Testimony

I have been in the Church life for 15 years. My spouse and I were looking for a group of believers who were spiritual and unreligious. We were looking for the true believers; People who really loved the Lord. We had enough of religion and doctrine. We had seen fakeness in denominations. We wanted the real place, the place where God wanted us to be. We found it in the LC but as time went on it lost its reality. We realized that we were not growing and we missed the instant speaking of God. We realized that we really couldn't keep up with all of the expectations of the elders. I experienced issues with my conscience. It seemed mixed up somehow. We were afraid that we might love our family too much so we distanced ourselves from one another. We could not communicate with each other because we were supposed to just take the cross. We could not communicate with anyone except members because we felt we knew all of the high truths and what did anyone else know? No one outside of our LC could fellowship with us because, to us they had nothing to add. We could not experience anything new of the Lord because the only thing we could look to was of Witness Lee. Now I am so joyful to see the Lord in the Bible and to hear the Lord speak to me! I do treasure the works of all past lovers of the Lord, but I need to continue and not stop there in my experience. I do love the saints, but I am enjoying so much the portions of all Christians. I feel enlightened to know that the body of Christ is so so much bigger than I had thought for so many years. I feel freedom in Jesus outside of the LC. My marriage is stronger and my family is healthy despite the superstitions that were impressed on me. I am still a Christian and meet with other believers. I have seen other's testimonies on this blog and can see their experiences in mine. It is nice to not feel alone here.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am still a Christian and meet with other believers. I have seen other's testimonies on this blog and can see their experiences in mine. It is nice to not feel alone here.

Thanks so much for your testimony and encouragement! No, you are certainly not alone. Please, when you get a chance, go ahead and register as a member. If for some reason the automated registration process doesn't work for you please email your desired username (cf: "UntoHim") to LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com and then a temporary password will emailed to you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have been in the Church life for 15 years. My spouse and I were looking for a group of believers who were spiritual and unreligious. We were looking for the true believers; People who really loved the Lord. We had enough of religion and doctrine. We had seen fakeness in denominations. We wanted the real place, the place where God wanted us to be. We found it in the LC but as time went on it lost its reality. We realized that we were not growing and we missed the instant speaking of God. We realized that we really couldn't keep up with all of the expectations of the elders. I experienced issues with my conscience. It seemed mixed up somehow. We were afraid that we might love our family too much so we distanced ourselves from one another. We could not communicate with each other because we were supposed to just take the cross. We could not communicate with anyone except members because we felt we knew all of the high truths and what did anyone else know? No one outside of our LC could fellowship with us because, to us they had nothing to add. We could not experience anything new of the Lord because the only thing we could look to was of Witness Lee. Now I am so joyful to see the Lord in the Bible and to hear the Lord speak to me! I do treasure the works of all past lovers of the Lord, but I need to continue and not stop there in my experience. I do love the saints, but I am enjoying so much the portions of all Christians. I feel enlightened to know that the body of Christ is so so much bigger than I had thought for so many years. I feel freedom in Jesus outside of the LC. My marriage is stronger and my family is healthy despite the superstitions that were impressed on me. I am still a Christian and meet with other believers. I have seen other's testimonies on this blog and can see their experiences in mine. It is nice to not feel alone here.

Dear Guest,

You are definitely not alone. Many of us can understand exactly how you feel, because we too were there. I left the LC about 5 years ago, and since then, except for this forum of former members, I have never met another Christian who could remotely understand anything I had been through. I was like an alien from another planet, when it came to past church experiences.

Your comment, "We realized that we really couldn't keep up with all of the expectations of the elders," caught my attention. This was a very real frustration for my wife and I. It was almost like the elders lacked all appreciation for all my service, and were disgusted with my inability to produce more under their leadership. This is because they had basically received the same treatment from TC, during their numerous trips to Cleveland. I often was amazed at how little the elders appreciated the numerous talents we had locally, all the while extolling the "great men of God" in Cleveland. Of course, in the early days, the same comments were made about the leadership in Anaheim. Even though we had a name that we were "local," the fact is that we were anything but local.

That said, some of the most precious brothers I have ever met were or are in the LC's. So many devoted and self-sacrificing brothers and sisters were a part of our lives. In the early days, we would say that we had no use for "systematized theology" only to realize later that we were inundated with that very thing we rejected.

Welcome to the forum. Your input is very valuable to the rest of us.

What did TC teach that was different? How does one become an overcomer? What happens if you are not one? What have I learned that may not be accurate?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

....What have I learned that may not be accurate?

That is a question we all need to ask ourselves, daily. The enemy is very very subtle. It doesn't take more than a little poison to contaminate a life-giving well.

Stay in the Word, and call on the Lord. Our Christian journey isn't one of exclusive enjoyment and feasting. It was never that way. We are being conformed to His image - and His life was not an easy life... but yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil - for Thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me...

I believe the ministry taught that the rod was for beating the sheep who would wander (do I recall that correctly?)... But this wasn't what the shepherd used the rod for. The Shepherd loved the sheep, he put his life on the line for them... The rod was for the wolves; and the crook of the staff for the leading of the sheep.

He will continue to lead you, will you trust Him enough to follow? He lead me into the ministry to show me something - something worth loving and longing and working for. He lead me out of the LSM church when I'd seen enough to know the vision could not become a reality in the current environment. Lord, build up Your Church.

Amen

[OBW]

Good response, NFNL. I would expand on these two sentences:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Stay in the Word, and call on the Lord.

