Rev 2:2 Discerning the self appointed apostles

[TheStarswillFall]

Not sure whether Rev 2:2 has been discussed on this forum wrt W Lee: Testing the self appointed apostles.

Witness Lee approved the signing of a letter by 400+ leading brothers in the Lord's Recovery (1986?) wherein absolute subjection to Witness Lee's ministry is demanded for the apparent preservation of oneness among the Lord’s people. This is heretical. The saints in the Lord's Recovery are in bondage to W Lee's ministry, and the signed letter is a token of their bondage. Christ has a second incarnation in W Lee in the LC.

Matt 23: 1-12 is one of the most valuable portions in Scripture to hold on to. Self appointment and self-exultation are the essential markers of rogue leadership among the Lord's people. The Pharisees seated themselves in Moses's seat, in other words, they were self appointed (to a place of spiritual authority). They also loved the places of honour and to be called 'rabbi' by men, in other words, they lusted after the recognition and exultation of man (wrt their spiritual office).

Christ admonished his apostles not to be called 'rabbi' or father or instructor, because that place (seat) is only reserved for Christ (and the Father). He who exults himself will be humbled.

In the series of the Elders' Training (Book 7) W Lee claimed to be:
(1) the top apostle (who all the churches must recognise as their unique leader)
(2) the only qualified master builder capable of overseeing all of God's building
(3) the only commander and chief of the church as God's army.
All of these claims were self assuming.

10 years later W Lee said in "A Word of Love" that he never called himself an apostle!
Rev 2:2 mentions the lies of the self-appointed apostles.

And you have tried (tested) those who call themselves apostles, and are not, and you have found them to be false.

Originally Posted by TheStarswillFall

Not sure whether Rev 2:2 has been discussed on this forum wrt W Lee: Testing the self appointed apostles.

In the series of the Elders' Training (Book 7) W Lee claimed to be:
(1) the top apostle (who all the churches must recognise as their unique leader)
(2) the only qualified master builder capable of overseeing all of God's building
(3) the only commander and chief of the church as God's army.
All of these claims were self assuming.

Does anyone have a copy of this Elders' Training (Book 7) W Lee and can post this here? I have only heard about it, but never actually seen a hard copy or a message.

[ACuriousFellow]

Lee’s main concern in the first chapter of Elders' Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord's Move seems to be the ambition of the elders, yet he wastes no time in highlighting Watchman Nee as the leader of The Lord’s Recovery (p.74). It is ironic that Lee simultaneously denounces formalities while within one page of writing he immediately emphasizes that the messengers, or “stars,” should be the ones that are followed without question lest the church become degraded. The dichotomy with Nee/Lee and the elders is quite interesting. When Nee or Lee had a “leading from the Lord” and spoke up against “Christendom,” they were humbly doing God’s will in his “recovery,” but when the elders’ had a similar leading that happened to go against what Nee or Lee wanted, it was just “ambition.” This idea is further strengthened by a metaphor included in the book comparing God’s people to an army (p. 77). This analogy is not in and of itself a bad one. We are exhorted to put on the armor of God and fight against powers and principalities. Comparing God’s people to an army is not unreasonable. However, Lee uses this comparison to label as “dissenters” all those who went against his and Nee’s teachings, even if they were elders. Not even the elders have any right to question the leader of The Lord’s Recovery, for such a “star,” or apostle, is clearly above the elders. How, then, shall such an apostle be tested? Surely it is by searching the scriptures and testing all things, but when you realize that these so-called modern “apostles” say that they are the only ones who have the right interpretation of the scriptures, you can begin to understand the caution with which many approach such a concept of absolute spiritual authority. We can only question Lee and Nee, these “apostles,” by using the word of God, but you can only measure them by their own interpretation of the word of God. Such an issue is certainly not limited to this sect/denomination known as The Lord’s Recovery and sometimes referred to as “The Local Churches,” but as ex-members, we are here to focus on what we have seen and witnessed both in teaching and in practice within this group.

(Elders' Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord's Move, from The Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1986, Volume 1, Chapter 1: One Accord, published by Living Stream Ministry, available on ministrybooks.org with a paid subscription)

[ACuriousFellow]

Lee further laments that the elders that Nee had trained did not want to follow his teachings to the letter, and equated Nee’s teachings to The Lord’s Recovery. Nee’s teachings were not said to be part of The Lord’s Recovery, but were The Lord’s Recovery (p. 78). equivalence further cements the idea that one absolutely cannot carry out God’s will unless it is done exactly as Nee and Lee say it should be done. Ironically, this only serves to further reinforce the “formality” within the church that Nee and Lee claimed to despise so much, only that rather than it being spread out amongst the elders, it was only relegated to the ones leading The Lord’s Recovery (i.e. Nee and Lee). Formality within the church is not ok for elders like John Ingalls and Steve Isitt, but it is for apostles like Nee and Lee who can only have their authority tested by their own interpretation of the scriptures. This is a dangerous and self-reinforcing system of church leadership that is surely not new in the history of the church. To further critique the dissenting elders of the past, Lee alludes to Corinthians where Paul criticizes the saints for becoming exclusive and prideful in their association with certain apostles (p. 81). Some would say they were of Paul, thinking themselves better than others. Some would say they were of Apollos, doing the same. Others would say they were of Christ, which was also criticized. It is important to note, however, that Paul was not criticizing the leading ones (himself, Apollos, and Christ himself) who surely had their own unique way of practicing the ministry, but the prideful attitudes of those who were baptized by Paul, Apollos, or who knew Christ personally. Despite this, Lee and the leaders of The Lord’s Recovery insist that they are of Nee and/or of Lee. They will deny this because they say they are “for the Lord’s Recovery,” but in truth Lee has already established that The Lord’s Recovery can only come from Nee and Lee’s personal interpretation and their own preferences for how the church should be managed. As such, anyone who says they are for "the Lord's recovery" are indeed just advocating for a decades-old, man-made system established by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. Even to this day we can see that The Lord’s Recovery is surely just another man-made concept that should not hold such strong precedent, especially when only two dead men are allowed to interpret the entirety of scripture and have the sole authority to determine what God's move is in this day and age despite the multitude of scriptures that we have available to us and the spirit of discernment that God gives to all who ask.

