Testimony

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Abounding

I am curious about other peoples ideas, however, especially regarding the trinity and the end times.

I know there are some that disagree with me. But in terms of carrying out our mission in this life on this earth, a detailed understanding of both the trinity and the end times is not particularly helpful. In fact, I generally pose the notion that the end times will be what they will be and if we are ready, it won't matter whether we did or did not have it figured out. The same can be said of the trinity. In fact, anywhere that there is a command with a promise, it has nothing to do with our understanding of anything, but in our obedience in action. And even if study is required to figure out what it is we are to do, you don't "do" the trinity or the end times, so not as important a study as some think it should be.

That being said, I have engaged in discussions relating to the trinity, although it has mostly been with the view to moderating the kind of "I've got it now" attitudes that some have. I believe strongly in the trinity. But its importance as a doctrine is not that great to me. It is the actual God, referred to as One, and as Three, that is important. And it is not so important to get it straight. It is important to believe in that God.

And I am not trying to just hedge my bets about what is the right answer. Or hide a differing opinion on what is correct. Instead, I'm willing to believe quite strongly what I believe, but be willing to accept variations in that belief without judgment. Same with pre-trib, post-trib, mid-trib, and pan-trib beliefs.

And don't get me started on the hypothetical "will we be able to fly around" questions that people so excessively focused on the next life seem to start in on. Or Lee's "it's all about constantly falling prostrate." I don't dismiss them. I try to avoid the subject so that it isn't some kind of elephant in the room. It isn't one for me. But too often is for those who really get into that stuff.

[NeitherFirstnorLast]

Originally Posted by OBW

I know there are some that disagree with me. But in terms of carrying out our mission in this life on this earth, a detailed understanding of both the trinity and the end times is not particularly helpful.

I agree with you there, Brother. Daniel was very troubled by what he saw regarding the times of the end... but the Lord said to him:

Daniel 12:4a "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time...."

John likewise, in His vision of the Lord on Patmos was told:

Revelation 10:4 "When the seven peals of thunder had spoken, I was about to write; and I heard a voice from heaven saying, "Seal up the things which the seven peals of thunder have spoken and do not write them."

His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. Some things are meant to be a mystery...

1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known."

...Only the "Great Gurus" claim to have it all figured out. That is a tremendous claim for any human being on Earth to make, and a sure indication that they're either deluded or they're lying...

...As I've said before, we are Saved by Grace through Faith, and not by intelligence through understanding. If we demand understanding, then we are not living by Faith at all, are we?

All that said, there is nothing wrong with discussing what we believe, what we have seen in Scripture, and what is our Great Hope... But, as Mike has pointed out, we ought be careful not to let disagreement over matters which surely have been given multiple plausible interpretations, a reason for strife and division.

In Christ,

NeitherFirstnorLast

[countmeworthy]

AMEN NeitherFirstnorLast !
EXCELLENT response !

I agree with you there, Brother. Daniel was very troubled by what he saw regarding the times of the end... but the Lord said to him:
Daniel 12:4a "But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time...."

And the time of the end has arrived ! GOD the Father is opening the eyes of our understanding through His WORD, His Son and His HOLY SPIRIT

John likewise, in His vision of the Lord on Patmos was told:

As I've said before, we are Saved by Grace through Faith, and not by intelligence through understanding. If we demand understanding, then we are not living by Faith at all, are we?

While I don't think we are to "Demand" understanding, surely we can ask and it will be given to us. Daniel prayed and asked the Lord to give him understanding and interpretration of Nebu's dreams. The Lord granted his request ! That said, you are absolutely correct we are saved by Faith through His Grace and NOT by human intellect of understanding the Word of God. But GOD does give us Revelation and Understanding of the scriptures as we study the Word prayerfully.

Again GREAT POST ! I haven't been here in a while. I believe the Spirit led me here today. To God be all the Glory and Praise with Thanksgiving.

Carol

[OBW]

I have this sense that my position relating to the trinity and the end times is not truly understood.