Staying in the Word is not only a solitary thing. Neither it is a closed thing. Be in the word and consider what others have found there. Do not be closed to differing thoughts or interpretations. If God wants to speak to us in it but we reject the very sound of the thing he has to say, then we have not really been in the Word — just around it.

I am a little concerned with this one phrase:

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

He lead me into the ministry . . .

This makes it seem that "ministry" is the private domain of Lee and the LRC. This is far from the truth. Ministry is found all around us. It comes in ways that we appreciate and sometimes in ways that we do not appreciate. To others, the preference might be reversed. Do we dare say that the others are not "ministry" or that theirs is somehow inferior?

Besides, if that one truly was "the ministry" then we would not be lead away from it except by the evil one.

And while I'm not sure that we can go this far, I wonder sometimes how many seem convinced that the very fact that they were ever in the LRC, under Lee's ministry, was some leading of God and not a distraction from the evil one appearing as an angel of light. We think that other religious, even Christian groups can be this, but not the LRC. We think that because we had a positive sense while there that it was not just fooling around with our emotions for the purpose of feeding us junk along side any good that might be.

Why do we think we were not deceived but those poor Lutherans are? They were not lead to believe that they were following the minister of the age, the 4th of the 4-in-one. They were not taught that they were the chosen elect standing as a representative for all those other poor, broken, damaged Christians. And they don't seem to need to be lead away from it like many in the LRC are.

Maybe we were actually the ones who were captured in an error, and have now been rescued from it. Maybe we just don't like thinking that we were fooled into joining an error. It is too easy to think that it is the Anglicans, the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Baptists, the Church of Christ, the Brethren, the Lutherans, the Reformed, even the Catholics — in short, every one but us — that was fooled into error. Never crossed our minds that we were fooled. And some of what we have retained as "better teachings" may not actually be so. We just may have not yet gotten the garlic out of our nostrils.

No. It was God's mercy that he brought us somewhere that he eventually had to bring us out of. (When I reread this, I missed my own sarcasm. This is somewhat of a mockery of our thinking. I even once thought it. I could never go back, but I had this "rich teaching" that no one else had.)

I'm now less high on myself as incapable of having been fooled.

"Hi, I'm Mike. I am a recovering cult member."
"Hi, Mike."

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am a little concerned with this one phrase:
This makes it seem that "ministry" is the private domain of Lee and the LRC. This is far from the truth. Ministry is found all around us. It comes in ways that we appreciate and sometimes in ways that we do not appreciate. To others, the preference might be reversed. Do we dare say that the others are not "ministry" or that theirs is somehow inferior?

Amen brother, thanks for catching that. You know those old LSM buzz words still can slip easily from the tongue - or fingers - I certainly didn't mean to imply that I still have this thought (about LSM's particular brand of Christianity being 'the' ministry... I'm just working out the proper language.

Allow me to re-phrase, "He lead me into the LSM local church...."

...As for why I believe that, let me refer back to my original introductory post, from my testimony: I was Saved outside of a fellowship with any other believer. Anyone. I've been a lone Christian for most of my Christian life. I distrusted ALL other Christians. This isn't healthy; it's even dangerous. I needed to see what I needed; to belong in the Body, and not apart from it.

These saints may be fooled, but that makes them foolish saints, not damned souls. I need fellowship. I crave it. It should be about love; about even sharing the truth in love.

Like I said, the vision does not match the reality... and as long as the truth is concealed, it always will. The enemy is the only one who gains by deception.

"Hi Mike, I'm Ray... I'm still struggling, but I haven't met with the LSM Local Church in almost four months."

In Christ,


NeitherFirstnorLast

[OBW]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Amen brother, thanks for catching that. You know those old LSM buzz words still can slip easily from the tongue - or fingers - I certainly didn't mean to imply that I still have this thought (about LSM's particular brand of Christianity being 'the' ministry... I'm just working out the proper language.

Allow me to re-phrase, "He lead me into the LSM local church...."

...As for why I believe that, let me refer back to my original introductory post, from my testimony: I was Saved outside of a fellowship with any other believer. Anyone. I've been a lone Christian for most of my Christian life. I distrusted ALL other Christians. This isn't healthy; it's even dangerous. I needed to see what I needed; to belong in the Body, and not apart from it.

These saints may be fooled, but that makes them foolish saints, not damned souls. I need fellowship. I crave it. It should be about love; about even sharing the truth in love.

Like I said, the vision does not match the reality... and as long as the truth is concealed, it always will. The enemy is the only one who gains by deception.

"Hi Mike, I'm Ray... I'm still struggling, but I haven't met with the LSM Local Church in almost four months."

It is too true how the old terminology still creeps in. I've been out sing August, 1987, and I still slip into it on occasion. The only LRC meetings of any kind I have been to since then would be the weddings of a couple of nephews and my mother's funeral. And I still slip back from time to time in my speaking.

[Abounding]

Thank you for your responses. I enjoyed reading them. I think that your point is to just go to the Bible for my questions and to listen to everyone's interpretations. I think that you are right. I am ready to see the Bible for myself and without veils. I kind of feel like if you are always looking at someone else's interpretation, you are veiled. I am curious about other peoples ideas, however, especially regarding the trinity and the end times.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Abounding

Thank you for your responses. I enjoyed reading them. I think that your point is to just go to the Bible for my questions and to listen to everyone's interpretations. I think that you are right. I am ready to see the Bible for myself and without veils. I kind of feel like if you are always looking at someone else's interpretation, you are veiled. I am curious about other peoples ideas, however, especially regarding the trinity and the end times.

Welcome Abounding!

