What is the point of control? What do they want?

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give?

If you're a long-time lurker then you probably can guess my answer, but I'll make it brief - it's 100% sourced to its native culture. There are control freaks in every culture, but in Asian culture it makes its home with a preconceived disposition as to what's normal, creating the perfect storm. In my old local church 50 years ago it was 80% Caucasian 10% Chinese 10% Hispanic/Black/etc. Now it's 70% Chinese 15% Caucasian 15% other. Reason being is the Chinese cultural expectation is conformity, not individuality. In the West it's different. In the West, the faceless-nameless-group thing is "cultic". And the uniform and uncritical expectation of conformity is the foundation of control. Yet in Asia that's the way the group goes on. Is it coincidence that European Karl Marx' idea of the 'proletariat' only found safe haven in China? I doubt it.

Let me give an example: in both of his sons, Timothy as President of Daystar being funded by church members' life-savings, who then were told to consider it a donation, to Philip repeatedly molesting women serving in LSM offices, with victims and witnesses relocated, there were clear violations of NT principles found in Matthew 18, Titus 1:6 etc etc. Any Western-sourced Church would have blown the lid off such abuses. Even the RCC couldn't eternally hide their predator-priests. Yet in the LC life went on. Why? Because the Chinese culture absorbed it, covered it - it was necessary for the group cohesion. Individuals had to be sacrificed for the "Church", which was nothing but cover for a guanxi network run by a Chinese expatriate.

Similarly, WL saying all local churches must be "absolutely identical" with "no differences whatsoever" in the footnotes to the seven lampstands in Revelations 1 and 2 is biased and self-serving interpretation. Have you ever seen a hand-beaten metal calyx or pomegranate? Are they "absolutely identical"? No - but the Chinese orientation insisted it must be so. The fable that God got "virgin soil" in China is just that - a fable. They're fallen like everyone else. Their trick was to convince others that their culturally-sourced interpretations were spiritual. They weren't and now we see the evident fruit of our unquestioning and uncritical reception of those ideas as though they came from God.

The point of control is to fund the Witness Lee Guanxi Network - I believe that even today his heirs get residual checks in the tens of thousands - and the mirrored point of allowing and fostering such control by group members is group cohesion, the so-called "normal church life" or the "building up of the body of Christ". A control freak meets his willing and expectant audience. This was covered at length in the thread "The Asian Mind/The Western Mind". And I'm not pushing racial or cultural inferiority, either here or AM/WM thread. There are things that work well, that must work well, in a society thousands of years old - look how few died in China during the recent pandemic, for instance. And the "freedoms" and "rugged individualities" of the West have their dark side - civil unrest accompanying BLM protests and recent elections in USA. But the question was on a church that demands absolute conformity, even when there's little if any scriptural basis. I say, it's culturally-based.

[Covert]

The LR believes only they can bring back the second of Jesus, by spreading the lords recovery, and the higher gospel (overcomers) throughout the Earth. Anything that attempts to stop this, will be shut down and destroyed in their eyes. They believe they are the recovery, and the only group eligible to be the bride in the book of Revelations. The extreme control of member is due to the insecurity of members spending time away from the group and in their worst fear- finding a different place to worship in Spirit. Its why they isolate and cut themselves off from other Christians and belittle them. Its why they try to cut people off from friends, family, and love ones. Its why they demonize you for having hobbies or activities that away time from LR related things such as meetings, conferences, and trainings. They are struggling to hang on as it is, and every person already in the LR, they want to keep and control like farm animals.

It is complete utter madness, and this delusion that only they can bring back Jesus, is just fueling this day in and day out. Have any questions, feel free to comment and me or any other wonderful person here will be glad to give you feed back. Also as Aaron mentioned, the Chinese culture emphasis does not help at all either.

I recommend some homework, research something called the "Shepherding movement", and upon researching this. You will get a broader perspective on how you and many other churches/groups has suffered under this system. Thank you for your forum participation.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

I’m curious about your being a “responsible brother”. What do you mean? Are you an elder, or do you mean you are responsible in your practical life, or some such?

Control is about power. To speculate on an answer to your questions about “control”, it’s possible that the leadership is in so deep, with Lee’s teachings, that they can’t back out without “losing face”. They have left themselves no way out. Not even God can stop this train. They are drunk with power, or their strong delusions of power. They are deceived, and with all forms of social media, they are losing control…so they double down and control what they can.

My favorite quote from Lucy in the old Peanuts comic strip is “If you can’t be right, be wrong as loud as you can.” I think there’s a lot of that going on on several levels in the LC. Also, “I’m talking and I can’t shut up.”

Covert may be on to something…they are committed to bringing the Lord back…no pressure there!

Nell

[OBW]

aron,

You may be right that so much of what is wrong with the LC and with Nee's and Lee's teachings springs from the culture they grew up with. But does that result in a "self-serving translation"? Or is the translation, while no less erroneous, the result of that culture mixed with negligible true training in the scripture. You may remember that I often said something like "from one accountant to another, Lee should have kept his day job." I don't recall the circumstances, but I believe that Lee once stated that he had been an accountant (maybe briefly) before deciding to go into ministry. And other than essentially taking on Nee as his "rabbi," he never said anything about any actual training.

