Minister of the Age

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

I would like to take some time to expose the true fallacy of the "Minister of the Age" doctrine, and let me start here - where Lee first raises his demand that there ought only be 'one' for the sake of 'oneness'....

Christ prays to our Father for His Church, in John 17, let us consider what He prays:

"These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."

It has been rightly noted here, and elsewhere, that our Lord Jesus Christ prays for our "Oneness"... and this is has been expounded from the Catholic (Universal) church to the movement of the Plymouth Brethren to the Home church movement of Nee's Little Flock in China, and beyond. But this is not the only thing our Lord prays for in this prayer, for He asks:

1) That all that have been given to Him be given eternal life.

2) That this prayer is not for the World, but ONLY for those given to Him (His Church).

3) That He be glorified in them.

4) That we be One, even as He and the Father are One.

5) That we might have His joy fulfilled in ourselves.

6) That we should not be taken out of the world, but should be kept from evil.

7) That we might be sanctified (set apart, Holy unto God) through the Truth (His Word is Truth).

8) That as Christ is in the Father, and the Father in the Son, that we might be in Him and so be perfected into One for the World to see the Truth.

9) That we may be with Him, where He is.

10) That His love might be in us.

...There is a lot more to this prayer than a simple call to our being One, and the Oneness spoken of here is not a simple thing, as there is a qualifier given along with it: "one, as We are."

How are Christ and the Father one? This goes to the heart of the doctrine of the Trinity, which I do not suppose any man can adequately explain without being labelled by one faction or another as a heretic; the trinity is a truth beyond our ability to grasp or handle with words - although we can take it by faith.

Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

So while we may argue how to adequately define how Christ and the Father are One, we are more likely to agree how Christ and Father are NOT One.

- Christ and the Father are not together under a supreme authority (and by this, we may say someone who brands themselves a "Minister of the Age" would represent a Supreme Authority as much as a Pope would). No, They ARE the Supreme Authority (John 3:35 "The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand." - and so we may rightly declare that Jesus Christ is LORD.)

- Christ and the Father are not together in a hierarchical organization. Again, Colossians 3:11b "Christ is All and in All."

....And so if we agree upon these points, then we must agree that whatever Oneness He prayed for on our behalf, it did not include either the Oneness organized under a supreme authority (beyond His own - for as we read in Ephesians 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body", nor the oneness of an organization under a hierarchy; for we "are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvellous light;" 1 Peter 2:9

So what kind of Oneness did He mean, and how can we accomplish it?

First off, we can't accomplish anything; did not Christ say "I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18b

There have been a thousand arguments launched against the first part of that verse, but I have read none that touch upon this second part. Christ will build His Church, and of that you can be certain.

So if Christ is to build it, then we must look to see how He began it... let us read what came to pass after these things... John 21

Here, in this last chapter of John which seems so oddly out of place at the end of this book, we read of Christ's third appearance to the disciples after His resurrection - when they returned to Galilee to fish. Here He meets them on the shore, and there prepares a meal for them on the beach to speak with them what is on His heart. Read that chapter, and consider: When Peter is called by Christ to follow Him, Peters' response is to turn and see 'the disciple whom Jesus loved', John, following too. "Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou Me." John 21:21-22

Christ did not call the group to continue on as one to follow Him - He called an individual (in this case, Peter) and asked, "What is that to you? You follow Me." Here we see the Church begun, and it is begun in a way we would never expect; a way in which not Peter nor any other apostle is made the head of all things - but we are called as individual disciples to follow Him.

What became of the other disciples? They were not cast aside and disregarded by Christ; nor did they bow to the authority of Peter. They were each individually used; some we know of through Scripture, and some only tradition can tell us of {read Hippolytus of Rome (236 AD), or Eusebius (260-341)}; regardless, He lead each out to do His work and to spread the good news of His Kingdom.

So what happened to the other disciples? Consider what the evidence tells us (both from the perspective of the historical accounts we have and the evidence of the spread of gospel).

1) Andrew

• According to Hippolytus:
  • Andrew preached to the Scythians [modern day Georgia] and Thracians [modern day Bulgaria], and was crucified, suspended on an olive tree, at Patrae, a town of Achaia [Greece]; and there too he was buried.