Like you, we have many "questions" since stepping away from the teachings of WL. Since 2005, my wife and I have met with numerous other Christian groups, getting feedback and insight into others' points of view. We also have friends and family in LSM LC's, GLA LC's, and now ex-LSM/GLA LC's. It has been our intention all along to "prove all things, Hold on to what is good." (I Thess 5.21)

We are constantly weighing the value of their diverse teachings. The Bible is our unique and only standard. Many things we received from WL have been discarded, however, many more things we have retained, and even treasure, not because they are from him, but because they are from the Lord. I am still grateful for all the positive spiritual help I received from WL, TC, and so many others in the LC's, but let's not be fooled -- their ministries came with many "extras."

It's these many "extras," some obvious and some obscure, that we desire to be purged of. They have become the present day "leaven of the Pharisees."

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Abounding

I am curious about other peoples ideas, however, especially regarding the trinity and the end times.

I know there are some that disagree with me. But in terms of carrying out our mission in this life on this earth, a detailed understanding of both the trinity and the end times is not particularly helpful. In fact, I generally pose the notion that the end times will be what they will be and if we are ready, it won't matter whether we did or did not have it figured out. The same can be said of the trinity. In fact, anywhere that there is a command with a promise, it has nothing to do with our understanding of anything, but in our obedience in action. And even if study is required to figure out what it is we are to do, you don't "do" the trinity or the end times, so not as important a study as some think it should be.

That being said, I have engaged in discussions relating to the trinity, although it has mostly been with the view to moderating the kind of "I've got it now" attitudes that some have. I believe strongly in the trinity. But its importance as a doctrine is not that great to me. It is the actual God, referred to as One, and as Three, that is important. And it is not so important to get it straight. It is important to believe in that God.

And I am not trying to just hedge my bets about what is the right answer. Or hide a differing opinion on what is correct. Instead, I'm willing to believe quite strongly what I believe, but be willing to accept variations in that belief without judgment. Same with pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and pan-trib beliefs.

And don't get me started on the hypothetical "will we be able to fly around" questions that people so excessively focused on the next life seem to start in on. Or Lee's "it's all about constantly falling prostrate." I don't dismiss them. I try to avoid the subject so that it isn't some kind of elephant in the room. It isn't one for me. But too often is for those who really get into that stuff.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by OBW

I know there are some that disagree with me. But in terms of carrying out our mission in this life on this earth, a detailed understanding of both the trinity and the end times is not particularly helpful.

I agree with you there, Brother. Daniel was very troubled by what he saw regarding the times of the end... but the Lord said to him:

Daniel 12:4a "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time...."

John likewise, in His vision of the Lord on Patmos was told:

Revelation 10:4 "When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."

His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. Some things are meant to be a mystery...

1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."

...Only the "Great Gurus" claim to have it all figured out. That is a tremendous claim for any human being on Earth to make, and a sure indication that they're either deluded or they're lying...

...As I've said before, we are Saved by Grace through Faith, and not by intelligence through understanding. If we demand understanding, then we are not living by Faith at all, are we?

All that said, there is nothing wrong with discussing what we believe, what we have seen in Scripture, and what is our Great Hope... But, as Mike has pointed out, we ought be careful not to let disagreement over matters which surely have been given multiple plausible interpretations, a reason for strife and division.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[ZNPaaneah]

Well I think we need a little balance here. There are many verses throughout both the Old and New Testament concerning the end times, there are many significant quotes from Jesus, Paul, John and Peter. Clearly the Lord and these apostles felt these words were very significant. I have always felt that it strengthens your faith and increases your appreciation for the Lord when you see how clear His vision was of the last 2,000 years. I don't think the goal is to "try and figure it out" as you should quickly learn that the fundamental factor in the equation is your relationship with the Lord. Rather I think the result of my study is to trust the Lord. As you see these things taking place you realize, OK, the Lord told me this was going to happen, He saw this 2,000 years ago, so maybe instead of panicking I should trust Him instead.

As for the trinity I feel that this topic is "radioactive" in that regardless of how you think the prophecies concerning the end time should be interpreted it is generally not considered heresy, but on the other hand it is very difficult to sum up your understanding of the Triune God without someone shouting heresy. So, instead I prefer to just quote the verses from the Bible and leave it at that.

[countmeworthy]

AMEN NeitherFirstnorLast !
EXCELLENT response !

I agree with you there, Brother. Daniel was very troubled by what he saw regarding the times of the end... but the Lord said to him:
Daniel 12:4a "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time...."

And the time of the end has arrived ! GOD the Father is opening the eyes of our understanding through His WORD, His Son and His HOLY SPIRIT

John likewise, in His vision of the Lord on Patmos was told:

As I've said before, we are Saved by Grace through Faith, and not by intelligence through understanding. If we demand understanding, then we are not living by Faith at all, are we?

While I don't think we are to "Demand" understanding, surely we can ask and it will be given to us. Daniel prayed and asked the Lord to give him understanding and interpretration of Nebu's dreams. The Lord granted his request ! That said, you are absolutely correct we are saved by Faith through His Grace and NOT by human intellect of understanding the Word of God. But GOD does give us Revelation and Understanding of the scriptures as we study the Word prayerfully.

Again GREAT POST ! I haven't been here in a while. I believe the Spirit led me here today. To God be all the Glory and Praise with Thanksgiving.

Carol

[OBW]

I have this sense that my position relating to the trinity and the end times is not truly understood.