All this study of the Chinese culture might be useful. But I have always been skeptical that it is the real problem. Just something that should have been like adding Kaopectate to everything. You may not get diarrhea, but everything sure tasted funny.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Covert

The LR believes only they can bring back the second of Jesus, by spreading the lords recovery, and the higher gospel (overcomers) throughout the Earth.

I think you are spot on here. There was something else quoted recently (maybe one of the Wednesday quotes) that almost directly stated that God couldn't complete this age without them. Since that makes a statement against the character and power of God (who doesn't need man for anything), it probably stands as a kind of blaspheme.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

Welcome to the written part of the forum, Long-with-four-o's time lurker!

I've often wondered the same thing as you - what on earth is the POINT of the control? What do those perpetuating the control get out of it?

One verse that came to mind when reading your question is in Matthew 20, when Jesus tells the disciples that they will not be like those who lord it over others.

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

The rulers of the Gentiles lorded it over them and exercised authority over them. Why? Because they wanted to become great and to be first, or at least feel that way. I don't think it's any different today.

But for me, I think it's ultimately a lack of understanding the gospel. Christ set us free so we would be free. ("It is for freedom that Christ has set us free"). He was very harsh on the leaders who put extra burdens on the people's shoulders, who tied them up and weighed them down, who cared for the tiny gnats and yet let camels pass, who measured out little herbs and yet ignored serious matters of mercy, justice, faithfulness.

"Having a good meeting" is, in my view, an extra burden, a heavy yoke, a tiny gnat that distracts from the things we should care about - the people, not the meetings. You can spend your whole life "having good meetings" but the souls in those meetings are actually miserable and suffering at the same time and when they get home too. It's caring for the whitewashed tomb, and pulling the rug over the decaying bones. As a responsible brother, have you felt that condemnatory weight upon you when a meeting didn't go "well"? That condemnation is utterly futile. It's a condemnation not from God.

Does "building up the church" mean "having a good meeting"? Nope. The church is the people. So it's the people who need to be built up, encouraged, edified, noticed, inquired after, served, helped, assisted, listened to, understood, cared for, etc. Caring for the meetings sounds like it's caring for the people, but it's not. It's a notch or two off......enough to lead astray, but small enough to be hard to detect.

This type of control is actually a prop for the insecure. Secure people, those who understand they are sinners accepted by God not because of anything they've done to earn it, those who trust in the righteousness, mercy, and love of God, those who understand that a good or a failed meeting doesn't make God love or accept them any more or any less, don't need to control in this way. People like to control, or like "good meetings" because it's an outward clue that tells them they are doing the right thing, or that they are "running the church well". People also like unnecessary rules they can wield to condemn others because it makes them feel like they are in the exclusive, elite "at least I'm not like that guy" club. There's all kinds of reasons, but I think neglecting the gospel is a big part of it. There's a reason Paul and the others kept harping on the new church not to forget what they've been taught, not to deviate, not to stray from the sound teaching.

Trapped

[Covert]

This a post from a long time forum contributor Ohio, in this post, Ohio gives insight onto the insecurity and hyper control of meetings regarding Witness Lee ministry. I laughed in the last portion of this post regarding the hatred of the pure word by LR members, clearly exposes the "Sa***** corruption in this new religious movement.

Originally Posted by TheGodMen

The Local Church mentality evidently has no difficulty in accomodating contradiction in a variety of forms.... For example, Witness Lee says that "doctrine only works divisions among the Lord's children" and "the more we talk about doctrines, the more we will quarrel". (WL The Economy of God, pg 23). At the same time, he not only teaches but insists upon certain doctrines (such as "mingling" and "local ground") in a way that leads him to reject fellowship with every major Christian body in the world.

Originally Posted by Ohio

NFNL, I know you were not in the LC's when I was, but let me mention one of Lee's starkest contradictions alluded to by this paragraph above.

I entered the LC's in the mid-70's. One strong theme then present was our need to "return to the pure word of God." This abounded in Lee's ministry, the local ministries, and daily conversation. Since I was raised in Catholicism, this was especially attractive to me. (Remember I was the altar boy who knew the mass in both Latin and English.) I was thoroughly convinced at the time that Lee and his ministry were entirely devoted to God's pure word. One statement that stood out, loud and clear, was Lee's repeated saying that "we don't need systematic theology, we just need the pure word of God!"

Fast forward 20 years to the "high peak" era, after the "Ingalls rebellion."

I was slowly beginning to realize that all we had by then was "systematic theology." God's economy and high peak theology must abound in every message, song, and meeting or we may get reported to headquarters. I remember one Sunday meeting when the elders were gone and I was left responsible for the meeting. We had a brother visit us from Southern Florida who stood up during our prophesying time and started out, "I don't know if you use the Holy Word for Morning Revival ..." Immediately I jumped up and declared, "Yes we do, we use HWFMR all the time." I didn't think twice before saying this. Who knows what kind of rumors would have started about us!

It had actually become dangerous to only use the Bible, even if it was the Recovery version. What had happened to us? All we had was systematic theology! How far had we fallen! The Bible had become a dangerous book in the hands of common saints. It must be properly interpreted! It must be accompanied by the ministry! I remember talking to an in-law of mine during the recent quarantine who also was from Florida. He told me succinctly that "coming back to the pure word of God" was nothing more than a "tactic of the enemy." He then related how Bill Mallon attempted the same strategy during the last rebellion.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

I’d suggest reading Steve Hassan’s book, “Combatting Cult Mind Control.” If they didn’t use the tactics listed in the book, at this point- they would lose control, power, and (most importantly) money. All high control/authoritarian groups use unethical influence techniques. I have no idea how they justify it with holy language. If cults do these things, don’t do them if you claim you’re not a cult!

