The Psalms are the word of Christ

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

And what about the compilers of the Psalms? Why did they put Psalm 1 first? To show us what not to be? Or were they as confused as David, with their natural concepts? If so, then why did God allow all these confused people to write and then compile the Psalms? I suspect that there are depths there, beyond the initial "natural concept" level, and those depths contain Christ. Just because Mr. Lee didn't see Jesus the Nazarene in all those Psalms, it doesn't mean Jesus isn't there, vividly portrayed. It just means that Mr. Lee didn't see Him.

Great points!

Today I still marvel at the arrogance I once participated in. We were instructed to pick apart books like the Psalms, Job, or James without a second thought, yet never would we dare to examine the books and messages of Lee under the same scrutiny.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I ... marvel at the arrogance I once participated in. We were instructed to pick apart books like the Psalms, Job, or James without a second thought, yet never would we dare to examine the books and messages of Lee under the same scrutiny.

We did so because that's what we saw. Monkey see, monkey do. Remember that once we were infants, babes in Christ, and we would imitate whomever seemed to be before us in the race.

Just like children, who will unquestioningly mimic their parents speech, behaviors, and biases. But eventually we must grow into adults and take responsibility for our own thoughts, feelings, and actions. And for our own biblical interpretation.

What I marvel at is that it took me so long to be able to look at the Bible without "Witness Lee glasses" on. I have not been meeting with his "churches" for 15 years. Only in the last couple of years could I read the Bible without the "God's economy" template dominating my dialog with God in His word. Today I, and we, can scrutinize Lee's "natural concepts" just as Lee examined those of James, David the psalmist, and Job.

[aron]

Today there is widespread agreement that the Psalms prefigured the coming Christ. Psalm 2, Psalm 8, Psalm 16, Psalm 22, Psalm 91, Psalm 110 are heavily quoted in the New Testament, for example.

But when Paul twice (Col 3:16, Eph 5:19) urged the saints to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly as they sang psalms, singing praise to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, do you think he was thinking of limiting them to those few? I don't get any indication of that. What about all the other chapters, which Lee passed over without mention, other than that they are "natural"? Do you think Paul had the same judgment, the same caveat? I don't get that impression.

Do you think, when the Psalmist wrote "In the midst of the assembly I will sing hymns of praise to you", that this applies only when we sing Lee's "revelation of Christ" psalms? That Christ will not/cannot join us if we sing the "natural concept" psalms? Child, please.

I personally think the psalms are much deeper and more revelatory of Christ than Lee realized. It is not that the Psalms are lacking the revelation of Christ, but that Lee was lacking the revelation of Christ. Which brings the next question: why? How could a man who teased images of Christ from the badger skins and silver sockets on the ark of the covenant, and from the windows on Noah's ark, not see Christ there in so many of the Psalms?

I think it is two-fold. First, he had a bias against the "law" by Paul's expositions (see Galatians 2, Romans 7, etc). So when the psalmist expressed a love for the law, Lee recoiled instinctively. The voices of Paul the apostle and Martin Luther the expositor shouted "No!!!" within him. This prevented him from seeking, or seeing, any Christ there.

Secondly, the man clearly had control issues. When the saints actually began to take the apostle Paul at his word and sing the Psalms, "As the hart panteth after the water brooks/so panteth my soul after Thee, O God", then Lee got worried because they were enjoying the Word outside his ministry and this to him was most dangerous. Lee wanted to be the sole mediator of man's revelatory experience in the Word of God. So Lee told the fellowships in the Lord's Recovery to stop singing the Psalms, because they were too low. I have heard this verbally from several people who were there.

He didn't, of course, say "Stop singing the Psalms"; he said, "It would be better if you sang verses from Ephesians than from Psalms". Then he imitated in a mocking way the saints as they praised God using the words of the psalmist. His "shaming" actions were enough to discourage the saints.

So Witness Lee was willing to directly contravene Paul's encouragement, if Paul's encouragement led to a loss of his (Lee's) control. The Spirit was starting to move among the assemblies, and it was moving away from Lee's dominion, and this probably threatened him. Loss of control could not be tolerated. So he stopped it.

And the "spirit of wisdom and revelation" which Paul asked for in Ephesians 1:17 got frustrated. The psalms then were declared to be the "natural concepts of men", versus revelatory pictures of the persecuted, praying, believing, hoping, trusting, declaring, thirsty, hungry, stricken, suffering, fighting, struggling Jesus the Nazarene. "Oh, that's just David (or Asaph, or Lemuel, etc) trying to be good." No, that is Jesus fulfilling the destiny of humankind. That is none other than the "Savior of the world" (1 John 4:14) revealed in detail far beyond Lee's capacity to see.