God. I believe that God is One and God is Three in a manner that can only be described as mysterious. I believe that God is One. This means that everything about God is from a single unity. There is no possibility of conflict as in some kind of committee. But at the same time, there is something about God that is revealed as Three — not just different aspects at different times, but at the same time. And seen/heard simultaneously. And yet the reality of the Three to us is that certain aspects of what He is to us are wrapped up in the Father, other aspects in the Son, and yet other aspects in the Spirit. And while we like the term "person" to talk about each of these three because it describes our relationship with Him/Them, it also places, in our minds, a limit on who and what God really is. The One God (or is it merely the Father, or as is indicated elsewhere, the Son) hears our prayers. All our prayers. At the same time. Whether it is the One God or the Father or the Son, the "multitasking" on just this one activity is mind-boggling. If the One, or one of the Three can do this, it pretty much evidences that One without the aspects of being Three could do everything that is described throughout scripture as our God. And do it all at once, including walk, speak form heaven, and swoop down as a dove. I see no need for Three. And yet that is how God is described, or more correctly how he describes himself. Because of that one fact, I accept that the trinity, no matter how poorly we truly understand it, puts most of what we can discern concerning God into a single, albeit complicated doctrine.

And yet not understanding the trinity does not change God or me. And for that reason, I think that getting too argumentative about exactly what it is distracts us from our true purpose and calling.

End Times. I believe that Christ is returning. I believe that the book of Revelation shows, in a combination of types, metaphors, pictures, allegories, etc., something of how it progresses until everything is accomplished. Where and how it all happens, though, is not clearly laid out. Some argue over what is the true meaning of a certain horse, or a certain seal. Some think that the book runs from start to finish. Others that it gives a chronology then goes back to fill in somewhat random details. I accept most of it in keeping with some of the best minds on the subject. And at the same time I am comfortable that I, and they, do not have it all figured out. The most important thing about the revelation in Revelation, is to make it clear that it is not just about this life and it is over. It gives some legs to justice and righteousness. And at the same time, it doesn't really tell us much for all the words written. Except to be graphic in telling us that it is coming.

But whether it will play out as one camp thinks, or as another thinks, or some combination, there will be an end. Some of it is clearly earthly. Some of it seems heavenly. And some of it is not clear either way. But when I read the verses mentioned throughout the OT and NT (excluding Revelation) I do not find a need to understand the end times, but a need to know that there is an end times. There is a culmination of this age. It is more than the burn-out of our sun. It does provide a push toward righteousness and obedience, which is the evidence of watchfulness.

And this will seem a little odd to be coming from one who is as mental as me, but a lot of what we think about God, or the end times, that gives us those senses of joy is in having mental knowledge about something more clearly than before. I'm not saying that is bad. But is knowing in the sense of a mental realization as important as putting legs to the knowledge? Sometimes the knowing will put legs to it because it will lead us to freedom in some area in which we found ourselves at least partly bound. But if all we can point to is a better vocabulary, or a better road map of a future that we will get through according to its reality whether we understand it now or not, then our reading, studying, and ultimately knowledge are not really very important.

Jesus did not tell anyone to know the details of the end times. But he made it clear that there will be, for each of us, an end that comes at an uncertain time. He said to be watching. That did not mean to constantly be saying " is it now? Is it now? . . ." It meant to be in a condition that is ready to face it. When one is taken and the other left behind, it is not because one is looking for it, but because one is living right and is therefore ready and in the proper condition. If a scoffer realizes that Christ is returning and is looking for it, what is that? Satan is looking for it. It will do him no good. Looking for it — watching — is not about trying to figure out signs. It is more importantly about being prepared for it at all times. This is the important thing. If I am prepared, I do not need to understand the details of what is to come. I just need to remain prepared.

So I am not saying "Don't think about the trinity or the end times." I'm saying to be aware of what is important in them and be prepared. To take in the grace, mercy, and love of God, and as a result obey. To know that there is more than this life, so be ready. And to know that we are not guaranteed 70 or more years in which to get ready. That is much more important than understanding what is the gathering of the wheat and the grapes. Or the four horsemen. Or the seals. Or the precise relationship of the Three and the One.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Abounding

Thank you for your responses. I enjoyed reading them. I think that your point is to just go to the Bible for my questions and to listen to everyone's interpretations. I think that you are right. I am ready to see the Bible for myself and without veils. I kind of feel like if you are always looking at someone else's interpretation, you are veiled. I am curious about other peoples ideas, however, especially regarding the trinity and the end times.

So let's discuss "the end times".

Matt 24 "15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:"

I consider these verses the "fire alarm" of the age. Both Paul and Jesus tell us this, and it is clearly referencing Daniel, so we get this prophecy from three sources. Based on Daniel, it seems very clear that the Temple will be rebuilt, and then the "abomination of desolation" (the antichrist?) will take over. However, in some of the verses on this it is not clear that the Temple will occupy the exact same amount of space that it once did, it seems they may have to compromise on the outer court, perhaps sharing space with the mosque that is on the temple mount.

So the rebuilding of the temple should be viewed as a major sign of the end of this age.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So the rebuilding of the temple should be viewed as a major sign of the end of this age.

Good evening brother,

As I said, I believe there are many plausible interpretations of Scripture...

I had said once, on another thread, that the Lord has really put a love in my heart for the children of the Tribe of Judah. There was a time when I followed the news from Arutz Sheva (www.arutzsheva.com) daily, seeking news from Israel, watching the Lords move. Surely I see the Lords hand in the miraculous victory of Israel in the Six Day War... and even their survival throughout history, as so many antichrists sought to exterminate them: from Claudius Nero to Adolf Hitler, and beyond. I have wept reading the testimonies of Jews who have come to know Jesus Christ as Lord (www.jewsforjesus.com), or to hear the testimonies of others who formerly served Satan - but whose eyes and hearts were opened to the Truth of the Word, and, falling to their knees in repentance, were renewed and remade and came to love His people too... men like Walid Shoebat (www.shoebat.com). By the way, I must say that Joel Richardson's "The Islamic Antichrist" was a book that really opened my eyes to so much of what the Enemy is openly doing in this age, to achieve his ends...

