Merged Thread: Ron Kangas

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Jay

So your wife is nothing but you're something? Are you implying that you're wearing a crown here Ron? How is this not pride? I thought there were no class or distinctions in the church? If there's no class or distinctions then why are the wives of the leading brothers claiming they have a higher class than others? Why did that happen in the first place? Could it be because they saw their husbands basking in the glory of their positions and the wives wanted in on some of that power?

I've absolutely seen this in the LC. Elders walking around like celebrities and their wives thinking their husband is the big cheese and thinking they're something too. But didn't Lee say elders were slaves? Where is the humility in any of this? Where is the humanity and lowliness of Jesus? Hard to find a word for it, embarrassing, deplorable, wrong, blatant, unfair, take your pick

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

I've absolutely seen this in the LC. Elders walking around like celebrities and their wives thinking their husband is the big cheese and thinking they're something too. But didn't Lee say elders were slaves? Where is the humility in any of this? Where is the humanity and lowliness of Jesus? Hard to find a word for it, embarrassing, deplorable, wrong, blatant, unfair, take your pick

I think it all goes back to the teaching and practice of deputy authority. Brothers whether elders or deacons actually believe they are God's representatives on earth. I heard those claims. That's my explanation why brothers get filled with pride instead of humility.
Last time I was in an LC meeting, my wife and I were visiting where my mother meets. Towards the end of the meeting, a sister stood up to speak, but the lead elder cuts her off telling her to sit down.
Afterwards my wife and I were astonished that happened and how embarrassed
the sister must have felt. If there was humility, the elder would have been patient for the sister to speak before the brother gives his closing word.

[TheStarswillFall]

During message 12 of the December 23 Semi-Annual Training Ron Kangas stated:

"the enemy knows full well that in all the earth Christ can only be exhibited corporately in the recovered local churches."

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

During message 12 of the December 23 Semi-Annual Training Ron Kangas stated:

"the enemy knows full well that in all the earth Christ can only be exhibited corporately in the recovered local churches."

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

The Stars will fall.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

Do you have a link to him saying this?

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

During message 12 of the December 23 Semi-Annual Training Ron Kangas stated:

"the enemy knows full well that in all the earth Christ can only be exhibited corporately in the recovered local churches."

Ron Reality Kangas also unmistakenly identified himself as one of the seven stars (Rev 1:16) in the Lord's right hand who is able to tell the churches exactly where they are in relation to this age and the coming one. He also emphatically stated that not any believer can be a star according to Rev 1:16 .... oh no, they must be co-workers in the Lord's Recovery - only those are the genuine messengers to the churches.

oh boy.

This... is pretty damning if true. Based on the kind of statements I've seen from Kangas and the other leading brothers before as well as predicting the natural progression of their insanity over time, I'm fully willing to believe that Ron Kangas would say something like this.

That being said, for the sake of being thorough, I would appreciate it if anyone could at any point in time provide a link to the audio of this conference. Heck, even if I have to pay LSM to get a copy of it, I will gladly dish out whatever the conference fee was if this is the kind of nonsense being spat out by its leaders.

I understand if it is not readily available now. I know that the Local Churches are quite religious about protecting their precious copyright, especially when it contains the weirder and more radical things that they say, but I earnestly implore anyone who knows how to access these videos to share something substantial with us.

Quotes of this nature, above all others, are the kind that need to be publicized for other members in The Lord's Recovery to see as well as those outside of The Lord's Recovery, and primary sources are ideal.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

This... is pretty damning if true. Based on the kind of statements I've seen from Kangas and the other leading brothers before as well as predicting the natural progression of their insanity over time, I'm fully willing to believe that Ron Kangas would say something like this.

That being said, for the sake of being thorough, I would appreciate it if anyone could at any point in time provide a link to the audio of this conference. Heck, even if I have to pay LSM to get a copy of it, I will gladly dish out whatever the conference fee was if this is the kind of nonsense being spat out by its leaders.

I understand if it is not readily available now. I know that the Local Churches are quite religious about protecting their precious copyright, especially when it contains the weirder and more radical things that they say, but I earnestly implore anyone who knows how to access these videos to share something substantial with us.

Quotes of this nature, above all others, are the kind that need to be publicized for other members in The Lord's Recovery to see as well as those outside of The Lord's Recovery, and primary sources are ideal.

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

While not audio or video, this is the LSM defense/rebuttal of RK’s words. Link previously posted in case you missed it. They don’t don’t deny that he said it, but try to provide “context”. Does this help?