[aron]

Unfortunately I have little expertise on the theology of 'the law versus grace'. Paul's epistle to the Romans presents challenging arguments to me, as are his expositions elsewhere, such as in the book of Galatians. I give this disclaimer lest anyone think I am holding forth some "truth" which I think should apply universally. Rather, what follow are just some comments on Jesus the Nazarene as seen in Psalm 1.

1 Blessed is the one
who does not walk in step with the wicked
or stand in the way that sinners take
or sit in the company of mockers,
2 but whose delight is in the law of the LORD,
and who meditates on his law day and night.
3 That person is like a tree planted by streams of water,
which yields its fruit in season
and whose leaf does not wither—
whatever they do prospers.

Now, as imitators of Paul, and as followers of Martin Luther, we reject the notion of being saved by the law. Salvation is by grace, by the gift of faith.

But perhaps there was One who delighted in the law of the LORD, whose heart was pure, who received God's word as it was intended: as His Spirit, truth, wisdom, light, counsel, food, encouragement, power, and life. So this One stepped fully into the reality of what the prophets and psalmists had hoped for. We the failed, the hopeless, the fallen, see this overcoming One and we live.

Now, let's look at Psalm 1, and see the One who "meditates on God's law day and night". In Matthew 22, Jesus was asked, "Which is the greatest of the commandments?". Jesus responded with Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18. Those passages could be seen as just obscure "riders" in a legal document. Leviticus 19:18, I believe, is dealing with the context of a neighbor's wandering cow. But Jesus saw the reality behind the law. Jesus didn't overturn the law, He fulfilled it (Matt 5:17). Paul also says this. "The law is spiritual" (Rom 7:14) ... the problem is not the law, but our inability to keep it.

"We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." But jesus was not unspiritual. So the law was to Him a completely different animal than to we the fallen. We should not see the Psalms as "natural concepts" of David (or Witness Lee) but as Jesus saw them. They were the framework for His dialog with the Father.

So when you see the psalmist expressing love for the law of God, think about Jesus and His Father. As I said, these are merely the ruminations of a sinner trying to follow Jesus back home to the Father. "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet", and this seems to include the Psalms, much more than we were hitherto led to believe.

[aron]

As I said, Witness Lee got bothered by the ministries in God's word which sprang up in the "local churches" by singing the Psalms. Several gifted musicians started doing things in the Word which the saints loved, and picked up on. This was a movement "in the churches" which hadn't been sanctioned and directed by Lee the Oracle and Apostle of the age, so it was squelched. People were passing around music cassettes which didn't have "Living Stream Ministry" on them. Lee wanted full control.

Now, what is the consequence of this attempt at man to direct the move of God on the earth? The Spirit was frustrated. The word was closed. The light was turned off.

The fruit of this was evident, a year ago, when I looked at their music catalog. When I looked at their various merchandise being sold, among music there were no psalms. They once had them for sale (i.e. the 1970s, 1980s), but now they were gone. Those gifted and anointed saints were silenced, and evidence of their ministry had disappeared. One could purchase hymns, footnotes set to music, and outlines, and some verses. But no psalms.

And the top of the page selling this stuff quoted the verse with Paul's admonition to sing psalms! Too ironic. This is what happens when the lights turn off.

[VoiceInWilderness]

Aron,
Great thread.
I am slowly going thru the Psalms and making songs of them so I can memorize them by singing them. I get a lot from them. They are both practical and spiritual. I haven't found any word in them which is not God's word. I've done Psalms 1-28 and others non-consecutively after that.
They're at http://www.voiceinwilderness.info/psalms.htm

Brother Lee had this damaging concept of the Psalms early on and it bore ugly fruit later in his ministry. The result was that you couldn't trust the Bible, only W.Lee's expounding of it.

Here is W. Lee's expounding of 1 Peter 3 where Peter quotes Ps 34. It is good. It was published in 1986, so it was given before 1986. Following that I have quoted W. Lee's exposition of Ps 34, the same verses as in Peter, published in 1996. It speaks for itself: In his later years, W. Lee was far more arrogant than I ever remembered. He puts his ministry above the Bible. Not only does he say that Psalm 34 is unspiritual, but belittles the NT apostle Peter for quoting the Psalm. Also the interpretation he puts on David's words is low. Besides that, Paul and Jesus said the same things as Ps 34.

