Prophecy - The End Times

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Didn’t Jesus’s death and resurrection get rid of the need to attend a physical temple?

For the church of God, yes!
For the Israel of God, no!

Daniel, Matthew, and 2 Thessalonians all speak of the Prince, the Beast, the Man of Sin, aka the Antichrist desecrating the Temple, the abomination of desolation.

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

Now switching to serious mode...

Take a look at Young's Literal Translation and then I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’

Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Da 9:27)

1. Question #1 - most translations say "make a covenant", but the literal text is "strengthened a covenant". It could be a pre-existing agreement that is "strengthened", not made. Do you think it is "make a covenant" or "strengthened a covenant"?

2. Question #2 - Is it an interpretive jump to go from "a covenant with many" to a covenant with Israel? I think it is. Who are "the many"? I can't find evidence that it is solely Israel.

3. Question #3 - How do you reconcile "by the wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of a physical temple of God? What feature of the Temple of God can be thought of as a "wing of abominations". If you cannot resolve the "wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of the Temple of God then you have a interpretive problem here. There are many physical pictures in the Old Testament that resolve to spiritual realities in the New Testament Age. We know that Jesus made a temple not made with human hands when he resurrected. So, there is a new Temple of God in the New Testament age. Could Daniel's references here be to the new Temple of God in the New Testament age?

I cannot state anything definitive here on this 3rd question and associated comments. I just have questions and I keep them before the Lord asking for insight when and if the time is ever appropriate.

Lastly, there is a lot of understanding of End Times Prophecy that is a layer cake of assumptions. Base assumptions layered with additional assumptions then topped with some nice icing. As time has gone on, I've been breaking down the layers and finding that a decent percentage of the common understanding of End Times Prophecy is based on POTENTIALLY false assumptions. My questions about Daniel 9:27 give you a glimpse of a few of these assumptions.

Matt

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Now switching to serious mode...

Take a look at Young's Literal Translation and then I have a few questions.

Daniel 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many—one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.’

Young, R. (1997). Young’s Literal Translation (Da 9:27)

1. Question #1 - most translations say "make a covenant", but the literal text is "strengthened a covenant". It could be a pre-existing agreement that is "strengthened", not made. Do you think it is "make a covenant" or "strengthened a covenant"?

2. Question #2 - Is it an interpretive jump to go from "a covenant with many" to a covenant with Israel? I think it is. Who are "the many"? I can't find evidence that it is solely Israel.

3. Question #3 - How do you reconcile "by the wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of a physical temple of God? What feature of the Temple of God can be thought of as a "wing of abominations". If you cannot resolve the "wing of abominations" to a physical aspect of the Temple of God then you have a interpretive problem here. There are many physical pictures in the Old Testament that resolve to spiritual realities in the New Testament Age. We know that Jesus made a temple not made with human hands when he resurrected. So, there is a new Temple of God in the New Testament age. Could Daniel's references here be to the new Temple of God in the New Testament age?

YLT can help at times, but language idioms get lost. Let me paraphrase Proverbs, "In a multitude of translations, there is wisdom." E.g. "causes present to cease," makes no sense. Sounds like the Grinch who stole Christmas. The "present" here are offerings in the Temple.

Q1. "Make a covenant, strengthen a covenant, confirm a covenant" all are the same, though I put less credibility on YLT than the other translations for the above reasoning. The impact of this covenant will be to enable Israel to safely rebuilt their Temple. Obviously no temple exists in Jerusalem presently, so one must be built. The "covenant" maker here must be one who has great power, i.e. the "Beast" of Revelation, the "Man of Sin" of 2 Thessalonians, the "He" of Daniel 9, or the un-named in Matthew 24.

Q2. The "many" is Israel, perhaps over the objections of some in Israel. Daniel chapters 8-12 are written in Hebrew to Israel, in contrast to Daniel 2.4 thru chap 7 which are written in Aramaic to the Babylonians. Daniel 9.27 describes the final 70th week "decreed for your people and your holy city." (9.24) The context here makes all the difference in understanding this verse. Verse 9.27 cannot be taken out of context.

The "middle of the seven" is crucial when compared with Revelation. Half a week of 7 years is 3 1/2 years, "42 months, a time and times and half a time, 1260 days" all of which are mentioned there. That something monumental happens in the "middle of this week" is mentioned often.

