Does Proverbs 26:4 contradict verse 5?

[OBW]

By the way, not disagreeing overall, just don't think the examples given fit the discussion that well. In any case, they don't give it any better meaning for me. Maybe for others.

[77150]

Originally Posted by OBW

By the way, not disagreeing overall, just don't think the examples given fit the discussion that well. In any case, they don't give it any better meaning for me. Maybe for others.

OK, let me try to be a little clearer. The Cuban Missile Crisis. If JFK rebukes the Russians there is a risk of forcing a showdown that could lead to a nuclear war with Russia. If he doesn't confront them they will be "wise in their own conceit". If this is the way they behave without being "wise in their own conceit" how will they act if they think JFK is powerless? This kind of risk assessment takes place in a multitude of decisions, hence the expression "damned if you do, damned if you don't". An apt expression for 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Likewise with the LRC. Years ago some book insinuated or stated that the LRC was a cult. The LRC took them to court and sued them. The guy responsible did not have enough money to see the lawsuit to the end, so the LSM/LRC was awarded a judgment. Again, do you say the LRC is a cult and run the risk of being sued when you can't afford to fight, or do you leave them out of your list and lose credibility?

Luke
14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

To be a disciple of the Lord requires that you do this kind of risk assessment. In other words, the Lord isn't hiding the fact that to be His disciple will cost everything you have. For example, take the elder that decided to give up his job and become "full time" when RG and BP and WL were pushing "being sold out for the Lord", need for "full timers" etc. This elder may have used this word from the Lord to say "hey, I need to forsake all if I am going to be a disciple of the Lord". However, this elder then learns, after giving up his job, that he must submit to PL, a loathsome man

So what happened? Well, this elder learned that "you have to forsake all to be a disciple of the Lord". Stand by his conscience, rebuke PL, RG, BP, WL, etal and go back out looking for a job. The Lord is faithful. Amen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 77150

So what happened? Well, this elder learned that "you have to forsake all to be a disciple of the Lord". Stand by his conscience, rebuke PL, RG, BP, WL, etal and go back out looking for a job.

Might want to find the job first.

[UntoHim]

77150,
You asked me to expound and so I did. The fact that you don't like that my expounding started off with a question is your problem.

I am going to make this very simple for you. You can respond in a straightforward manner or do not respond at all. In any case you need to stop playing games and posting in bad faith. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Your opening post reflected a certain sentiment regarding happenings in the Local Church as they relate to these verses in Proverbs. I suspected that you had "something else" in mind. You really wanted to take a shot at "this site".

You waited a few days and then sprung the "obvious question" on us:

Originally Posted by 77150

The obvious question becomes this:
Since this site is rebuking the folly of WL, LSM and the LRC does it follow that this site must "be like them"?

What is very obvious that you have a big problem with "this site". What is obvious is that you are going out of your way to hide your concerns and criticisms behind the guise of dialog, then once you've wasted our time you spring out with sarcastic stuff like what I quote above.

Stop wasting our time. Stop posting in bad faith.

[77150]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

77150,
You asked me to expound and so I did. The fact that you don't like that my expounding started off with a question is your problem.

I am going to make this very simple for you. You can respond in a straightforward manner or do not respond at all. In any case you need to stop playing games and posting in bad faith. Say what you mean and mean what you say.

Your opening post reflected a certain sentiment regarding happenings in the Local Church as they relate to these verses in Proverbs. I suspected that you had "something else" in mind. You really wanted to take a shot at "this site".

You waited a few days and then sprung the "obvious question" on us:


What is very obvious that you have a big problem with "this site". What is obvious is that you are going out of your way to hide your concerns and criticisms behind the guise of dialog, then once you've wasted our time you spring out with sarcastic stuff like what I quote above.

Stop wasting our time. Stop posting in bad faith.

26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

I introduced these two verses because I felt they were relevant to the LRC and LSM. I understood the actions and teachings of the LSM to be folly. If you look at verse 4 alone you might think that this word is saying that when you answer, don’t do it according to his folly. But based on the construct I don’t think that is at all what it is saying. Instead, I think it is saying what I have very clearly and plainly said, in many situations you have to do a cost / benefit analysis. If you confront someone on an issue there is a cost and a benefit. This is not unlike a general figuring out if his 10,000 men can fight against the attacking army and if not deciding the best course of action is to seek peace (the Lord’s example) or like the builder who first has to calculate the entire cost of a project to determine if he can complete the project before he starts the project. The Lord used these examples to make it clear he wanted his disciples to be well aware of the cost, that they would have to forsake all, to be His disciple.