W. Lee's msg on 1 Peter 3 where Peter quotes Ps 34
IN COMMON LIFE
In 3:8-13 Peter speaks of the Christian life and its sufferings with respect to common life. Verse 8 says, "And finally, be all of the same mind, sympathetic, loving the brothers, tenderhearted, humble minded." This verse is filled with good terms. Paul also uses such terms, but he does not put them together the way Peter does. Verse 9 continues, "Not rendering evil for evil, or reviling for reviling, but on the contrary blessing, because to this you were called that you might inherit blessing." In the first part of this verse "blessing" is not a noun as the object of "rendering"; instead, it is a participle, meaning "be blessing." When others revile us, we should not revile them in return. On the contrary, we should bless them. Peter's word here corresponds to what the Lord Jesus says in Matthew 5:44 and to what Paul says in Romans 12:14. In verse 9 we are told that we have been called that we might inherit blessing. We have been called to bless others, so we, as a blessed people, should always bless others that we might inherit blessing. What we bless others with, we shall inherit ourselves (Matt. 10:13). Of course, the blessing here is not material. According to the context, the blessing refers to life, indicating that we shall inherit more
life.

In verse 10 Peter continues, "For he who is desiring to love life and see good days, let him cause his tongue to cease from evil and his lips to speak no guile." Good days are days of good, referring to good things as blessing. If we would see such good days, we should cause our tongue to cease from evil and our lips to speak no guile. Concerning this, Christ is a pattern for us to follow. In 2:22 Peter tells us that Christ "did no sin, nor was guile found in His mouth." But our lips and tongue cause much trouble. Many negative things have resulted from the improper use of our tongue and lips. In verse 11 Peter speaks of turning from evil, doing good, and seeking and pursuing peace. In verse 12 he says that the eyes of the Lord are on the righteous and His ears are unto their petition, but His face is against those who do evil. Then in verse 13 Peter says, "And who will harm you if you become zealots of good?" According to this verse, we should not only be zealous of good; we should become zealots of good. The word "zealots" denotes a particular kind of person. We all should become zealots of good.

Now, here is his msg on Psalm 34.
Judge it for yourself

X. IN BLESSING AND PRAISING GOD
Psalm 34 shows us the mixed expressions of the psalmist’s sentiment in his enjoyment of God in God’s house in blessing and praising God. To bless God is to speak well about God, to talk about God in a good way. To praise God is to give the honor and the glory to God.

A. Written After David Disguised Himself as Being Insane before Abimelech It is good to bless and praise God, but we should not forget that such a wonderful psalm was written after David put on a ‘‘mask.’’ He wrote this psalm after he disguised himself as being insane before Abimelech. This story is recorded in 1 Samuel 21:10-15. There David disguised himself before this Philistine king in order to escape from being killed.

B. Because of God’s Answer and Deliverance David blessed and praised God because of God’s answer and deliverance (vv. 1-6). In verse 1 he said, ‘‘I will bless Jehovah at all times; / His praise will continually be in my mouth.’’ This is good, but we have to remember the situation in which David said this. When he disguised himself before Abimelech, he surely was not blessing God at that time. Instead, 1 Samuel 21:13 says that David scrabbled on the doors of the gate and let his spittle fall down upon his beard to make Abimelech think that he was insane. Verses 2-6 say, ‘‘My soul makes its boast in Jehovah; / The lowly hear and they rejoice. / Magnify Jehovah with me, / And let us exalt His name together. / I sought Jehovah, and He answered me; / And He delivered me from all that terrified me. / They looked to Him and were radiant; / And their faces will never be abashed. / This poor man called out, and Jehovah heard; / And He saved him out of all his troubles.’’

David said that Jehovah delivered him. But I would like to ask whether he was delivered out of the hand of Abimelech by Jehovah or whether he delivered himself. People may pray for a number of things, and then give all the credit to God when they are done. Actually, however, God did not do any one of them. Instead, they prayed according to their own desire, and they did it on their own. Sometimes they might have even done something in a way to cheat people, but God surely did not cheat people for them. We may pray for something, get what we prayed for, and then give the credit to God. This is an insult to God. In this case the credit should not go to God but to us to become a debit.

C. Advising and Teaching Others to Fear God and Take Refuge in Him Verses 7-22 show us David’s advising and teaching others to fear God and take refuge in Him. In verse 8 David said, ‘‘Blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him.’’ However, when David disguised himself in front of that king, he did not take refuge in Jehovah but in his ‘‘mask,’’ in his disguising himself. In verse 11 David said, ‘‘Come, children; hear me. / I will teach you the fear of Jehovah.’’ Do we want David to teach us to disguise ourselves, to put on a mask? This shows that on the one hand, we may trust in the Lord; on the other hand, we may put on a mask to deliver ourselves. Eventually, who saved us----the Lord or our mask?

