Titus Chu spin off-help?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sunrise

I came from the Ohio Titus Chu spin-off. Was there for a few years as a young person. I was looking for help because there are many testimonies on the main branch of LSM, but I know to some extent our group branched off

Welcome Sunrise, I hope that you're doing alright. These groups can really affect one's thinking. I've slowly been unraveling things to my satisfaction, learning a bit here and there, along the way.

Of course there is a lot of information on the internet, if you have time and patience to sift through this forum you'll learn a lot about Titus Chu and his group, probably more than you want to know! (But I believe that with understanding comes freedom).

Titus Chu was recruited by Witness Lee in the 1950s while in High School in Taiwan. He had a forceful personality and quickly distinguished himself among his peer group, and upon emigrating to the U. S., he became a 'regional leader' in the Great Lakes area, centering in Cleveland, Ohio. (you probably know some of this). I was in a small group nearby, and when Titus came through it was like he was a big shining star. Everyone filled the small room, hung on his every word, laughed at his anecdotes, were impressed with his insights. The most striking thing about him was his strong personality. Very demonstrative, very assertive.

Then I left the Local Church group, and years later heard that he "rebelled" against the other followers of Witness Lee. Basically it comes down to this: he was willing to lose face to Witness Lee, but when WL died, TC didn't want to lose face to any others, and they kicked him and all his affiliated churches out of the Local Church aka Lord's Recovery.

Meanwhile, they did the same thing to another regional leader, Dong Yu Lan in Brasil. I'm not sure how those 2 deal with each other, if they have to kowtow to one another or not. All I know is there are Titus Chu spinoff churches in spread globally (Africa, Asia) in geographical areas where Living Stream Ministry churches also are, and both are supposedly "local" churches, but really they're full of Chinese expatriates who can't talk to one another. They're about as local as a McDonald's franchise in Paris.

They're high control groups, paranoid, fearful, with a strong persecution complex: if you disagree, you're seen as "attacking" them...they're also focused on themselves and not really into helping others, insular, introspective, judgmental, high demand, regimented, rigid and inflexible. If you want to be told what to do, it's a great place. Just don't plan on thinking too much, or if you do, keep your thoughts to yourself!

Originally Posted by aron

They're high control groups, paranoid, fearful, with a strong persecution complex: if you disagree, you're seen as "attacking" them...they're also focused on themselves and not really into helping others, insular, introspective, judgmental, high demand, regimented, rigid and inflexible. If you want to be told what to do, it's a great place. Just don't plan on thinking too much, or if you do, keep your thoughts to yourself!

Hi thank you for replying to my post

I just took some time to go through the website for references of Titus and Cleveland. This is so disappointing seeing everyone have similar stories to mine. I feel this group hid their true identity from me and others.

Why couldn't I see it before? I really thought I was following Jesus and had internal, subjective experiences or something... Now I am reading the Bible and its like a whole different book since being away.

Thanks

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sunrise

Hi thank you for replying to my post

I just took some time to go through the website for references of Titus and Cleveland. This is so disappointing seeing everyone have similar stories to mine. I feel this group hid their true identity from me and others.

Why couldn't I see it before? I really thought I was following Jesus and had internal, subjective experiences or something... Now I am reading the Bible and its like a whole different book since being away.

Thanks

Sunrise,

I can't fully answer your "Why?" questions, but we did have similar experiences...especially when you say "Now I am reading the Bible and its like a whole different book since being away."

This is what I think:

This is the best thing that could have happened to me (and you). It served as a period of "detox". After years of detox, the Bible became a new book...just like you described.

As to why we all went through that in the first place, it could be an indication that rather than knowing the Lord, we were seduced from knowing him and following him, to following someone who replaced him. We did have a "good time" in the LC (from time to time) and mistook this for a walk with the Lord.

One important matter in our walk with Him, he will never violate our free will...ever. We chose the path of the LC and he didn't overrule us. We had no idea what we were doing...yet we were "off". He gave us freedom to choose. We still have that freedom to follow him, we are free to make another choice. To choose him, we need to know him and his ways. Like Paul said "That I may know him..."

In other words, if we knew what we were doing...if we knew him...we would have hopefully chosen differently.

