I love the local church

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

Nobody from CFP has ever declared that Stephen Kaung is the Minister of the Age, God's Oracle on the earth, or the Acting God.

Is your problem the few phrases? If it is, blame the speaker of the word, not the publisher? LSM publishes everything spoken by a few brothers. So, it has to publish everything spoken, irrespective of whether it is right or wrong.

Just because LSM publishes something or Br. Lee speaks something does not make it divine or infallible. We all have our spirits to discern right and wrong. I have a spirit which lets me know what to accept and reject. So, I accept the many, many publications by LSM which I feel is good. If there are any publications I cannot agree with or I think are incorrect, I reject it.
[Solomon wrote the Song of Songs and went astray. But, that does not mean the Song of Songs is bad. Similarly, Peter disowned the Lord and separated himself from Gentiles when the Jews arrived. But, I cannot reject the books of Peter.]

And, if you want my views on the phrases, 'The Minister of the Age' is something I do not agree with. No one can be uniquely ministering, esp. when even the apostles had to work together.
'God's oracle' does not bother me because I understand oracle to mean someone who speaks/communicates God's word. So, most teachers of the Bible are oracles of God. Even when I prophesy, if I am speaking Christ, I am an oracle of God.
I have not heard the phrase 'acting God' directly though I had heard about it. So, I read the context in which it was said.
In my opinion, Br. Ron could have avoided the phrase to avoid offending others. But, I am personally not offended because I understand the context of the usage very well. Acting God means acting for God just as Paul was acting/speaking for God in 1 Cor 7:10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord)

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

None of the groups getting help from Stephen Kaung, neither individually, nor collectively have ever called themselves 'The Lord's Recovery,' or 'God's Move on the Earth,' ...

Is your problem with the terms 'Lord's Recovery' or 'Lord's Move'?
How is it worser than 'Assembly of God', 'Church of God', or the so many other names?

Originally Posted by Paul Cox

... while at the time taking every opportunity to demean and find fault with everything that is not them. No one person or group of people who stopped fellowshiping with the Assemblies were said to have left God's Best, and no one who ever dared to speak contrary to them has been called inspired by Satan, rebellious or any such thing.

And, regarding people who are not in the Lord's Recovery, I defer to Br. Lee's word in LIFE-STUDY OF MARK MESSAGE TWENTY-NINE(not because Br. Lee's words are divine but because I felt that Br. Lee has explained it well)
In 9:38 John said to the Lord Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name who does not follow us, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” The remainder of this chapter is given over to the Lord’s teaching concerning tolerance for the sake of unity, a teaching given in response to John’s statement in verse 38.We need to see that if we forbid others in the way John did in verse 38, this indicates that we consider ourselves greater than others. Furthermore, when we forbid others, thinking ourselves to be greater, we also cause others to stumble. While we are causing others to stumble, we are also causing ourselves to stumble. The evil one may use the members of our body—the hand, the foot, or the eye—to express lust and cause us to stumble. We need to be very careful regarding this.
We should not consider ourselves great. Instead, we need to realize that we are nobody and nothing. If we have this realization, we shall pray. For us to pray indicates that we realize that we are nothing and that we can do nothing. We need another One—Christ Himself—to replace us.
If we do not consider ourselves to be someone great, someone greater than others, we shall not cause others to stumble. But if we think that we are great, we shall cause others to stumble. At the same time, we shall open the gate for the enemy to use the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.
The members of our body, especially the eyes, are lustful. If we cause others to stumble by considering ourselves greater than they are, we may have a wicked eye. Then the way will be open for the enemy to utilize the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.

[SavedbyGrace]

@ rayliotta

I understand the background and agree you may be right in your beliefs because of your experiences. My experience from reading Br. Lee's writings is not same as yours and I am happy.

And, I oppose Christianity as a system too. It is the same as the Pharisees turning the commandments into a 'system'. If you want to argue even the Lord's Recovery has become a system, I would agree that it may be true in some local churches (but not everywhere). But, I also agree with Br. Lee that the 'system'/'religion' of Christianity is incorrect.