Nell

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Nell

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

While not audio or video, this is the LSM defense/rebuttal of RK’s words. Link previously posted in case you missed it. They don’t don’t deny that he said it, but try to provide “context”. Does this help?

Nell

It doesn't mention anything about him calling himself one of the seven stars. so it doesn't help in that regard

Just funny to read this again and watch them flub all over themselves with silliness.....

When it is read in context, Brother Ron’s point in mentioning his wife in his message on Miriam was not to denigrate her but to illustrate that his role in serving the Lord as a co-worker does not bestow any status in the Lord’s work upon her. In saying this, he was warning leading brothers not to assume that their wives share in their role in the church, for this will cause damage both to their wives and to the church. This is equally true of husbands whose wives serve the ministry or the church in some capacity. Suppose a married sister serves in Living Stream Ministry (LSM). Her service gives her husband no standing to touch any matter related to LSM. Were he to presume otherwise and interfere with the service of LSM, he would likewise cause damage

They're basically just admitting that there's status and rank in the recovery here. But elsewhere they'll tell you that the recovery doesn't have anything to do with the clergy-laity. Oh really? Then why is there rank and status between common believers and speakers/coworkers/elders? Just silly that they assume we're that dumb

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Nell

https://shepherdingwords.com/twistin...kangass-words/

While not audio or video, this is the LSM defense/rebuttal of RK’s words. Link previously posted in case you missed it. They don’t don’t deny that he said it, but try to provide “context”. Does this help?

Nell

I've had an interest in dissecting their conferences since that is what they most jealously guard. I understand that even with access to this most recent conference, their defense will likely still be the same.

"You took it out of context."

It's amazing how they always say this, yet they always fail to provide textual, audio, or scriptural evidence to counter with what they believe is proper context. They just say you did it wrong and kind of stop there.

"Ok, then. Show me the context."

There have been instances where someone would say something was off about a message but not even say specifically what, but others would still respond with "you took it out of context."

Took what out of context? They haven't even specified the critique yet! This is just further proof that they throw out this phrase reflexively and really have no idea how to respond properly.

Regardless, I had a lot of fun taking apart the message given at their "Special Fellowship" at the July 2019 semiannual training, so I'm sure I'd enjoy doing the same for this most recent training, especially if what has been presented recently is the kind of nonsense that Ron Kangas is peddling.

Does no one see how stupid this all is? Am I going crazy here? It's absolutely ridiculous, but it's been that pattern since before I was even born.

It's sad to think that even if we were able to get everyone in The Lord's Recovery to see clearly... well, by that time there will be ten new groups that are just as bad if not worse.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I've had an interest in dissecting their conferences since that is what they most jealously guard. I understand that even with access to this most recent conference, their defense will likely still be the same.

"You took it out of context."

It's amazing how they always say this, yet they always fail to provide textual, audio, or scriptural evidence to counter with what they believe is proper context. They just say you did it wrong and kind of stop there.

"Ok, then. Show me the context."

There have been instances where someone would say something was off about a message but not even say specifically what, but others would still respond with "you took it out of context."

Took what out of context? They haven't even specified the critique yet! This is just further proof that they throw out this phrase reflexively and really have no idea how to respond properly.

Regardless, I had a lot of fun taking apart the message given at their "Special Fellowship" at the July 2019 semiannual training, so I'm sure I'd enjoy doing the same for this most recent training, especially if what has been presented recently is the kind of nonsense that Ron Kangas is peddling.

Does no one see how stupid this all is? Am I going crazy here? It's absolutely ridiculous, but it's been that pattern since before I was even born.

It's sad to think that even if we were able to get everyone in The Lord's Recovery to see clearly... well, by that time there will be ten new groups that are just as bad if not worse.

Then there’s no way to respond. No way to discuss anything, much less discuss “context.” IMHO there is no context that can justify speaking about half of the body the way RK did.

Imagine a “Shepherding Words Forum”….

Not holding my breath.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I've had an interest in dissecting their conferences since that is what they most jealously guard. I understand that even with access to this most recent conference, their defense will likely still be the same.

"You took it out of context."

It's amazing how they always say this, yet they always fail to provide textual, audio, or scriptural evidence to counter with what they believe is proper context. They just say you did it wrong and kind of stop there.

"Ok, then. Show me the context."

There have been instances where someone would say something was off about a message but not even say specifically what, but others would still respond with "you took it out of context."

Took what out of context? They haven't even specified the critique yet! This is just further proof that they throw out this phrase reflexively and really have no idea how to respond properly.

