Steve Isitt (Indiana) testimony

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In my experience this is a blessing, not a curse. If, as Shakespeare said "all the world is a stage" then the spotlight is on Steve. Everyone is watching him and they are all ashamed of their behavior, because they have the same conscience you and I have, but they believe he has been bitten by a poisonous snake and they are waiting for him to fall down dead.

If you remember Paul's experience, the first reaction to his getting bit was everyone considered him a murderer who, although he had escaped the sea, judgement had pursued him. However, when he showed no ill effect of that snake, then their opinion changed 180 degrees...

Dear ZNPaaneah, it is interesting that you bring forth Paul's experience after the shipwreck. So you must think there is some direct corollary here? It appears that basically you see Steve Isitt standing in the position of Paul. Please help us understand further what correspondence you might see between these two events.

"Everyone is watching him" - Who is watching, everyone? The shunners? The forum readers?

"they are all ashamed of their behavior" Who is ashamed of their behavior? I have not yet met anyone aligned with the LSM/LC who is ashamed about what has happened to Steve.

"they have the same conscience as you and I" - Who in this story do you think has the same conscience as you and I? Are you assuming that both you and I have a healthy conscience???

"Everyone considered him a murderer" - Who considers him a murderer? And who is the real murderer? Who is the one who really brings DEATH? Jesus taught that one who is angry in his heart toward another is guilty of murder!

"he showed no ill effect of that snake" - Who represents the snake in this story?

Please elaborate...

P.S.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Dear ZNPaaneah, it is interesting that you bring forth Paul's experience after the shipwreck. So you must think there is some direct corollary here? It appears that basically you see Steve Isitt standing in the position of Paul. Please help us understand further what correspondence you might see between these two events.

"Everyone is watching him" - Who is watching, everyone? The shunners? The forum readers?

I was referring to those shunning him.

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

"they are all ashamed of their behavior" Who is ashamed of their behavior? I have not yet met anyone aligned with the LSM/LC who is ashamed about what has happened to Steve.

In my experience, the vast majority of saints are sheep. The leaders tell them to shun someone, they do it. However, they still have a conscience. I have seen saints struggle greatly with doing something that their conscience disagrees with yet they feel the pressure from the church leaders to do and fear to rebel. Psalms talks about "deep calleth unto deep". I believe that this kind of trial is a trial of your faith, and part of that faith is believing that the saints have a conscience and that deep calleth unto deep.

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

"they have the same conscience as you and I" - Who in this story do you think has the same conscience as you and I? Are you assuming that both you and I have a healthy conscience???

I am referring to the typical saint who is pressured into shunning a brother with little or no other basis other than the church leadership has said so. I assume the typical saint is a born again Christian with an active conscience, not one that has been seared. I am not referring to the leaders who in my mind may have seared their conscience by now, don't know.

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

"Everyone considered him a murderer" - Who considers him a murderer? And who is the real murderer? Who is the one who really brings DEATH? Jesus taught that one who is angry in his heart toward another is guilty of murder!

"he showed no ill effect of that snake" - Who represents the snake in this story?

Please elaborate...

P.S.

Acts 28:4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

In my experience, the vast majority of saints are sheep. The leaders tell them to shun someone, they do it. However, they still have a conscience. I have seen saints struggle greatly with doing something that their conscience disagrees with yet they feel the pressure from the church leaders to do and fear to rebel.

A few days ago, you were incredulous that anything was even happening to Steve. Later the same day, you announced that "they are all ashamed of their behavior" toward Steve.

Gosh, would you also like to inform us that "they are all ashamed" of rejecting Columbus and Ann Arbor? Gimme a break....

P.S. Do sheep feel guilty when they follow?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

A few days ago, you were incredulous that anything was even happening to Steve. Later the same day, you announced that "they are all ashamed of their behavior" toward Steve.

Gosh, would you also like to inform us that "they are all ashamed" of rejecting Columbus and Ann Arbor? Gimme a break....

P.S. Do sheep feel guilty when they follow?

When did I express incredulity?