Similarly, I agree that the Lord's Recovery is unfortunately, becoming a denomination. But, I also agree with Br. Lee that denominations are bad.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Absolutely. I would ask two questions about CFP. Are there any churches, anywhere in the world, with book stores, excuse me, book rooms, that only sell books published by CFP?

Is there any kind of two-year school, excuse me, training, where all course materials are published by CFP?

How does having book rooms or training centres make a difference? There are so many Bible Colleges out there. Are they 'all' bad?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

How does having book rooms or training centres make a difference? There are so many Bible Colleges out there. Are they 'all' bad?

It's not about being "bad". It's about a network of hundreds of churches -- or is it thousands? -- around the world, each with its own tidy bookroom devoted entirely to the publications of one particular publishing company. Exclusive of any other publishing companies.

And, the publishing company runs a school, which uses exclusively its own publications for all courses. And actively seeks to establish new training centers around the world, to use solely their own materials.

I would like to know of any other Christian publishing company that is supported by an exclusive network of franchise churches. Seriously, can someone tell us of even one other?

There is one that comes to mind, the initials of the group are JW. And I'm pretty sure they ain't a member of the "Evangelical Christian Publishers Association"...

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

It's not about being "bad". It's about a network of hundreds of churches -- or is it thousands? -- around the world, each with its own tidy bookroom devoted entirely to the publications of one particular publishing company. Exclusive of any other publishing companies.

And, the publishing company runs a school, which uses exclusively its own publications for all courses. And actively seeks to establish new training centers around the world, to use solely their own materials.

I would like to know of any other Christian publishing company that is supported by an exclusive network of franchise churches. Seriously, can someone tell us of even one other?

There is one that comes to mind, the initials of the group are JW. And I'm pretty sure they ain't a member of the "Evangelical Christian Publishers Association"...

The Gospel Book Room was started by Br. Nee, though I understand it published books by various authors. But, the Gospel Book Room extablished by Br. Nee was supposed to be in sync with the local churches.
Anyways, the content is what should matter.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

The Gospel Book Room was started by Br. Nee, though I understand it published books by various authors. But, the Gospel Book Room extablished by Br. Nee was supposed to be in sync with the local churches.
Anyways, the content is what should matter.

One issue we used to have with the book room is that saints felt pressured to buy their books there instead of other book stores. Now with the internet and ebooks I find this concern to be very overblown.

A second issue was that churches were pressured into having large standing orders for books that no one would buy, they would stack up in boxes, and then every year they would clear out the store room with a sale, book for 0.99, 0.25, etc. Once you do that once no one wants to pay full price anymore. The elders chose to go with the standing order lest the church lose standing among other churches. I feel this was the result of having spineless elders.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

One issue we used to have with the book room is that saints felt pressured to buy their books there instead of other book stores. Now with the internet and ebooks I find this concern to be very overblown.

A second issue was that churches were pressured into having large standing orders for books that no one would buy, they would stack up in boxes, and then every year they would clear out the store room with a sale, book for 0.99, 0.25, etc. Once you do that once no one wants to pay full price anymore. The elders chose to go with the standing order lest the church lose standing among other churches. I feel this was the result of having spineless elders.

The saints in my local church regularly subscribe for the HWMR. For the rest of the books, they either borrow from each other or use the soft copy which available without paying any money

[Cal]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

And, I oppose Christianity as a system too. It is the same as the Pharisees turning the commandments into a 'system'. If you want to argue even the Lord's Recovery has become a system, I would agree that it may be true in some local churches (but not everywhere). But, I also agree with Br. Lee that the 'system'/'religion' of Christianity is incorrect.

Nowhere does the Bible condemn systems per se. Everything is a system. LSM is a system, your local church is a system. Even the Body of Christ is a system. It's just the Lord's system. If I study the Bible systematically, that's a system. Since when is that a bad thing?