We had a discussion with a number of back and forth posts on this concept of cost / benefit analysis and whether this is the proper interpretation for this verse. I anticipated this and therefore stopped with this first concept in my post.

Some also took issue with the idea that the topics on this forum are dealing with “folly”. This I did not anticipate. However, thankfully, it was agreed that the book of Proverbs does teach concerning wisdom and folly.

I provided a number of proverbs that I feel touch on the same issues raised here. For example, “Fools make a mock of sin”. This verse reminds me of WL’s quote concerning Daystar that “the saints had lost their virginity”. If anyone agrees that this quote of WL is mocking his sin, then you agree that Proverbs is calling WL a fool. Folly refers to the acts of a fool. In Post #9 I provided you with about 40 quotes from Proverbs that I felt could be directly linked to discussions on this forum. It is not necessary for anyone to agree with all, if you agree with some then you agree that we are discussing the “folly” of WL, PL, LSM, LRC, etc.

In that Post I said
19:5 A false witness shall not be unpunished, and he that speaketh lies shall not escape.

Do you think that the Lord Jesus might be using this site to make sure that this verse is fulfilled?

I think anyone who has read that post can see a very valid basis for me to link verses 4 and 5 in chapter 26 with wondering how to deal with LSM/LRC. Regardless of whether you agree with me, the thread and post is focused on dealing with LSM, all posts are relevant and clear.

According to your post you “suspected that I had something else in mind and wanted to take a shot at “this site”.

Why would you say this? How is saying that WL is a false witness and will not go unpunished “taking a shot at this site”?

You took issue with the question I raised “Since this site is rebuking the folly of WL, LSM and the LRC does it follow that this site must "be like them"?

The context of this statement is clearly Proverbs 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

I do not believe you understand this verse, which is why you took such great offense at the question. I am not “playing games”.

Proverbs 3:30 Strive not with a man without cause, if he have done thee no harm

This is basic wisdom. We teach this to children. However, if you look at the so called “sister’s rebellion” I would contend that WL strove with these sisters without cause and that they had done him no harm. Why would he do something so foolish? I think it was to deflect attention from his own misdeeds.

However, I haven’t done you any harm, so why are you saying that “I am playing games” and that “I am not posting in good faith”, suggesting that I was being deceitful?

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate

Again, I feel WL expressed a lot of pride and arrogancy in his ministry. I also think he was very litigious, which is how I understand the word “froward mouth”.

As we know “the fear of the Lord” is the beginning of wisdom. It is also the secret to departing from evil. So surely, as much as we condemn the pride, arrogance, evil way and litigious nature, so much the more we would hope to depart from this evil.

12:1b he that hateth reproof is brutish.

In all my experience of WL this seems to me to be the one most defining characteristic. I never saw him “reproved” but listening to him speak you realized if someone so much as looked askance he would go nuts. When I heard this I chalked this up as referring to things going on behind the scenes that I was unaware of, but if I was then I would understand. Now that I understand more I would say that WL hated reproof and was brutish. But when I speak this word I understand that I will be judged with the same judgement. That is why I asked you to explain why you reproved me. But I still don’t understand why.

13:1b a scorner heareth not rebuke
Along these lines I think this verse also applies to WL. Scorn is to express contempt or derision for. I heard WL express contempt and derision for others a lot. And sure enough, he could not or would not hear rebuke. Now surely I do not want to be like that. It is a very dangerous thing to express contempt or derision, yet how can this website speak the truth concerning LSM, WL, BBs, Whistler, etc. without doing that? Hence, in order to rebuke the scorner it will be difficult to impossible not to “also be like unto him”.

13:10 Only by pride cometh contention:

While I was in the LRC I saw a lot of contention. More than I ever saw in any Christian group. I also saw a lot of pride.