For many men throughout the ages, this rebuilding of the Temple has been considered "the sign" to watch for. Indeed, even now, there is a group in Jerusalem who has already been remaking the vestments and accoutrements required for the Temple Sacrifices.... and they have been absolutely meticulous. They have remade these things precisely as the ancient Scriptures tell them to. Do you know you can go and see them (www.templemount.org) ? Yeshivas have been raised up across Israel to train young Levites to serve in the Temple, in preparation for it's construction.... but there are issues.

To the Jews, for the Temple to rebuilt, it must be rebuilt EXACTLY as it was, and EXACTLY where it was. The Temple also requires the Ark of the Covenant: And the Lord has not revealed where (or if) that Ark still rests on Earth. Then of course, there is the issue raised not only by Secular Jews but by jihadists and militants who will kill to keep Jews from the Temple Mount - at any cost. Today, the Waqf is in charge of the Temple Mount - they police it, and they often do not permit Jews to go there. Jews found praying on the Temple Mount are beaten, and arrested... and Israel's police do not stand up to them. In truth, the International Community will not allow it... the powers and principalities really won't allow it. These are the practical issues; which the Lord can easily overcome... but:

Does the Lord want a Third Temple? Christ told us the Body is the Temple; not a building. Christ Himself was the perfect Sacrifice that put an end to all of the sacrifices... will God the Father honor a Third Temple that replaces Christ with old types and figures? A Temple that rejects God the Son, and denies Christ Himself? Is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of in the Holy Place really a monstrous thing that will happen in a Third Temple, or could this mean something else entirely?

I'm not saying I have the answer to that question, but I say it's a question that begs an answer...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

men like Walid Shoebat (www.shoebat.com). By the way, I must say that Joel Richardson's "The Islamic Antichrist" was a book that really opened my eyes to so much of what the Enemy is openly doing in this age, to achieve his ends...

...

Hey Neither,
I have several of Walid's books. His book "God's war on Terror" is his best imho. I have seen Walid in person about 3 times and met him once. His explanation of the Anti-christ coming from Islam was a super eyeopener which made absolute sense to me. He also does a very good job of explaining who the countries of the OT are today and explaining the meaning of mountains to kingdoms.

I have been wanting to get Joel Richardson's book, the Islamic Antichrist. I just finished reading Joel Rosenberg's "The 12th Imam". If I didn't know as much as I do about Islam and the Mahdi, I would have mostly likely been 'wowed' by his fictionalized book. It was good but not great, imho. I hope Richardson's will be more insightful to me. Rosenberg's book "the 12th Imam" is the start of a new series. Imo, the "Ezekiel Option" was the best of his first series. I loved that book and read it 3 times !

I also have been gathering a much greater understanding of the Nephelim spoken of in Genesis 6 through LA Marzulli's teachings and Clarence Larkin. I used to think the scriptures in Matthew 24 which say "As it was in the days of Noah so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man" simply meant the last days of time as we know would be filled with violence and wickedness. I thought that was why God destroyed the earth with a flood.

But a closer look at Genesis 6 reveals it talks about the Sons of God marrying the daughters of men. Their offspring were giants or Nephelim. They were hybrids produced by the intercourse of fallen angels and sinful women. That is why GOD really destroyed the earth. They were exceedingly wicked and evil and were trying to populate the earth. What I have also learned is when the nephelim were destroyed, it was their bodies that died in the flood. Their disembodied spirits became demons. This is why demons need an object or a body whether human or animal to reside in. They are disembodied spirits looking for bodies to habitate in.

I have learned the "sons of God" in the OT refer to angels and the Sons of God in the NT referred to the Redeemed, born again believers in Jesus Christ, our Lord.

So...in the last days, Nephelim will be on the earth again. I think they will most likely be seen during the Great Tribulation, that is the last 3 1/2 yrs before the Christ's second coming with His armies at the Battle of Armaggeddon. This is why there reports of alien abductions and UFO sightings are increasing. Fallen angels are at work again trying to breed with humans. As true believers, we know there is 'supernatural' Power in the Name of Jesus and in the Power of His Blood. No weapon formed against us will prosper. This scripture does not mean we won't go through tests, trials and tribulations. We will overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the WORD of our Testimony.

I have also learned Hitler was very much into the occult. The Roswell UFO crash in Roswell NM occured in 1947. There is now proof it indeed was a UFO 'ship' that crashed and alien bodies were found. But the more interesting part is that Hitler's reign released an extra amount of demonic activity. All this right before Israel is re-born as a Nation.

Israel is God's time piece the Return of Jesus is at hand.

I have also learned the 2nd coming of Christ is divided into 2 stages. The first stage is the Rapture of the Bride of Christ. [I am not going to speculate or discuss who make up the Bride of Christ that is whether the Bride is composed of all believers or the 'overcomers'.]

The second stage where every eye does actually SEE Christ is at the Battle of Armaggeddon.

In between the rapture and the 2nd coming is 7 yrs of Tribulation, or the 70 weeks of Daniel. That is also divided into 2 'stages'. While the first 3 1/2 yrs is part of the Tribulation period, the last 3 1/2 years is the GREAT Tribulation.

There are different viewpoints. This I understand. But through much prayer, seeking the Lord for Wisdom and Understanding, I believe this view. It is the view that makes total sense to me based on the Word of God.

