Against LSM's Allegorizing

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

And hello to you as well, my dear brother ZNPaaneah. It is good to “see” you again.

Wow! You have obviously given these matters considerable thought and you have asked some very deep and weighty questions. I will certainly do my best to express my understanding of these matters. I must confess that a recent burden of mine has been to return to the simplicity which is in Christ by focusing much more on living a Christ-like life rather than focusing so much on teachings and doctrines. I still consider doctrine important, but I am much more focused on godly living.

With that being said, I do have some thoughts to share. I hope others will share as well. First of all, I definitely do not believe that God manipulated the lives of people like Isaac and Joseph just so that He could produce “types” to give His written Word internal consistency. Nor do I believe that God manipulated the lives of such people just to produce “types” in order for Bible Expositors to have some really cool things to say in their messages! Rather than some merely external reason, I believe that key is found in the unchanging heart and mind of God.

God’s heart and mind have never changed in the sense that, on the deepest level, what He desired and planned for in the Old Testament is the same as what He desired and planned for in the New Testament. What did change, of course, is the means He had at His disposal. In Old Testament times, God had a physical people, united by physical kinship, bearing a physical mark on their bodies (i.e. circumcision). This physical people shared the same physical land, in the midst of which was a physical city with a physical temple where physical sacrifices were offered. This physical people enjoyed God’s physical blessings. In contrast to this, God now has people whose spirits have been reborn, who are united by spiritual kinship, and whose circumcision is spiritual. This spiritual people form a spiritual habitation of God in the many places in which they dwell, and offer up spiritual sacrifices to God. This spiritual people enjoy God’s spiritual blessings.

God is love. That has never changed. In both the Old and New Testament times, God, who is love, desired and planned to have a holy and righteous people who live lives of self-sacrificial love. This desire has never changed. In Old Testament times, God had to work through a physical people and in New Testament times God now works through a spiritual people. Since the desire of God has remained the same, it makes sense that God would bring His physical Old Testament people through essentially the same experiences as His New Testament spiritual people. They really are the same experiences in essence, but they center on two different realms - first physical experiences in the physical realm in the Old Testament, and later spiritual experiences in the spiritual realm in the New Testament.

Take the example of Joseph in the Old Testament. God, the God of love, foresaw the seven terrible years of drought and He knew that multitudes would perish in that drought. Since God is not willing that any perish, He prepared Joseph as a “savior” (in a physical sense, of course) who would “save” many from perishing. In like manner, God is still not willing that any should spiritually perish, so He prepared His Son Jesus Christ as a Savior who would save many from perishing. Since the roles of Joseph and Jesus Christ are parallel, one being a "savior" in a physical sense and one being a Savior in a spiritual sense, it is to be expected that Joseph’s experiences foreshadow the experiences of Jesus Christ. God was sovereign to ensure that Joseph ended up right where he needed to be so that he could be betrayed and sold into slavery by his brothers. How else can we explain that mysterious man in Genesis 37:15-17 who “happened” to know just where Joseph’s brothers were and who “happened” to find Joseph wandering in the field? God definitely “steered” Joseph to his destiny – which was to be sold into slavery in Egypt so that he might rise in rank in Egypt, become Pharaoh's "right-hand-man" in Egypt, and save Egypt (and the surrounding nations) from the seven years of drought. In a similar way, God was sovereign to ensure that Jesus Christ ended up right where He needed to be (Jerusalem) at the right time (Passover) so that Jesus could be betrayed and killed, and then resurrected, thereby becoming “both Lord and Christ” at the right hand of God and a Savior to all who believe in Him.

These are my thoughts regarding the mechanism behind how lives and historical events recorded in the OT are shadows. It is the unchangeable God of love, whose heart and mind has not changed, that is the mechanism. Because His love, His heart, and His mind have not changed, His desire and His plan for His people have not changed. He has always desired and planned to have a holy and righteous people who live lives of self-sacrificial love. Since the goal has remained the same, the path to the goal is essentially the same. Thus, the experiences which His Old Testament people underwent in the physical realm are essentially the same experiences which His New Testament people undergo in the spiritual realm.

Thanks for the careful and thoughtful response. I am not really getting the "physical" versus the "spiritual" concept. Here is what is giving me the hangup, God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, so he loads up the wood and takes his son early to the mtn, and when his son asks where is the lamb he responds "God will provide the lamb". Now that to me is a huge exercise of your faith, which I feel is a spiritual exercise.

Likewise with Joseph interpreting the dreams. I think the dreams were a spiritual language that Joseph was able to understand. Not only did he have them but he could interpret them. But even so, I have always felt that Joseph truly excelled in reconciling his family. It is hard for us to talk about how we are spiritual and they were physical, yet we cannot reconcile the LRC family the way Joseph reconciled his. That to me is truly a huge exercise of faith on his part which again, I feel is a spiritual exercise.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Thanks for the careful and thoughtful response. I am not really getting the "physical" versus the "spiritual" concept. Here is what is giving me the hangup, God tells Abraham to sacrifice his son, so he loads up the wood and takes his son early to the mtn, and when his son asks where is the lamb he responds "God will provide the lamb". Now that to me is a huge exercise of your faith, which I feel is a spiritual exercise.

Likewise with Joseph interpreting the dreams. I think the dreams were a spiritual language that Joseph was able to understand. Not only did he have them but he could interpret them. But even so, I have always felt that Joseph truly excelled in reconciling his family. It is hard for us to talk about how we are spiritual and they were physical, yet we cannot reconcile the LRC family the way Joseph reconciled his. That to me is truly a huge exercise of faith on his part which again, I feel is a spiritual exercise.

Hello again, dear brother ZNPaaneah,

I am sorry that my "physical" vs. "spiritual" language may have confused the issue. My "physical" vs. "spiritual" language was not meant to imply anything beyond the normal distinction between "Old" and "New" which we use everyday when we say "Old Testament" and "New Testament". I certainly did not mean to imply that God's Old Testament people never had any spiritual experiences or that they never exercised faith. Hebrews chapter 11 certainly makes it very clear that there are lots of examples of the exercise of faith in the Old Testament.

I also did not mean to imply that God's New Testament people do not have a very real physical existence on this earth. I was trying to highlight the fact that God's mind and His purpose for His people in both Old Testament times and New Testament times has not changed. What did change, of course, was the means God has at His disposal to accomplish His goal. I believe that God has always desired to have a holy and righteous people who live lives of self-sacrificial love.

If you would, please re-read my original post with this in mind. I hope this will help things, but my original post may still not work for you. That's OK. Please understand that I thought you asked a very heartfelt question and I did my best before the Lord to provide an answer. If my answer is inadequate, and it very well may be, then I pray that someone else will supply the answer you are seeking.

I hear what you are saying about Joseph reconciling his family. It pains my heart to think that the situation with LSM will not be resolved until the Lord returns. One thing LSM has in abundance which I do not see in Joseph's brothers is a terrible spirit of religious jealousy. Both the Bible and Church History show us that dealing with such a terrible spirit is a very, very, difficult thing. May we be those who weep and mourn.