Now I stand by my words that Proverbs 26:4-5 refer to how a disciple of Christ would calculate his actions in dealing with the LRC/LSM/BBs. I don’t agree with your assessment that I have been playing games. I don’t agree with your assessment that my posts have been in bad faith. But I have reviewed these posts with this in mind. I have tried to listen to the rebuke and embrace the reproof.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by 77150

OK, let me try to be a little clearer. The Cuban Missile Crisis. If JFK rebukes the Russians there is a risk of forcing a showdown that could lead to a nuclear war with Russia. If he doesn't confront them they will be "wise in their own conceit". If this is the way they behave without being "wise in their own conceit" how will they act if they think JFK is powerless? This kind of risk assessment takes place in a multitude of decisions, hence the expression "damned if you do, damned if you don't". An apt expression for 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Likewise with the LRC. Years ago some book insinuated or stated that the LRC was a cult. The LRC took them to court and sued them. The guy responsible did not have enough money to see the lawsuit to the end, so the LSM/LRC was awarded a judgment. Again, do you say the LRC is a cult and run the risk of being sued when you can't afford to fight, or do you leave them out of your list and lose credibility?

Luke
14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
14:32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace.
14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

To be a disciple of the Lord requires that you do this kind of risk assessment. In other words, the Lord isn't hiding the fact that to be His disciple will cost everything you have. For example, take the elder that decided to give up his job and become "full time" when RG and BP and WL were pushing "being sold out for the Lord", need for "full timers" etc. This elder may have used this word from the Lord to say "hey, I need to forsake all if I am going to be a disciple of the Lord". However, this elder then learns, after giving up his job, that he must submit to PL, a loathsome man

So what happened? Well, this elder learned that "you have to forsake all to be a disciple of the Lord". Stand by his conscience, rebuke PL, RG, BP, WL, etal and go back out looking for a job. The Lord is faithful. Amen.

Each of the examples is meaningful for what they are meaningful for. But they are not really examples of the pair of statements in Proverbs. At least not to me.

The first is quite interesting. While I think that we (the US) did the right thing in forcing the Russians back, they were responding to our similar placement of missiles far outside our borders and close to theirs. A little tit-for-tat. A game of chess.

I don't really care for a specific example of the verses. And these are not them. Each one speaks to a different scenario, and to different verses.

The verses about considering the might of an opposing king/army is not the same as answering a fool in his folly. The verses in Luke are about something different. counting the cost is different from not stooping to join a fool. Yes, knowing the cost may help you avoid being a fool, but avoiding being a fool may not "answer the fool according to his folly."

Putting the two together can be meaningful in some cases. But counting the cost is not the same as answering or not answering according to the folly of a fool. And answering or not answering is not a matter of counting the cost, although counting the cost could be relevant if the only ones to hear will be those who have no desire to listen and understand. Just continue to speak as they are, taking only their own counsel.

[OBW]

Now, having said what I have concerning the meaning of the verses in Proverbs (which I am not certain is entirely correct) I do see something emerging from those verses that might not have been intended.

And it relates to how we speak concerning Lee, the BBs, the teachings of the LRC and the high-handedness of everything LSM.

We rightly accuse Lee of simply lashing out at everything that does not fall in line with his teachings. And there are clearly errors in his teachings, and serious problems in the unrighteous way the Lee acted and the BBs and LSM continue to act.

But do we too often simply gnash our teeth back at them in similar fashion? And do we over-correct when we realize that others are doing that, almost falling all over ourselves to be nice?

The answer, I believe, is in more rational discourse about any issue, whether theological or practical. Don't just say something is so. Take time to establish that it is so. Don't just say it isn't so. Show how it is not so.

I am probably as bad about this in some ways as anyone else. When I said that Lee limited the understanding of many words to only a single meaning throughout scripture, that is all I said. Ohio rightly pointed out that Lee probably spent more time doing some of the kind of open discussion of alternative meanings than most others preachers. They usually take only the time to give you the answers. Lee always took more time because for every one sermon by a preacher, Lee gave several messages in a conference. But after going through those variations, he too often settled on one definition to the exclusion of the others. In the case of "economy," it was to a very narrow, peculiar definition that he insisted was the only one. In the case of "one," he insisted that it was simply an organic union. (Interesting that those two definitions go together so well.)

But the real problem here is that we too often do just like him. We quickly conclude without real consideration and go on a rampage (answering the fool as in Proverbs 26:4). Or we reject those on the rampage and fight against their position with equal lack of consideration.

Emotional responses actually are kind of like the Dark Side. They cloud our judgment by limiting our desire to investigate, consider, contemplate.

This is a board for the discussion of Lee, Nee, and the LRC. We need to do a better job of discussing them, not merely ranting or defending with incredulity.

