Spiritual Warfare

[Nell]

Spiritual Warfare

What do we know?
Luke 22:31-32 (KJV)
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

This verse has always been chilling to me, as well as encouraging.
Spiritual Warfare is real and often minimized and dismissed as something that doesn't happen today. How can anyone look around at this world today and NOT believe that Spiritual Warfare is real.

Because of the following post on another thread and many others like it lately, it should be obvious that something is going on that needs to be discussed and call it what it is: Spiritual Warfare.

Originally Posted by Unregistered
I grew up in this church. It took tremendous courage to #walkaway @ 18. I have spent many hours to re-write my brain from the deleterious effects of this wicked cult.
...
$250,000 of therapy later...I'm still working Mr. Lee's energetic teachings of severe separation out of my system. I believe people are taught to actually pray and curse against people in prayer meetings. Some dense and wicked energy moves through the vacant soul's, unfortunately, I don't think it is the love of Christ. Over time people shut down their heart more and more and more and are easily controlled. You must have a low self esteem to begin with and it will degrade slowly over time.
...

The Local Church of Witness Lee, as horrific as it is being exposed to be, is not the source of the problem. It’s much more sinister than that. How is that possible?

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV) 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Based on Ephesians 6:12, this statement is absolutely true:

"I believe people are taught to actually pray and curse against people in prayer meetings. Some dense and wicked energy moves through the vacant soul's..."

How long has this been going on? Long before the Local Church ever existed.

Genesis 3:14-15
14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

God's enemny has been fighting against God's people ever since enmity was declared between Satan and the woman.

The topic created by Igzy in 2008 are timely and appropriate today…11 years later and will be appropriate until God’s enemy is ultimately dealt with. No one gets a free pass. The LC leadership knows these truths as well as we do, yet close their eyes to the truth in God’s word, excusing their own toxic behavior at the expense of their brothers and sisters.

Nell

[Nell]

Watch the following excellent video by Neil T. Anderson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, the answers are excellent.

Nell

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Nell

"I believe people are taught to actually pray and curse against people in prayer meetings. Some dense and wicked energy moves through the vacant soul's..."

How long has this been going on? Long before the Local Church ever existed

9 And Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews? 10 For he perceived that for envy the chief priests had delivered him up. 11 But the chief priests stirred up the multitude, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them. 12 And Pilate again answered and said unto them, What then shall I do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews? 13 And they cried out again, Crucify him. 14 And Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? But they cried out exceedingly, Crucify him.

It is the fellowship of His sufferings.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

Watch the following excellent video by Neil T. Anderson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

It's a Q&A on Spiritual Warfare, but you can't hear the questions. However, the answers are excellent.

Nell

Bringing this to the top.

Nell

[byHismercy]

Nell, I have heard the idea floating around christianson that when people speak to (or try) the dead, what they end up communicating with are unclean spirits. I think that makes a lot of sense. What do you think?

And back to Minorus' thing with Lees' spirit, I do think there is an element of necromancy there, even though Aron very eloquently explains the foreign guangxi network. Or if it was just an attempt to honor Lee as guangxi nest building.....it seems to me this is straying dangerously close to the edge of what God asks us to avoid....necromancy.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Nell, I have heard the idea floating around christianson that when people speak to (or try) the dead, what they end up communicating with are unclean spirits. I think that makes a lot of sense. What do you think?

BHM--

It does make sense because of verses like Isaiah 8:19. While this verse doesn't specifically say people who attempt to communicate with the dead are communicating with unclean spirits, it does say DON'T DO IT. Why talk at the dead when you can talk to God Himself? I'm looking at the specific language of other verses.

Isaiah 8:19 And when they say to you, “Inquire of the mediums and the necromancers who chirp and mutter,” should not a people inquire of their God? Should they inquire of the dead on behalf of the living?

Good questions: why should we not inquire of God? Why inquire of the dead on behalf of the living? How offensive must it be to the One who died for us that we would seek counsel from the dead?

I did a search on the word "necromancy" and found list after list of 25, 28, etc. verses on what the Bible says about necromancy. There is no shortage of information on the topic and so far, none of the verses say necromancy is OK.

And back to Minorus' thing with Lees' spirit, I do think there is an element of necromancy there, even though Aron very eloquently explains the foreign guangxi network. Or if it was just an attempt to honor Lee as guangxi nest building.....it seems to me this is straying dangerously close to the edge of what God asks us to avoid....necromancy.

As for Minoru, I don't know his heart. I would ask him the same questions Isaiah 8:19 asks. I would also ask, isn't it enough that Jesus lives in us?