(Elders' Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord's Move, from The Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1986, Volume 1, Chapter 1: One Accord, published by Living Stream Ministry, available on ministrybooks.org with a paid subscription)

[ACuriousFellow]

It is tragically ironic that Lee could not follow his own warning of repeating "the pitiful history of Christianity by being another group of Christians repeating the same kind of disaccord" (p. 83). Instead, he declared war on every other Christian group that did not submit to his singular interpretation of the scriptures. There was no room for disagreement or variation in day-to-day practice. You must worship according to Lee's teaching. You must name your church according to Lee's teaching. You must submit unquestionably according to Lee's teaching. You must pray and pray-read according to Lee's teaching. You must call according to Lee's teaching. You must use only the publications of Living Stream Ministry according to Lee's teaching. We all had to be in "the one accord" in every matter of our lives, and that one accord could come only from the teachings and practices of Nee and Lee. To question the practices of "Christendom" was perfectly acceptable and an almost daily practice as many here can attest, but to question the practices of The Lord's Recovery was tantamount to treason against God since we were questioning his representative authority on earth.

(Elders' Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord's Move, from The Collected Works of Witness Lee, 1986, Volume 1, Chapter 1: One Accord, published by Living Stream Ministry, available on ministrybooks.org with a paid subscription)

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Does anyone have a copy of this Elders' Training (Book 7) W Lee and can post this here? I have only heard about it, but never actually seen a hard copy or a message.

Unregistered - thanks for asking! Book #7 of the Elders' Training (Mostly Brainwashing IMHO) by Witness Lee can be examined in it's entirety by means of this direct link: BibleRead.Online

CAUTION: Please enter that website at your own risk because the LSM Corporation in Anaheim has pretty much declared it to be a river of death...

P.S.

[ACuriousFellow]

I am grateful to this Ukrainian brother Ruslan Skuratov. I would not likely have heard John Ingalls' testimony if it weren't for someone bold like him who was willing to publish it online.

He's also certainly a brave one for publishing LSM materials which usually require a paid subscription to access. It is those very materials that hold within them the strangest and most concerning of Lee's statements and teachings. I find this to be quite an interesting coincidence. I've heard a few staunch defenders talking about how they hide nothing and that all their publications and teachings are freely available on their website, but it seems that this isn't quite the truth.

Ah well. I certainly agree with the elders who wrote that letter: there is certainly some spiritual poison on that Ukrainian brother's website, but that's only because it has so much of LSM's publications on it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

Unregistered - thanks for asking! Book #7 of the Elders' Training (Mostly Brainwashing IMHO) by Witness Lee can be examined in it's entirety by means of this direct link: BibleRead.Online

CAUTION: Please enter that website at your own risk because the LSM Corporation in Anaheim has pretty much declared it to be a river of death...

P.S.

PS,

Do you know what edition this is? I couldn’t find it on the website.

There are at least 2 editions. At one time I had the original. Years ago I confronted someone on a matter and cited my original as my authority. The other person looked it up in their copy and my quote didn’t exist. So, once again, the LSM scrubbed their original text.

Nell

[Zezima]

This is from the elders training chapter being mentioned:

” The landmark that divides the Gospels and the Acts was not the baptism in the Holy Spirit. The landmark was the one accord of the one hundred twenty. If you want to experience the baptism in the Spirit, you must have the one accord. If all the members of a local church have the one accord, the baptism in the Spirit will be there. If you really want to practice the proper way to preach the gospel, you need the one accord.”

Show me one verse in the entire Bible that supports this contextually. I’ll wait…

[Nell]

This is from the elders training chapter being mentioned:

Show me one verse in the entire Bible that supports this contextually. I’ll wait…

The quote you provided from the ET #7 is a doctrine of demons.

Nell

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Show me one verse in the entire Bible that supports this contextually. I’ll wait…

Well, the first eight verses of Genesis chapter eleven seem to line up with Lee's hidden agenda (to make a name for himself & his spiritual Father).

The ancient version of the "One Accord" depicted there in Genesis seems to have caught the attention of some kind of supernatural influence, that encouraged their well coordinated & funded construction project as it moved both forward and upward...until it was ultimately abandoned due to God's intervention.

The Lord's Recovery seems to be begging for a similar intervention - IMHO



P.S.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Nell

PS,

Do you know what edition this is? I couldn’t find it on the website.

There are at least 2 editions. At one time I had the original. Years ago I confronted someone on a matter and cited my original as my authority. The other person looked it up in their copy and my quote didn’t exist. So, once again, the LSM scrubbed their original text.

Nell

Nell, I contacted the person who runs the Bible-Read Website and they don't know which version of Elders Training Book #7 the text originated from..

The hard-copy of Book #7 which I own states "First Edition, 6,250 copies, June 1986".

Feel free to dig up for me any of those sections which may have been "sanitized" and I will be happy to check them out.

P.S.