Who make up the "Nations" in the New Creation?

[Timotheist]

[reposted from another thread. It did not draw any comments the first time, so I am giving you another chance to opine.

I did not cite all of the scriptures justifying this list. But I swear I did not make this stuff up ]

Here is my take on who will make up the Nations in the New Creation:

1) None of the "goats" in Matt 25. they are the living unbelievers who survive until the second coming, and are immediately tossed into the LOF before the Millennial kingdom
2) The "sheep" in Matt 25, described as you did here. They will be allowed entrance into the Son's kingdom, to be ruled and reigned over by the kings and priests for 1000 years. I would venture to suggest that not ALL of these sheep will survive a second judgement. 1000 years is a long time, and they must be actively obedient to these leaders (and to Christ). Some, I fear, will resist and join Satan in the final rebellion. These are among the "tares" mentioned in that other parable.
3) Unbelieving Israelites (like the rich man in Luke). They will be resurrected and allowed a second chance during the Son's kingdom. For some of them their reward, like the obedient sheep, will be eternal life (also contingent upon continued obedience).
4) Believers who were judged at the Son's judgement seat and cast into Outer Darkness. They are described in the parable of the sower as those who initially received the Word of God but walked away. They will be saved through fire, but are not holy enough to dwell in the NJ.
5) And finally, a portion of the unbelievers who died and are not resurrected until the Great White Throne judgement. I believe this covers a segment of the population that never heard the gospel, but are saved nonetheless. They are given eternal life in a similar manner as the gentile sheep of Matt 25.

The parable of the Sower describes four different types of people, and the New Creation describes four outcomes:

1) The unholy. Those who have no eternal life and are tossed into the LOF.
2) The holy (Called). Not holy enough to draw close to the Throne, and will not get the TOL's fruit. But they will continue in eternal life via the water and the leaves distributed from the Throne. These are the "Nations".
3) The holier (Chosen). Primarily the Royal Priesthood who rule over the Nations. Out of the many who are "Called" these are the few "Chosen".
4) The holiest (Faithful). The Bride of the Lamb. Described as the "sons of Zadok" in Ezekiel. They are distinguished among the "Chosen" Levites as being also "Faithful".

What a load of eisegesis!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What a load of eisegesis!

Then please do the work to provide something better.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What a load of eisegesis!

Don't know if this was a tease or a serious comment.

The term "eisegesis" was thrown out there in the other thread to contrast alleged interpretation of parables with "direct statements".

Let me just say this about the passages mentioned here:

1) The judgement of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is NOT a parable. It is stated with clarity that the judgement of the living Gentiles is coming, and that among them are those whose deeds earn them entrance into the kingdom.

2) The account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke is NOT a parable, but is described as an actual event. Both men are Jews, but one is rewarded and the other is punished.

3) The parable of the Sower is a parable, but it is one of the few that comes with a clear interpretation.

4) Similarly, the parable of the wheat and the tares is followed by a clear interpretation.

No eisegesis going on here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Don't know if this was a tease or a serious comment.

The term "eisegesis" was thrown out there in the other thread to contrast alleged interpretation of parables with "direct statements".

Let me just say this about the passages mentioned here:

1) The judgement of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is NOT a parable. It is stated with clarity that the judgement of the living Gentiles is coming, and that among them are those whose deeds earn them entrance into the kingdom.

The message of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is troubling, and appears to indicate a monumental change in God's plan of salvation. This verse indicates that good works, specifically those caring for the suffering of God's children, can save us. Save us from God's judgment.

To most casual Protestant readers of the Bible this appears heretical, and must be "interpreted" according to the standard of faith alone in Christ alone. But is it really? Or is this new standard of salvation applicable during the end times?

Some Bible scholars have suggested that the gospel of grace thru faith has an expiration date, referred to in the Bible as the "fullness of the Gentiles comes in." (Rom 11) At this point God's plan once again focuses primarily on Israel. I think this will correspond to the rebuilding of the Temple, and the restoration of sacrifices, the final "week" prophesied in Daniel.