We were so indoctrinated with the "church" teaching/s that even today when leaving that place, we first start looking for another "church" rather than looking to know him. If we know him, he will take care of our fellowship with other believers.

So here's my advice: forget "church". Follow him, seek him in all things and he will guide your path. He will direct you to fellowship with others.

Just my opinion, hope it helps!
Nell

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by Nell

We were so indoctrinated with the "church" teaching/s that even today when leaving that place, we first start looking for another "church" rather than looking to know him. If we know him, he will take care of our fellowship with other believers.

So here's my advice: forget "church". Follow him, seek him in all things and he will guide your path. He will direct you to fellowship with others.

Just my opinion, hope it helps!
Nell

I concur with Nell on the importance of prioritizing a personal relationship with God. However, I believe seeking a new church is not inherently wrong, nor would I suggest neglecting church altogether. It's important to acknowledge that the Lord might guide someone through various paths to detoxify spiritually and embark on a healthy spiritual journey.

In my own experience, leaving the cult of Witness Lee would have been impossible without first connecting with a genuine Christian church. The fellowship within a church and forming friendships with more mature believers played a crucial role for both my family and me. Leaving a controlling group comes with its challenges, such as dealing with an inflated or deflated sense of self, the risk of falling into other heretical teachings, or the trap of joining another cult online. Therefore, emotional and spiritual support is absolutely vital.

I want to emphasize that lacking a church community or close relationships with more mature believers can significantly slow down or even jeopardize the process of spiritual healing and recovery.

[Ohio]

I can honestly say that connecting with the Church in Cleveland was one of the greatest life events for me personally. So much changed in me, my thinking, my outlook on life, liberation from drugs and cigarettes, knowing the Lord, etc. etc.

But that doesn’t mean everything was perfect. Nothing is perfect here on earth. And I should add that churches change over time. A healthy church life for me back in the 70’s doesn’t mean all was good then or now. Unfortunately the LC system developed leaders over time that played God, they lorded it over others, they hurt others, not all were that way, but far too many.

One of my biggest failures there was trusting the brothers beyond what was healthy. I own that. Coupled with certain ones over me who were by nature controlling and manipulative was a recipe for failure. Some of those failures have enabled me to experience the love and grace of the Lord beyond what a smooth life would have afforded. As a general rule, we should all accept that behind the scenes it is God who works out all things for good. Bad things can sometimes help us more than the good. We are not alone here, the Lord has promised to always be with us.

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by Nell

Sunrise, so here's my advice: forget "church".

Seriously? So Jesus’ words to Peter following his revelation — “Build my church” — we should just forget? And basically all of Paul’s epistles?

I disagree. The assembly, to use a different word, is God’s earthly dwelling, His bride-to-be, and body. Mysterious, yes. Difficult in many ways, yes. But forgetting the church is like amputating 90% of the New Testament.

[Sunshine]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Seriously? So Jesus’ words to Peter following his revelation — “Build my church” — we should just forget? And basically all of Paul’s epistles?

I disagree. The assembly, to use a different word, is God’s earthly dwelling, His bride-to-be, and body. Mysterious, yes. Difficult in many ways, yes. But forgetting the church is like amputating 90% of the New Testament.

Witness Lee had corrupted the definition of word church. He changed the definition base on his own business enterprise. He defines the genuine church base on oneness under his eldership. At first it was based on locality defined by city boundary, then it developed further to be based on one eldership under him and only using his brand of ministry.

All other worship centers or churches, Witness Lee labelled as Jeroboam church, illegal ground, not God's choice, etc.

To heal from the corrupted indoctrination of Witness Lee regarding church, body, etc. I find it very helpful to mentally acknowledge that he and his followers are referring to the genuine church of Witness Lee's (like a business franchise brand).

[SpeakersCorner]

Sunshine, I understand the point you’re making and I was aware that Nell placed the word “church” in quotes. My reaction comes from the fact that, whether or not you agree with Lee’s teaching on the church, you cannot run from the fact that the church is the final revelation in the Bible, the bride coming down from heaven.