I'm still in the church and we are in the middle of a training. It seems the coworkers share the same messages. Ed Marks shared about having to being broken and experiencing the lesson of the cross. The natural man having to be broken. Said God will put you in situations to where you are utter helpless and can only cry out and depend on Him to gain Him. To the point of utter despair.

And again they don't forget the rebellions. Ed shared and said that a coworker who rebelled and left did so because his natural man was never broken. Your thoughts? Even though I have heard this many times.

[Ohio]

Sounds like a message to drug addicts and alcoholics, telling them how they need to hit “rock bottom” and cry out to their higher power before they can be delivered from their addictions. To them “broken” means utterly dependent and obedient to the mandates of some LaPalma Avenue book publisher.

[Zezima]

What Bible references do they use to back up this point?

I can’t recall Paul ever telling us our natural man needs to be broken. We are saved by Grace through faith.

The message also covered spiritual principles, life lessons and holy warnings. Talked about God's sovereignty and governmental righteousness by not submitting, disobedience, rebellining and not denying the self which is a great sin. This then brings in His punishing judgement according to God's governmental righteousness. God is loving and merciful but disciplines and chastises. And this should be a warning to us they believe. Ed Marks was using the examples of Saul and David.

But in a earlier message Minoru Chen said death is even worse than sin.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm still in the church and we are in the middle of a training. It seems the coworkers share the same messages. Ed Marks shared about having to being broken and experiencing the lesson of the cross. The natural man having to be broken. Said God will put you in situations to where you are utter helpless and can only cry out and depend on Him to gain Him. To the point of utter despair.

And again they don't forget the rebellions. Ed shared and said that a coworker who rebelled and left did so because his natural man was never broken. Your thoughts? Even though I have heard this many times.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like a message to drug addicts and alcoholics, telling them how they need to hit “rock bottom” and cry out to their higher power before they can be delivered from their addictions. To them “broken” means utterly dependent and obedient to the mandates of some LaPalma Avenue book publisher.

The idea of breaking of the “natural man”, is totally a foreign Biblical concept. It’s has no foundation on/in the Word of God. The ministry of Jesus Christ while he was in the world, was to fulfill the law, and to bring in the redemption to man. His perfect human life, is imputed to us or given to us as a gift of salvation. We as born again believers, are instructed to put to death the WORKS OF THE FLESH, deal with the desires of the flesh, and not to be destroying our human nature which was created in the image of God. Satan, just loves to see people focused on destroying the image of God, rather than one is dealing with the works of the flesh. Although subtle, but deadly difference, that I believe is plaguing the teachings and the instructions to people today. It’s all stems and roots in the foundational believes that man will become god, just not in the godhead, which is a total lie and deception.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What Bible references do they use to back up this point?

I can’t recall Paul ever telling us our natural man needs to be broken. We are saved by Grace through faith.

Here's a short excerpt from Nee from "The Breaking of the Outer Man and the Release of the Spirit""

Romans 7:22 says, "For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man." Our inner man delights in the law of God. Ephesians 3:16 also tells us "to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man." In 2 Corinthians 4:16 Paul also said, "Though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day." The Bible divides our being into the outer man and the inner man. God resides in the inner man, and the man outside this God-occupied inner man is the outer man. In other words, our spirit is the inner man, while the person that others contact is the outer man. Our inner man puts on our outer man like a garment. God has placed Himself, His Spirit, His life, and His power in us, that is, in our inner man. Outside of our inner man is our mind, emotion, and will. Outside of all these is our body, our flesh.

But Romans 7:22 is followed up by Paul exclaiming "who will rescue me from this body of death?" Ephesians 3:16 simply speaks of an inner man or inner being, but carries no indication of it needed to be "released" via the "breaking of the outer man". And 2 Corinthians 4:16 is, I think, clearly speaking of our physical body decaying.

Most commentaries simply conclude "body and soul" by "outer/inner". Nee and Lee conclude outer = body and soul, and inner = spirit. The verses, however, don't support that. Our body is decaying; our soul is not.

I think Nee once again just needlessly divided up a human being into parts that don't exist........so they could be condemned and crushed even more.

This is partly why the FTTA exists - to "break the outer man".....meaning, to crush the soul through countless deadlines they have to meet during the day, unnecessarily strict cleaning regulations, and punishments for things that are not sins or anywhere near them.

Control gives people a feeling of power and authority and superiority. As base as it is, the desire for this feeling is one of the main causes of all this destruction caused by the LC. Power and control is "lording it over", which Jesus said is not to be done by His disciples.

Outside this forum I am also hearing reports of what is being spoken at the semi-annual trainings. I am sad for all the people trapped there having their reality shaped by lies.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The message also covered spiritual principles, life lessons and holy warnings. Talked about God's sovereignty and governmental righteousness by not submitting, disobedience, rebellining and not denying the self which is a great sin. This then brings in His punishing judgement according to God's governmental righteousness. God is loving and merciful but disciplines and chastises. And this should be a warning to us they believe. Ed Marks was using the examples of Saul and David.