When he says "the spirit of Witness Lee lives in me" we have no way of knowing what he actually means...Guanxi network or not. I don't know and I can't know. I do believe there is no context that makes such expression a Christian teaching, it's unscriptural if not heretical. As such, this teaching crosses a line that should never be taught by a Christian to other Christians. God's word commands us not to practice necromancy. Period.

I just checked shepherdingwords.org for any kind of response. Crickets.

Nell

[byHismercy]

Crickets from the Coworkers of North America???? Amazing. What can they say? They cannot defend Minorus' words, they cannot justify his words, and they seem to be unable to retract any blunder or outright heresy they preach. Unless you count all the, ''oh, he didn't really mean what he said'' or the ''yes, he said that, but it doesn't mean what you think it means''..........

And repentance? That would be to lose face. The Coworkers don't do repentance. That I have seen.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Crickets from the Coworkers of North America???? Amazing. What can they say? They cannot defend Minorus' words, they cannot justify his words, and they seem to be unable to retract any blunder or outright heresy they preach. Unless you count all the, ''oh, he didn't really mean what he said'' or the ''yes, he said that, but it doesn't mean what you think it means''..........

And repentance? That would be to lose face. The Coworkers don't do repentance. That I have seen.

Yup.

I remember what it was like for me when the lights started to come on. This may be happening for a lot of the LC faithful.

Nell

[Curious]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Nell, I have heard the idea floating around christianson that when people speak to (or try) the dead, what they end up communicating with are unclean spirits. I think that makes a lot of sense. What do you think?

And back to Minorus' thing with Lees' spirit, I do think there is an element of necromancy there, even though Aron very eloquently explains the foreign guangxi network. Or if it was just an attempt to honor Lee as guangxi nest building.....it seems to me this is straying dangerously close to the edge of what God asks us to avoid....necromancy.

I wish to clarify my own statement in response to aron's assessment of the whole picture of the guanxi network. I would not want anyone to conclude that I don't fully support the idea of ancestor worship being a demonically empowered practise. It's just that it is also a component of the practise of guanxi networking. It helps that end. Within a Taoist household it no doubt is useful in many other ways too, to achieve various ends, therefore it has a strong and familiar hold in the culture and thinking of the persons reliant on it. I just wanted to clarify that. One aspect of the practise does not nullify another, according to my understanding of things.

I have experienced the dark side of the spirit realm through being exposed directly to 2 non-western cultures on a deeply personal level. Otherwise I would never have believed these things, they can sound nutty to the 'Western' mind. I can't deny what I have learned through direct experience.

'Straying dangerously close to the edge' is to me an understatement. MC's words and reference are well OVER the edge. Probably the tip of an iceberg. What is declared aloud is likely just a hint of what is really there. The meaning of the word 'occult' includes 'hidden', 'secret'. What's declared openly will be only very little of what is actually there. Somewhere I read that Nimrod practised spiritism openly but messing around with dark powers became a secretive practise, as a reaction to God dividing up humanity after the tower of Babel.

For example, 'Tantra' is the secretive dark side of Hinduism. Even false religions carry the face of being good, when what is deep inside is demon worship and practise. I have a Sri Lankan friend, (not a Christian, or a believer in the supernatural) who, while visiting Sri Lanka, caught an elephant handler whisper something into his cupped hand when an elephant charged their group. The elephant backed off immediately and my astonished friend asked the handler what he had said or done. He was very unhappy he had been observed and would not engage in conversation about it. To be powerful, it must be hidden. Open referencing is a sign it is safely established in deception and will be only the tip of the iceberg... this is just my opinion based on my own experience and belief on how this stuff works. (I could give many more personal examples of this but chose the one above for my own identity protection only).

My overall advice is, don't trust easily when it comes to this stuff. Don't assume it is less. Be very wary about anything referencing the demonic in a positive way. It is nasty, nasty stuff and the only power in the universe that can deal with it is the blood of Jesus and the power of his name spoken in the mouth of a true believer, and the presence of the Holy Spirit. Stick with that and the darkness flees, every time.

[Nell]

Curious,

I’ll add to your list: “truth”. That is, the truth of God’s word. It’s important to be educated about what goes on in the spirit world. Your post is very helpful. The most important thing, I believe, is to realize this fight has already been won. That fight was won in Gen. 3 when God cursed the serpent and blessed the woman. This victory was consummated on the cross of Jesus. Our job is to simply stand and speak the truth of His victory which was won on the cross. Truth is the only way to expose a lie. (You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.)

I pray that Minoru will wake up!

I can’t say enough about the NTA interview. He shares some of his “truth encounters”. It’s 45 min. and well worth the time. It really puts spiritual warfare in perspective. It’s not about “demons around every corner”. It’s about standing in truth which has already defeated the enemy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FBC4G1hU90

If we “know our enemy”, we are much less likely to give the little creep more credit than he deserves.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

One aspect of the practise does not nullify another, according to my understanding of things..