I came to this thread because someone alerted me that it was here discussing Titus Chu. I have a personal story about Titus Chu. He came to my home in 1982 when I was living a “back to the land” existence on 15 acres on a gravel road in a house I cobbled together with duct tape and binder twine (well, in a manner of speaking. I did write some articles for Mother Earth News back then). He stayed overnight with us, held my then five-week-old baby girl in his arms, and walked with me on my country property. He came because he had heard we had a gathering of six people in our home. We invited some likeminded saints from as far as three hours away and had a conference around my dining room table, a table I had built out of salvaged yellow poplar flooring with original nails holes intact. (I mention these boards because they symbolized our little flock in many ways: salvaged, flawed, repurposed as a platform for serving and enjoying food.) And our little gathering became something bigger than a Bible study.

Through the years I’ve paid many a price to uphold whatever testimony we had. Defining “the church” has been an ongoing process in my life. Even today, now at age 70 meeting with 35 saints in a building we did much of the finish work on, I am trying to see what the church really is. It’s very mysterious to me but also very precious.

So I posted here to defend Titus Chu. He has been pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered but that man, now in his upper 80s, continues to labor to “build the church.” In many ways he has been a model to me in trying to do the same.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

So I posted here to defend Titus Chu. He has been pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered but that man, now in his upper 80s, continues to labor to “build the church.” In many ways he has been a model to me in trying to do the same.

Hey SC, nice to see an old friend stop by!

I agree that TC has been “pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered” and more by small-minded man-pleasers who preach Christ out of pretense. (Phil 1.18) We both were part of a system that was turning rotten. But I also wonder how much of this mistreatment was discipline for how TC treated other brothers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

I posted here to defend Titus Chu. He has been pilloried, excommunicated, reviled, slandered but that man, now in his upper 80s, continues to labor to “build the church.” In many ways he has been a model to me in trying to do the same.

SpeakersCorner,

I appreciate you coming on this discussion forum to defend Titus Chu, and write of your perspective. And I don't doubt your sincerity. But I must also write of what I have seen and heard, as well. I will make 3 comments and then discuss.

The first is that Jesus taught the great commandment was in two parts, to love God and to love one another. The two are deliberately paired, and can't be separated any more than two sides of a coin. Yet in the Local Church we got "build the church" and we lost our love, and the great high peak vision was really nothing but a cover. How people treated each other was not building the church.

The second is, to interpret the Bible, avoid egregious errors. Don't interpret a verse in such a way that it voids another verse. Each verse fits with the rest holistically. Don't be unbalanced, having supposedly crucial verses and ignoring so-called natural verses. Don't interpret a verse using one rule, and then interpret another verse differently. Be consistent in hermeneutics. Any first-year seminary student would get this drilled, yet these men never went to seminary. Some verses they'd hold as if it were the key to heaven, other verses they fled from like Dracula from the dawn.

The third point is on what I used to call Culture, but it's more accurate scripturally to call it Tradition. This is to do something reflexively, habitually, repeatedly, automatically, because that's what's always been done. The Local Church would take great pains to make a big deal of being biblical, but when "wrong" scripture verses hit their ingrained tradition, they dropped scripture like a hot poker. They'd freeze in meetings if someone quoted the "wrong verses".

It starts with Watchman Nee, who set the table for the rolling fiasco that followed. He was held to be the Spiritual Human, who was discerned by no one.*So, he'd do things that made no sense, that violated Biblical principles, that reversed earlier positions, but he was the inscrutable Spiritual Human. He could stay with a woman not his wife, and the poor sap Elders of Shanghai couldn't see that he was with his mother! Such unspiritual men! Such a natural view!

And how was Watchman Nee taken down by Ruth Lee for managing for-profit business with his unspiritual family members, supposedly to fund the gospel? Then restored by Witness Lee and Ruth Lee, according to WL's biography? Why was a female the kingmaker of the Little Flock and then 70 years later, females were unable to speak in the Local Church, because "women should be silent, and learn at home"? Not to mention Dora Yu, Peace Wang? How can an interpretive line be so mangled and self-contradictory and nobody noticed? Because the leaders were Spiritual Men, discerned by none, that's how. It was a sham.

And Witness Lee taking church members money to run a for-profit motor home business run by his own unspiritual family members, again supposedly for the gospel. "Even when he's wrong, he's right" was the refrain. Trust Witness Lee, he's got the inside track to God, and even though it looks wrong, it has to be right. He's the Spiritual Man.

