A Curious Fellow's Introduction

[ACuriousFellow]

Hello there! Don’t know who’ll see this, but I figure I’ll add a bit of my story to this site. I met with a local church for a little over nine years. I met them as a freshman in college. For many years, I was involved in their Christians on Campus college ministry as a student, participating in just about every event/meeting they had. I enjoyed my time there, and over the years I developed what I believed were strong connections with my mentor, a full-timer and now elder. He served as a father-figure to me and I often butted heads with him regarding the scriptures and various other trivial matters. Exactly as a son should, right? Anyhow, I became one of the leading students on campus, helping to reach out to and usher in many new ones to our group and setting up meetings and whatnot. My favorite way to help was to lead the singing times with my (most likely) obnoxiously loud voice and my guitar. I went to most of the college conferences, internship trainings (these were trainings for students who were interested in reaching out to the incoming freshmen during the summer months), internships (already described), bible studies, Saturday fun times, Lord’s day meetings, etc. I joined the children’s ministry and worked with the coordinator for seven years up until the point where I left. In my later years in The Lord’s Recovery, I often also worked with a certain woman who had a heart to restart the young people’s meetings since they were dropped during the splendiferous COVID era. Many of the years were good to me, and I am grateful that God provided me with a community to keep me alive during what was an extended period of chronic depression and one gratefully small period where I experienced passively suicidal tendencies (lasted about a week or two). As the years went on, I picked up on more and more of the common red flags that ex-members pick up on, and one particular incident occurred back in January which was my tipping point. The last several months have served as a detox period for me, and although they’ve been painful, I’ve been feeling greater and greater relief after having left The Lord’s Recovery. It was also after my departure that I decided to do more research and ended up finding out that the history of The Lord’s Recovery is rife with controversy, abuse, and conflict. The most striking stories for me were those of Jo and Greg Casteel, Harvest House Publishers, and John Ingalls’ testimony in his book “Speaking the Truth in Love.” Anyhoo, that seems like enough for an introduction.

Yours truly,

A Curious Fellow

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I met with a local church for a little over nine years. I met them as a freshman in college. For many years, I was involved in their Christians on Campus college ministry as a student, participating in just about every event/meeting they had.

Thanks for the introduction. Many former LC participants came in under similar fashion. I was a college sophomore, struggling with adulthood and a 'party' lifestyle that was killing me, low self-esteem, few social skills, and suddenly I was sober, "God's best", sitting on the front row. It totally fed my ego - suddenly I was special. That ego feed helped me overlook a lot of questionable things.

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I went to most of the college conferences, internship trainings (these were trainings for students who were interested in reaching out to the incoming freshmen during the summer months), internships (already described), bible studies, Saturday fun times, Lord’s day meetings, etc. I joined the children’s ministry and worked with the coordinator for 7 years...

Same here, I was in whole hog, "burning for the Lord and the church" etc. It had advantages. All my questions had answers, and those without pat answers were quickly dismissed by focus on "enjoyment" and other such "just keep eating, just keep drinking" mindlessness. Red flags: I read the book "Fermentation of the Present Rebellion" by Witness Lee, which was shocking to say the least, and heard of far-off rebellions but they were obliquely referenced and I knew instinctively not to ask too much. Just keep eating, just keep drinking...

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

The most striking stories for me were those of Jo and Greg Casteel, Harvest House Publishers, and John Ingalls’ testimony in his book “Speaking the Truth in Love.”

I also read "Hope" (Don Rutledge) in "Writings of former members" section, who was in the early USA years, knew WL well, got a front-row view of Daystar. Also "Indiana" (Steve Isitt) who was told by WL, "We have to find out what happened to those who left", and when Indiana did so, they tried to quiet him. Both of those histories are revealing, coming from a group that was so reticent.

The more you dig, the more you understand. Why would anyone join this group? Why stay on, as it feels more and more troubling, less the magical dream world it was sold as, you know, the "glorious church life"? It all starts to look less rosy, but then people stay on - why? Examining the history from several angles opens it up and explained a lot. Of course, others may say not to bother, or may quit in confusion, but for me, it all began to make sense.