I think this new "message" of salvation is seen in Rev 14. An angel proclaims an "eternal gospel" to every nation to "Fear God." Fearing God is more related to our actions during the tribulation than to our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in contrast to John 3.16, which clearly equates our faith to eternal life.

Receiving eternal life, i.e. being born again, or being born of the Spirit to become a child of God and an heir of God, differs from merely living forever, which apparently the good sheep, or the "nations" will do.


Will this mean that regeneration by the Spirit also has an expiration date?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The message of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is troubling, and appears to indicate a monumental change in God's plan of salvation. This verse indicates that good works, specifically those caring for the suffering of God's children, can save us. Save us from God's judgment.

Yes, it does seem there is a change of age at the end of times. I call it the "age of judgment." I heard a pastor say that at the end of the age there is going to be unprecedented preaching of the gospel and huge number of people saved. Well, there is not even one account of a person in all of Revelation that is saved and baptized, or born again, or saved by faith, etc. Zero. Compare that with the rest of the New Testament, with Acts, with the Gospels. So yes, I see that during the last 3.5 years, even maybe the entire last 7 years, the age changes and salvation does not include regeneration and receiving Christ into you by faith. It is more of a works salvation based on fearing God, glorifying Him, worshipping Him, not receiving the mark of the Beast or worshipping the Beast, helping Jews and Christians (that have not been raptured yet).

If the two witnesses appear on the scene at the start of the last 7 years, (I think they do), it makes sense to have the change of age then. When Moses came with the Law, it changed the age. When Christ came with grace, it changed the age. So it follows that when the two witnesses come (I believe they are Moses and Elijah), they will change the age with their preaching. Then they are killed at the mid-point when the Beast comes up from the Abyss and overpowers them. So then the 3 angels start their preaching with the: eternal gospel, judgement on Babylon and warnings about following the Beast.

Another interesting point that might fit in is that Paul in 2 Thess. 2:7 talks about when "He that restrains is taken away" the lawless one (Antichrist) will be revealed. Many suggest that He who restrains is the Holy Spirit. So if the Holy Spirit is "taken away" it might partly explain why people are no longer born again with the Spirit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, it does seem there is a change of age at the end of times. I call it the "age of judgment." I heard a pastor say that at the end of the age there is going to be unprecedented preaching of the gospel and huge number of people saved. Well, there is not even one account of a person in all of Revelation that is saved and baptized, or born again, or saved by faith, etc. Zero. Compare that with the rest of the New Testament, with Acts, with the Gospels. So yes, I see that during the last 3.5 years, even maybe the entire last 7 years, the age changes and salvation does not include regeneration and receiving Christ into you by faith. It is more of a works salvation based on fearing God, glorifying Him, worshipping Him, not receiving the mark of the Beast or worshipping the Beast, helping Jews and Christians (that have not been raptured yet).

If the two witnesses appear on the scene at the start of the last 7 years, (I think they do), it makes sense to have the change of age then. When Moses came with the Law, it changed the age. When Christ came with grace, it changed the age. So it follows that when the two witnesses come (I believe they are Moses and Elijah), they will change the age with their preaching. Then they are killed at the mid-point when the Beast comes up from the Abyss and overpowers them. So then the 3 angels start their preaching with the: eternal gospel, judgement on Babylon and warnings about following the Beast.

Another interesting point that might fit in is that Paul in 2 Thess. 2:7 talks about when "He that restrains is taken away" the lawless one (Antichrist) will be revealed. Many suggest that He who restrains is the Holy Spirit. So if the Holy Spirit is "taken away" it might partly explain why people are no longer born again with the Spirit.

Your first point about no record of salvation during the tribulation and the mention of “apostasy” in 2 Thess 2 has caused me to reconsider what I hear from nearly every minister today. They regularly prophesy of the coming great revival. They pray and sing about it. They scramble to extract verse remnants from the OT about it. It does sound appealing, no doubt, and even I have prayed and believed a great revival is coming. Couple weeks ago we gathered at the stadium downtown with dozens of churches praying for this revival.