And yet, Paul had written, when you prophesy, some others can discern. Yet that was one of the "forgotten" verses in the Lord's recovery. "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said." 1 Cor 14:29 NIV Paul could discern Peter and James, and vice versa. Read Galatians 2 for example. But when Witness Li prophesied, nobody could discern. There was no mutuality in the Local Church. Tradition would not allow.

And I daresay it was exactly the same with Titus Chu. Nobody could call him out, but WL. I saw WL dress down TC in public, where TC had to admit, "I am ashamed" for not being strident in the New Way. It was a kow-tow session, in a Chinese Guanxi Network. Everyone in the room had to see who's the Boss. Then I heard that TC would do the same with underlings, who went back to their home groups and did the same.

Yes, TC (and WL and WN) could be "tender, nursing mothers" and you saw that. But that was to get you in the Network. Once you were in the inner ring, you got "perfected". From MEB to WN to WL to TC to the poor sap who wasn't Spiritual Man. I don't doubt that TC saw WL do this unto Jane and Sandee, unto John Ingalls and many others. He was not unawares. Many of us witnessed this pattern. Too bad for them. Duck your head and hope nobody calls you out. That's a guanxi network disguised as a church. No love. Without natural affection. The "church" part if for recruiting. If they said, "This is a Tong run by a Chinese warlord" the recruiting would suffer. So they faked like it was a church. They did a good job, some still believe it years after watching the brutalization, hypocrisy.

*Chang, P. H. (2017). " The Spiritual Human is Discerned by No One": An Intellectual Biography of Watchman Nee (Doctoral dissertation, The University of Chicago).

Originally Posted by Sunshine

Witness Lee had corrupted the definition of word church. He changed the definition base on his own business enterprise. He defines the genuine church base on oneness under his eldership. At first it was based on locality defined by city boundary, then it developed further to be based on one eldership under him and only using his brand of ministry.

All other worship centers or churches, Witness Lee labelled as Jeroboam church, illegal ground, not God's choice, etc.

To heal from the corrupted indoctrination of Witness Lee regarding church, body, etc. I find it very helpful to mentally acknowledge that he and his followers are referring to the genuine church of Witness Lee's (like a business franchise brand).

hi. whoever this sunshine is is not me. I havent replied to this forum after my first 2 posts. Guess I should register in the future, please ignore

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

Sunrise,
...
We were so indoctrinated with the "church" teaching/s that even today when leaving that place, we first start looking for another "church" rather than looking to know him. If we know him, he will take care of our fellowship with other believers.

So here's my advice: forget "church". Follow him, seek him in all things and he will guide your path. He will direct you to fellowship with others.

Just my opinion, hope it helps!
Nell

Quoting myself, here's a reminder of the actual context of my phrase forget "church". My comments didn't stand alone, or end there. What follows is the point I was trying to make. I'm certainly not suggesting that biblical references, i.e. Paul's ministry, to the church be abandoned, and am a little surprised that you would go there.

There's a huge difference between organized churches in America (or the world) today, and the church for which Jesus died. An amazing comment, even by Benson Phillips in the waaayyyy-back "early days" I still remember:

"If you pursue Christ, the church will come out. If you pursue the church, nothing will come out." Of course, we know that Benson at some point abandoned his own words.

I'll say, once again, I do not go to "church" and haven't for at least 10 years or more. I have fellowship with believers on a regular basis. I talk to the Lord daily.

Nell

[SpeakersCorner]

Nell,

Sorry I didn’t fully contextualize your quote. Your comments above were interesting and helpful. I liked the Benson Phillips quote but I don’t think he was right. I need to muse on it.

SC

** so sorry, i saw that i had mine under sunrise, and they were sunshine. I got it mixed sorry

[Ohio]

Currently I am reading a book on Revelation prophecy by Dr Rex Beck, who is related to Titus Chu by marriage. I suppose it could be considered “spin off help” according to the thread title.

This book is definitely not in the “LC-mold” of books I had read for years. Beck references different scholars, and takes a more “scientific” approach to some difficult topics. He definitely sources Robert Govett, whom I consider the greatest Apocalyptic scholar in church history.