2) Bartholomew

• According to Hippolytus, Bartholomew preached in India:
  • Bartholomew, again, preached to the Indians, to whom he also gave the Gospel according to Matthew, and was crucified with his head downward, and was buried in Allanum, a town of the great Armenia [modern day southern Georgia].
• Eusebius, in his Church History, confirms the ministry of Bartholomew in India, and adds an eye witness account:
  • "About that time, Pantaenus, a man highly distinguished for his learning, had charge of the school of the faithful in Alexandria... Pantaenus...is said to have gone to India. It is reported that among persons there who knew of Christ, he found the Gospel according to Matthew, which had anticipated his own arrival. For Bartholomew, one of the apostles, had preached to them, and left with them the writing of Matthew in the Hebrew language, which they had preserved till that time." ---- (Book 5, Chapter 10)

3) James, Son of Alphaeus

• Hippolytus identifies that James was stoned to death in Jerusalem:
  • And James the son of Alphaeus, when preaching in Jerusalem, was stoned to death by the Jews, and was buried there beside the temple.

4) James, Son of Zebedee

James was the brother of John, the disciple "that Jesus loved".

• According to the Book of Acts in the New Testament, James was killed by Herod:
  • Act 12:1 And at that time Herod the king threw on his hands to oppress some of those of the church.
    Act 12:2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
• This is confirmed by Hippolytus:
  • James, his brother, when preaching in Judea, was cut off with the sword by Herod the tetrarch, and was buried there.
• Eusebius descibed more precisely what was cut off of James:
  • First Stephen was stoned to death by them, and after him James, the son of Zebedee and the brother of John, was beheaded... (Book 3, Chapter 5)

5) John, brother of James and son of Zebedee

John was one of the few disciples that did not die a cruel death, but of "old age".

• Eusebius discusses the reason that John wrote his Gospel:
  • "Matthew and John have left us written memorials, and they, tradition says, were led to write only under the pressure of necessity...And when Mark and Luke had already published their Gospels, they say that John, who had employed all his time in proclaiming the Gospel orally, finally proceeded to write for the following reason. The three Gospels already mentioned having come into the hands of all and into his own too, they say that he accepted them and bore witness to their truthfulness; but that there was lacking in them an account of the deeds done by Christ at the beginning of his ministry." (Book 3, Chapter 24)
• According to Hippolytus, John was banished by Domitian to the Isle of Patmos, and later died in Ephesus:
  • John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan's time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found.

6) Matthew/Levi

• Eusebius referenced to Bishop Papias of Hierapolis, as early as c. 110 A.D., bearing witness to Matthew's authorship of his gospel:
  • ....Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could." (Eusebius, Book 3, Chapter 39)
• According to Hippolytus:
  • Matthew wrote the Gospel in the Hebrew tongue, and published it at Jerusalem, and fell asleep at Hierees, a town of Parthia.\224 [Parthia is near modern day Tehran]

7) Simon/Peter

• Eusebius, quoting Papias of Hierapolis (c. 110 A.D.), records a tradition that the Gospel of Mark preserved the Gospel as preached by Peter:
  • "Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered.... he accompanied Peter..." ---- (Book 3, Chapter 39)
• Irenaeus (c. 180 A.D.) records a similar tradition, and mentions that Peter and Paul founded the Church in Rome:
  • "Matthew also issued a written Gospel among the Hebrews in their own dialect, while Peter and Paul were preaching at Rome, and laying the foundations of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, did also hand down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter..." ---- (Irenaeus, "Against Heresies", Book 3, Chapter 1)
• Eusebius records that Peter was put to death under Nero in Rome:
  • It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero. This account of Peter and Paul is substantiated by the fact that their names are preserved in the cemeteries of that place even to the present day. ---- (Book 2, Chapter 25)
  (Paul was a Roman citizen can cannot be crucified but got an "easier" death sentence)
• Hippolytus confirmed the fact that Peter was crucified by Nero in Rome:
  • Peter preached the Gospel in Pontus, and Galatia, and Cappadocia, and Betania, and Italy, and Asia, and was afterwards crucified by Nero in Rome with his head downward, as he had himself desired to suffer in that manner.

8) Philip

• According to Hippolytus, Philip preached and was executed in what today is eastern Turkey:
  • Philip preached in Phrygia, and was crucified in Hierapolis with his head downward in the time of Domitian, and was buried there.

9) Simon the Zealot

• According to Hippolytus, Simon the Zealot was the second Bishop of Jerusalem:
  • Simon the Zealot, the son of Clopas, who is also called Jude, became bishop of Jerusalem after James the Just, and fell asleep and was buried there at the age of 120 years.

10) Thaddaeus/Judas son of James

According to Mat 10:3 (KJV): Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus.... Thaddaeus is also known as Lebbaeus.

• Hippolytus records:
  • Jude, who is also called Lebbaeus, preached to the people of Edessa, and to all Mesopotamia, and fell asleep at Berytus, and was buried there.