But in a earlier message Minoru Chen said death is even worse than sin.

Unregistered, thank you for giving us a further glimpse of what is being spoken.

Are you the same unregistered who has posted 4-5 posts on a few threads the past day or two?

Unregistered, I hope you know that this kind of speaking from a church is one of the characteristics found in what are called "abusive churches". Abusive churches often use Old Testament stories to rail and threaten and oppress. I mean.....look at all the words you used to describe their speaking in just this short paragraph:

warning, governmental (I know the co-workers throw a lot of threatening weight behind that word), submission, disobedience, rebellion, deny the self, sin, punishment, judgement, discipline, chastise, warning, death.

Do you feel edified or built up or encouraged or at peace or even......safe in God's hands hearing that?

The Bible tells us that Christ died to set us free so we would be free. That God loves us so much that He gave up His only Son to save us! That death no longer has it's sting, and that we are not to fear death because the One who saves our soul will not let us go. That He made us individual and unique members in a body and gave us specific gifts to be used according to His granting. That we were made for good works and to love people. Christ came to save sinners, not to condemn them. God loved us WHILE WE WERE SINNERS, and He doesn't love us any less after salvation, either. Yes, He disciplines His children like any father does, but the ratio of discipline and condemnation in the local church is grossly lopsided compared to the emphasis of it in Scripture.

Death, unregistered, is actually from God. God is the one who punishes us with death for our sins. This is a huge upside down teaching in the local church, which teaches that death is of Satan and of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But the Biblical record is that "the wages of sin is death" - in other words, death is our wages, our payment, what we earned because we sin. But God doesn't want anyone to perish, so He sent His Son to save us. This is where death comes from (punishment for our sins), and as children of God who believe in the Savior, we should be free of the fear of death. As you sit in those training meetings, I hope you would not let the fear and condemnation and "death threats" affect you. There are many healthier places out there. We are here if you ever want to talk more about how you are doing in the local church.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm still in the church and we are in the middle of a training. It seems the coworkers share the same messages. Ed Marks shared about having to being broken and experiencing the lesson of the cross. The natural man having to be broken. Said God will put you in situations to where you are utter helpless and can only cry out and depend on Him to gain Him. To the point of utter despair.

And again they don't forget the rebellions. Ed shared and said that a coworker who rebelled and left did so because his natural man was never broken. Your thoughts? Even though I have heard this many times.

This kind of statement by Ed Marks about a co-worker is what is known as an "ad hominem attack". It just disparages the person with unverifiable claims. Like Jo Casteel was labelled "rebellious" or "leprous". These are fear-based words designed to make people turn away from the "unwanted" or "diseased" member in order to distract from the truth of the things she was saying. This is a well-worn tactic in abusive churches.

Unregistered, I would strongly encourage you to get the following two books:

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnsen and VanVonderen
Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue

Trapped

Thanks for your reply. Most older saints, the Chinese just listen to the messages and let it go over their head. The older Caucasian brothers and Chinese elders and coworkers take it serious . And push it on the young working saints and their locality.

The coworkers said we need to be broken down completely to concecrate ourselves. That God wants nothing natural good or bad. Only Christ in you. That you need to be in prisioned in Him. But also being His reproduction in life and natural. But then God is always searching and judging you.

But, before you are broken down you have to realize that you're nothing and can do nothing. When you're in the stage of transformation if you keep anything you will be punished and suffer God's judgement for rebellion and disobedience. The coworkers believe if you have a problem the problem is with you. Because you're not enjoying God, in the self, mind, flesh and refuse to be broken and balanced my another saint or deputy authority.

Sorry so much but I have a good memory and want to get this out there. Beyond just the teachings I want to ask about real life situations.

Ron recently shared. And there is a feeling about the young people mainly about the young working saints that you're mentally ill and short of demon possessed. Ron said that saints need take medicine before he will fellowship with them because it's bio chemical. But Brother Lee said you just need Jesus.

On the matter of divorce how come elders say when a sister comes with the problem they're not the ones under the headship of Christ. I know of situations where elders have lectured and wrote letters to wives. Some sisters were so messed up they actually attacked the leading brothers physically. If the wives can't take it the elders or leading ones say because it's not cheating and fornication they can only seperate. I know some, they're no longer in the church who considered suicide.

And this last thing which you will find odd and interesting. At building 8 during the construction there was a full time sister who was the safety officer. Building 8 is the new conference center. I volunteered down there once. As I was coming back from lunch she pointed and screamed at me from afar. I stopped and she caught up to me. She pointed at the ground and said if you hit that you're in big trouble and will cost us alot of money. It was a large extension cord which I already knew about.

While I was there a new brother volunteered. Within hours she noticed and ambushed him. The brother was casually coming back from lunch and she got in his face like a military drill Sargent. One last thing. Which I couldn't believe. A brother came to the job site with no steel toe boots on. He was in shorts too. The brothers and sisters were talking about how the sister safety officer would lose it. She ambushed this brother and made him get on his knees and apologize several times in front of her. Saints were coming and going on the job site that he would never break the rules again.

She was a ftta grad and went full time. So how could she then have the headship. Brothers tried to tame her but she wouldn't listen and they were afraid of her.