But where is the justification from the New Testament? I can’t find it. Instead I read about “enduring” hardship to the end. I read about martyrdoms. I read about the love of many “growing cold.” I read about false teachers, false prophets, and false Christ’s. I see strong warnings not to be deceived. I can’t find anything that remotely indicates revival excitement is coming like everyone is talking about.

Can someone help me out here?

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Receiving eternal life, i.e. being born again, or being born of the Spirit to become a child of God and an heir of God, differs from merely living forever, which apparently the good sheep, or the "nations" will do.


Will this mean that regeneration by the Spirit also has an expiration date?

Great discussion... thanks to both you and Raptor.

We have been trained to equate eternal life with "being born of the Spirit", and that is what is required to be saved in this age.

And I used to think like both of you that the "rules will change" during the Tribulation.

Now I am not so sure.

Consider the two thieves on the cross... Is one "saved" and the other not? If so, how was he saved? Did the Spirit come down and enter him just before he died? Apparently not. So he must be saved, but not in the manner that we think of today.

Can there not be two kinds of salvation? One based primarily on deeds and the other on hearing the Word and receiving the Spirit? I think the answer is 'yes', but the quality of life will be different: as in living as part of the Nations vs living in the NJ in the eternal kingdom.

I have often wanted to question Paul on exactly what he meant when he said:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I don't see any mention of the word "Spirit" here... but I do see a lot about moral character (works), and the judgement thereof.

So that is why I think that the dead Gentiles will be raised and given a similar offer of eternal life at the GWT that the living Gentiles do after the Tribulation.

So will the rules change, or did we just not understand the rules?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

We have been trained to equate eternal life with "being born of the Spirit", and that is what is required to be saved in this age.

Eternal life, the life of God Himself who is able to birth us as newborn babes, to regenerate us, is not the same as living forever. Eternal life is the quality of that life. That's why as believers we believe that, though we may die, we will be resurrected unto a living hope. Most Christians would accept this as truth.

The nations, on the other hand, appear to enter into a kingdom "prepared from the foundation of the world." This kingdom begins with the return of the Son of Man in His glory.

What is strange is that Jesus called them "the righteous" in Matt 25.37. Apparently they became righteous, not by faith in His sacrifice for sins, but by good works, by fearing God. Yet they are not considered children of God, but "the nations." I assume they are the nations around the New Jerusalem who are healed by the leaves of the tree of life.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Consider the two thieves on the cross... Is one "saved" and the other not? If so, how was he saved? Did the Spirit come down and enter him just before he died? Apparently not. So he must be saved, but not in the manner that we think of today.

I have always wondered about this too. I consider the "thief" to be similar to all the OT believers. They believed looking forward to the coming Messiah, who would take away their sins. When these ones die, they are in the pleasant part of hades called paradise. Luke 16 discusses these two sections.

Imagine these two thieves, crucified on either side of Jesus, ending up on either side of that great chasm, just like Lazarus and the rich man, because of the last minute faith by the one thief. What discussions they must have had! Perhaps these two thieves were childhood friends who grew up together, yet ended up on the wrong side of the Roman law, and now separated by sin and faith.

Now the next question for me is whether these OT believers in the long-promised Messiah also become regenerated by the Spirit of God as we do after Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus obviously went to paradise and announced the Gospel to all of them. The long awaited Messiah had just showed up with "thief" the latest "arrival" in paradise. When Jesus resurrected from them in paradise, that is from the dead, did they also receive the Spirit? Did they also get taken to heaven? (Eph 4.8-10)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your first point about no record of salvation during the tribulation and the mention of “apostasy” in 2 Thess 2 has caused me to reconsider what I hear from nearly every minister today.

These two verses really exemplify the idea of an end of times change of age:

Age of Grace
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those persecuting you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:44.