Regardless, I had a lot of fun taking apart the message given at their "Special Fellowship" at the July 2019 semiannual training, so I'm sure I'd enjoy doing the same for this most recent training, especially if what has been presented recently is the kind of nonsense that Ron Kangas is peddling.

Does no one see how stupid this all is? Am I going crazy here? It's absolutely ridiculous, but it's been that pattern since before I was even born.

It's sad to think that even if we were able to get everyone in The Lord's Recovery to see clearly... well, by that time there will be ten new groups that are just as bad if not worse.

The same applies when you or I use early Lee to critique "The Lords' Recovery". It's either you're using the ministry to attack the ministry or you're taking out of context.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I think it all goes back to the teaching and practice of deputy authority. Brothers whether elders or deacons actually believe they are God's representatives on earth. I heard those claims. That's my explanation why brothers get filled with pride instead of humility.
Last time I was in an LC meeting, my wife and I were visiting where my mother meets. Towards the end of the meeting, a sister stood up to speak, but the lead elder cuts her off telling her to sit down.
Afterwards my wife and I were astonished that happened and how embarrassed
the sister must have felt. If there was humility, the elder would have been patient for the sister to speak before the brother gives his closing word.

I remember at a meeting in Renton around 2016 a brother stood up to speak and he was stammering and like pausing because he wasn't used to speaking and he couldn't find his thoughts on a certain subject. The leading elder at the time was sitting in the front row like a king sits on a thrown (doing his best Brother Lee impression probably) and he lifts up his arm like a king giving an edict, and goes "brother sit down." I was so pissed, my blood was boiling. That's not how you lead a church. That brother may never stand up to speak ever again as long as he lives. He may have left the church idk, I haven't seen him in years. He was just publicly embarassed, I felt so bad for him

At Bellevue a bunch of times the leading brother told people to sit down as well. He would also literally yell at the congregation in anger because there was too long of pauses between prophecies. If the pause was too long he'd stand up and chastise the congregation for taking too long and not standing up, like a father would yell at a child who broke something. Pretty reprehensible. That church was pretty dead spiritually and they were just going through the motions. You could tell there wasn't much enjoyment because of the strict atmosphere that that tyrant of an elder fostered. It was also like an abusive relationship. Like that brother had so much control over the church that everyone feared him and was trying not to get him mad or something

He was really arrogant when it came to his power over the church, but one time I called for the elders and asked them to pray over me due to an illness and all the elders were as timid as a deer in headlights when it came to actually helping me. They all three drove up to see me and kinda joked about laying hands on me and then just left without actually doing it. It was absolutely bizarre. They were really apt to exert negative control, but when it came to manifesting something positive spiritually they were basically rookies. And when it came to actually having a spirit of lowliness and loving a needy and suffering member they acted like teenagers. Just so shameful. Looking back it may have been that they didn't even believe I was sick. I remember my mom went and talked to one of the elders who came that day and he basically brushed her off and goes "all of that for just some anxiety." He thought my illness was all in my head. I can't understand how these type of brothers become elders, it just boggles my mind. It took me almost 15 years to figure out exactly what the problems were and why the churches in this region are so messed up. Which was horrible because I had a lot of personal problems and I needed shepherding and love badly. How can shepherding and love happen when a church is full of darkness from improper leadership? How can it happen when the church is basically Laodicea? It can't and it didn't and I suffered greatly for years because of it and even left that locality and never returned. I get the ick even thinking about it now and even then what I experienced from 2006-2010 probably isn't even half as bad as some other members have suffered elsewhere in different localities

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

I remember at a meeting in Renton around 2016 a brother stood up to speak and he was stammering and like pausing because he wasn't used to speaking and he couldn't find his thoughts on a certain subject. The leading elder at the time was sitting in the front row like a king sits on a thrown (doing his best Brother Lee impression probably) and he lifts up his arm like a king giving an edict, and goes "brother sit down." I was so pissed, my blood was boiling. That's not how you lead a church. That brother may never stand up to speak ever again as long as he lives. He may have left the church idk, I haven't seen him in years. He was just publicly embarassed, I felt so bad for him

At Bellevue a bunch of times the leading brother told people to sit down as well. He would also literally yell at the congregation in anger because there was too long of pauses between prophecies. If the pause was too long he'd stand up and chastise the congregation for taking too long and not standing up, like a father would yell at a child who broke something. Pretty reprehensible. That church was pretty dead spiritually and they were just going through the motions. You could tell there wasn't much enjoyment because of the strict atmosphere that that tyrant of an elder fostered. It was also like an abusive relationship. Like that brother had so much control over the church that everyone feared him and was trying not to get him mad or something