I also met Minoru Chen once. I rode in the Bfa van before and took it to a city where he was holding a mini conference. One of the brothers I rode with knew him well. During lunch he introduced me to Minoru. Minoru just said hi and then excused himself to pray with the leading brothers of that locality for his message that night. I spent 3 days driving cross country. In the van I joked why minoru wasn't in the van. And, instead flying. The brother said minoru's time is much important than ours. Like 10 times more. I have also talked to some fulltimers who have reached out to coworkers for fellowship but we're ignored and not given the time of day.

One last thing. Minoru told us young working saints to make less money and have a simple life to give more time to God and gain Him. How does this work when Minoru is a multi millionaire and his cousin Ronnie Chen is a Billionaire? The saying is God only allows some saints that are humble about their money to become successful.

Thanks for the fellowship.

[Robert]

I would like to answer with question.
Who was guilty? Moses, Aaron or nation ?
Ex 32:1
And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Who forced me to join this group of believers?
Who forced me o read only their books?
Who can stop me from searching for Lord in my prayer or Bible reading?
Actually I work on small project- analysis of Faith Movement. Money,manipulation and mind control.
I see halls filled with believers. Why hey came there? What they are looking for? One thing among few is ( no time to put here everything) COMFORT.
I really have no time to explain how it works. But as long there is public, there will be leader.
That is why little by little saint fall in sleep after years.
The same topics all the time!
First of all Bible schools are not biblical.
For second, Church is not about knowledge but about daily simply life in faith and trust to Lord.
And for last: in our evil nature, always will be tendency to rule over somebody.
Jesus was teaching about it. So if there is no spiritual growth, there will be fruit of flesh and sinful nature.
All we hae individual resposibility before God for our words and actions.
This is what means to be mature son and servant to take responsibility for our own part in Christ's Body.
Head is full of thoughts.
For now that is it.
Tricks or not, deception or not, what can I do, if I alarm saints about wrong things, but they do not listen?
Just prayer. We and they belong to Lord.
May Lord have mercy on all of us.
edit:
COMFORT- knowing this or that. The more we know, more we feel stable. More stable, more comfortable. More comfortable, less watching.
So they sell good product.
Just consider what I say this way: Who is more shaking You and awaking? WL or Paul Washer or David Wilkerson? Which Jesus from those two preached is more wanted? Which preaching is causing us prayer with respect, godliness and healthy fear of God?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The coworkers said we need to be broken down completely to concecrate ourselves. That God wants nothing natural good or bad. Only Christ in you. That you need to be in prisioned in Him. But also being His reproduction in life and natural. But then God is always searching and judging you.

But, before you are broken down you have to realize that you're nothing and can do nothing. When you're in the stage of transformation if you keep anything you will be punished and suffer God's judgement for rebellion and disobedience. The coworkers believe if you have a problem the problem is with you. Because you're not enjoying God, in the self, mind, flesh and refuse to be broken and balanced my another saint or deputy authority.

If God only wants Christ in you...well....He's already got Christ. He doesn't need us if all He wants is Christ.

God and Christ are never represented as a prison or as our jailers. They are our Father, our brother, our bridegroom, our Savior, etc.... It's the devil who would want us to think of them as our prison.

The Lord's Recovery does a great job of misrepresenting God.

Just to try to hammer it home a little bit, this statement of yours I've bolded above (which absolutely is the view in the local churches) is talked about in books about spiritual abuse and abusive churches.

...the difference between an abusive and non-abusive system is that while hurtful behaviors might happen in both, it is not permissible to talk about problems, hurts and abuses in the abusive system. Hence, there is no healing and restoration after the wound has occurred, and the victim is made to feel at fault for questioning or pointing out the problem. (The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse)

There are many, many countless reasons why Christians "out there" call the local church a cult, or an unhealthy, aberrant group.

I'll try to respond to the rest of your post when I have some more time.

Trapped

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I also met Minoru Chen once. I rode in the Bfa van before and took it to a city where he was holding a mini conference. One of the brothers I rode with knew him well. During lunch he introduced me to Minoru. Minoru just said hi and then excused himself to pray with the leading brothers of that locality for his message that night. I spent 3 days driving cross country. In the van I joked why minoru wasn't in the van. And, instead flying. The brother said minoru's time is much important than ours. Like 10 times more. I have also talked to some fulltimers who have reached out to coworkers for fellowship but we're ignored and not given the time of day.

One last thing. Minoru told us young working saints to make less money and have a simple life to give more time to God and gain Him. How does this work when Minoru is a multi millionaire and his cousin Ronnie Chen is a Billionaire? The saying is God only allows some saints that are humble about their money to become successful.

Thanks for the fellowship.

I am so sorry for no verses this time

Quote by Roxanne Bland

Forget what they told you. You want the truth, follow the money.

I wanted to add that they say God puts us in suffering situations so we won't sin. Because when we're at ease we will willfully sin. But elsewhere they say God arranges our situations and environments of suffering for our transformation.

But, then our suffering is judgement and discipline for sins of rebellion, disobedience, keeping and expressing the natural man and flesh. Or for not blessing but criticizing, condeming or speaking in a light way about others. The message was hard to follow as alot of words were strung together.