As an example, I noticed Watchman Nee had close 'senior' and 'apostolic' co-workers that were women - Peace Wang and Lee. Look in WL biography - "A Seer of the Divine Revelation" and there's a whole chapter on these pillars, along with similar 'lights' like Dora Yu, Margaret Barber, Miss Elizabeth Fischbacher (travelling companion and speech transcriber). Yet, no woman could be local elder or deacon under Lee... when I asked why, only one person responded, "That's because the situation was different with Nee." Otherwise, nobody would touch the question. And yet even Lee's biography said Ruth Lee was a person of 'great spiritual weight'. So you realize there's compartmentalization going on. Inharmonious parts of proposed worldviews are being walled off from each other, because they can't be reconciled.

Another example: I noticed some Psalms railing against foes called "Christ defeating Satan" in the RecV footnotes. Likewise, where David killed Goliath, Saul slew Agag, Joshua put people to the sword, etc, was interpreted as "We're fighting for the Lord and His interests." Usually, however, such Psalms are dismissed with comments of "low" and "natural", because the RecV says "we all know we must bless and not curse, and turn the other cheek". I asked why the contradictions, and was told, "Maybe that's how it is", by a previously loquacious defender of all things Recovery. And, nobody else would even touch the issue.

Another example: a young woman was there and heard Nee confess to producing and holding pornography. She published the book on what she saw and heard, and if you look on Amazon, one review goes to great length and detail, how the book was "shoddy" (it was), how the author was biased (she was), how poorly the Chinese Communists treated Christians (which they did), but nothing on Nee's actual confession in court, which underpinned the whole book.

https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta...ps%2C96&sr=8-1

My point is that what you'll see, here and elsewhere, that people can go on and on about things that help construct and preserve their worldview, but will "wall off" aspects of the very same reality and experience that question or challenge it. Certain verses (or parts of verses [!!]) will get exhaustive attention while whole sections are waved away as irrelevant and faulty, as "fallen human concepts." Stories are repeated again and again, but unhelpful parts of those very same stories are scrupulously ignored. The more you look, the more you realize that you're seeing the creation and maintenance of a very deliberately and carefully circumscribed worldview. If the "wrong things" get in, it will collapse.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I also started looking into the church history, including the "We Were Wrong" article. Jo Casteel. John Ingalls. Phillip Lee, Steve Isitt, Daystar, Harvest House, SCP, Andrea McArdle, Titus Chu, John Myer, and more.

The more I read, the more my heart was grieved. It was torn into a million pieces. I did not want it to be true, but I knew it was. [My friend] asked if I've read Witness Lee's works. I want to ask "have you?" I found out that he started doing research into it all just like I did, but he decided to stop because it was too unpleasant.

Any group that reaches a certain critical mass of mutually reinforcing social interactions can keep it going by feeding members circular reasoning, and cutting them off from outside information. A few will get objective information and leave the group, or will heed the red flags, but most will remain.**

A: "Witness Lee is the minister of the age. Look at all the revelations that he saw. Nobody else gave us the lofty vision of God's economy except WL."

Q: "But how do you know his vision of God's economy is according the NT? Have you actually examined it?"

A: "It's from the wise master builder himself! How dare you question God's deputy authority! That would be rebellion against God!"

So, the teaching carries it's own 'poison pill' that provides a buffer against critical examination and exposure. As long as a sufficient number of people speak this to each other, it can go on indefinitely. Then with Living Stream, there are various campus recruitment teams and post-Uni training centres round the globe, stuffing their brains with this supposed vision, and continually warning them of outsiders.

Look at the Mormons - there's no independent evidence that I know of, showing us that the current Native Americans were descended from the 10 Lost Tribes of Israel. Yet the Latter Day Saints church, founded solely on this supposed revelation from God, continues apace, as if that glaring lack of corroboration isn't relevant. They didn't have DNA testing in 1823, but they do in 2023, yet a religious body which should be most interested in finding out remains deliberately unawares, and resolutely obtuse, as if centuries hadn't passed. It's as if the effort had now become intrinsically valid, just because they have large stone buildings and libraries, as if Joseph Smith's revelations were from heaven. Look at the golden angel statue with the trumpet! How could this not be from God?