Jesus warned us that false Christs will come. Most in Israel will consider the Antichrist Beast to be their long-awaited Messiah, and will be completely deceived by him. In his first few years of ruling, he will appear as god on earth, and all will marvel. Some, however, will voice their objections and probably be banished as conspiracy theorists propagating foreign intelligence, or some such.

Q3. I interpret Daniel 9.27 "abomination and desolation" by Jesus in Matt 24.15 and Paul in 2 Ths 2.4. Jesus said you will "see" this event, and I suspect this will be well-publicized on all the 24 hr cable news stations. This spectacular event will follow the Beast's miraculous recovery from what is probably an assassination attempt. Perhaps he will die, and be brought back to life. Paul says, "he seats himself in the Temple, proclaiming himself as god."

Your reference to the church age "Temple" of God is interesting, and not without consideration based on 2 Ths 2. The Thessalonians asked Paul concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and he spoke of two distinct events which must precede His coming. The "apostasy" must come first, and the man of lawlessness must be revealed. This evil man will be revealed when he enters the Temple and "opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or an object of worship."

The "apostasy" must also include the many in the church of God. In the only other NT mention of this word, it is used to condemn Paul he departed from his Jewish religion. (Acts 21.21) Ralph Earle Word Meanings says this means "to forsake, a defection or a revolt. The word implies that the opposition contemplated by Paul springs up from within and not from without." Reminds me of Paul's word "all in Asia have deserted me."


Trying times indeed. What sayeth you?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Lastly, there is a lot of understanding of End Times Prophecy that is a layer cake of assumptions. Base assumptions layered with additional assumptions then topped with some nice icing. As time has gone on, I've been breaking down the layers and finding that a decent percentage of the common understanding of End Times Prophecy is based on POTENTIALLY false assumptions.

Matt, I wholeheartedly agree with this old post. And this weighs on my heart.

A year ago we joined Christians from numerous churches at the football stadium. So much talk about REVIVAL! "Revival is coming, we can all feel it." The Pastor took time beforehand to provide the scriptural basis. He used a couple OT verses to support the belief that a "great revival would soon sweep over the land."

Huh? If true, would not the NT clearly state such a prophecy? But what does the scripture say? Apostle Paul clearly states that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE APOSTASY must come. (2 Thess 2.3) The words in Greek are very specific. Not just "a falling away," like a backsliding, but "the apostasy," as a determinable phenomena.

So I examined this word apostasia in all my Bible study aids:

• The word occurs only here and Acts 21.21 where Paul was accused of being "apostate from Moses"
• The word implies that the opposition contemplated by Paul springs up from within the church rather than from without
• It must arise from the Jews or apostate Christians, either of whom might be said to fall away from God
• Politically this word would be used of a "rebel," but religiously it is used only of an "apostate"
• Signifies not the act, but the actual state of apostasy
• Apostasy involves capitulation to heretical beliefs as an eschatological phenomenon; capitulation is a surrender under certain terms or conditions
• Signifies apostasy from the faith
• Apostasy implies a falling away from a position that can be fallen from; not a falling into sin, from which grace can recover, but a relinquishing of faith

All my study was confirmed by Paul's precise prophetic word from God:

"But the Spirit expressly says that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith, they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons. - I Tim 4.1"

Needless to say, this study has unsettled me to this day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

A year ago we joined Christians from numerous churches at the football stadium. So much talk about REVIVAL! "Revival is coming, we can all feel it." The Pastor took time beforehand to provide the scriptural basis. He used a couple OT verses to support the belief that a "great revival would soon sweep over the land."

Huh? If true, would not the NT clearly state such a prophecy? But what does the scripture say? Apostle Paul clearly states that before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, THE APOSTASY must come. (2 Thess 2.3) The words in Greek are very specific. Not just "a falling away," like a backsliding, but "the apostasy," as a determinable phenomena.

Recently I posted how The Apostasy must come (2 Thess. 2.3) before the coming of our Lord Jesus. What would cause so many Christians to abandon the faith they once held dearly? The recent message by Nigel Tomes, "The Sifting: Difficult Words & Dropout Disciples" based on John 6, asked the same question. In the section, "Why do Disciples Depart & Christians De-convert?" Nigel made numerous explanations which are definitely valid considerations for The Apostasy which may soon confront all of us.