He was really arrogant when it came to his power over the church, but one time I called for the elders and asked them to pray over me due to an illness and all the elders were as timid as a deer in headlights when it came to actually helping me. They all three drove up to see me and kinda joked about laying hands on me and then just left without actually doing it. It was absolutely bizarre. They were really apt to exert negative control, but when it came to manifesting something positive spiritually they were basically rookies. And when it came to actually having a spirit of lowliness and loving a needy and suffering member they acted like teenagers. Just so shameful. Looking back it may have been that they didn't even believe I was sick. I remember my mom went and talked to one of the elders who came that day and he basically brushed her off and goes "all of that for just some anxiety." He thought my illness was all in my head. I can't understand how these type of brothers become elders, it just boggles my mind. It took me almost 15 years to figure out exactly what the problems were and why the churches in this region are so messed up. Which was horrible because I had a lot of personal problems and I needed shepherding and love badly. How can shepherding and love happen when a church is full of darkness from improper leadership? How can it happen when the church is basically Laodicea? It can't and it didn't and I suffered greatly for years because of it and even left that locality and never returned. I get the ick even thinking about it now and even then what I experienced from 2006-2010 probably isn't even half as bad as some other members have suffered elsewhere in different localities

When I was meeting with Renton, the lead elder has since passed. He was the most capable in regard to being personable. The ones as found at https://secure.dor.wa.gov/gteunauth/_/#2 struck me as being loyal, but without capacity.
In Bellevue, I see times have not changed the past 25-30 years. It was the same way in the 90's. Gaps in prophesying. Same people prophesying. Brother Sherman would get tired of it always being the same and would ask for a new voice. Well, the brothers don't want to hear this and never have, but the Holy Word for Monring Revival produced a clergy/laity system.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

When I was meeting with Renton, the lead elder has since passed. He was the most capable in regard to being personable. The ones as found at https://secure.dor.wa.gov/gteunauth/_/#2 struck me as being loyal, but without capacity.
In Bellevue, I see times have not changed the past 25-30 years. It was the same way in the 90's. Gaps in prophesying. Same people prophesying. Brother Sherman would get tired of it always being the same and would ask for a new voice. Well, the brothers don't want to hear this and never have, but the Holy Word for Monring Revival produced a clergy/laity system.

Yep basically. Bilheimer passed away and the elder brothers there who SHOULD have taken the lead actually deferred responsibilities to three young brothers in their early 40's, one of whom has recently moved to Virginia beach. But they absolutely are way too young to be in that position and they absolutely lack the humanity, the broadness of heart, and the experience of life and just life experience in general to be in that positions and it shows. They're very loyal like you said, and have much fealty for the recovery. But they just don't have the maturity to lead a congregation with much personal impact. They certainly do their jobs as far as like standing up and closing the meetings and giving announcements, but they sit in the front row like kings and it's very annoying. Spokane wasn't like that. The elders there were very laid back and they just let the congregation function. The spirit was so palpable and prevailing in Spokane that if there was a clergy there you just didn't notice it. At least it wasn't controlling like it is in Western Washington. Which I loved about that locality. In Renton you can see their control over the congregation, and it absolutely looks like clergy-laity. But I don't think really anyone notices or can really tell because they're ignorant. Even the young leading brothers are kind of in the dark about their control......or maybe they like it idk. It's very easy to revel in your position and accomplishments and for me it really just kills the atmosphere to a great degree. Maybe I need to take the cross idk, but I have never really liked the concept of authority over others and they seem to revel in it. One of them is like a real "Dudley do right" type and he comes across so phoney and fake, and he actually really is when I got into certain experiences with him recently. You know how when you're talking to someone and you can just tell that person thinks they're better than you. Yeah, his true colors showed forth. Very people pleaser type of disposition also, but it's all lip service. Very little ability to be real and reach people

But in general I just wish the clergy-laity crap would go away and the function of the body would come out. Renton was much closer to Spokane in that regard than Bellevue or Seattle, but you can still easily see the clergy there in Renton. Which to me.....idk, it's kind of a form of Laodicea. There's actually four older brothers in Renton that are in their late 60's and 70's who DO have the growth in life to lead and should, but they deferred the responsibilities to these younger brothers. Actually one of those four kind of unofficially acts like an elder and spends more time in that capacity, and even he acts a little weird, although I like him somewhat. I felt a little bit of his wife thinking she was in an honored position because he is one of the co-founders of that locality. I can always tell when an elder's wife revels in her husbands supposed authority. That's female nature for you, but anyway it exposes a lot sometimes and you can tell