Age of Judgement
If anyone wants to harm them (the two witnesses), fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. Revelation 11:4.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

These two verses really exemplify the idea of an end of times change of age:

Age of Grace
But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those persecuting you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:44.

Age of Judgement
If anyone wants to harm them (the two witnesses), fire proceeds from their mouths and devours their enemies. In this way, anyone who wants to harm them must be killed. Revelation 11:4.

I understand the “change of age,” but wouldn’t the emphasis be on Israel rather than Judgment? From the context in Rev 11, it seems like the Two Witnesses are given to protect the Temple. I think that the dramatic events surrounding these witnesses - killed by the Beast who radically changes, lying in the street where Jesus died, resurrected and ascended after 3 days, etc. - will persuade Israel that they have welcomed the wrong Messiah.

This will be during the 70th week spoken of by Gabriel to Daniel “decreed for your people and your holy city to stop their transgression, to put an end to sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.” - Daniel 9.24

The Age of Grace (time of the Gentiles) actually began when the Veil of the Temple was rent by God from top to bottom as Jesus breathed His last, (Mark 15.37) and ends with Israel making atonement for their iniquity in the rebuilt Temple.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I understand the “change of age,” but wouldn’t the emphasis be on Israel rather than Judgment?

The final "age of judement" will be for Israel, Christians and the Nations. Rev. 14:7 "...proclaim to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation and tribe and tongue and people, "Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come."

The way I see it is: God had a plan for all mankind, but was ultimately rejected, so He called a chosen people, Israel, who also ultimately rejected Him. Having accomplished a perfect redemption He turned to the gentiles and in the age of grace you have basically either believers or unbelievers (whether Jews or Nations). At the end of the age the Lord will come in to deal with the three categories of people: Israel. christians and the nations.

Israel
Israel will go through the Great Tribulation as a judgement for their unbelief and rejection of the Messiah. The Jews will be protected (Rev. 7,9) but still suffer persecution and great distress.They will have the opportunity to witness and die for the Lord. They will be rescued at the appearing of the Lord. They will ultimately go through a final judgment (Matthew 19:28) and be completely restored as God´s chosen nation with all the promised blessings.

Christians
Christians will also gor through the Lord´s judgement at the end of the age: on the positive side, all the victorious believers (dead or alive) that were ready will be recompensed with the best resurrection and rapture before the GT (Rev. 12, 14). Those living that remain will have to go through the GT to get ready. They will be protected and nourished (Rev. 12) but still suffer persecution and great distress. They will have the opportunity to witness and die for the Lord. Maybe some will also become ready during the GT and be raptured before the end (Rev. 7:14). At the end of the GT all remaining believers will be raptured with all the rest of the resurrected dead believers into the cloud. They will ultimately go through a final judgment, the judgement seat of Christ.

Nations
The Nations will undergo God´s judgment on the world, ungodliness and ubelief, the kingdom of Antichrist, the great Babylon, etc. They will suffer great terror and distress but will have the opportunity to be spared if they obey the eternal gospel and/or help Jews and Christians. They will ultimately go through a final judement: the sheep and goats. All the rest of the dead Nations will go through a final judgment, the great white throne.

(* details missing)

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Nations
The Nations will undergo God´s judgment on the world, ungodliness and ubelief, the kingdom of Antichrist, the great Babylon, etc. They will suffer great terror and distress but will have the opportunity to be spared if they obey the eternal gospel and/or help Jews and Christians. They will ultimately go through a final judement: the sheep and goats. All the rest of the dead Nations will go through a final judgment, the great white throne.

And what is your take on the judgement of the dead Nations at the GWT?

Will none survive, or will there be "sheep" who survive that judgement?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

And what is your take on the judgement of the dead Nations at the GWT? Will none survive, or will there be "sheep" who survive that judgement?