• Unresolved doubts about the Bible
• Unanswered questions about the Bible
• Unanswered prayer
• Unfulfilled promises

I believe that it behooves us to prepare for such a coming trial lest we be caught unprepared and deceived. In the course of my travels post-LC, I have spoken many truths from the Bible which have caused push back and even expulsion from my beloved brothers and sisters. Two common eschatological themes which seem to permeate contemporary Christians assemblies are:

• A great Revival is coming soon. Who has not sung Robin Mark's "Revival"?
• All Christians will be Raptured Pre-Trib.

I have personally and publicly been told, "I don't plan to be here during the Tribulation. The Book of Revelation after ch 3 is not for us. No need to worry, we will all be taken to heaven. etc."

Many Christians have concerns about this, yet are stifled by their leaders. What if these promises are not fulfilled. Are not the children of God being set up for The Apostasy, a tragedy indeed? Remember in the Gospel of John chapter 6 the Lord started out with 5,000 followers and ended with probably about Twelve, one of whom was a devil.

[Nell]

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostacy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

Jan Markell: I’m just so stunned. I never thought I would see this in my lifetime. That the greatest news in the Bible is now marginalized jeopardized and is now coming under great criticism and skepticism. Then, you’ll talk to a pastor and he’ll say “well, you know what, I don’t want to be identified with the fringe.” There is a fringe. We don’t know the day or the hour and we don’t. Nobody’s got any special insight. Apparently only God the Father knows.

Amir Tsarfaty: Look. When you live in this world and suddenly someone tells you you’re about to be taken, physically, out of this world, then, knowing the date is like hitting the jackpot. However, it saddens me that, even though Jesus himself said, “no one knows the day and the hour”, why do we think that we need to know? It’s sends a clear message that we’re not supposed to deal with the actual date. We’re supposed to deal with the preparation for that date.

Kevin: In addition, with spreading misconceptions about Biblical prophecy, more church-going Christians, with each passing year, no longer want to hear about these so-called “fringe topics”. Most churches have clearly recognized this trend.

43:10
Jan Markell: If you ask a pastor, he will tell you—flat out—you know what? “The world is coming to an end” is not going to grow my church. The fact that even Jesus is coming back is not going to (grow my church.)

J. D. Farag: That is the number one reason, actually. And it’s really because pastors are, themselves, ignorant concerning Bible prophecy. They are also fearful. They are fearful that if they start teaching Bible prophecy—really they’re teaching the Bible—so how can you not teach the Bible, whole counsel of God, without also teaching prophecy by default? They’re (pastors) are fearful that it’s going to be too controversial.

Amir Tsarfaty: Christians always want to be accepted by the world. They are always on the run to embrace and adopt worldly views in order for people to like them. You sugarcoat everything. You become a motivational speaker rather than a pastor. Because, if you come to a non-believer and you pull out this rapture card, he’s going to run away from you. He’s going to think you’re crazy."

Watching the movie, Before the Wrath, will put this in context for you.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,
You are not wrong. Here are a few quotes regarding the apostasy. These speakers believe that the apostasy, the great falling away, is already underway. Here they make their case.
Nell

Before the Wrath
40:34
"Kevin: This brings us to a topic that is fiercely debated today. Since the origins of Christ’s message left with the Galileans has faded into history, Jesus’ statement regarding not knowing the day or the hour of his return has sparked heated debate and growing misconceptions.

Jack Hibbs: And the church has suffered from this. There are those who want to set dates. And yet the Bible teaches both from Jesus himself and from the apostles that no man knows the day or the hour.

J. D. Farag: It is my belief that these date setters, so called, have irreversibly damaged Bible prophesy.

Amir Tsarfaty: I grieve about the obsession about “when will it happen” as far as day and hour. When you start setting days and then it doesn’t happen, then you have millions or hundreds of thousands of disappointed people that, there are good chances that they will walk away from that faith because it wasn’t proved to be right.

Kevin: And the result is that Bible prophecy is systematically erased from Christianity all over the world.

I agree, Nell. Recently my wife was told by one Pastor, "we don't teach the book of Revelations because it's just too controversial."