I like Beck’s unique approach, identifying a few diverse interpretations, gathering all the facts from Scripture, discussing caveats of each which he calls “poison pills,” laying out their ramifications, and then letting the reader decide. I find his approach both refreshing and informative, in contrast with many LC doctrinal books.

Looking back at so many pet doctrines promoted by typical LC ministers, I am reminded of the old saying, “Text without context is pretext for proof text.” And that’s one of my chief complaints about the old LC system - developing doctrines around phrases yanked out of scripture.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Sunrise

I feel this group hid their true identity from me and others. Why couldn't I see it before? I really thought I was following Jesus...

I have been thinking of the story that SpeakersCorner wrote, about being visited personally by Titus Chu in 1982. My question is, what if a team of Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses or Branch Davidians or Jesus Family had come down that dusty gravel road? Just because you get outreach doesn't mean anything of itself.

The purpose of the visit by an LSM proxy, in this case Titus Chu, was to convince others that they are legitimate ministers of Christ Jesus. Ambassadors of Christ, Paul would call them. But I'm convinced that even though Nee & Chu & Lee claim to represent Christ, they do not. Their fruit is evident.

In the case of Chu, in particular, John Ingalls wrote that TC told him to shut up & fall in line when Witness Lee's son was caught repeatedly abusing LSM staff. That visit was to sell the notion, "We the are the church", later amended to, "Only we are the church", later amended to, "Shut up and get in line".

To go back to the analogy of the flawed man who is still a man after God's heart, that type does relate to the NT believer. However, the basis of the NT believer is repentance. Suppose David had Nathan killed after being confronted with his crimes against Uriah? Would he still be after God's heart?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I have been thinking of the story that SpeakersCorner wrote, about being visited personally by Titus Chu in 1982. My question is, what if a team of Mormons or Jehovah's witnesses or Branch Davidians or Jesus Family had come down that dusty gravel road? Just because you get outreach doesn't mean anything of itself.

The purpose of the visit by an LSM proxy, in this case Titus Chu, was to convince others that they are legitimate ministers of Christ Jesus. Ambassadors of Christ, Paul would call them. But I'm convinced that even though Nee & Chu & Lee claim to represent Christ, they do not. Their fruit is evident.

In the case of Chu, in particular, John Ingalls wrote that TC told him to shut up & fall in line when Witness Lee's son was caught repeatedly abusing LSM staff. That visit was to sell the notion, "We the are the church", later amended to, "Only we are the church", later amended to, "Shut up and get in line".

To go back to the analogy of the flawed man who is still a man after God's heart, that type does relate to the NT believer. However, the basis of the NT believer is repentance. Suppose David had Nathan killed after being confronted with his crimes against Uriah? Would he still be after God's heart?

The history of the Plymouth Brethren teaches us that the EARLIER one got expelled from the program, the healthier, freer, and more blessed these ones became in the long term. Think George Muller. We should not forget that TC DID get expelled from the program, albeit too late.

But the comparisons between TC and David Koresh or the JW’s really have crossed the line. Shameful in fact. Yes, TC could fairly be compared to a tough old army general, but never was there ever a taint of personal moral failure.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The history of the Plymouth Brethren teaches us that the EARLIER one got expelled from the program, the healthier, freer, and more blessed these ones became in the long term. Think George Muller. We should not forget that TC DID get expelled from the program, albeit too late.

If a bank robber gets expelled from a criminal gang, he's still a bank robber. They just didn't want to share the loot is all.

Originally Posted by Ohio

the comparisons between TC and David Koresh or the JW’s really have crossed the line. Shameful in fact. Yes, TC could fairly be compared to a tough old army general, but never was there ever a taint of personal moral failure.

Interesting perspective. I didn't see myself crossing a line, but then if someone knew, they wouldn't cross it, would they? And that is my point - that TC crossed the line, and further, that he wouldn't have crossed it, had he known, but that's what blindness does to you. "For if they had known it, they wouldn't have crucified the Lord of glory" 1 Cor 2.8

I was deliberately and consciously being categorical: Jehovah Witness, Church of Jesus Christ (Mormon), Rastafarian, Unification Church, Jesus Family, Branch Davidian, Living Stream Ministry & its captive Local Churches are all counterfeits. They present themselves as "the Christian church", as collectively representing the furtherance of the resurrected Lord of glory, but actually they represent something else entirely. Not partly but entirely. A counterfeit bill is not partly real, but fully counterfeit.

