behind the history.

I think one reason why the LC likes to hide history may be due to the influence of the Chinese culture. Typically, the Chinese (as a nation and individually) do not like bring up the past if it is negative. Instead of admitting to wrongs, they tend to pretend things never happened. Witness Lee was Chinese, I'm sure this hiding thing is very much a part of who he was. Though at the end of his life, he did admit to mistakes he's made publicly, but still very general, no specific details.

Apparently another part of Chinese culture is to protect one's children above all. It was common knowledge among LC workers and SoCal elders that "to touch Phillip is to touch Witness Lee himself." Perhaps WL's most serious error was to employ his profligate son as Office Manager, and then to protect him at all cost. Many a precious brother was sacrificed to preserve the Lee legacy.

I liken the recent scandal at Penn State to what happened at LSM years ago. Like the venerable JoePa, Brother Lee was never himself accused of sexual impropriety, but did orchestrate coverups which allowed problems to go on unchecked for years while more innocent victims were hurt. The facts have now proven that both knowingly lied, and used their reputations to subdue others in authority. Both WL and JoePA used their overly-elevated status of power and authority to silence all who brought sordid accusations against their "house" which in any way might damage their pristine images. In the end both suffered great loss by sacrificing righteousness and integrity for short term gains.

As one writer has said, "Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!", and Another who said, "What you have whispered in secret, shall be shouted from the housetops."

[Indiana]

Originally Posted by Truth

Ohio, the purpose of attracting current LC members is much more clear to me now. It looks like you would like to provide a forum where current members who have issues with the LC but may not be able to voice within the organization.

I am more or less content with the LC I am in right now. However, I was interested in this site not so much because I have any issues with the LC as it is, but I really like hearing and discussing the other side of the LC history. As a member of the LC, to me it is important to know the truth behind the history.

I think one reason why the LC likes to hide history may be due to the influence of the Chinese culture. Typically, the Chinese (as a nation and individually) do not like bring up the past if it is negative. Instead of admitting to wrongs, they tend to pretend things never happened. Witness Lee was Chinese, I'm sure this hiding thing is very much a part of who he was. Though at the end of his life, he did admit to mistakes he's made publicly, but still very general, no specific details.

Whoever this brother is may he keep speaking. More voices like his need to be heard that come from within the Local Churches. On this particular point of Chinese culture influencing the leaders' hiding of LC history, the subject has yet to be addressed in full and with the impact needed to draw attention from where these deeply-rooted concepts thrive, in their strongholds of both Anaheim and Cleveland.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Current LC Member

Back to the question asked in this thread: "how to get more current LC members to post?" I think this forum *mostly* caters to non-members, ex-members, or members thinking about leaving. Of course members part of DCP will always look around here as well as part of their project.

Most current positive LC members will be reluctant to post because they feel this is a very negative site towards their own group that they dearly hold to. Regardless how *right* you may be about LC and Witness Lee's negative past, it does not necessarily mean all the local LCs are bad. The Roman Catholic Church as a whole has a very sad and negative history; however, that doesn't meant all Catholic Churches locally are bad have abusive authorities. There are many LC church members just minding their own business, enjoying their church life, and do not feel they are being controlled by LSM as some of you claim. I think many may be offended by the content on this site, regardless how truthful it may be. if you would like more current LC members to participate, my suggestion is for the discussion here to be more balanced. It needs to be more sympathetic towards current members. I understand that you are attacking the "LC system" and leaders and not the people; however people still may perceive that they are being attacked. Why would someone want to participate in a forum that is hostile towards them? Anyways, just my 2 cents.

I think part of the problem is being able to set aside subjective feelings and being able to absorb different writings (Fermentation of the Present Rebellion, Speaking the Truth in Love, Bill Mallon's letter to Witness Lee, John So's report, David Wang writing on the Church in Rosemead) objectively. To do so equates to attacking the recovery.
How can you examine the past and have it not be considered an attack?
If this question can be answered, then I think there will be away to engage current local church members in dialogue.