In my next post, I'll explain how I came to this conclusion.

Blessings, Wisdom, Spiritual Insight and Understanding from God above to all the saints in Christ.

Carol

Jesus IS coming soon !!! Praise our Wonderful Lord.

Carol

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Does the Lord want a Third Temple? Christ told us the Body is the Temple; not a building. Christ Himself was the perfect Sacrifice that put an end to all of the sacrifices... will God the Father honor a Third Temple that replaces Christ with old types and figures? A Temple that rejects God the Son, and denies Christ Himself? Is the Abomination of Desolation spoken of in the Holy Place really a monstrous thing that will happen in a Third Temple, or could this mean something else entirely?

I'm not saying I have the answer to that question, but I say it's a question that begs an answer...

I would have to answer "yes" to this question, for a couple reasons. Firstly, the scripture speaks of it prophetically as ZNP has noted. Also, God's covenant to Abraham is in two parts, one heavenly (stars in heaven) and one earthly (sand on shore.)

Soon, I believe, the "time of the Gentiles" will elapse, and Israel will have their "time" once again. The Third Temple will reject His Son initially until He returns, and then they will "look on Him whom they have pierced." Israel will repent when they see Him again, seeing the signs and wonders which will then occur. God will thus be faithful to all his promises of old.

I do believe that the millennial kingdom will have both earthly and heavenly temples, God completing his "parallel" works throughout man's history. The earthly explaining the heavenly. Israel will then teach the nations how to worship God. I do believe that the situation of the future will be far more complicated than many teachers portray, i.e. just "heaven and hell."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Soon, I believe, the "time of the Gentiles" will elapse, and Israel will have their "time" once again.

Yes, this age began about the same time the temple was destroyed, at least if you want to take the rending of the veil as a sign of God's ultimate judgement on the temple (similar to WL analogy to a chicken and the eggshell). So the crucifixion of Christ and the destruction of the Temple coincide, likewise the resuscitation of the antichrist and the rebuilding of the temple also may coincide.

[Ohio]

ZNP, do you think that the resuscitation of the Beast and the abomination of desolation coincide? Therefore, the rebuilding of the temple will precede this by a few years, and it will coincide with the peace pact they sign?
.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, do you think that the resuscitation of the Beast and the abomination of desolation coincide? Therefore, the rebuilding of the temple will precede this by a few years, and it will coincide with the peace pact they sign?

Well, we stray a little from precisely what the NT says clearly, so I won't say believe, but think.

I think the Antichrist will be a world figure that helps Israel rebuild their temple, and I think this will be ostensibly based on his interest in architecture. I expect this will be an unpopular position to take and might explain his assassination and resuscitation. So yes, it would be very possible that the resuscitation coincides very neatly with the dedication of the rebuilt temple.

I know some argue that the Temple is supposed to be a prefab building and so the construction can take place rapidly. I find it implausible that the construction could take less than 6 months, whereas the assassination and resuscitation should probably take a weekend.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would have to answer "yes" to this question, for a couple reasons. Firstly, the scripture speaks of it prophetically as ZNP has noted. Also, God's covenant to Abraham is in two parts, one heavenly (stars in heaven) and one earthly (sand on shore.)

Soon, I believe, the "time of the Gentiles" will elapse, and Israel will have their "time" once again. The Third Temple will reject His Son initially until He returns, and then they will "look on Him whom they have pierced." Israel will repent when they see Him again, seeing the signs and wonders which will then occur. God will thus be faithful to all his promises of old.

I do believe that the millennial kingdom will have both earthly and heavenly temples, God completing his "parallel" works throughout man's history. The earthly explaining the heavenly. Israel will then teach the nations how to worship God. I do believe that the situation of the future will be far more complicated than many teachers portray, i.e. just "heaven and hell."

I agree with you Ohio. Very Good explanation !!!

I've discovered The book of Revelation is mostly the revealing of the Messiah Jesus Christ to the JEWS. The condition of the church is addressed in chs. 2-3. We don't read about it from chs. 6-19. During this time frame God is looking after Israel. We don't hear about the church again until ch 19 when she comes with Christ as His Army to fight the Battle of Armaggeddon.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I agree with you Ohio. Very Good explanation !!!

I've discovered The book of Revelation is mostly the revealing of the Messiah Jesus Christ to the JEWS. The condition of the church is addressed in chs. 2-3. We don't read about it from chs. 6-19. During this time frame God is looking after Israel. We don't hear about the church again until ch 19 when she comes with Christ as His Army to fight the Battle of Armaggeddon.

Thank you! It's nice to see you again.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Abounding

Thank you for your responses. I enjoyed reading them. I think that your point is to just go to the Bible for my questions and to listen to everyone's interpretations. I think that you are right. I am ready to see the Bible for myself and without veils. I kind of feel like if you are always looking at someone else's interpretation, you are veiled. I am curious about other peoples ideas, however, especially regarding the trinity and the end times.

Matt 24: 37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

This verse likens the end times to "the days" of Noah. Please note, Jesus didn't say today would be like the "time" of Noah, which it isn't, but like the "days" of Noah. For example, the day Noah learned that the world as he knew it would be wiped out in a flood, the day God told him to build a boat, the day he put all the animals in the boat, the day it began to rain, etc.

I have talked to people who don't believe that the story of Noah is true. Imagine what the odds are that history would repeat itself if it never even happened in the first place. Yet, here we are, only the second time in recorded history where man is actually building "an ark" to preserve all of the creatures to survive the end times. And we also have the same "days". There was the day that Time magazine made the Earth the man of the year for the very reason that so many creatures were going extinct. There was the day that man began to set up seed banks and DNA banks, comparing them to Noah's ark, etc.