I want to lastly touch on the lusts of the flesh. They say lusts doesn't just have to be sexual, sinful or evil. But it can be like liking a type of food, having hobbies or modern fashion. Or something perceived as worldly in the house. I was too young but know of the burnings which they said was a clearance of the past. The newly saved would bring stuff and throw it into a barn fire.

One last thing. Like I always say. Christmas was a few days ago. I went to my brothers house. He is in Christianity. My parents said they would no longer go to his house and receive gifts. I went to his house and my dad was very anxious before I stayed with my parents during the holidays. Both Christmas Eve and Christmas he was anxious before and after bi came back. He knows what happens each year so he doesn't need to ask.

Basically, we ate dinner, sang song, prayed, opened presents and had a good time. After I told my dad he walked away disturbed band said it's a pagan holiday. Demonic, Satanic, and a mixture of religion and the world. I had a great time and received presents while he and my mom stayed home two nights insisting they were making a stand for God, the truth and the Church.

I don't think I included that it was shared that we sin when we are at ease and have no suffering and enjoy doing it. So God then puts us through suffering so we won't sin. But elsewhere they mention that God puts us through suffering to strip us down, to be in utter helplessness to give him a free way to operate.

But then puts us through suffering by judging us directly or through Satan because of rebellion, disobedience keeping our natural man and self. Or because of criticizing, condemning or speaking loosely about someone this not blessing them. Therefore, the governmental sovereignty and judge comes upon us.

Ed Marks has shared previously whatever happens to us is God's sovereignty as he arranges our situations and environments. And that in each he must increase we must increase. Ed said we need to pray to God before something happens that He would wreck and destroy our personal universe so He can be God of our personal universe and not this. Before I use to just listen to this and not think much. When some things happened I was afraid and didn't know what would happen next. Im ok now when I hear this speaking and don't get frightened. But it's hard to understand and agree to.

I want to end that the message in the recovery is that we're in the end times and have nothing to live for except for Christ and the Church and migrating. And finishing being matured to be raptured.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

1. But, then our suffering is judgement and discipline for sins of rebellion, disobedience, keeping and expressing the natural man and flesh. Or for not blessing but criticizing, condeming or speaking in a light way about others. The message was hard to follow as alot of words were strung together.

2.Basically, we ate dinner, sang song, prayed, opened presents and had a good time. After I told my dad he walked away disturbed band said it's a pagan holiday. Demonic, Satanic, and a mixture of religion and the world. I had a great time and received presents while he and my mom stayed home two nights insisting they were making a stand for God, the truth and the Church.

1. The point in cult or sects or deception is, that there is always some Truth.
Another catastrophe in LC is the overload of information and teaching.
It does not work this way. Hunger or number of answers should follow number of given questions.
On FTTA are mostly people aged 20-25. Having hope, good will, open heart they are told ( or given impression) that here, during FTTA they will be equipped to live gooood Christian life to "fulfill God's economy".
Lies.
2. You share a lot of Your experience here.
Our point of view is all the time changing during life time. It includes our knowledge of Christ.
From kids point of view, Christmass is nice event. Many saints still celebrate this holiday. Having good knowledge or bad, seeing spiritual reality or not, but they celebrate.
It is not about condemning, but growth in Heavenly Kingdom.
But Scripture says, that ones celebrate days, oter do not. It is not reason to make division.
The question for mature saints is, what they can do and how cooperate with God, to cause others growth, wich will cause them to drop bad and empty things.
So this is delicate matter, how far others can interrupt us and be involved in our growth.
This is up to us mostly.
But bad workers, giving too much food at once and in bad time, also can make demages in others life.
THAT IS WHY I REPEAT ALL THE TIME: BIBLICAL SCHOOLS ARE NOT BIBLICAL!

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

1.Ed Marks has shared previously whatever happens to us is God's sovereignty as he arranges our situations and environments. And that in each he must increase we must increase. Ed said we need to pray to God before something happens that He would wreck and destroy our personal universe so He can be God of our personal universe and not this. Before I use to just listen to this and not think much. When some things happened I was afraid and didn't know what would happen next. Im ok now when I hear this speaking and don't get frightened. But it's hard to understand and agree to.

2.I want to end that the message in the recovery is that we're in the end times and have nothing to live for except for Christ and the Church and migrating. And finishing being matured to be raptured.

Ad 1. psychological gibberish based on Bible. Would not be simpler just to quote verse from Bible? No! Because message would be too short, and the whole impression of saying something spiritual could snapped! (about what Ed said).
According Your personal experiences. It is good to ask Lord to give You some saints who will become friends in daily life and in faith.
Ron, Ed, Minoru, will not hug You when sorrow will come or thugh experience.
Good news is ( if there was such) that Lord knows, what is good for us in any time. But we have to pray and as and be sure what is His will.
General teaching will not help so that much as real saint united with You in Holy Spirit. Having compassion, heart and love to You.

Ad.2. To live for Christ? Truth!
"...and Church and migrating". Nope! Unbiblical. Lies used to excuse their plans and for programming saint to do their will.
"And finishing being matured to be raptured." Another false teaching just to engage saint in some PLAN, GOAL.
Who has to be mature. Where is that statement in Bible? Who is qualified to discern who and when is mature?
I see many times Ron saying BS like immature school boy. So silver hair is enough?
Bible school? Few dacedes of serving in denomination called Local Church?
So goal of Bride prepared or being "mature" is vaguely defined.
Sounds good but false goal.