Looks like there will be some at the GWT that will be saved. According to Rev. 20:11-15 the dead are before the throne where books are opened and they are judged according to their works as recorded in the books. But also, the book of life is opened and anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire. So there is 1). the absolute judgement based on the book of life determining those who are saved and those who are cast into the lake of fire. 2). a relative judgment based on works recorded in the opened books. How does it all work out? IDK, maybe those who are in the book of life are saved but their deeds are also evaluated and those cast into LoF are lost and their deeds also evaluated.

Death will still exist during the Millenium, so if the sheep of the Nations still die during the Millenium it makes sense they are some of those at the GWT who are found in the book of life and saved.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Looks like there will be some at the GWT that will be saved. According to Rev. 20:11-15 the dead are before the throne where books are opened and they are judged according to their works as recorded in the books. But also, the book of life is opened and anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire. So there is 1). the absolute judgement based on the book of life determining those who are saved and those who are cast into the lake of fire. 2). a relative judgment based on works recorded in the opened books. How does it all work out? IDK, maybe those who are in the book of life are saved but their deeds are also evaluated and those cast into LoF are lost and their deeds also evaluated.

Death will still exist during the Millenium, so if the sheep of the Nations still die during the Millenium it makes sense they are some of those at the GWT who are found in the book of life and saved.

This is a recent thought of mine, but I am beginning to think there will be a lot among the nations that will be granted eternal life based upon their works, having never heard the OT law or the NT gospel.

God’s promise to Abraham was that the gentile nations would be blessed through him and his seed.
In the OT, these nations were born at the judgement at Babel.

And we will still have Nations in the New Creation.

My working hypothesis is that what we call the “eternal gospel” is just that: eternal. Those who (mostly) practice the Law without hearing the Law will be saved.

Not in the same way that we as believers in the NT gospel are saved. We have the opportunity to become priests and kings, and the most holy (sanctified) of us will be married to the Lamb. These opportunities are not available to unbelieving members of the nations, but their names will nonetheless be in the BOL, having been “blessed by the Father”, as in Matt 25, according to the promise made to Abraham.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

This is a recent thought of mine, but I am beginning to think there will be a lot among the nations that will be granted eternal life based upon their works, having never heard the OT law or the NT gospel.

My thought is similar. If indeed the salvation that is available thru the Eternal Gospel changes during the Great Tribulation, there may be many of the nations.

Revelation gives us some descriptions. An angel in the heavens announces this gospel to fear God. Those who hear this gospel must also believe God, because they will be doing this at great risk. The Beast will demand all to receive his “charagma” mark and worship him. This charagma mark indicates ownership by the Beast, in contrast to God’s own who will be sealed by the Spirit, and have His name on their foreheads. Huge numbers of God fearing people around the world will reject this as they realize it’s more than just a financial scheme. Many will see that Christians and Jews are being singled out for elimination in a 2nd Holocaust.

I remember this one story from, I think, “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs.” I would suggest all would benefit from this book. Anyways, it was demanded of these Roman soldiers to carry out the execution of innocent Christians. They basically do it or die themselves. One soldier, apparently who feared the true God, realizing an afterlife with probable justice for his actions, refused to carry out the command. Seeing their courageous faith, he suddenly changed sides, willing to die with Christians rather than suffer eternal damnation for the unrighteous slaughter of these innocent believers.

I think there were some German soldiers who also acted similarly during the first Holocaust.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I remember this one story from, I think, “Foxe’s Book of Martyrs.” I would suggest all would benefit from this book. Anyways, it was demanded of these Roman soldiers to carry out the execution of innocent Christians. They basically do it or die themselves. One soldier, apparently who feared the true God, realizing an afterlife with probable justice for his actions, refused to carry out the command. Seeing their courageous faith, he suddenly changed sides, willing to die with Christians rather than suffer eternal damnation for the unrighteous slaughter of these innocent believers.

I think there were some German soldiers who also acted similarly during the first Holocaust.

There are several examples of "righteous" gentiles in the OT, Rahab being a prime example.