I don't judge Titus Chu's private relationship and personal walk with God, nor for that matter of Witness Lee, nor Watchman Nee, but as public figures in the church, they refused to repent for repeated acts of evil behaviour, and then even abetted its continuation, and to some degree they share in its outcome.

What Witness Lee's son did to the women serving in LSM offices was evil. It was assault, not consensual, because of the power imbalance. And WL set it all up, and sent the victims out of town, and covered up the evil act. And then TC covered WL. None of them repented publicly that I have ever seen. What do you think it was like for that poor family? They didn't just assault a woman, but a whole family. And it happened repeatedly to multiple families.

I am not going to characterize any individual follower of these men, either, any more than to an individual Mormon or Jehovah's Witness or Rasta. I'm sure there are 'good' i. e., active and devout and well-meaning Christian persons there. But the collective groups are not Christian, but rather counterfeits. They work hard to appear Christian because that helps recruiting, and retention. But if you look at the clear and repeated patterns emerging from within, there is fruit that categorically defines of what sort it all is, and it's decidedly not Christian.

Originally Posted by CT

Many who looked up to Zacharias as a mentor, model, and spiritual father have been trying to grapple with the new information, their feelings of betrayal, and questions about their own responsibility.

“I feel disappointed in myself and others who could have pushed harder against the tides of submissive loyalty to demand better answers earlier, as there is no part of the evangelical creed that honours cowardice or sacrifices conscience,” Dan Paterson, the former head of RZIM in Australia, wrote on Facebook Wednesday night.

“I feel a profound sense of the fear of the Lord, knowing that one day I too will give an account, where like the RZ report, everything done under the shroud of darkness will be made known. Jesus comes to restore justice through judgment. Oh, how I wish Ravi repented here!”

The Living Stream Ministry hasn't been alone in manipulative and abusive behaviour, under a cloak of facile and too-convenient spirituality. But others who abetted this pattern of abuse, when confronted with it (like King David) repented. There's a fundamental difference between what happened at RZIM and LSM. In spite of failure, widespread and long-standing, the RZIM leadership repented. But instead of repenting, the Local Church leaders piled on more and more victims - the Andersons, the Rappoports, the Mallons, the Ingalls, etc etc

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...ting-rape.html

[aron]

I'd like to revisit the theme of the flawed church leader who like the adulterer David, was still a man after God's heart. My counter is that David repented. And I then asked, What if David, when confronted, instead had Nathan killed, and when shipped all the witnesses and their families out of town?

Look what WL did, when he found out about his Office Manager at LSM, who happened to be his son. Then look at what MR did, and TC, and JI. It looks as though JI was the flawed man after God's heart, who was willing to repent. He'd invested his life in this. His name was on the published books, next to WL. And yet he was willing to repent and let it go.

And Godfred Otuye, another Anaheim elder. Same thing - GO was willing to repent of his promotion of something not after God's heart, and to accept responsibility. Again, a human life's course altered, with all the effects on his family, who either has to denounce GO as a rebel against God's throne, or be expelled. I don't doubt the human cost was high.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by aron

The Living Stream Ministry hasn't been alone in manipulative and abusive behaviour, under a cloak of facile and too-convenient spirituality. But others who abetted this pattern of abuse, when confronted with it (like King David) repented. There's a fundamental difference between what happened at RZIM and LSM. In spite of failure, widespread and long-standing, the RZIM leadership repented. But instead of repenting, the Local Church leaders piled on more and more victims - the Andersons, the Rappoports, the Mallons, the Ingalls, etc etc
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...ting-rape.html

Another way to look at the fall of many modern church leaders and even para-church organizations like RZIM, Bill Gothard's IBLP or The Shepherding Movement is that Witness Lee may actually share some amount of direct responsibility for their failures. Let's imagine for just a moment that the horrible book Authority And Submission never actually came into existence. If Witness Lee had failed in his mission to hide Watchman Nee's sins from the rest of the world then leaders like Ravi Z. & Bill G. might never have gotten away with harming as many innocent people. Or let's go one step further. What if WL had died while in custody of the Japanese? Where would we all be right now? Sorry, but sometimes I have these what-if thinking spells.

