aron's testimony

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I've basically accepted that he did things that weren't good, and don't feel the need to dive too deeply into them. I personally don't have a lot of influence from Nee these days, so again, I just don't see the need to go that deep into what others report regarding his negative activities.

Thanks for the admission StG! I think most objective observers come away with the strong impression that Watchman Nee's sins against the Name and cause of Christ, and the movement he founded would NOT be best characterized by "things that weren't good." I understand that you don't see the need to expose Nee for the fraud and abuser that he was, but there is much more at stake here than your (or my) sensibilities - There are tens of thousands of young Christians, students and new believers that are being taught (brainwashed) that this man was the "One Minister with the One Ministry for the Age". (Of course they are also being taught that Witness Lee was also deserving of such a lofty title...but that's a story for another thread)

So my friend there is a need - a desperate need - that what Watchman Nee
"said in the dark shall be heard in the light, and what he has whispered in private rooms shall be proclaimed on the housetops."(Luke 12:3) What you name as "negative activities" God names as sin and a grave offense against the sheep he was supposed to be guarding. Let it be known by all that Nee has not been unfairly judged - he has been judged by his own words and actions, and even more so by the fruit that was produced - The Local Church of Witness Lee. May God have mercy.
~

[OBW]

To further underscore UH's statements, Nee is highly revered within many that I would refer to as second-tier leaders. While he may not be referenced much within schools of theology (I really don't know one way or the other on this, but suspect this is the case), I have been involved in at least one adult education class at a Bible Church the did a series on Nee's Sit Walk Stand.

While I had been busy critiquing Lee on this forum and its predecessor, I had never delved into Nee's works and hadn't expected to find much there. While most would have considered Sit Walk Stand as a more pedestrian or "safe' writing, I began to recognize the precursors of Lee's "wait for the anointing" buried in its sequential structure that was stated as a pattern for spiritual growth. Since the class was both discussing Nee's book and going through Ephesians, I simply avoided the conversations on Nee's words and stuck with the scripture.

But at that point, I was ready to dig into Nee and first read a little of his 3-volume tome, The Spiritual Man (I couldn't take too much of it). After that, Authority and Submission / (Spiritual Authority) came up in some discussion and I was onto it. I ultimately concluded that Nee could not be trusted at all. Not saying that nothing he said was correct. But you can say he same about Lee. It is the overt sprinkling of mishandling of the scripture that makes it unacceptable for anyone not fully on guard to it.

Add the mounting evidence that he was sinful in a manner that should have disqualified him as any kind of spiritual leader and his position in the ranks of Christian writers should tank.

The sad thing about this is that Nee begat Lee. And while we don't like to cast aspersions on the others that went out from Nee, and they may not have been a Lee, but they started with Nee and that is now disturbing to me.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thanks for the admission StG!

Thanks brother. Grace to you.

[aron]

Going back to my point about the NT. Suppose in the book of Acts, you saw people selling properties and laying the proceeds at Peter's feet. Then you see where Peter sets up a ski resort on Mount Hermon, run by his children and cousins? What would the gospel look like?

Both Nee and Lee are seen as doing this, setting up family members and close associates with church money. (Lee for sure, Nee set up a factory with his brother and was removed by elders for "business dealings", also laundered assets through 63 church members when Mao took over.)

Another apparent fraud is KP Yohannan, who has a fundraising arm that pulls in the hundreds of millions that is supposed to go to the impoverished and unchurched Asian areas. But his group is laundering money by getting for-profit entities, etc etc...

He started his own church that holds him as "Metropolitan" and he gets full say in what goes. The way to get ahead, and get the perks and the bennies, is to promote him. Whatever KP says is God's current speaking in the church. Sound familiar?

https://www.billionbibles.com/gospel-for-asia.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._P._Yohannan

And guess who KP Yohannan is seen hanging out with on YouTube and discussing finer points of mysticism and spirituality - our old friend Hank Hanegraff! A few hundred thousand*, and Hank will tell the world what a good Christian you are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTV6Q4mFXtc

*Uncertain how much $ changed hands, but certain that some did. We know that "We were wrong" cost Morningstar (Chan family $) about $600K.

Interesting comparison, and they even have the same agenda. I got goosebumps the moment I heard that their target demographic is 18-30 yr olds. Brought up a lot of bad memories and even myself getting targeted when I was in my early twenties.

This is not Christianity or anything to do with it, it’s the pagan religions like Hinduism posing as a Christian. It’s very common in India to have gurus that people follow to their grave, and this men just rebranded himself, possibly because he couldn’t attract big enough following as a enlightened Hindu guru! Using the name of Jesus tends to bring in a bit more of a crowd, and many have done so.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

This is not Christianity or anything to do with it, it’s the pagan religions like Hinduism posing as a Christian. It’s very common in India to have gurus that people follow to their grave, and this men just rebranded himself, possibly because he couldn’t attract big enough following as a enlightened Hindu guru! Using the name of Jesus tends to bring in a bit more of a crowd, and many have done so.