There's a demonic element, or aspect, that occasionally becomes plain, like Minoru's statement. In 1997 I heard that the "age of spiritual giants is over" and a new era in Christian history had begun. No biblical text was offered. When you see a group of people gather around a dead person's empty chair, as they had when it was occupied, there's a demonic element arguably at work.

Earlier, whilst with FTTA, I tried pointing out the pattern (gospels/Acts/epistles) of attention, care and assistance for the poor, weak, sick, and disenfranchised, which NT experience had fulfillment-of-prophecy overtones from OT. I saw these suggestions actively suppressed by LC "trainers" with no biblical justification: "Don't waste your time." Instead it was, memorise bullet points, go to meetings, recruit "good building material" on the college campus, and get them to recruit others. And, in this we're closely following the apostles? How so?

Unfettered culture can be a vehicle for demonic forces. The LC problem is that: 1) its Chinese founders didn't see the effect of their own culture; and 2) they successfully sold it as "spiritual" to naïve ones who lacked discernment. Poster Curious was fortunate to smell a rat, a non-divine aspect, and move away. Many were not so fortunate.

But all of us wrestle with such forces, and Nell's recommendations are worth considering. (There are resources out there.... some of the FB posters offered links as well) None of us have all the answers, but we all have a piece of the answer, which (to me) is found in the name of Jesus Christ.

[byHismercy]

The victory of Christs' finished work on the cross is ours. The authority placed in Jesus hands on the cross is also ours. We can send the devil running through our faith and the word of our testimony.

Today we were purging my middle kids' room because she is experiencing fear and sleeplessness in her room lately. We love to read so sometimes something (of the enemy) sneaks into our possession through new books or other belongings. This probably happens to a lot of Christians. My daughter and I prayed together last night and today, I am trusting in Lord Jesus to help me see what needs to go.

The same thing is happening in the LC, as I see it. They dropped their guard, something of the ruler of the earth got in.....and they need to pray and purge their 'household'.

Praise Jesus the King of kings that His blood is sufficient for Minoru, for his misstep, his sin! I believe wholly in the efficacy of the blood of Jesus.....everything, every issue repented of will be washed. I hope they are able to turn to the Lord. They desperately need to rebuke the enemy in this situation.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by aron

Poster Curious was fortunate to smell a rat, a non-divine aspect, and move away. Many were not so fortunate.

I want to take this opportunity to say the following. First, it took a surprisingly long time for me to smell that rat. My protection for that long time was (1) keeping healthy boundaries and not diving in quickly, (or at all), (2)observing much but saying little, and (3) following God's guidance during the time I considered joining. I met with them for a couple of years under theses terms.

Next, the only reason I figured it out is that I had already been through a situation in my life which parallels the LC experience but in a completely other context. I had already made my way out of an abusive situation with many of the same characteristics. I owned some books already that I dug up and reread.

My point is...lessons learned cannot be unlearned. Other Christian leaders who have tried to cultivate the praise and dependence of those in their care, have also felt unreassured by me and have kept a distance.

So, to all readers I say this: be encouraged, deeply. We all learn differing lessons, according to the nature of the experiences of our lives....all our days were planned to be, assigned to us, before one of them came into being.(Psalm 139 I think!) And all our lessons learned offer protection going forwards. Not only for ourselves but for others too. these things are what forge wisdom in us, they are tangeable and surprisingly strong within us.

Our life lessons, through our mistakes and those of others, can only be a benefit where we learn from them of course, and only God can give us the insight, strength and humility to do so. Even MC could end up giving God the glory for his mistake if he chose this path through it. (And its likely that he may come off the worse for this if he's the only BB who has made such statements, he may well be scapegoated on by his peers....that's just my opinion again of course.) God is there to turn everything to good for those who love Him. (Romans 28:8) We just need to let Him. Embrace pain and don't try to avoid it. The pain of truth, of being betrayed, robbed, exploited or of realising we've been lead by our own pride and longing to be exalted, to self-elevation, etc. We need to lay it all at the foot of the cross and give it to Jesus for Him to do with it as He determines, for His lordship to be over us in all ways. Then, in time, whole lot becomes as precious jewels whose sparkle cannot be tarnished by anything the devil does. He cannot reach our inheritance in heaven, but his efforts to deceive can backfire on him. Its in our hands, what we chose to do with our hurts and our mistakes. Minoru Chen's as well, if he repents and recants.