Here is what it recorded on Wikipedia about Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, destroyer of Jerusalem:

"The Bible narrates how Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Kingdom of Judah, besieged, plundered and destroyed Jerusalem, and how he took away the Jews in captivity, portraying him as a cruel enemy of the Jewish people.The Bible also portrays Nebuchadnezzar as the legitimate ruler of all the nations of the world, appointed to rule the world by God. As such, Judah, through divine ruling, should have obeyed Nebuchadnezzar and not rebelled. Nebuchadnezzar is also depicted as carrying out death sentences pronounced by God, slaying two false prophets. Nebuchadnezzar's campaigns of conquest against other nations are portrayed as being in-line with God's will for Nebuchadnezzar's dominance.

Despite Nebuchadnezzar's negative portrayal, he is notably referred with the epithet 'my servant' (i.e. God's servant) in three places in the Book of Jeremiah. Nebuchadnezzar's attack on the Kingdom of Judah is theologically justified in the Book of Jeremiah on account of its populace's 'disobedience' of God, and the king is called "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant". The Book of Jeremiah also states that God has made all the Earth and given it to whom it seemed proper to give it to, deciding upon giving all of the lands of the world to "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant".
...
Given that Nebuchadnezzar was the enemy of what the Bible proclaims as God's chosen people, possibly the worst enemy they had faced until this point, there must be a special reason for referring to him with the epithet "my servant". "

I hereby propose that Nebuchadnezzar (gasp) obeyed God and it will be reckoned to him as righteousness.

Indeed, his interactions with Daniel reveal he was a person of at least some moral character.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

There are several examples of "righteous" gentiles in the OT, Rahab being a prime example.

I hereby propose that Nebuchadnezzar (gasp) obeyed God and it will be reckoned to him as righteousness.

Personally, I think that fearing God and obeying God are based on believing God. Abraham, the father of faith, shows us that faith in God provides the basis for God to reckon us righteous. Such was the case of Rahab, Nebuchadnezzar, and others.

The Bible displays many instances (e.g. Nahum) where faith was tested and proven thru obedience. Abraham's was tested on Mt. Moriah with Isaac. Even Jesus' faith was tested in the wilderness. During the coming tribulation, faith will be tested by fearing God, whether one receives the charagma mark of the Beast, and by not worshiping the Beast.

Consider the charagma of the Beast -- it will offer short term benefits, yet long-term losses -- and so often our faith is tested by God in this way.

(Btw, fyi, Wikipedia has slowly but surely developed an increasingly "progressive" policy towards all of its articles. Their team regularly rewrites and modifies articles to fit their agenda, starting with political policy and moving into other areas such as Biblical articles.)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If indeed the salvation that is available thru the Eternal Gospel changes during the Great Tribulation, there may be many of the nations.

Which introduces an interesting question. What about nations during the GT that refuse to take the mark of the beast or worship the beast and are killed? Sheep are alive when the Lord comes back, but what about nation-martyrs? Do they simply go to Paradise and resurrect at the GWT and are found to be in the book of life? Or something else?

There is a group of beast overcomers in Revelation 15:2-4 where it is not readily apparent if they are jews, christians or nations. Although maybe there are a couple of clues...the first possible clue (if you are up to the challenge), is to study the song they sing.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Which introduces an interesting question. What about nations during the GT that refuse to take the mark of the beast or worship the beast and are killed? Sheep are alive when the Lord comes back, but what about nation-martyrs? Do they simply go to Paradise and resurrect at the GWT and are found to be in the book of life? Or something else?

There is a group of beast overcomers in Revelation 15:2-4 where it is not readily apparent if they are jews, christians or nations. Although maybe there are a couple of clues...the first possible clue (if you are up to the challenge), is to study the song they sing.

This question is a good one, and it makes me want try this again:

I suggested earlier that the "eternal gospel", which is summed up as "do the right thing, or else suffer the consequences", is NOT some new gospel that will be preached during the GT.

Rather, this gospel has existed since the beginning of time. Whether a gentile dies during the tribulation or died in Moab makes no difference to me... they both are expected to intuitively have knowledge of what is good and what is evil, and will be judged accordingly.