The NT does not give any room for this kind of thinking, it comes from ignorance on the basis of the church members, not to see and reject this kind of thinking, combined with the selfish, egostistic manipulation by would-be gurus, who take advantage of the ignorance of the masses.

Everyone wants to think they are something over and against their fellows. It's a natural human tendency. "And they all quarreled, over which one of them was the greatest." (Luke 22:24-27). Likewise, the commands to humble ourselves and NOT elevate ourselves are myriad in the NT.

Yet the would-be "deputy God" thinks that someone (themselves) must be immune from all this as God's special anointed leader of the flock. Unfortunately there is no basis for this in the NT. Paul said that he was the apostle to the uncircumcised, just as Peter was to the circumcised. There is always plurality and mutuality seen in the flock. Always.

The Deputy God is Jesus Christ, risen from the dead. God's Oracle is Jesus Christ, whose Spirit now dwells in each of us. All of us, like Peter, James, Paul, Mark, and John, have the opportunity to humble ourselves and to try to obey, to follow the Divine Light. There is no special believer with a special gift apart from the mass, and a commensurate special set of rules. Everyone fails.

Jesus alone dwells in spotless light. The rest of us try to approximate the Light. Jesus is the Spiritual Man, not Paul or Watchman Nee or Martin Luther. We should look away to none but Jesus. To me, these are the ABCs of Christianity, of the common faith handed down, the gospel message given to the world. The so-called Guru or Deputy God or Minister of the Age subverts this by seeking a place for themselves.

What's absolutely amazing is seeing someone like Hank Hanegraff promoting this. Walter Martin's mission at CRI was to call out non-Christian concepts making inroads in our society. Hank took over, and completely flipped the script, and instead will sell the seal of approval to anyone with enough cash.

[aron]

Psalm 18:30 says, "The LORD has dealt with me according to my righteousness/according to the cleanness of my hands He has rewarded me." The "me" according to the pattern of NT reception should be Jesus Christ. Psalm 16:10 says, "You (the Father) will not leave my (Christ) soul in the grave/neither will Thou (Father) suffer Thine holy One (Christ Jesus) to see corruption." Psalm 40:8 says, "I (Christ) come to do Thy will, O God (the Father)/behold in the scroll of the book it is written concerning me". The 'me' here is clearly Jesus Christ.

Jesus verified this by saying that all the things written concerning him must be fulfilled. See Luke 21:22, 24:44; Mark 14:43-50 etc. There are probably 40 or 50 references in the NT about how Jesus was the focus of prophecy and its embodiment, fulfillment, in the Gospel record. He was "the Word made flesh". The focus was entirely on the person of Jesus Christ: his experiences, his suffering, his triumphant rise, his promise to return.

Now, what has happened in the meantime, as the centuries passed and the endless ages rolled? Currently, the focus is put on the believer, not on the belief, and on the Christian, not on the Christ. In the Recovery we were told that there was one word in the dictionary: "Christ"... actually, that's completely false: the one word is in the Recovery dictionary is "me". Instead of "no longer I but Christ" it is "no longer Christ but I". This unrelenting and all-consuming focus of the subjective experience of the believer has made Christ a cipher, to be made into whatever the subjective self needs at any point.

For verification, look at the hymns - who's the subject, the object and focus of attention? The believer and his/her experience. "What can was away my (the believer) sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus". Or, "And can it be that I (the believer) should gain an interest in my Saviour's blood? Died he (Christ) for me (Christian) - who caused his pain...etc." Or, "So subjective is my Christ in me (the redeemed sinner)/real in me (sinner) and rich and sweet/all my (redeemed sinner) needs he (Christ) meets" It's all about the sinner's experience, satisfaction, and joy. But that subjectivity is quicksand!

The unrelenting focus is on the sinner: redeemed, reborn, transformed and transfigured. The doorway to deception is cast wide open. Instead of focusing on the One with clean hands - Jesus.

The Lord's Recovery is not unique in this path of error, but they do it to a greater degree, with more horrific results, than most Protestant spinoffs. It's probably not coincidental that all these frauds that I've been writing of originated from the same tradition (I know the Bible Answer Man is Greek Orthodox now, but I doubt that he'd have gotten as much traction there, to start). The Protestant Revelator gets some great immutable Truth, but that's the backdoor for the Revelator to become the Seer of the Divine Mystery for the Present Age, yada yada. A circle of deception and self-deception, drawing in trusting and hopeful rubes, those well-meaning seekers who will take the claims on face value because it makes them feel good. As long as you have some "enjoyment" engendered by repetitive shouting, it must be true... right?