"System" is one of those bugaboo words that Lee set us against. The question is not whether something is a system, because everything is. The question is what kind of system is it and is it compatible with the Holy Spirit.

Being against "systems" allows you to condemn Christianity as a system, but exempt your own movement from being one, even though both are.

Like I said, the Bible doesn't condemn systems. Ephesians 4:14 condemns a "system of error," but that's "of error."

Condemning systems for being systems is just sloppy thinking.

[Cal]

Every Christian movement and group is some kind of system. They just have different rules and expected behaviors. But the LRC is no different than any other Christian organization in that respect. Just because a group has the Holy Spirit doesn't mean it is not a system. And just because it's a system does not exempt the Holy Spirit. God made us with a tendency to develop systems. That's how we stay organized and know, more or less, what to expect from day to day. What, are we supposed to be utterly spontaneous in every respect? You have scheduled meeting times, right? That's a system. You organize your day, correct? That's a system, too.

I could go on, but I hope I've made my point.

[Ohio]

... while at the time taking every opportunity to demean and find fault with everything that is not them. No one person or group of people who stopped fellowshipping with the Assemblies were said to have left God's Best, and no one who ever dared to speak contrary to them has been called inspired by Satan, rebellious or any such thing.

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

And, regarding people who are not in the Lord's Recovery, I defer to Br. Lee's word in LIFE-STUDY OF MARK MESSAGE TWENTY-NINE.

In 9:38 John said to the Lord Jesus, “Teacher, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name who does not follow us, and we forbade him, because he was not following us.” The remainder of this chapter is given over to the Lord’s teaching concerning tolerance for the sake of unity, a teaching given in response to John’s statement in verse 38. We need to see that if we forbid others in the way John did in verse 38, this indicates that we consider ourselves greater than others. Furthermore, when we forbid others, thinking ourselves to be greater, we also cause others to stumble. While we are causing others to stumble, we are also causing ourselves to stumble. The evil one may use the members of our body—the hand, the foot, or the eye—to express lust and cause us to stumble. We need to be very careful regarding this.

We should not consider ourselves great. Instead, we need to realize that we are nobody and nothing. If we have this realization, we shall pray. For us to pray indicates that we realize that we are nothing and that we can do nothing. We need another One—Christ Himself—to replace us.

If we do not consider ourselves to be someone great, someone greater than others, we shall not cause others to stumble. But if we think that we are great, we shall cause others to stumble. At the same time, we shall open the gate for the enemy to use the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.

The members of our body, especially the eyes, are lustful. If we cause others to stumble by considering ourselves greater than they are, we may have a wicked eye. Then the way will be open for the enemy to utilize the lust in our members to cause us to stumble.

SavedbyGrace, in response to Paul Cox's post, you did not address his complaint at all. You quoted a section by WL about "considering ourselves to be great." That may be somewhat related, but it misses the mark. WL's commentary misses the mark also.

Paul Cox mentioned how LC leaders condemn outsiders and former members. It is this derogatory speech and recorded condemnations which he referred to, not the inner attitude of the leaders. In Mark 8.39, Jesus never addressed the attitude of the disciple, probably John, the son of thunder, but his actions in forbidding others who were not with "following us." Jesus then commented on his reasons for forbidding -- that they will not speak evil of the Lord, and thus are really "for us."

WL apparently skipped this matter and brought in his own agenda. Your post does the same.

I prefer not to assume what people think about themselves. I have no way to know. That is between them and the Lord. Jesus alone is the Knower of hearts and the judge of all. I prefer only to discuss what LC leaders do and say, and what they do and say to those outside their circle of fellowship is truly atrocious.

[SavedbyGrace]

Originally Posted by Ohio

SavedbyGrace, in response to Paul Cox's post, you did not address his complaint at all. You quoted a section by WL about "considering ourselves to be great." That may be somewhat related, but it misses the mark. WL's commentary misses the mark also.