P.S.

[aron]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Another way to look at the fall of many modern church leaders and even para-church organizations like RZIM, Bill Gothard's IBLP or The Shepherding Movement is that Witness Lee may actually share some amount of direct responsibility for their failures. Let's imagine for just a moment that the horrible book Authority And Submission never actually came into existence. If Witness Lee had failed in his mission to hide Watchman Nee's sins from the rest of the world then leaders like Ravi Z. & Bill G. might never have gotten away with harming as many innocent people.

Another question: What if ME Barber had succeeded at warning people away from her now apparently rogue protégé Watchman Nee? She wrote DM Panton in London, asking him not to receive nor encourage the young man, who was bright, relentlessly ambitious and headed for much trouble, because of his enthusiasm and inexperience. Those were perhaps some of the most prophetic words penned in 20th century Christendom.

She'd told "Henry" to stay away from Jessie Penn-Lewis, perhaps knowing of the influence of Freemasonry (J P-L had been a youth leader in the group*), but WN not only got into it but republished much of it verbatim under his own name. The publisher acknowledged this outsized debt, in the preface to the 2nd edition of Spiritual Man, but by then the die was cast and the putative ministry of WN was well underway.

*Mary N. Garrard and Jessie Penn-Lewis, Mrs. Penn-Lewis: A Memoir (London: The Overcomer Book Room, 1931), 1–4.

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by aron

he became a 'regional leader' in the Great Lakes area, centering in Cleveland, Ohio.

Just curious how large was this breakup in North America, proportionally speaking? Would you estimate it affected 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, or even more of the population/ churches of Witness Lee's followers?

[aron]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

Just curious how large was this breakup in North America, proportionally speaking? Would you estimate it affected 5%, 10%, 20%, 30%, or even more of the population/ churches of Witness Lee's followers?

It impacted the Eastern USA followers. The Brasilians had infiltrated many Eastern Seaboard churches, and when Titus Chu and Dong Yu Lan pulled out of the Recovery it significantly affected operations.

Originally Posted by Ohio

That’s what I’m talking about. TC always gave us the impression that WL’s ministry burden was “undone by subordinates.” He held WL in the highest reverence, yet nearly despised all the Blendeds, eg “those 5 little boys.”

When WL passed, one of the current Blendeds passed through, making rounds. He told us, "The age of Spiritual giants is over, it is the age of small potatoes." TC was willing to be a small potato to WL, but not to BP & EM & RK. That's it in a nutshell. Same w Dong, who would kowtow to WL but not the little boys of Anaheim.

This is why I see church as such a landmine. Very few people that I know socially are willing to believe that God raised Jesus from the dead and gave him glory. Why? Because behind that gospel, they see TC and the Blendeds playing church. Staying in the world makes a lot more sense than getting pulled into that. I saw families pulled apart: are you with Dong -- or with Anaheim?

Back to my original point - nobody can address the 300 lb gorilla in the living room. When I mention the reciprocity in 1 Corinthians 14 and Galatians 2, and its sheer and utter absence in the top rungs of the Recovered Church of Nee, Lee, Dong, Chu... silence. Their tradition renders them incapable of seeing this. To them, it does not and cannot exist. Yet they spend their days, staring at the Bible, dredging support for their traditions.

Even some traditions get no Bible support. When we were told, "The age has turned", no verse was cited. Why? Because WL was the Spiritual man and you are not. That was the basis of the whole Guanxi network. Your connection to God is through lining up with the Deputy God. Yet the NT not only doesn't support this, it condemns it. But tradition demanded it to be so.

It doesn't matter if God's economy has intensified Spirit, which Paul never referenced. "It was a revelation of the Spiritual man, God's oracle." Or, multiple conflicting centers of the universe. Or, local churches being overturned by the Jerusalem principle. Or, the reversed role of women in church. If the Guru flip-flops, and yesterdays black becomes today's white, he's right. Tradition demands it to be so.

Inherited and engrained tradition demanded that TC and DYL break off from Anaheim. They were just filling roles.