Or the Luz Del Mundo church from Mexico, with several hundred thousand members spread through North America. Their current leader is in Federal penitentiary for sexually assaulting minors. Yet the group continues, telling one another that he's being persecuted for his faith. He's God's apostle - how could he have done what they say? It must be all lies, an attack from Satan.

So, the web of mental concepts and social relations are enduring. Additionally, Living Stream operatives can drop hundreds of millions of dollars in donations and real estate investments at Harvard and its environs to aid campus recruiting. They own an apartment building - they must be legit, right? They can buy off former critics like Christian Research Institute. Their leaders host international trade meetings with the likes of Russia's Putin. Surely WN and WL would be pleased with the work of such devoted followers. The entire narrative is that this organizational mass equates to "God's building". Everything useful for today's narrative is shoehorned in, and anything unhelpful is excluded pro forma.

**There are a few high-profile cases where the "ministry" is exposed as an invalid sham and the whole thing collapses into utter ruin, but that's rare. See, e.g., Ravi Zacharias and RZIM.

[Robert]

Hello!
God bless You in Jesus Christ!
I wish You quick recovery and growth in Christ!
What You described is very common way of Christendom:" I was there, doing this, we did this..."
Very opposite to disciple of Christ talking about his beloved.
No matter what group we can attend, but this very simple rule can help us recognize even our own heart's condition.
Believe me or not, but several saints visited my home ( I am still open, as brother of Christ should be) and for over 2 hours not that much was spoken about Lord. It was hard to come to flow of life.
Two day ago: 5,5 hours in "saints" house, only my few sentences about Bible. Haaard to talk with "saints" about Lord and Bible at homes.
God bless You and have a good time with our Lord in His Word!

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Robert

Hello!
God bless You in Jesus Christ!

Thanks for the blessing. I hear what you're saying. When I was in The Lord's Recovery I noticed that it got rarer and rarer for people to share from the scriptures as the years went on. They often preferred to share from Witness Lee's books rather than the word of God, and anyone who challenged Lee's teachings using the scriptures was often ignored, shunned, told to be silent, or told to leave. It was quite disheartening to see that the denomination that calls itself The Lord's Recovery turned out to be much like the "Christendom" that they claimed was so degraded, deformed, devilish, and satanic. Just another organization full of hierarchy with much truth concealed by tradition and faulty religion. Luckily, I've been blessed with much fellowship outside of that sect created by Witness Lee. I've found people who actually prefer the bible to Witness Lee's works, and we've fellowshipped sweetly over the scriptures at homes, at church, over lunch, and online. I've also had a proper opportunity to test scriptures and debate with brothers and sisters regarding the truth of the scriptures, and it has provided much growth in my knowledge and love of God's word, in my love for my brothers and sisters, and in my patience and grace with those who hold different ideas than me. The Lord has been good to me by removing me from such a deadened and lifeless group as The Lord's Recovery. For this, I give him praise.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by aron

Any group that reaches a certain critical mass of mutually reinforcing social interactions can keep it going by feeding members circular reasoning, and cutting them off from outside information. A few will get objective information and leave the group, or will heed the red flags, but most will remain.**

Yeah... but at least I have realized that many college students that initially join the group each semester do end up leaving because they smell something in the air. That gives me a modicum of peace. I do, however, realize that the longer one stays, the harder it will be for them to leave.

A: "Witness Lee is the minister of the age. Look at all the revelations that he saw. Nobody else gave us the lofty vision of God's economy except WL."

Q: "But how do you know his vision of God's economy is according the NT? Have you actually examined it?"

A: "It's from the wise master builder himself! How dare you question God's deputy authority! That would be rebellion against God!"