I never considered when I went through the things I experienced, that one day I would use that awareness to speak words of hope and encouragement to others. Every reader here has a purpose just as meaningful ahead of them. That's my message for today! Our bad experiences are our biggest opportunity!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

I never considered when I went through the things I experienced, that one day I would use that awareness to speak words of hope and encouragement to others. Every reader here has a purpose just as meaningful ahead of them. That's my message for today! Our bad experiences are our biggest opportunity!

Amen. God is good, and wise, and powerful, and merciful. Everything is ordered by His hand. We praise Him. Our bad experiences are our biggest opportunity. Praise God. Amen.

[Nell]

Where and How it Began: In the Garden
Satan triumphed, but God overruled. The victim becomes the vehicle for the coming of the one who will ultimately destroy the works of the devil, and cleanse the heavens and the earth from every trace of his handiwork. The serpent is cursed, but, in effect, the beguiled victim is blessed.

Through her will come the "Seed" which will triumph over the devil and his seed. Through her will arise a new race. The promised Seed (Gen. 3: 15) will be antagonistic toward the serpent until the end of time because of the enmity implanted by God. Therefore, the story of the ages consists of the record of a war between these two seeds: the Seed of the woman--Christ and His redeemed, and the seed of the devil (See John 8: 44; 1 John 3: 10). This story continues to the end when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. Jesse Penn-Lewis, War on the Saints, pp 4-5

I like the wording of this quote: "the seed will be antagonistic toward the serpent until the end of time because of the enmity implanted by God." The Seed is the aggressor. We are the aggressor toward God's enemy because God declared the war...war on his enemy.

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

We are the aggressor toward God's enemy because God declared the war...war on his enemy.

We can't overstress this. WL said that "the gates of Hades shall not prevail" indicated that Satan would attack the [builded] church. In actuality the gates are defensive. They're to hold in the souls of the dead. Jesus took down the gates, they could not withstand his resurrection. We the believers are witnesses of this. This is our testimony, our warfare (truth), our hope.

There is no secret, sequestered, "high peak" to be "recovered" and merchandised. Jesus' resurrection is our truth. We hold it forth. We believe, and we speak. This is our fight, to hold to the truth, and not be distracted or discouraged.

[Nell]

The duty of this examination of spiritual things is strongly urged by the Apostle Paul, again and again. "He that is spiritual judgeth .. all things" (1 Cor. 2: 15).

The "spiritual" believer is to use his "judgment," ... showing how God Himself honours the intelligent personality of the man He re-creates in Christ, by inviting the "judging" and "examining" of His own workings by His Spirit; so that even "the things of the Spirit" are not to be received as of Him, without being examined, and "spiritually discerned" as of God.

When, therefore, it is said in connection with the supernatural, and abnormal manifestations of the present time, that it is not necessary, nor even according to the will of God, for believers to understand, or explain all the workings of God, it is out of accord with the Apostle's statement that, "he that is spiritual, judgeth all things," and consequently should reject all things which his spiritual judgment is unable to accept, until such a time as he is able to discern with clearness what are the things of God. JPL-War on the Saints, pp. 56-57.

If someone teaches "get out of your mind", or "don't ask questions", or "even when he's wrong, he's right", etc., is your spiritual judgment able to accept that? (Previously I did accept it without question.)

If someone says from the "pulpit" "The spirit of Witness Lee lives in me", does your spiritual judgment accept that?

Of course, this is not to say that these teachings fall into the realm of "supernatural", abnormal manifestations maybe, but definitely something "spiritual judgment is unable to accept".

How to judge all things? "...Reject all things which (your) spiritual judgment is unable to accept, until such a time as (you are) able to discern with clearness what are the things of God."

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Curious

My point is...lessons learned cannot be unlearned. Other Christian leaders who have tried to cultivate the praise and dependence of those in their care, have also felt unreassured by me and have kept a distance.

So, to all readers I say this: be encouraged, deeply. We all learn differing lessons, according to the nature of the experiences of our lives....all our days were planned to be, assigned to us, before one of them came into being.(Psalm 139 I think!) And all our lessons learned offer protection going forwards. Not only for ourselves but for others too. these things are what forge wisdom in us, they are tangible and surprisingly strong within us.

Bringing this forward. When MC said that he believes the spirit of WL is in him, he was probably being influenced by a veritable host of non-biblical forces. (unquestioned concepts, unexamined values, deeply rooted relationships, reflexive responses, etc) all woven into his subconscious and only fitfully surfacing through his conscious activities. Only by examining these forces can we be free.

But once examined and exposed, their hold is broken, and the hard-won insight is, as Curious says, "tangibly and surprisingly strong within us." The things that I see, don't vanish like last night's dream. They continue to guide and protect me going forward.