1. The Goodness of Fearing God and Taking Refuge in Him In Psalm 34 David spoke of the goodness of fearing God and taking refuge in Him (vv. 7-10, 17-22). Verse 10 says, ‘‘The young lions hunger and starve, / But those who seek Jehovah will not lack any good thing.’’ People may quote these verses for their personal benefit but eventually end up lacking the material things they desire. Second Corinthians tells us that Paul passed through much suffering and deprivation, even to the extent that he was lacking food and clothing (11:27).

2. The Way to Fear God In Psalm 34 David spoke of the way to fear God (vv. 11-16; 1 Pet. 3:10-12). Verses 12-16 say, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good? / Guard your tongue from evil, / And your lips from speaking deceit. / Turn away from evil and do good; / Seek peace and pursue it. / The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry. / The face of Jehovah is against those who do evil, / To cut off the memory of them from the earth.’’ These verses were quoted by Peter in 1 Peter 3:10-12, but Paul did not quote such a word. Paul’s vision of the New Testament economy was clearer than that of all the other apostles.

When David asked, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good?’’ he was not talking about the eternal life but about the physical life. David was a great saint in the Old Testament, and Peter was one of the great apostles in the New Testament, but I do not believe that what David said here is spiritual. Even among us, who dares ask the Lord to give him long days that he may enjoy many good things?

David said that if we love having days in order to see good, we should guard our tongue from evil and our lips from speaking deceit. But who has ever succeeded in guarding his tongue from evil? What David spoke here was according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Verse 15 says, ‘‘The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry.’’ But who is righteous on this earth? Paul said that not one is righteous (Rom. 3:10), and Isaiah said that our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). If we depend upon our righteousness to enjoy God’s eyes and ears being set toward us, we will enjoy nothing, because we have no righteousness of our own.

Concerning the righteous man, David said, ‘‘He keeps all his bones; / Not one of them is broken’’ (v. 20). This is a verse concerning Christ because David was a type of the suffering Christ. When Christ was on the cross, the soldiers did not break His legs when they saw that He had already died (John 19:33). John said, ‘‘These things happened that the Scripture might be fulfilled: ‘No bone of His shall be broken’ ’’ (v. 36).

There were times in describing his sufferings that David typified Christ. When we look at Psalm 34, we can see the mixed expressions of David’s sentiment. Verse 20 refers to Christ, but most of this psalm is not according to the tree of life. Our concept needs to be changed to the divine concept according to the tree of life. As we grow in Christ, our concept will be changed.

[aron]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Brother Lee had this damaging concept of the Psalms early on and it bore ugly fruit later in his ministry. The result was that you couldn't trust the Bible, only W.Lee's expounding of it..

Yes; eventually Witness Lee's interpretation overrode the plain words in front of us.

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

...here is [Lee's] msg on Psalm 34.
X. IN BLESSING AND PRAISING GOD
Psalm 34 shows us the mixed expressions of the psalmist’s sentiment in his enjoyment of God in God’s house in blessing and praising God. ....

True, David was mixed. But so is Witness Lee, and so am I. Jesus, however, as the fulfillment of David's type, was not mixed, but pure. This point is not raised.

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

A. Written After David Disguised Himself as Being Insane before Abimelech
It is good to bless and praise God, but we should not forget that such a wonderful psalm was written after David put on a ‘‘mask.’’ He wrote this psalm after he disguised himself as being insane before Abimelech. This story is recorded in 1 Samuel 21:10-15. There David disguised himself before this Philistine king in order to escape from being killed.....

If you read Psalm 34, it says that the righteous cry out and that God delivers them from all their trouble. David was praying, and crying out to God, there as he scratched the wall in front of Abilimilech. And God delivered him. Just as the whale spit out Jonah after he began to praise God in its belly, just as Paul and Silas got freed by an earthquake when they praised God in the jail in Philippi, just as Jesus prayed to the Father in the heart of the earth after 3 days and was raised, so did David call on the Lord in his time of trouble, and the Lord delivered him. David says this plainly in verses 15 and 17.

This point seems to have escaped Witness Lee's cognizance.

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

B. Because of God’s Answer and Deliverance
David blessed and praised God because of God’s answer and deliverance (vv. 1-6). In verse 1 he said, ‘‘I will bless Jehovah at all times; / His praise will continually be in my mouth.’’ This is good, but we have to remember the situation in which David said this. When he disguised himself before Abimelech, he surely was not blessing God at that time......

The reason Mr. Lee says this is because he didn't sing Psalm 34. He merely analyzed it as if it were an insect pinned to a cork board. How do you know David wasn't blessing God while he was there facing the wall? He was a type of Christ, wasn't he? I believe David was saying something like, "God, I will praise You. If I die here, I will die praising You."