Personally I am very impressed that Teddy Roosevelt had the foresight to create national parks and try to preserve nature at the turn of the century, but compared to Jesus who saw this 2,000 years ago, what is that?

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Soon, I believe, the "time of the Gentiles" will elapse, and Israel will have their "time" once again. The Third Temple will reject His Son initially until He returns, and then they will "look on Him whom they have pierced." Israel will repent when they see Him again, seeing the signs and wonders which will then occur. God will thus be faithful to all his promises of old.

Brother Ohio,

I see that there appears to be agreement amongst those posting here that the third Temple must be rebuilt for this prophecy to be fulfilled... I too once held this view; but I am not sure of it anymore.

There are a number of reasons for this - The first reason being spiritual: I cannot believe that any sacrifice offered up in any third Temple would itself not be an abomination in the eyes of God - for it would represent a rejection of His all-atoning sacrifice for His people everywhere. The teaching that has us all waiting with baited breath for construction to begin on a third Temple also keeps our eyes off the place where the abomination of desolation is already occuring, or beginning to... right here in the real Temple of God, the Body of Christ on Earth, the Church.

I have heard it said that were Satan with us today in the flesh, you would find him not in a brothel, not in a drug den, nor in a slaughter house - but rather you would find him behind a pulpit, expounding the Word of God with a clever and fatal twist. Satan is a Liar, and the father of them (John 8:44), and his desire has ever been to ascend above the heights of the clouds, to be like the Most High (Isaiah 14:14). The only place he can possibly attempt to do that is from within, not from without God's chosen Temple. He will attempt to decieve even the elect, were it possible (Matthew 24:24)... and how else could he deceive the elect, but to present himself as one of them?

"I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtlety, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
For if he that comes preaches another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if you receive another spirit, which you have not received, or another gospel, which you have not accepted, you might bear with him...
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as ministers of righteousness..."(2 Cor 11:3-4,13-15).

Satan DOES despise the Jew - and to the Jew, who is of the Tribe of Judah, much has been promised... but the Jew in this age, the age of the Church, is not able to raise up a Temple to God, for we ARE the Temple.

The second reason I must reconsider this interpretation of the prophecies lies in another matter I touched on in the thread on Israel; and that is this: The Israel of today is NOT historical Israel, it is historical Judah.

Israel, or Jacob as the Lord also refers to it in His Word, is made up of the twelve tribes named for Jacob/Israel's twelve sons. These twelve tribes are:

Asher
Benjamin
Dan
Gad
Issachar
Joseph* (Manasseh and Ephraim)
Judah
Levi
Naphtali
Reuben
Simeon
Zebulun

As we read the Chronicles and the Book of Kings, we see that while David united these tribes under his reign, and Solomon maintained the unity - the Kingdom actually fell apart under Solomon's heir, Rehoboam (1 Kings chapter 12). Rehoboam would retain the kingship over Judah and Benjamin, but Jeroboam was crowned King of the remaining tribes of Israel. When Rehoboam wanted to attack the Israelites for their treachery (as he saw it), the Lord spoke to him through Shemaiah the man of God - saying "You shall not go up to wage war with your brothers, the children of Israel. Every man return to his house, for this matter is of Me."

The Lord Himself caused this division - and not because one King or one people was more true than the other - both Jeroboam and Rehoboam were corrupt. However, the Lord was working something in this division, and I believe it is for something grander than we could imagine, were we only to read of the accounts in the histories of these people.

These two nations, Israel and Judah, continued alongside one another with periodic exchanges of hostilities; and the Lord permitted this for a time... but then He raised up prophets against Israel:

Hosea 8:9-10

For they have gone up to Assyria like a wild donkey wandering alone. Ephraim has sold herself to lovers.

Although they have sold themselves among the nations, I will now gather them together. They will begin to waste away under the oppression of the mighty king.

Hosea 11:5

He shall not return to the land of Egypt;But the Assyrian shall be his king,Because they refused to repent.

Assyria began invading and conquering parts of Israel in 740 BCE where the tribes of Reuben, Gad, and eastern half-tribe of Manasseh were carried captive to Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan (I Chronicles 5:26; II Kings 15:29).
The nearly twenty year charge was finished in 722 BCE with the destruction of Samaria, the capital of the Northern Kingdom (II Kings 17:3-6). A mere 27,290 captives were deported from Samaria (certainly much less than the number deported in the previous 19 years). Israel was no more, and Judah was already under siege on it's own.

Of the Children of Israel, God spoke through Amos saying "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth" Amos 9:9

In Hosea 3:4-5 He says "the Israelites shall live many a day long without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without image or household gods: but after that they will again seek the Lord their God and David their king, and turn anxiously to the Lord for his bounty in days to come."

So Israel is scattered among the nations, even "sown" amongst the nations - and as sown seed she will grow. But Judahs fate is different. Judah will be taken captive by Nebuchadnezzar, and brought to Babylon for to wait 70 years in captivity, before their release and return to the wasted ruin of Jerusalem.

Judah returns from Babylon - and not all of the Jews taken, for many remain behind, having grown accustomed to the only life this generation has ever known... but Israel does not return. Where is it?

The Lord says, in Ezekial 37:19 "'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph--which is in Ephraim's hand--and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah's stick, making them a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand."

This prophecy speaks of a future time, when Israel (which, after the split between Rehoboam and Jeroboam, was dominated by Ephraim in fulfillment of the prophecy spoken by Jacob - wherein he said Ephraim would rule a "multitude of nations") is rejoined to Judah.