I do not want anyone to draw the conclusion that I know what any individual is thinking, but as a rule our conscience will condemn us if we are not walking according to the truth. When you look at the holocaust you discover that many Germans were ashamed of what was going on even though they didn't act. The reality of the holocaust was not that all Germans are monsters, not even that the majority of Germans were monsters,

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When did I express incredulity?

I do not want anyone to draw the conclusion that I know what any individual is thinking, but as a rule our conscience will condemn us if we are not walking according to the truth. When you look at the holocaust you discover that many Germans were ashamed of what was going on even though they didn't act. The reality of the holocaust was not that all Germans are monsters, not even that the majority of Germans were monsters,

The difference is that the Germans knew that there was no intrinsic evil in Jews and other non-Germanic/Aryan groups. In the case of the LRC, they actually believe what they are told. Their conscience is directed by the firm belief that there is something spiritually amiss and that the "brothers" are correct to point it out and condemn it.

They feel no shame. They think it is right. They are fully under the influence of the heavenLee kool aid, now fortified with vitamin BB. They know that their teachings are correct and blessed by God.

Besides, how can they be wrong when they're so sincere?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

The difference is that the Germans knew that there was no intrinsic evil in Jews and other non-Germanic/Aryan groups. In the case of the LRC, they actually believe what they are told. Their conscience is directed by the firm belief that there is something spiritually amiss and that the "brothers" are correct to point it out and condemn it.

I don't believe it was so cut and dry. Many Germans were fully convinced that the Jews were a blight to their country just as many LC'ers feel that WL and the blindeds are honest men of God for pointing out all the divisions and corruptions in Christianity.

There were also many soldiers who were "just following orders" as dutiful soldiers are trained. They faced their own death, and suffering for loved ones, for disobeying orders.

I'm not trying to diminish the responsibilities of the typical German, nor the typical LC'er for that matter, but the greater evil is always the responsibility of the leaders. The masses are always likened as "sheep without a shepherd."

Even God Himself told the highest ranking officer of the land, before He was crucified and scourged by him, that the Sanhedrin had the "greater sin."

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Even God Himself told the highest ranking officer of the land, before He was crucified and scourged by him, that the Sanhedrin had the "greater sin."

But the BB are Roman by nature, so they're kinda immune from any charge worse than the "lesser sin"...

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by OBW

They feel no shame. They think it is right. They are fully under the influence of the heavenLee kool aid, now fortified with vitamin BB. They know that their teachings are correct and blessed by God.

Besides, how can they be wrong when they're so sincere?

When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed

Luke 11:21 is appropriate in relation to your post OBW. There is a fortification. Even if Steve is "spot on" in his historical narrative of the local churches, the blended brothers and the co-workers are fortified and fully armed. This also explains why there is no fellowship with Christian assemblies that do not take Living Stream Ministry as the one publication. To be a Christian and indifferent towards "the minstry" LSM publishes is unacceptable. You are either for us or agianst us. There's no middle ground. Of course many on the forum have been aware of this already.
Possessions mentioned in the verse I would equate as the general lay brother and sister in the local churches. The local churches are being guarded from influences of any other ministry, so that the possessions remain undisturbed. What happens when the possessions are disturbed? My response, "the sleeper has awakened". In other words the conscience is no longer passive and dormant, but alert and active. No longer could the conscience be duped by positive sounding words.

"I]Besides, how can they be wrong when they're so sincere?[/I]" I'd say go here http://www.mendingministry.com/ and download load the audio link "What if We are decieved?" There's one answer to the question OBW posted.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When did I express incredulity?

I do not want anyone to draw the conclusion that I know what any individual is thinking, but as a rule our conscience will condemn us if we are not walking according to the truth. When you look at the holocaust you discover that many Germans were ashamed of what was going on even though they didn't act. The reality of the holocaust was not that all Germans are monsters, not even that the majority of Germans were monsters,

When you say we all have the same conscience, or that "they all feel" such-and-such ... well ... to me ... that kinda implies that you do know (think you know) what ever'body else is thinkin'.

But maybe that's just me.