And Abimilech said, "Get this madman out of here". Just like when David was mocked by his wife for dancing in front of the ark, just like Festus said "You are insane, Paul", for enjoying Christ while in chains, so was David doing his final death dance before the God of his life. Why, because David was righteous? No, because David was a type of the coming victorious Christ.

All of these pictures of Christ in Psalm 34 escaped Mr. Lee's notice. He only acknowledged verse 20.

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Verses 2-6 say, ‘‘My soul makes its boast in Jehovah; / The lowly hear and they rejoice. / Magnify Jehovah with me, / And let us exalt His name together. / I sought Jehovah, and He answered me; / And He delivered me from all that terrified me. / They looked to Him and were radiant; / And their faces will never be abashed. / This poor man called out, and Jehovah heard; / And He saved him out of all his troubles.’’ David said that Jehovah delivered him. But I would like to ask whether he was delivered out of the hand of Abimelech by Jehovah or whether he delivered himself. ......

Again, the assumption here is that David did the delivering, even though he plainly says that he sought God, who then saved him. Strange. Did David deliver Israel from Goliath's threats, or did God? Did David escape from Saul, or did God deliver him?

I will skip the intermediate verses, and come to this part:

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

2. The Way to Fear God In Psalm 34 David spoke of the way to fear God (vv. 11-16; 1 Pet. 3:10-12). Verses 12-16 say, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good? / Guard your tongue from evil, / And your lips from speaking deceit. / Turn away from evil and do good; / Seek peace and pursue it. / The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry. / The face of Jehovah is against those who do evil, / To cut off the memory of them from the earth.’’ These verses were quoted by Peter in 1 Peter 3:10-12, but Paul did not quote such a word. Paul’s vision of the New Testament economy was clearer than that of all the other apostles.

When David asked, ‘‘Who is the man who desires life, / Who loves having days in order to see good?’’ he was not talking about the eternal life but about the physical life. David was a great saint in the Old Testament, and Peter was one of the great apostles in the New Testament, but I do not believe that what David said here is spiritual. Even among us, who dares ask the Lord to give him long days that he may enjoy many good things?

David said that if we love having days in order to see good, we should guard our tongue from evil and our lips from speaking deceit. But who has ever succeeded in guarding his tongue from evil? What David spoke here was according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Verse 15 says, ‘‘The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry.’’ But who is righteous on this earth? Paul said that not one is righteous (Rom. 3:10), and Isaiah said that our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (Isa. 64:6). If we depend upon our righteousness to enjoy God’s eyes and ears being set toward us, we will enjoy nothing, because we have no righteousness of our own.

Concerning the righteous man, David said, ‘‘He keeps all his bones; / Not one of them is broken’’ (v. 20). This is a verse concerning Christ because David was a type of the suffering Christ. When Christ was on the cross, the soldiers did not break His legs when they saw that He had already died (John 19:33). John said, ‘‘These things happened that the Scripture might be fulfilled: ‘No bone of His shall be broken’ ’’ (v. 36).

There were times in describing his sufferings that David typified Christ. When we look at Psalm 34, we can see the mixed expressions of David’s sentiment. Verse 20 refers to Christ, but most of this psalm is not according to the tree of life. Our concept needs to be changed to the divine concept according to the tree of life. As we grow in Christ, our concept will be changed.

This really is strange to me. The previous verses, of loving life, seeing many good days, keeping one's tongue from evil, seeking peace, are called vain by Mr. Lee. He asks, "But who has ever succeeded in guarding his tongue from evil?" What a strange question for a minister of Christ Jesus to ask. The answer is that Christ Himself guarded His tongue from evil. Christ sought peace, Christ was righteous, and God heard the cry of Christ and delivered Him.

Then, suddenly, Mr. Lee sees Christ in Psalm 34. In verse 20. "None of his bones shall be broken." If this hadn't been quoted in the New Testament, I doubt he would have seen Christ here, either.

I surmise that the "young men were having visions" by the pouring out of the Spirit as they sang the Psalms (see Joel 2:28, Acts 2:17), and since this ministry wasn't from "the throne of the Oracle" (Mr. Lee) then it was stopped. Lee wouldn't sing the Psalms because a) someone got there before him and he didn't want to follow, and b) because it would "decentralize the revelation" and this would undermine his ministry/merchandising business.

So you get the plain words of Christ in the Psalms being ignored (vv. 1-19), and acknowledged only when absolutely necessary (v. 20).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by VoiceInWilderness

Brother Lee had this damaging concept of the Psalms early on and it bore ugly fruit later in his ministry. The result was that you couldn't trust the Bible, only W.Lee's expounding of it. In his later years, W. Lee was far more arrogant than I ever remembered. He puts his ministry above the Bible. Not only does he say that Psalm 34 is unspiritual, but belittles the NT apostle Peter for quoting the Psalm.