About Ron not giving saints a hug in suffering times. When Susan died his kids and saints were coming over every day to provide food and practical matters. I didn't fully remember the message on purpose but he didn't know how to use dishwasher. He said he was at loss without Susan. But single sisters were giving elders and coworkers applications to marry him. And, Ron married a sister from Russia. When he spoke about not crowning his wife he was talking about his current one.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

About Ron not giving saints a hug in suffering times. When Susan died his kids and saints were coming over every day to provide food and practical matters. I didn't fully remember the message on purpose but he didn't know how to use dishwasher. He said he was at loss without Susan. But single sisters were giving elders and coworkers applications to marry him. And, Ron married a sister from Russia. When he spoke about not crowning his wife he was talking about his current one.

Can You be more clear?
What hugs have to do with following story with wife? And crowning wife?
Ron is human. Older man and we have to respect and love saints.
I mentioned names as symbol of top leaders who are not available for students coming to FTTA. The point was, they can teach and preach, but we have to have real friends for fellowship and prayer and daily life. That was my point. Not to insult anybody.

[Zezima]

The point of control is the result of being under a performance based salvation system. They followed Lee who convinced them their salvation was based off performance, because Lee thought his was based off his followers. The pattern continued.

[Robert]

Meetings are limited now.
I recall Ron, sitting in the room alone, saying in the beginning of one message to camera: "I hope You are there, watching me..." or something like that.
I just realized, that Lord can use tat tie to heal many and withdraw from sectarian thinking or this sect at least.

I think, most of BB are victims of over honoring them.
Now, they have no public, no choral "ameeeen!".
More time for themself. They teach one thing but probably was exercising another.
Brother having millions, is advising oters to live everyting and serve the Lord, but in fact for their goals and desires.
I call this hypocrisy.
How brother after leaving wife, can teach about faithfulness? Everything but this topic.
The same with rich saints. They invest in buildings, cemetery, companies, but very poor families struggle with daily bread.
Jesus and Paul"s ministry should be example for us.
So, for now, many thing seems to slow down, and they also started to talk more real things.
But still, no signs of " I am sorry" or we were wrong".

I was not insulting Ron, nor would I. I remember during a training when someone called his landline and left a message praying to Satan. While he was sharing he was dead serious and mad. He and his wife prayed strongly to bind the demon that Ron thought had taken over the young man.

I mentioned earlier about how Ricky said everything had to be for Christ and the Church. One in a message for the training Ron talked about marriage. He said a mature brother with discernment, feeling and care for the body would know if he should marry someone. Of course, the ftta trainees after they graduate are those who do most of the marrying. Ron shared previously, before the training that men needed to stop being wimps and be men. His idea of being men is going to a brother and saying they're interested in a sister and getting other saints involved. They use the story of Isaac.

So my question is what do you think of the saints getting involved in marriages. Of course, it's usually simple if you're in the church. But, the sister and brother keep it hidden until they stand up Lord's to announce their engagement.

But, if a brother or sister dates and wants to marry someone outside the church it's a big issue. And, it's only a ok if they choose to be a Christian and come into the church and choose this way. For any ftta grads you know the rule on dating. There is none. If you're in your relationship you need to end it for two years. You can't even see or communicate on breaks. If you're engaged prior you have to pause it for two years..

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I was not insulting Ron, nor would I. I remember during a training when someone called his landline and left a message praying to Satan. While he was sharing he was dead serious and mad. He and his wife prayed strongly to bind the demon that Ron thought had taken over the young man.

I mentioned earlier about how Ricky said everything had to be for Christ and the Church. One in a message for the training Ron talked about marriage. He said a mature brother with discernment, feeling and care for the body would know if he should marry someone. Of course, the ftta trainees after they graduate are those who do most of the marrying. Ron shared previously, before the training that men needed to stop being wimps and be men. His idea of being men is going to a brother and saying they're interested in a sister and getting other saints involved. They use the story of Isaac.

So my question is what do you think of the saints getting involved in marriages. Of course, it's usually simple if you're in the church. But, the sister and brother keep it hidden until they stand up Lord's to announce their engagement.

But, if a brother or sister dates and wants to marry someone outside the church it's a big issue. And, it's only a ok if they choose to be a Christian and come into the church and choose this way. For any ftta grads you know the rule on dating. There is none. If you're in your relationship you need to end it for two years. You can't even see or communicate on breaks. If you're engaged prior you have to pause it for two years..

Why You related my words "That was my point. Not to insult anybody."to Yourself about insulting? No idea. But ok, You did not wont too.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I was not insulting Ron, nor would I. I remember during a training when someone called his landline and left a message praying to Satan. While he was sharing he was dead serious and mad. He and his wife prayed strongly to bind the demon that Ron thought had taken over the young man.

I mentioned earlier about how Ricky said everything had to be for Christ and the Church. One in a message for the training Ron talked about marriage. He said a mature brother with discernment, feeling and care for the body would know if he should marry someone. Of course, the ftta trainees after they graduate are those who do most of the marrying. Ron shared previously, before the training that men needed to stop being wimps and be men. His idea of being men is going to a brother and saying they're interested in a sister and getting other saints involved. They use the story of Isaac.