Ew. Yeah. This sounds about right. As I've mentioned before, this is what stabbed deeply at my heart when I saw the "Special Fellowship" that spoke so harshly against a sister who was crying out for help. I could understand how many of my peers would choose to stay. They don't know many of these things and refuse to do the research when they hear about it. But my mentor? That father figure of mine? My father for all intents an purposes? Can it be that a man who has gone through the full time training and has worked his way up to be an elder is ignorant of such things? The high probability of his complacency and approval regarding these heartbreaking truths shook me to my core, especially after what I myself had witnessed not long before hearing of Jo's story.

So, the teaching carries it's own 'poison pill' that provides a buffer against critical examination and exposure. As long as a sufficient number of people speak this to each other, it can go on indefinitely. Then with Living Stream, there are various campus recruitment teams and post-Uni training centres round the globe, stuffing their brains with this supposed vision, and continually warning them of outsiders.

Yeah. They put a lot of effort into stopping critical thought within their meetings, be they grand or small, with a multitude or just one-on-one. Oftentimes they do it very passively, using excuses like "oh, I have an idea! Let's call on the Lord x number of times!" or "Amen! It's so great that we don't have to worry about such things because we are only about LIFE! Oh Lord Jesus!"

So, the web of mental concepts and social relations are enduring. Additionally, Living Stream operatives can drop hundreds of millions of dollars in donations and real estate investments at Harvard and its environs to aid campus recruiting. They own an apartment building - they must be legit, right? They can buy off former critics like Christian Research Institute. Their leaders host international trade meetings with the likes of Russia's Putin. Surely WN and WL would be pleased with the work of such devoted followers. The entire narrative is that this organizational mass equates to "God's building". Everything useful for today's narrative is shoehorned in, and anything unhelpful is excluded pro forma.

Learning about their pool of wealth and how they use it to exercise influence and silence others also sent shivers of my spine. Once again: that the odds highly favor my mentor's compliance with such things makes me nauseated.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

"Amen! It's so great that we don't have to worry about such things because we are only about LIFE! Oh Lord Jesus!"

One of the leading brothers named Gerald Chan is on record at the Harvard School of Public Health commencement address, saying that they should read widely, debate and discuss, and come up with ideas. "Life should be rich with ideas."

This means that not just Witness Lee's ideas, but all ideas should be open to examination and debate. Watchman Nee was famous for doing just that, for looking at the sweep of Christian history and reframing them to his own ideas (aka 'revelation'). Any of us can, and should do this, according to Chan.

So, we have two choices. Either we can be two-faced and go back to church and pretend we didn't hear this, or we own it. Either people should read widely and think deeply, discuss and debate, or they shouldn't. Obviously with my volume of posts on this forum, I agree with Chan's publicly stated position.

Why were local church websites instructed by Anaheim to put, "affiliated with Watchman Nee, Witness Lee" if they were local? By that matter isn't the Catholic diocese affiliated with Rome also local? You are either local and autonomous, or you are affiliated, according to WN's own definition, when he started the Little Flock. How can you possibly be both local and affiliated?

How could WN have senior apostolic co-workers who were women, when WL 80 years later wouldn't allow women to give a Sunday morning message in the congregation? Where would Dora Yu fit in WL's glorious church life?

How could some Psalms of imprecation be said to be types of Christ victorious over Satan, whilst others were deemed fallen, natural human concepts, as we should turn the other cheek and love our enemies? Should David have turned the other cheek with Goliath? It appears nonsensical.

How can there be 6 different centers of the universe? The throne of God, the tree of life, the human spirit, the altar of God, etc etc? All were variously posited by WL as the center of the universe. A simple Google search shows this.

I'm sure local church members, could come up with more, if they were given the freedom to think, to discuss and debate. Or was that public urging to ruminate and reflect, and come up with novel postulations just lip service from the group leader? Just window dressing to keep up appearances, or another layer of whitewash?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Why were local church websites instructed by Anaheim to put, "affiliated with Watchman Nee, Witness Lee" if they were local? By that matter isn't the Catholic diocese affiliated with Rome also local? You are either local and autonomous, or you are affiliated, according to WN's own definition, when he started the Little Flock. How can you possibly be both local and affiliated?