Date-setting during this time is totally futile and distracting. Doing this should totally disqualify the ministry of these ones. The time will come, however, during Daniel's 70th week of years, that we will be able to know the month and the year of His Advent, though not the day or the hour. Both Daniel and Revelation continually mention the period of time of the last half of the week (Dan 9.27), a time, times, half a time (Rev 12.14; Dan 7.25, 12.7), 42 months (Rev 11.2; 13.15), and 1260 days (Rev 11.3; 12.6)

Until the great revelation of the Man of Lawlessness (2 Thess 2.3) takes place, every time prediction / prophecy is just a lie. After this time, it is God's mercy to inform us that He will limit the wrath, the persecution, and the judgments lest all mankind is destroyed. (Matt 24.22)

To make things clear here, the above only refers to the physical return of Jesus Christ to the earth. (Acts 1.11) This in no way applies to the many secret raptures spoken of throughout the Bible.

[OBW]

Question: Has there not been apostasy since the very writings that now comprise the NT?

I am not dismissing anything current, but didn't the theologians of prior centuries also see evidence that suggested the time was near?

What does deciding that we really do have the general time of the end times do for us? As the disciples of Christ, should we be living differently now than we should have been if we lived 1,500 years ago? Is the very revelation of anything about the ends times for the benefit of figuring it out, or to remind us that given the grand metaphorical narrative supplied, along with the extraordinary power of God to cause even not being as being, that we should always expect it could be today even if it does not happen within this third millennium?

It seems that the history of those who start to "figure things out" is not really so grand.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For the church of God, yes!
For the Israel of God, no!

Daniel, Matthew, and 2 Thessalonians all speak of the Prince, the Beast, the Man of Sin, aka the Antichrist desecrating the Temple, the abomination of desolation.

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

Is the temple that Paul mentions in his letter to a Church a physical temple?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is the temple that Paul mentions in his letter to a Church a physical temple?

Which verse? Which church?

Paul mentions the "temple" in numerous places. Context determines what he is referring to.

2 Thessalonians 2.4 is indeed a physical temple in Jerusalem

I Corinthians 6.19 says our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 2.21 says the entire church is growing into a holy temple in the Lord

I Corinthians 8.10 indicates that the heathens have idol temples

Witness Lee and his disciples sit in the “temple” (I.e church) today and claim to be gods, where does that put them in the big picture of your theology?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Witness Lee and his disciples sit in the “temple” (I.e church) today and claim to be gods, where does that put them in the big picture of your theology?

Just plain old heretics.

Nell

Since the temple in the Old Testament (old covenant) signified two things:

1) God’s dwelling place on earth.
2) Separation between God and man, due to the veil and sacrificial system.

Since under the new covenant, God is no longer dwells on earth in temples, such as a man built buildings, and there is no longer the separation between God and man through the work of the cross and the resurrection, can you please tell me why would a new manmade temple needs to be built?

Thank you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Since the temple in the Old Testament (old covenant) signified two things:

1) God’s dwelling place on earth.
2) Separation between God and man, due to the veil and sacrificial system.

Since under the new covenant, God is no longer dwells on earth in temples, such as a man built buildings, and there is no longer the separation between God and man through the work of the cross and the resurrection, can you please tell me why would a new manmade temple needs to be built?

Thank you.

Currently, the nation of Israel is under the Old Covenant. Had they believed and received Jesus, then there would be no need for a physical Temple, as you said. But they have rejected their true Messiah, and are still waiting for Him. Presently all the materials for this new Temple are stored and ready for immediate construction. Their covenant with God and their Law requires a Temple to be built, and they have been waiting to rebuild their Temple since it was destroyed.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Which verse?

The verses you cited here:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul clearly told the disciples that our Lord Jesus Christ cannot return unto this son of perdition firstly is revealed as he seats himself in the Temple of God proclaiming himself to be God. (2 Ths 2.1-5)

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

Originally Posted by Ohio

Which church?

The Thessalonian church whom the letters were written to. You’re saying that when Paul references the Temple of God in a letter to Christians, he’s referring to a physical temple, is that a correct understanding of what you’re saying?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

The verses you cited here:

2 Thessalonians 2:1-5

The Thessalonian church whom the letters were written to. You’re saying that when Paul references the Temple of God in a letter to Christians, he’s referring to a physical temple, is that a correct understanding of what you’re saying?

Yes, based on context, and confirmed by Daniel’s and Jesus’ prophecies.

I can see no reason otherwise to interpret this reference to the Temple in the above verse as anything other than a literal reading of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yes, based on context, and confirmed by Daniel’s and Jesus’ prophecies.

I can see no reason otherwise to interpret this reference to the Temple in the above verse as anything other than a literal reading of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.

Thank you for your response.