Paul Cox mentioned how LC leaders condemn outsiders and former members. It is this derogatory speech and recorded condemnations which he referred to, not the inner attitude of the leaders. In Mark 8.39, Jesus never addressed the attitude of the disciple, probably John, the son of thunder, but his actions in forbidding others who were not with "following us." Jesus then commented on his reasons for forbidding -- that they will not speak evil of the Lord, and thus are really "for us."

WL apparently skipped this matter and brought in his own agenda. Your post does the same.

I prefer not to assume what people think about themselves. I have no way to know. That is between them and the Lord. Jesus alone is the Knower of hearts and the judge of all. I prefer only to discuss what LC leaders do and say, and what they do and say to those outside their circle of fellowship is truly atrocious.

I don't know what agenda you are talking about. In the portion I quoted from Life Study of Mark Chapter 29, Br. Lee asks the readers not to consider themselves greater than other believers. So, as per Br. Lee, we should not consider ourselves greater than others. If we do, we will stumble and cause others to stumble.

I cannot worry about what brothers do in some locality I am not in. Those brothers have to answer to the Lord if they do something which is against the Lord's will. I can just point you to what I believe is the correct approach.

Below is some portion from Life Study of Mark Chapter 28.

We have pointed out that in 9:38 John told the Lord Jesus that they saw someone casting out demons in His name who did not follow them, and they forbade him, because he was not following them. It seems that John was saying, “This man was casting out demons in Your name, Lord. Yet, he would not follow us. He is divisive, sectarian. Because he causes trouble, we forbade him to cast out demons in Your name. I told him that either he should come along with us, or he should stop casting out demons in Your name.”

In this situation could John say that he was living Christ, that now it was no longer he, but Christ? Certainly not. Had John been terminated by Christ’s death, and had His resurrection been wrought into him? Not at all! In 9:38 John was still a natural son of thunder. He was still in himself, even in an enlarged self. When the Lord was speaking to the disciples concerning humility, John even went on in verse 38 to change the subject.

The Lord’s reply in verse 39 must have come as a great surprise to John: “Do not forbid him, for there is no one who shall do a work of power in My name and be able soon to speak evil of Me.” Here the Lord Jesus was saying to John, “You should not forbid him. He is not against Me; rather, he is for Me. All the believers are mine.”

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SavedbyGrace

Below is some portion from Life Study of Mark Chapter 28.

We have pointed out that in 9:38 John told the Lord Jesus that they saw someone casting out demons in His name who did not follow them, and they forbade him, because he was not following them. It seems that John was saying, “This man was casting out demons in Your name, Lord. Yet, he would not follow us. He is divisive, sectarian. Because he causes trouble, we forbade him to cast out demons in Your name. I told him that either he should come along with us, or he should stop casting out demons in Your name.”

In this situation could John say that he was living Christ, that now it was no longer he, but Christ? Certainly not. Had John been terminated by Christ’s death, and had His resurrection been wrought into him? Not at all! In 9:38 John was still a natural son of thunder. He was still in himself, even in an enlarged self. When the Lord was speaking to the disciples concerning humility, John even went on in verse 38 to change the subject.

The Lord’s reply in verse 39 must have come as a great surprise to John: “Do not forbid him, for there is no one who shall do a work of power in My name and be able soon to speak evil of Me.” Here the Lord Jesus was saying to John, “You should not forbid him. He is not against Me; rather, he is for Me. All the believers are mine.”

SavedByGrace, when WL and today's Blendeds repeatedly condemn all of "poor, poor Christianity" as being hopelessly and helplessly degraded, does any brother stand up and repeat WL's harsh criticism of the Apostle John back at him? ...

"In this situation could Witness Lee say that he was living Christ, that now it was no longer he, but Christ? Certainly not. Had Witness Lee been terminated by Christ’s death, and had His resurrection been wrought into him? Not at all! Here Witness Lee is still a natural son of thunder. He was still in himself, even in an enlarged self. When the Lord was speaking to the disciples concerning humility, Witness Lee even went on to change the subject."