By the time that we in the greater Ohio LC region were convinced that LSM would definitely quarantine/ expel/ brand us heretics and divisive/ excommunicate us, etc., the evidence was absolutely and overwhelming clear that the Recovery in ecclesiastic structure, hierarchy, so-called oneness, and control over member church teachings had become identical to the Roman Catholic church.

No doubt about it. Even Lee himself said that local elders had the local "authority" to decide what time the church prayer meeting would begin. Nothing more than that. Elders were not able to decide the content or ministry of their meetings. Their song book was decided, along with the permissible musical accompaniment. Quotas were established for offerings to Anaheim (and Cleveland too) and training attendance numbers. Elders were surveilled to check compliance.

[ThankfulForever777]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Thanks for the blessing. I hear what you're saying. When I was in The Lord's Recovery I noticed that it got rarer and rarer for people to share from the scriptures as the years went on. They often preferred to share from Witness Lee's books rather than the word of God, and anyone who challenged Lee's teachings using the scriptures was often ignored, shunned, told to be silent, or told to leave. It was quite disheartening to see that the denomination that calls itself The Lord's Recovery turned out to be much like the "Christendom" that they claimed was so degraded, deformed, devilish, and satanic. Just another organization full of hierarchy with much truth concealed by tradition and faulty religion. Luckily, I've been blessed with much fellowship outside of that sect created by Witness Lee. I've found people who actually prefer the bible to Witness Lee's works, and we've fellowshipped sweetly over the scriptures at homes, at church, over lunch, and online. I've also had a proper opportunity to test scriptures and debate with brothers and sisters regarding the truth of the scriptures, and it has provided much growth in my knowledge and love of God's word, in my love for my brothers and sisters, and in my patience and grace with those who hold different ideas than me. The Lord has been good to me by removing me from such a deadened and lifeless group as The Lord's Recovery. For this, I give him praise.

I can relate to your experience. Approximately 10 months ago, I chose to discontinue my involvement with the local sect of Witness Lee. We were taught that Christianity is degraded, shallow, and divided. However, my personal experience has shown me something quite different. After I left the Lord's recovery, the Lord graciously connected me with numerous sincere and Bible-grounded believers. Presently, I participate in a weekly Bible Study Men's group hosted by my neighbors. Additionally, we host a bi-weekly Bible study with another group of believers. I've had the pleasure of meeting other wonderful believers as well. Notably, these individuals come from various churches and hold differing doctrinal beliefs. Surprisingly, despite these differences, we've managed to have unity without any hidden agendas. Our primary focus is to delve deeper into the truths found in the Bible and seek to please God in all that we do.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by ThankfulForever777

I can relate to your experience. Approximately 10 months ago, I chose to discontinue my involvement with the local sect of Witness Lee. We were taught that Christianity is degraded, shallow, and divided. However, my personal experience has shown me something quite different. After I left the Lord's recovery, the Lord graciously connected me with numerous sincere and Bible-grounded believers. Presently, I participate in a weekly Bible Study Men's group hosted by my neighbors. Additionally, we host a bi-weekly Bible study with another group of believers. I've had the pleasure of meeting other wonderful believers as well. Notably, these individuals come from various churches and hold differing doctrinal beliefs. Surprisingly, despite these differences, we've managed to have unity without any hidden agendas. Our primary focus is to delve deeper into the truths found in the Bible and seek to please God in all that we do.

Although I am by no means surprised, I am always disheartened to hear that more people have had such experiences within the Local Churches. I am glad, however, that you have found fellowship with others outside of that group. Many people who grow weary and burdened by the discrepancies of the "Ministry of the Age" are often in desperate need of such things. It is particularly telling that many people who met with these churches often find that other assemblies are not "degraded" and "deformed" as Witness Lee would have all believe, but are often times filled with genuine and biblically sound believers.

Perhaps one day the next generation of believers within The Lord's Recovery will be willing to take a hard look and realize what has been happening throughout the history of that denomination/sect and make a genuine effort to acknowledge the mistakes of the past and to adjust themselves and let go of their collective pride.