Where did Christ come from? He came from Galilee, yes, and born in Bethlehem and raised in Nazareth - but he was of the Roman province of Judea - conquered Judah. In Christ's day, he was called a Jew, and lived amongst the Jews. This was not Israel... but He spoke of these lost Israelites... do you remember it? I believe He alluded to it in
Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost."

and I know He said it in

John 10:24-26
"The Jews therefore surrounded Him and said to Him, how long will You hold our soul in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works which I do in My Father's name, these testify concerning Me; but you do not believe because you are not of My sheep."

and He could not have said it more plainly than He did in Matthew 15:24

"But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The modern day nation of Israel was brought back through the working of God Himself. Of this I have no doubt. However, while she has taken Israel's name, she is in fact Judah - and the rest of the lost sheep of the House of Israel, where are they?

Matthew 10:5-6

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, charging them, saying 'Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter into any city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Christ went to gain sheep who were 'not of this fold' - to gather them and preach the gospel to the ends of the Earth to obtain them.

My belief is that the children of Israel were scattered amongst the nations - sown amongst the nations - to survive the predations of Satan by hiding them - but also to gain the nations; people of every tribe and every tongue, for the Kingdom: to bless the nations through Abraham.

James wrote his epistle to the "The twelve tribes in dispersion" (James 1:1) - 800 years after the twelve tribes had been dispersed.

Peter likewise wrote to "the sojourners of the dispersion" (1 Peter 1:1).

I believe that the blood of the children of Israel runs in the veins of MANY of the saints - not all maybe, but very very many. I believe that the Lord blinded the eyes of the Jews so that salvation could be brought to the nations through Israel - and that Israel and Judah will be rejoined at the time of His coming, when the flesh is restored to the dried bones and life is breathed into the Jews as their eyes are opened and their spirits enlivened and they finally come to see Jesus as Lord.

Could I be wrong? Absolutely! In all honesty, I really DON'T believe we can know it all. The prophecies are not given to us in a time line and with clear definitions - and He intended it that way.

We are not called to look for the antichrist, but to look to Him. Not to watch the wind and the waves roaring, but to keep our eyes on Jesus Christ our Lord, so we don't sink beneath them...

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by NeitherFirstnorLast

Brother Ohio,

I see that there appears to be agreement amongst those posting here that the third Temple must be rebuilt for this prophecy to be fulfilled... I too once held this view; but I am not sure of it anymore.

There are a number of reasons for this - The first reason being spiritual: I cannot believe that any sacrifice offered up in any third Temple would itself not be an abomination in the eyes of God - for it would represent a rejection of His all-atoning sacrifice for His people everywhere.

Brother NFNL,

I agree with this point. Spiritually speaking, the temple is a vanity. God used the Romans to tear the last one down, He refused even to do that Himself.

The temple sacrifices will be useless for their atonement without belief in the real Lamb of God. Nevertheless, the prophecy indicates a third temple will exist. It also seems like the support for building the temple may come from an agreement with the Beast himself. How ironic is that? The Beast will protect them from all the Moslem haters. How incredible that will be! It's no wonder they will be fooled by him. What a short-lived and false sense of security that will be! Who needs Messiah when they got such a lovely Beast on their side?

Israel dwells in total blindness concerning the Messiah, and it will take the threat of total destruction, the temple abomination, the collapse of their military, and the sight of the pierced Lamb of God, Jesus Himself, saving them, that will finally turn some to believe.

Through the hardness of the people of Israel, borne out for thousands of years, in the end we will all say that God was still faithful to His promises.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

....But Brothers and Sisters, do you believe that modern Israel is the Israel of the Bible? Do you believe that the real Israel is ALL of Israels (Jacobs') sons? Do you know that the religious Jews of today understand that they are NOT Israel, and that they are actively seeking the Lost Tribes themselves (this story is covered quite regularly in their own news - through the matrilineal RNA of Rachel (found in the mitochondrial RNA)- they are seeking to identify descendents of Jacob - all in order that THEY might fulfill the prophecies spoken of.

When understanding end times prophecies, Christians are quick to run headlong into the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ: But there are three problems with this:

1) This is a book of the revelation of Jesus Christ as given to Him by God, "made known by signs" Revelation 1:1. In other words, we know when we read of the great Dragon or the harlot in Revelation, that God is showing us a picture of a thing, but not the thing itself. We do not expect a literal dragon to rise up against us or to attempt to devour the woman. How is it then that we can so certainly proclaim that the Temple which is only eluded to is a real Temple made of stone, and not the Temple of which Christ Himself spoke? If it is, how do we explain God changing His mind on the matter, when He is unchanging?

2) The mystery of these signs, we are told elsewhere in Scripture, will not be completely understood by men until the times of the end. The understanding put forth here has been expounded for generations... does this not disqualify it, since the end has not yet come?

3) In a rush to get to Revelation, going through the Bible the prophecies in the Old Testament (apart from Daniel) are typically left out in the cold. They are viewed as perhaps supplemental to our understanding of the prophecies in Revelation, but not as the key.

I contest that the prophecies of the Old Testament are where we ought to begin in understanding the mind of God (so much as we are able to, in any case); and that Revelation - being the final book on the matter - ought to be the final book we consider.

Discussing these topics is only truly edifying if it gives Glory to God. I want to Honor Him in such a way. Can we read the book of Hosea together? This is a book that speaks volumes about this subject. I would suggest that to do so, we start another thread....

....I have to get back to work! Lord, if only I had more time to spend in Your Word!

In Christ, your friend -

Ray