Brother Steve, Very true.

For many years I was deluded into thinking that the ministry of W. Lee was higher and richer than all others before him with the possible exception of the Apostle Paul. One would think that since WL actually critiqued the validity of various books of the Bible, that some how, some way, he had "surpassed" their authors, even the original "Twelve." We were actively taught that the ministry of WL subsumed all those before him, standing on their shoulders, and learning from their shortcomings.

This was accentuated by the fact that WL regularly highlighted the faults and failures of both Biblical authors and ministers throughout church history. At one point, I came to the stark realization that, besides the Lord Jesus Himself, only WL was without shortcomings and failures. Was he not the consummate God-man, the acting God, raised up by the Lord to close out the age of grace, and prepare the bride of Christ? I may sound facetious here, but I and many others really believed that stuff. It ordered our lives.

.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

As I said, Witness Lee got bothered by the ministries in God's word which sprang up in the "local churches" by singing the Psalms. Several gifted musicians started doing things in the Word which the saints loved, and picked up on. This was a movement "in the churches" which hadn't been sanctioned and directed by Lee the Oracle and Apostle of the age, so it was squelched. People were passing around music cassettes which didn't have "Living Stream Ministry" on them. Lee wanted full control.

Now, what is the consequence of this attempt at man to direct the move of God on the earth? The Spirit was frustrated. The word was closed. The light was turned off.

The fruit of this was evident, a year ago, when I looked at their music catalog. When I looked at their various merchandise being sold, among music there were no psalms. They once had them for sale (i.e. the 1970s, 1980s), but now they were gone. Those gifted and anointed saints were silenced, and evidence of their ministry had disappeared. One could purchase hymns, footnotes set to music, and outlines, and some verses. But no psalms.

And the top of the page selling this stuff quoted the verse with Paul's admonition to sing psalms! Too ironic. This is what happens when the lights turn off.

Interesting stuff aron. I arranged guitar accompaniment for Psalm 126 when the music service group of the Church in Fort Lauderdale set the psalm to music. "When the Lord turned again the captivity of Zion, we were like them that dream." Louis Diaz composed most of the melody. Our version of the psalm was sung widely among the churches in the US at one time. But then it seemed to disappear. Do you think it was suppressed because WL discouraged psalm singing?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Interesting stuff aron. I arranged guitar accompaniment for Psalm 126 when the music service group of the Church in Fort Lauderdale set the psalm to music. "When the Lord turned again the captivity of Zion, we were like them that dream." Our version of the psalm was sung widely among the churches in the US at one time. But then it seemed to disappear. Do you think it was suppressed because WL discouraged psalm singing?

I sang it.

WL first encouraged turning the word into songs at the Ephesians training where the chapter on dating tells us to sing the word of God.

However, this was wildly successful with CD's of the entire books of Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians and Colossians put to music and sung. I think WL felt that the success rivaled and threatened His own lock on the ministry, hence it must be fleshly.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

... Our version of the psalm [126] was sung widely among the churches in the US at one time. But then it seemed to disappear. Do you think it was suppressed because WL discouraged psalm singing?

Somewhat. As ZNP notes, WL initially encouraged "scripture singing", especially from the "heart of the divine revelation" (Eph/Gal/Col/Phil) more than suppressing the singing of psalms. But he did do that, too, occasionally making fun of both the repetitive phraseology of the psalms ("For His mercy endureth forever") as well as indicating that the psalms weren't "revelatory" like Paul's epistles. To WL, Paul was "high" and psalms were "low". Naturally, we all followed WL to Paul and the "high peaks."

But I suspect that there were other issues, as well. As I noted earlier, Paul in his "high peaks" encouraged saints to sing the psalms, calling them "the word of Christ" and saying that by doing so this word of Christ would dwell in us richly! The LSM web even site has a page with this verse (Colossians 3:16) as a banner, and underneath they sell NT verses in song, as well as "training outline" songs and "banner songs", but no psalms are available.

Why? I believe there are two issues. First, they didn't control the copyrights to all the music and you know that with LSM it is all about control. Second, a lot of the melodies were not even composed by saints "on the local ground", but were composed in "Babylon"! Shocking! Now, you and I know that there was no spirit, and no light out there, so what were the LC saints doing singing music which came from Christianity?!?

Maybe all of this gave WL the heebie-jeebies and so he declared the psalms to be "low" and not worth his time & effort, and simply moved on. This is from a guy who spent message after message showing "Christ" emerging from the boards of the ark!

On a related note, I recently ran across some non-LSM psalm & scripture music tapes from the late '60s and early '70s. I recognized a lot of the songs, especially on their first efforts, from my time in the LCs.