Cain did not need to be told that murder is bad. He knew better.

So the NT gospel has a beginning and an end, but the eternal gospel will always be there for the Nations... then, now, and forever more.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I suggested earlier that the "eternal gospel", which is summed up as "do the right thing, or else suffer the consequences", is NOT some new gospel that will be preached during the GT.

The warnings at the GT are very specific, explicit and universally announced, relating to imminent judgement, the Day of the Lord, the Antichrist, the Great Babylon. All of these are very end of times specific and in that sense new or unique. They are going to echo the gospel in general and God´s commandments and warnings because they echo God´s character and righteousness which are unchangeable and timeless.

But I would be very careful in developing the idea of a gospel based on doing the right thing or on conscience, because it immediately produces another gospel and theological dilemmas. Much of this is way beyond my pay grade. But certainly God is just, God is fair. All of this is His plan.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The warnings at the GT are very specific, explicit and universally announced, relating to imminent judgement, the Day of the Lord, the Antichrist, the Great Babylon. All of these are very end of times specific and in that sense new or unique. They are going to echo the gospel in general and God´s commandments and warnings because they echo God´s character and righteousness which are unchangeable and timeless.

But I would be very careful in developing the idea of a gospel based on doing the right thing or on conscience, because it immediately produces another gospel and theological dilemmas. Much of this is way beyond my pay grade. But certainly God is just, God is fair. All of this is His plan.

Your points in the first paragraph are well-taken. My only response is that what will change is how the gospel to the nations will be preached.

Regarding your 2nd paragraph, I feel that part of the problem with today's version of Christianity is the natural inclination to insist there is only ONE gospel that leads to salvation, and that verses like "nobody comes to the Father except through me" are used to defend that position. But I now recognize this distinction: "eternal life" is not equal to "coming to the Father".

About your concern about "another gospel" being preached, I would simply ask that you tell me what Paul meant in Romans 2:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Is he not alluding to a two-part gospel: one for the church and another one for the rest of mankind?

[Timotheist]

What kinda fascinates me at times is the fact that so many non-Judeo-Christian religions have one theme in common: a judgement upon death which determines one's fate in the afterlife, and that judgement is a review of your moral character as evidenced by your deeds.

At the risk of citing another Wikipedia article, here is a synopsis of come of them:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgem...0after%20death.

My inclination now is to suggest that the "eternal gospel" was already there at Babel, and survived in various forms across the nations. This gospel (covenant?) informed the nations that they would be tested based upon their knowledge of good and evil. "Faith" is part of accepting this gospel: if one chooses to deny an afterlife judgement in the nations, then they are less likely to live in fear of such a judgement.

This gospel predated both the covenant with Abraham and the New Covenant, and is the yardstick by which the Nations will be judged.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

....

I think you have proposed lots of interesting ideas but they need more solid support in the Word. Like the four types of soil in the parable of the sower and then the four outcomes in the New Creation. Or that the rich man in Luke will be given a second chance Or the two-part gospel: one for the church and another one for the rest of mankind....

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think you have proposed lots of interesting ideas but they need more solid support in the Word. Like the four types of soil in the parable of the sower and then the four outcomes in the New Creation. Or that the rich man in Luke will be given a second chance Or the two-part gospel: one for the church and another one for the rest of mankind....

It has been a long journey my friend. WL preached about a threefold destiny: the unsaved, unregenerate nations, and the bride. That was my starting point of understanding.

He insisted that all of the church would become the bride, even those who were committed to outer darkness.

The day I realized that there were servants in the final destiny, and that these were separate from the bride (19:5-8), it was not too long before I asked myself if the sower parable was linked to this fourfold destiny.

In short, I see the connections, but admittedly only by using the jigsaw puzzle that the Scriptures portray and fitting the pieces together.

While the interpretation of the parable is given, I had many questions about the three classes of those who received the seed. According to the Luke reading, all of these are “saved”, because only the first type had salvation stolen from them.