God. I believe that God is One and God is Three in a manner that can only be described as mysterious. I believe that God is One. This means that everything about God is from a single unity. There is no possibility of conflict as in some kind of committee. But at the same time, there is something about God that is revealed as Three — not just different aspects at different times, but at the same time. And seen/heard simultaneously. And yet the reality of the Three to us is that certain aspects of what He is to us are wrapped up in the Father, other aspects in the Son, and yet other aspects in the Spirit. And while we like the term "person" to talk about each of these three because it describes our relationship with Him/Them, it also places, in our minds, a limit on who and what God really is. The One God (or is it merely the Father, or as is indicated elsewhere, the Son) hears our prayers. All our prayers. At the same time. Whether it is the One God or the Father or the Son, the "multitasking" on just this one activity is mind-boggling. If the One, or one of the Three can do this, it pretty much evidences that One without the aspects of being Three could do everything that is described throughout scripture as our God. And do it all at once, including walk, speak form heaven, and swoop down as a dove. I see no need for Three. And yet that is how God is described, or more correctly how he describes himself. Because of that one fact, I accept that the trinity, no matter how poorly we truly understand it, puts most of what we can discern concerning God into a single, albeit complicated doctrine.

And yet not understanding the trinity does not change God or me. And for that reason, I think that getting too argumentative about exactly what it is distracts us from our true purpose and calling.

End Times. I believe that Christ is returning. I believe that the book of Revelation shows, in a combination of types, metaphors, pictures, allegories, etc., something of how it progresses until everything is accomplished. Where and how it all happens, though, is not clearly laid out. Some argue over what is the true meaning of a certain horse, or a certain seal. Some think that the book runs from start to finish. Others that it gives a chronology then goes back to fill in somewhat random details. I accept most of it in keeping with some of the best minds on the subject. And at the same time I am comfortable that I, and they, do not have it all figured out. The most important thing about the revelation in Revelation, is to make it clear that it is not just about this life and it is over. It gives some legs to justice and righteousness. And at the same time, it doesn't really tell us much for all the words written. Except to be graphic in telling us that it is coming.

But whether it will play out as one camp thinks, or as another thinks, or some combination, there will be an end. Some of it is clearly earthly. Some of it seems heavenly. And some of it is not clear either way. But when I read the verses mentioned throughout the OT and NT (excluding Revelation) I do not find a need to understand the end times, but a need to know that there is an end times. There is a culmination of this age. It is more than the burn-out of our sun. It does provide a push toward righteousness and obedience, which is the evidence of watchfulness.

And this will seem a little odd to be coming from one who is as mental as me, but a lot of what we think about God, or the end times, that gives us those senses of joy is in having mental knowledge about something more clearly than before. I'm not saying that is bad. But is knowing in the sense of a mental realization as important as putting legs to the knowledge? Sometimes the knowing will put legs to it because it will lead us to freedom in some area in which we found ourselves at least partly bound. But if all we can point to is a better vocabulary, or a better road map of a future that we will get through according to its reality whether we understand it now or not, then our reading, studying, and ultimately knowledge are not really very important.

Jesus did not tell anyone to know the details of the end times. But he made it clear that there will be, for each of us, an end that comes at an uncertain time. He said to be watching. That did not mean to constantly be saying " is it now? Is it now? . . ." It meant to be in a condition that is ready to face it. When one is taken and the other left behind, it is not because one is looking for it, but because one is living right and is therefore ready and in the proper condition. If a scoffer realizes that Christ is returning and is looking for it, what is that? Satan is looking for it. It will do him no good. Looking for it — watching — is not about trying to figure out signs. It is more importantly about being prepared for it at all times. This is the important thing. If I am prepared, I do not need to understand the details of what is to come. I just need to remain prepared.

So I am not saying "Don't think about the trinity or the end times." I'm saying to be aware of what is important in them and be prepared. To take in the grace, mercy, and love of God, and as a result obey. To know that there is more than this life, so be ready. And to know that we are not guaranteed 70 or more years in which to get ready. That is much more important than understanding what is the gathering of the wheat and the grapes. Or the four horsemen. Or the seals. Or the precise relationship of the Three and the One.