But I will say that at least in Renton the general pursuit of the enjoyment of Christ is more genuine than in Bellevue. Bellevue was pretty bad as far as really enjoying the spirit and enjoying the Lord. It was a very stunted locality in that sense. But even Renton has a kind of veneer about it, that is akin to a stage performance. I've thought a lot about it over the years, and one conclusion I've come to is that the people east of the Cascades are liberals and liberals tend to be very phoney and pretentious people, and I think a lot of that seeps into the church culture. Another conclusion is that a congregation often reflects its leaders and as I said before there's a lot of kind of fake leadership there, and the administration is just far too young

[Ohio]

Jay, I know this may be hard for you to accept, but the problem is NOT that there is a “clergy-laity system” in the meetings, but that those in the lead are abusive, and lack love and maturity. As the Bible says, they “lord it over” the flock. As the O.T. Prophets often said, they are worthless shepherds. They were selected, not because they possessed the qualifications prescribed in scripture, but because of loyalty to “the ministry” at LSM. They are not faithful and obedient to the Lord and His word, but to WL, his Blendeds, and their “up-to-date” books. Ha!

Not recognizing who are the legitimate elders in the church meetings is like walking into a home and not recognizing who are the parents.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not recognizing who are the legitimate elders in the church meetings is like walking into a home and not recognizing who are the parents.

solid point. as I said in my last post there are four older brothers there who in my view are obviously the elders because they have the growth in life. however they decided to defer the responsibility to these young gung ho guys. could that be laziness? or maybe they're too old? but the fact is that these young guys are NOT qualified, I've seen and experienced their lack. they are full of energy and full of zeal for the most part, but they don't have the growth of Christ, the maturity, and the experience to really help. I suppose you could call them leaders in that they outwardly pursue righteousness I suppose. but as far as being genuine elders and shepherds, no I don't see it

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jay, I know this may be hard for you to accept, but the problem is NOT that there is a “clergy-laity system” in the meetings, but that those in the lead are abusive, and lack love and maturity. As the Bible says, they “lord it over” the flock. As the O.T. Prophets often said, they are worthless shepherds. They were selected, not because they possessed the qualifications prescribed in scripture, but because of loyalty to “the ministry” at LSM. They are not faithful and obedient to the Lord and His word, but to WL, his Blendeds, and their “up-to-date” books. Ha!

could be. this is a theory that I don't have a great deal of experience in, however some things happened with these young brothers in Renton recently and I've seen another side to the church and coming to this website and reading this type of information and ex members sharing their experiences about this is painting a picture of what you're talking about. I came up against these young brothers "authority" recently in a decision they made involving not helping a needy member and I think they were totally wrong in doing so, but when an appeal was made to them they just ignored and deflected. which is similar to what the blendeds did when confronted with the truth about how brother Lee was damaging the body by protecting his son and his whole fraudulent business scandal. they pull the authority card when it suits and benefits their agenda. and to me that's not Christ at all. so I'm seeing another side of the church life that I don't think is right. but it's also a side that I don't think many average members know about because so much of what they do is hidden and behind closed doors where they make decisions for the church without the church even knowing what's going on. it seems they do this on purpose. which to me is really clergy like. they have an attitude like they're the higher ranking ones and we all are not even bright enough to see what's going on. or like an attitude of "we know what's best for you." a kind of assumed arrogance. it's off putting to say the least

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jay

But in general I just wish the clergy-laity crap would go away and the function of the body would come out. Renton was much closer to Spokane in that regard than Bellevue or Seattle, but you can still easily see the clergy there in Renton. Which to me.....idk, it's kind of a form of Laodicea. There's actually four older brothers in Renton that are in their late 60's and 70's who DO have the growth in life to lead and should, but they deferred the responsibilities to these younger brothers. Actually one of those four kind of unofficially acts like an elder and spends more time in that capacity, and even he acts a little weird, although I like him somewhat. I felt a little bit of his wife thinking she was in an honored position because he is one of the co-founders of that locality. I can always tell when an elder's wife revels in her husbands supposed authority. That's female nature for you, but anyway it exposes a lot sometimes and you can tell.

Reminded me of the time I was visiting one church years ago - not LC. One sister introduced herself casually as, “Oh, I’m Andy’s wife.” I remember thinking to myself, “I guess everybody knows Andy except me.” So I went ahead and expressed my naivety as a new guest with a smile, “so, who is this Andy?”