And I now find it interesting that someone is flooding the forum with posts yet is using a temporary moniker that will have to be changed after a short time. That smacks of motives inconsistent with the purpose of the forum. I still say that it should not be an option. Unto has more reason to question that one about motives because they have already indicated that they do not intend to be permanent — just flood us and disappear. Or return shortly with a new moniker and a new style and demeanor.

And all of the possible problems may not exist for this person. But it is strongly hinted. And some indication that it is coming true.

Unto. Time to require registration.

[77150]

I think I am operating on a different definition of "Wisdom and folly" than everyone else. To me the verse "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" is the key to my understanding. This takes the term "wisdom" out of a natural view of someone being "successful" and puts it into the view of eternity. In my understanding building up a "successful ministry" is folly if you are not subject to the Lord in all things. Much like the Lord's word "depart from me workers of iniquity, I never knew you".

In this same vein any work of iniquity is folly in the final analysis. So you could have a "brilliant" plan that deceives everyone but it is still folly because one day you have to appear before the Lord Jesus.

In this same vein anything that is out of pride is folly. How can you stand before the Lord in your "pride" and not feel like a total fool? Therefore any scorn directed at another person is also folly, the Lord created this person for a purpose.

My definition of folly -- anything that I do that I would be ashamed of at the Lord's coming.

Herein is the dilemma. Which is quite similar to Jesus becoming sin for us so that we could be saved from our sins. There is lots of scriptural justification to "expose the works of darkness" yet in doing so you will heap scorn on the heads of those who acted hypocritically and deceitfully. Yet the Lord has already promised that you will be judged with the same judgement with which you judge.

The way I understand this is that you have to take special care, much like a doctor who scrubs up before an operation. Every word you speak will be used to judge you.

[77150]

21:11 When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise: and when the wise is instructed, he receiveth knowledge.
21:12 The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

I think reading more details about WL, “the scorner”, helped me “the simple” to be made wise. I imagine this is the experience of many who were in or are in the LRC.

I would hope that we are “the righteous men wisely considering the house of the wicked”, but in the end it is God that overthrows the wicked for their wickedness. However, we are coworkers of God. Why would God punish the scorner in a way where the simple are not made wise? Therefore this site is critical because when God does overthrow the wicked for their wickedness everyone will know why He did it.

Finally:

21:13 Whoso stoppeth his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.

This verse reminds me of post #26 by Nell in “Mark them which cause divisions” thread.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 77150

I think I am operating on a different definition of "Wisdom and folly" than everyone else. To me the verse "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" is the key to my understanding.

My definition of folly -- anything that I do that I would be ashamed of at the Lord's coming.

77150, I for one appreciate the perspective you bring to the forum. I think it is a great addition to the mix, and don't understand the comments about posting in "bad-faith." Hopefully you can work out this apparent misunderstanding.

Having had little personal study into the book of Proverbs, I find your comments a welcome insight indeed when compared to the stale comments I usually post. I daresay that no one has yet brought this ancient book of wisdom into the context of LSM and the LC's. All "good" followers of the teachings of WL have mostly avoided this book because it was apparently "short of Christ," or so we were told.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

77150, I daresay that no one has yet brought this ancient book of wisdom into the context of LSM and the LC's. All "good" followers of the teachings of WL have mostly avoided this book because it was apparently "short of Christ," or so we were told.

28:4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them.

Would this explain a little about how RG and BP were able to work with PL and push the MOTA teaching whereas JI and others contended with WL about PL?

28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Ohio

77150, All "good" followers of the teachings of WL have mostly avoided this book because it was apparently "short of Christ," or so we were told.

A lot of books talk about Christ, provide prophecies, types, figures, etc. This book seems to give voice to Christ talking about the things that would cause us to veer from the path.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Having had little personal study into the book of Proverbs, I find your comments a welcome insight indeed when compared to the stale comments I usually post. I daresay that no one has yet brought this ancient book of wisdom into the context of LSM and the LC's. All "good" followers of the teachings of WL have mostly avoided this book because it was apparently "short of Christ," or so we were told.