11) Thomas

• Hippolytus records that Thomas was an active missionary, and that he met his fate in India:
  • And Thomas preached to the Parthians, Medes, Persians, Hyrcanians, Bactrians, and Margians, and was thrust through in the four members of his body with a pine spear at Calamene, the city of India, and was buried there.

the above provided courtesy of http://www.ichthus.info/Disciples/intro.html

These 11 were lead, each independently, to follow our Lord - not eachother. None was under the authority of another; only Christ was their Head. They fellowshipped, they worked together on a common purpose and a Great Commission, and this, my brothers and sisters, this is Oneness. The Oneness of Purpose.

If it were Christ's intent that Oneness were achieved by men, in some way we envision, rather than by a means He meant, surely He would have commanded "build My Church", and not "I will build My Church". Surely He would not have broken up the disciples and sent each on their way to do a work separately, but rather would have kept them together and moving forward; leaving no question as to the succession of one over another. Surely He would have kept them close, knowing the folly to which men are prone - and the endless arguments that would be fought were they not strongly managed: perhaps He would even have left tantalizing clues as to who the next "minister of the age" would be, something like: "and in the latter days I will raise up a man from the east, who will interpret My Word anew and recover my Church from fallen Christendom"... But Christ is Lord, and He is in control. Though Satan wages a war against the Saints, it is a war he has already lost. "The gates of Hell will not prevail against it." Praise the Lord, we will break down the very gates of Hell! Christ WILL build His Church... And He did not build it from Jerusalem only, nor merely from Rome (by whose example Catholics proclaim themselves alone to be the true Church, forgetting entirely the Orthodox churches of the East likewise founded by Christ through the Spirit-inspired proclamation of the gospel by apostles contemporary to those who went to Rome). Brothers and Sisters, whomever and however Christ moved His people, we can know that "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." Matthew 24:14

The "Minister of the Age" delusion is on that leads to extreme exclusivism and separation, not away from it. By abhoring 'denominations' or Christians who don't practice our particular brand of Christianity we must (although perhaps we do not wish to) abhor those genuine members of the body who 'belong' to one; denying that Christ placed them where He did. By insisting upon our denomination (and by denomination, I mean any group or sect that sets itself apart - be that Catholic, Orthodox, Brethren Assembly, two-by-two, Lutheran, Mennonite, Amish, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Methodist, Baptist, etc. etc. etc.), we are being sectarian and cutting off all other members whom Christ Himself has died for to Save. We are to have a Oneness of Purpose, so let us each fulfill that purpose as we are lead to do, where we are lead to do it.

Consider the letters to the Seven Churches as Paul was commanded to write them from Patmos: Whether you believe that these seven letters were written as prophecy (as some contend), to represent the seven ages of the church, or as letters of warning to the seven kinds of churches that exist even today, or as letters to the persons of the Universal Church, for each of us who were called of God to Faith in Jesus Christ to consider, or even to seven historical churches that are no more - there can be no argument: These seven churches, while contemporary, were NOT One; and though Christ offered warning or reprimand to each - HE never urged them to join together as 'One'. He did not call members of one church into another, He did not condemn members of any one church completely (He offered promises to overcomers in EACH of the seven), and He told us plainly that He not only Walks among the Seven, He also Holds the stars of each in His hand.

Let us each preach Christ, wherever we are, as we are called to do brothers and sisters. Let us give Him the throne, and take every thought captive to Him. Let us fellowship as He allows; sharing and receiving that we may water and be watered and plant and be planted; and let God cause the growth. Our God is an awesome God, and His purposes will not be thwarted. He knows what He is doing, and He knows when His ends will be accomplished.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[11of101]

"Und ze penalty for breaking ze Ziegfreid Oath iz Death"

-from The Producers 2005

[Cal]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

How are Christ and the Father one? This goes to the heart of the doctrine of the Trinity, which I do not suppose any man can adequately explain without being labelled by one faction or another as a heretic; the trinity is a truth beyond our ability to grasp or handle with words - although we can take it by faith.

I just wish to note that this little nugget is priceless.

[11of101]

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer.
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer.
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer.
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer.
Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer.........

You will eat Christ, you will obey the ministry, you will conform to Lee.
you will become the echo of Lee's ego.
......................

I wanna be a producer a great big Broadway flop titled "Springtime for Lee und His Recovery". Sometimes you have to go insane to regain sanity. That's why I say ...

"keep it mad, keep it glad , keep it something that will offend the largest majority possible"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by 11of101

Ein Volk, ein Reich, ein Führer.

This was Hitler's slogan to the masses, which translated means ...

"One People, One Empire, One Leader!"

And let me repeat what both secular and church history teaches us, that distorted oneness is one of mankind's greatest evils.