Here are some saints from New Zealand:

http://www.davidanddalegarratt.com/

And some saints from Texas:

http://www.thenewcreationsingers.com/history.html

I'm sure there were others as well. So here you have a guy (WL) with control issues, and the "local church people" are singing, and enjoying, God's word outside of his domain (sorry, "ministry") and this was probably threatening. The ministries of outsiders were entering the local church life!

Did something like this happen? I don't know. Does it make sense? To me, yes it does.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

...when Paul twice (Col 3:16, Eph 5:19) urged the saints to let the word of Christ dwell in them richly as they sang psalms, singing praise to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, do you think he was thinking of limiting them to those few? I don't get any indication of that.

Mr. Lee did not say "Stop singing the Psalms"; he said, "It would be better if you sang verses from Ephesians than from Psalms". Then he imitated in a mocking way the saints as they praised God using the words of the psalmist. His "shaming" actions were enough to discourage the saints.

If Mr. Lee wanted us to sing verses from Ephesians, which we dutifully began to do, telling us that they were so much fuller and higher and more revelatory than the Psalms, then what are we to make of the fact that the book of Ephesians itself encourages us to sing the Psalms, equating this to being filled with the Spirit (5:18,19)?

Was Paul merely using his fallen "natural concept" when telling us that we could be filled with the Spirit by singing the Psalms?

And if this was some kind of "slip" in Paul's revelatory ministry, some kind of momentary regression, why did Paul repeat this encouragement in Colossians chapter 3? Two is the number of witness. Writing it twice, in separate epistles, rather reduces the probability that this had been a momentary lapse on Paul's part.

And this brings me to back to Ohio's earlier question: how could we have unprotestingly swallowed these teachings? How could thousands of otherwise mostly bright and capable people have sat there in a conference and listened to a lengthy and sometimes tortuous exposition on how much the Psalms lacked revelation of Christ, without someone, anyone, going, "Um.... Mr. Lee... it says here..."?

My feeling of Lee and the Psalms is that he neither entered in, nor did he allow his disciples to enter in, as it says in Matthew 23:13: "...You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

It took 15 years out of my immersive mental bath of Living Stream Ministry teachings, before the scales came off and I began to see Jesus Christ, as He is so vividly depicted in the Psalms. And I began to "see" Jesus in the Psalms, believe it or not, by singing them. The apostle Paul was right. Funny how that goes.

"You foolish people! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed..." See Galatians 3:1

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

...how could we have dutifully swallowed these teachings? How could thousands of bright and capable people have sat there in a conference and listened to a lengthy and sometimes tortuous exposition on how much the Psalms lacked revelation of Christ, without someone, anyone, going, "Um.... Mr. Lee... it says here..."?

My feeling of Lee and the Psalms is that he neither entered in, nor did he allow his disciples to enter in...

I may not have been clear on the text which was the source of my discussion, because in writing I was thinking specifically of the quotes from Mr. Lee's Life-Study of Psalms 34 which VoiceInWilderness posted earlier:

"Verse 15 says, ‘‘The eyes of Jehovah are set toward the righteous, / And His ears, toward their cry.’’ But who is righteous on this earth?"

and

"David said that if we love having days in order to see good, we should guard our tongue from evil and our lips from speaking deceit. But who has ever succeeded in guarding his tongue from evil?"

The answer to these is obviously the coming Christ, Jesus the Nazarene (and should, in our NT experience, extend to those believers "in Christ"). It is understandable why Lee, who had an emotional (and financial) investment in his "God's economy" template, would avoid Jesus the Nazarene as the answer to both of these questions. But, in retrospect, it is stunning to think that from an audience numbering in the thousands, and of Christians no less, not one person could produce come up with this answer. Could this be true?

That is why I quoted Matthew 23:13 and Galatians 3:1. One hardly knows what else to make of such a lack of response, from so many listeners.

[OBW]

Yes, both Colossians and Ephesians clearly recommends psalms — the first as a source of wisdom and the second as kind of evidence of the filling of the Spirit in the context of fellowship among believers. I believe both verses make reference to speaking and/or singing psalms "to one another."

I do find psalms, along with most of the instruction, wisdom and prophecy in the OT to reveal God, who is further revealed in Christ, therefore quite "revelatory." Yet neither of these passages really makes that statement. (I do not diminish the revelation of God in the history, but it often comes in observations of larger portions of narrative than in the pointed references in these other portions.)