Ohio, not just in Proverbs but you could make the case for James, Luke chapter 6, Matthew 23, Jeremiah 23, 1 Corinthians 13, Isaiah 5, etc. Portions of the Bible that touch our conscience and cause us to be introspective. If you recall the Song of Songs training, one of the points I recall was against being introspective. Why is that? What is wrong with introspection? Is it because with introspection there is the consideration "you could be wrong"? With these portions of the Bible I've mentioned, it's not a positive or an affirming word you and I have been used to hearing from the ministry.
Which brings me to my next point.
As I see from "the ministry"
A positive word = Christ
An adjusting word = short of Christ

[OBW]

Originally Posted by 77150

To me the verse "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" is the key to my understanding. This takes the term "wisdom" out of a natural view of someone being "successful" and puts it into the view of eternity.

Who suggested that any kind of wisdom is related to being successful? I do not consider success when I consider wisdom. Wisdom is a clear understanding of what is ─ correct, moral, righteous, Godly, as well as those things that are not. Wisdom is found outside of religious circles without being associated with success. It is rather associated with experience and tempering. Surely the best wisdom is from a view beyond the temporal and the here-and-now. Therefore in consideration of what is wise without regard to culture, popularity, even sect or creed.

Your definition is not faulty. But it is limiting. Wisdom is wisdom. And none can be considered all-wise, therefore we all find ourselves in places of folly at times. This is true for the Christian and the heathen alike. I will agree that wisdom from a Christian base is more consistently sound. But we view wisdom from our own perspective. So however far off we are will determine how well re recognize it when it is in front of us.

I like your verse concerning the praise of the wicked by those who forsake the law. And the teachings of Lee are pretty consistently to ignore the law. Even despise it. Only do right to the extent that it falls on you due to sufficient "dispensing." That applies to virtually everyone who follows Lee's teachings, although likely in no more egregious manner than the vehement defense of PL by WL, BP, RG, RK, etc.

On the other hand, I find that discovering verses that fit everything too often is as far as many people will take it. In other words, they show their superiority by correctly identifying the verse, but eventually do little or nothing about it. Like applauding when you hear the beginning of a favorite song at a concert. Most people are actually demonstrating (showing off) that they have figured out which song it is more than showing appreciation for the performance. In fact, better to listen and appreciate, then applaud at the end when it is artfully performed.

Don't just say they did it. Describe how they did it. To just say it, even if true, does not make the case that the verse fits.

And virtually all of the discussion and proof about anything is getting old. Someone needs to resurrect posts with Ingals' accounts. And John So's. And many others. Post some snippets from the Fermentation booklet to show how much Lee lied.

And dig through the theological faults in Lee's teachings. And Nee's for that matter.

And when all is said and done, I think I missed the reason that this thread was opened with respect to the forum's purposes. I was looking back and couldn't find anything but a brain teaser. It is probably there, but it is getting a little lengthy to read through now. Can someone make a concise description of the purpose for me? Why are we discussing it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

Who suggested that any kind of wisdom is related to being successful?

I think that might have been me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

On the other hand, I find that discovering verses that fit everything too often is as far as many people will take it. In other words, they show their superiority by correctly identifying the verse, but eventually do little or nothing about it. Like applauding when you hear the beginning of a favorite song at a concert. Most people are actually demonstrating (showing off) that they have figured out which song it is more than showing appreciation for the performance. In fact, better to listen and appreciate, then applaud at the end when it is artfully performed.

Wow! What set you off? Someone finds a helpful verse, and you go off about the last concert you went to. Better stay home and listen to the Moodies on your iPod.

[77150]

Originally Posted by OBW

Can someone make a concise description of the purpose for me? Why are we discussing it?

I consider this my first thread (the other thread was an answer to a question).

I registered for this forum because 21:11 When the scorner is punished, the simple is made wise: and when the wise is instructed, he receiveth knowledge.
21:12 The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

My first thought was “what is the worst thing that could happen as a result of posting on this forum?” I ruled out being ostracized and scorned because when I appear before the Lord will I be ashamed because I was ostracized and scorned for contending for righteousness? No, that would be a blessing and honor.

The worst thing would be something that causes me to become bankrupt in my Christian life, to be defeated as a Christian? Under what situation would I be better off just making peace with the LRC (Luke 14:28-33)? Because when I can figure out what that is I will know the enemies game plan. The answer was simple “becoming like unto them”. Romans 2:3 “And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?”

So, the purpose of this thread is to reduce the risk of this happening. I knew that if you all had the same fear of the Lord then we would balance one another, we would have each other’s back and we would protect one another.