Part of the puzzle is that many of the judgment parables classify servants into three groups, whereas unbelievers are separated into only two groups.

And so it goes from there.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think you have proposed lots of interesting ideas but they need more solid support in the Word. Like the four types of soil in the parable of the sower and then the four outcomes in the New Creation. Or that the rich man in Luke will be given a second chance Or the two-part gospel: one for the church and another one for the rest of mankind....

Regarding your rich man question:

The OT is full of promises of salvation for Israel, even for those who did not believe. And Paul confirms this in Romans, when he wrote of Israel’s unbelief, yet saying that all would be saved.

Therefore, the rich man, being an Israelite, will be saved. Lazarus has the reward of rest today, and will certainly enjoy a higher position in the Millennium.

As for the twofold gospel, I am still researching this, so I am not quite ready to commit

In truth, a lot of what I wrote recently is “thinking out loud”

[Timotheist]

Another great day for me was when I read Ezekiel and realized how the sons of Zadok were distinguished from the other Levites, getting special recognition for being “faithful”.

Thus I finally realized that the phrase “called, chosen, and faithful” described three types of believers, and thus was linked to the sower parable and the eternal destiny.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

As for the twofold gospel, I am still researching this, so I am not quite ready to commit

In truth, a lot of what I wrote recently is “thinking out loud”

I am getting closer to committing to this twofold gospel.

I have to admit that when reading Paul's letter to the Romans, I would tend to skim through the opening verses until I got to the part about being under Grace and not the Law.

But I just re-read the first 2 chapters. Slowly this time.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
(Rom*1:18-21*NAU)

32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (Rom*1:32*NAU)

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
(Rom*2:5-8*NAU)

Paul here summarizes the eternal gospel: there is no excuse for mankind not to believe what the creation evidences, and that those who seek to do good can obtain eternal life!

Of course Paul goes on to describe the salvation available to us through the "Spirit of holiness" (1:4), which offers us the sanctification promised way back in Psalm 51:

10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
(Psa*51:10-11*NAU)

7 Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. (Psa*51:7*NAU)

This Psalm, in fact is the ONLY place where the term "Holy Spirit" is used in the entire Old Testament, and is describing the sanctification that we can experience today.

The sheep and the goats will be judged according to the original gospel, and we believers will be judged by a higher standard of holiness.

[Timotheist]

OK, to summarize my rambling posts over the last few days:

In his epistle to the Romans, Paul outlines three paths to salvation.

1) Many Gentiles will be offered eternal life simply by striving to do good, knowing intuitively the difference between good and evil. This concept is supported in Matthew 25 in the judgement of the sheep and goats, and a similar judgement of the resurrected Gentiles will occur at the GWT. I have chosen to call this the "eternal gospel", linking this salvation to that gospel preached during the last days.

2) Israel's descendants will obtain salvation. All of them. Good or Bad. Supported by many prophecies in the OT, among which Paul cited only one in Romans. Individuals will be rewarded/punished during the Millennial Kingdom, but they all will have eternal life.

3) Belief in the salvation offered by Jesus Christ. This salvation is unique in that it offers us not only eternal life, but also the Holy (Sanctifying) Spirit to transform us into beings that may approach the throne in the New Creation. This type of salvation will produce "sons of God" (Rom 8:19). Some of these will be married to the Lamb, having been wholly sanctified in body, soul, and spirit, and will be blameless. This salvation does not recognize Jew or Greek, Israel or Gentile.

Sanctification is also an on-going process, spanning not only this life but in the Millennial Kingdom. During the 1000 years, participants, primarily Israel, will be offered sanctification. This activity is also predicted by many OT passages. The best example to me is in Ezekiel, where the population is described as passing through the temple on a regular basis, but only when the Prince is standing by, offering intercession as both a king and a priest. This activity is describing a sanctification process, by which individuals will be purified over time by being exposed to God's glory, as filtered by Christ.