An observation about all that has gone on here so far. We have shown (and are continuing to show) how Christ is revealed in the psalms. And how the psalms are pointed to as a source of wisdom, and as something that arises from the filling of the Spirit. But while I understand the idea that Christ is God, therefore all speaking of God can be argued as being speaking of Christ, at some level, I think that even naming this thread "The Psalms are the Word of Christ" takes this a little further than the revelation suggests. We can accurately say that it all points to Christ. But the scripture itself does not say that it is all the speaking of Christ or the Word of Christ. It says it is the Word of God. And then in Hebrews, it says that God spoke in the past in various ways through the prophets, but is now speaking through the Son.

I believe that, rather than always redefining things, we should remain faithful to the way that scripture describes itself and the way that it says what it says. While it may be possible to build a linkage of terms and arrive at the conclusion that Christ spoke it all, that is not the way scripture describes it. Why are we compelled to do it now, 2,000 years later?

On the other hand, it is clear that scripture of all kinds from all parts of the OT were used to tell us about God, and much of it tells us about Christ. So there clearly is revelation concerning Christ. And a lot of it is in the psalms.

[aron]

Originally Posted by OBW

... I understand the idea that Christ is God, therefore all speaking of God can be argued as being speaking of Christ, at some level, I think that even naming this thread "The Psalms are the Word of Christ" takes this a little further than the revelation suggests. We can accurately say that it all points to Christ. But the scripture itself does not say that it is all the speaking of Christ or the Word of Christ...

Yes; in my efforts to counterbalance Mr. Lee, I went further than Paul's phraseology in Ephesians and Colossians might allow. So my title should not be taken literally, as in "...all the words in the Psalms are words of Christ".

As I have said before, I have the penchant for dramatic effect, and often overstate my point to make it. My take on LSM's version of Psalms was that they felt that only a little of it was "The word of David", a man who was "natural", i.e. fallen. Those "natural concept" sections are either ignored, or dismissed summarily, even perjoratively.

Then there are what they call the "revelation of (i.e. about) Christ".

See 1 Peter 1:10-12:

10 Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11 trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of the Messiah and the glories that would follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things.

LSM teaches that there are revelatory words of the "Spirit of Christ" interspersed with the "natural" words of David and the other psalmists. My point is this: that according to Mssrs Lee et al there are few revelations of Christ to be found in the Psalms, and a lot of "natural" speaking. See my post regarding the footnotes of Psalms 1 through 21, and also VoiceInWilderness' excerpt from the Life-Study of Psalm 34 as representative samples. As I noted, only 3 of the first 21 Psalms are "of Christ" according to Lee & Co, and only verse 20 from the whole of Psalm 34. The rest is "natural", or "shallow".

In my rebuttal of this notion, I may have left the door open to an interpretation which is equally unbalanced. And thank you OBW for closing that.

--------------------

Another reason why the Psalms deserve closer scrutiny than they have been given, at least by Mssrs Lee, Kangas, Marks et al, is that the notion of "voice" in the Psalms is quite muddled. Sometimes the voice is first person: "The zeal of thy house has eaten me up" in Psalms 69 -- the "Me" here, according to the quotation in John chapter 2, would seem to be of Christ Himself. "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" from Psalm 22 also is the example of the "word of (from) Christ" Himself.

But sometimes the psalmist is speaking to Christ: "they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone." from Psalm 91, as an example.

Sometimes the psalmist is speaking to another about Christ: "Kiss the Son unless He become angry..." in Psalm 2.

And so forth. You also might have God speaking through the psalmist about Christ; you might have God speaking through the psalmist about the "wicked" who reject Christ, you may have the psalmist in his "natural concept" saying things about himself, etc etc. Many voices. Not easy to sort out. And resistant to the template put forth by Lee.

The problem is confounded by the fact that sometimes the "voice" may be seen to be the psalmist, but upon further reflection a deep revelation of "the mystery of Christ" awaits. My analogy is that a college physics book might show an image of "an orange ball" in its pages. A second grader would not be incorrect to identify it as such. But a more sophisticated reader (i.e. a college student) might identify it is a representational of an atom's electron shell. Neither answer is incorrect; one merely goes deeper into the heart of the matter.

My question is: how could so many people who were otherwise possessed of critical faculties be so oblivious to a teaching which is very shallow and inadequate? And, especially, when it is void of the very Christ whom they profess to seek?

Currently, my answer tends toward John 7:13: "But no one would say anything publicly about him for fear of the Jews", and John 12:42: "Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him... but... they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue..."

Ironically, the ministry which is supposed to free people from the bondage of the clergy/laity system put them into the silence of fear: don't mention that the emperor's teachings have no clothes. Don't be "negative", or "critical".

I suspect that within the Lee crowd there were/are some who believe that there is "more Christ" in the text than what has been officially pronounced. They believe this, but because of trepidation they won't speak it.