So my question is what do you think of the saints getting involved in marriages. Of course, it's usually simple if you're in the church. But, the sister and brother keep it hidden until they stand up Lord's to announce their engagement.

But, if a brother or sister dates and wants to marry someone outside the church it's a big issue. And, it's only a ok if they choose to be a Christian and come into the church and choose this way. For any ftta grads you know the rule on dating. There is none. If you're in your relationship you need to end it for two years. You can't even see or communicate on breaks. If you're engaged prior you have to pause it for two years..

Ok. Once again!

The one of the biggest problem and mistake in LR is , that they talk too much, and teach about details they shouldn't.
There is area reserved for personal fellowshipping with those who can have such and such problem. They want to give all receipts for life in public teaching. They should just keep apostolic teaching which is in Bible.
That is why there is so many confusion in young people's life.
Overload of information.
Information never replace spiritual brother -father.
I know few saints, who are not the biggest brains but having love and Holy Spirit to serve others.
After about 25 years I have enough this bla, bla, bla waterred messages without Holy Spirit.
I know some saints who are strong in mind and can recite banners and verses easily.
But, no spirit.. Totally concreted heart.
There is a huuuge lack of mothers and fathers in church as general.
Ron should be an elder only in his city. That is it.
I can only criticize and verify what he is teaching and words spoken.
Plus, some feeling about him.
None of blended is my hero or example to follow.
They are rather negative examples of what not to do and what not to say.
First of all lack of repentance and public apology.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Robert

Ok. Once again!

The one of the biggest problem and mistake in LR is , that they talk too much, and teach about details they shouldn't.

Correct! It's called manipulation. It robs the members of their personal liberties. It creates a ruling class that robs the Lord Jesus of His rightful headship. It robs the members of the anointing Spirit teaching us all things.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I mentioned earlier about how Ricky said everything had to be for Christ and the Church. One in a message for the training Ron talked about marriage. He said a mature brother with discernment, feeling and care for the body would know if he should marry someone. Of course, the ftta trainees after they graduate are those who do most of the marrying. Ron shared previously, before the training that men needed to stop being wimps and be men. His idea of being men is going to a brother and saying they're interested in a sister and getting other saints involved. They use the story of Isaac.

So my question is what do you think of the saints getting involved in marriages. Of course, it's usually simple if you're in the church. But, the sister and brother keep it hidden until they stand up Lord's to announce their engagement.

But, if a brother or sister dates and wants to marry someone outside the church it's a big issue. And, it's only a ok if they choose to be a Christian and come into the church and choose this way. For any ftta grads you know the rule on dating. There is none. If you're in your relationship you need to end it for two years. You can't even see or communicate on breaks. If you're engaged prior you have to pause it for two years..

One more thing sister.
Some times this is comic and I am laughing at these stupid words of tired old man.
And in fact, it would be good material for stand up show, if not seriousness of thousands young people being robbed from two years of their life and simply life experiences at work, with family or friends.
This is serious and terrible.
This is brain washing school of WL. Not Bible school.
I have Bible school at home in the morning or in the evening or 3 AM 30 years now.
They rejected my application and thanks God! That was Lord's severeignty.
To read many books of WL I did not have to live and sleep in Anaheim.
Books are books. But studying and memorizing them? Are You kidding me?
Later we have such discussion and confusion in young heads.
No verses from Bible, thousands questions and all symptoms of cult victims.

What they do is Bible must fit to their facts. If not, then sorry for Bible.

Just read Bible a lot. Lord gave me some verses series this morning in Holy Spirit. I did not write it down. But I hope it is there in my spirit and I will note this on paper. It was about Word of God.
For this morning it was for my private enjoyment.
These verses are in Bible. But Lord connected so many in amazing line.
I hope to share somewhere some day...

Conclusion: Forget what is behind, read only Bible like hungry one year, and seek Lord every day.
You will see more things as they are in truth and reality.

[aron]

I want to ask the other side of the question: why do people cooperate?

On the plus side, people often like being told what to do. It eliminates uncertainty.

People feel superior, because they are the True Church who obey. Others who don't cooperate are condemned, at least inferior and to be pitied.

Others are inferior simply because they are not us. For instance, watching 'sisters' get relegated to lesser roles was attractive to me as a 'brother' in the LC. I was automatically elevated, just by being me. Why should I give that up? So I cooperated with an oppressive system, because someone else was getting it worse than me. Weird and illogical, but it works effectively nonetheless. Titus Chu allowed himself to be bullied by Witness Lee, so that earned him the right to return home to Ohio and bully the residents there.

Participants simply come to expect that cooperation is what's right. "Even when the brothers are wrong - cooperate." Somehow God will cover things.

They are convinced to go along because, as bad is it is here (the LC), it's much worse elsewhere. It is the MO of the abuser. Convince the victim that you alone love them, that there's nowhere else to go.

Originally Posted by formermember

Dana Roberts: "I received a call from a woman who was the youth leader and Sunday School Superintendent of Nee's church in Shanghai. She had been present at Nee's trial in 1956. [One of the charges brought against him was licentiousness.] Nee had affairs with two girls she knew in the church. I have also talked to Nee's lawyer. Nee freely admitted it because the police found the pictures. Why didn't the girls leave? Because they believed that all other churches were evil, and they made a pact to confess to God and stay in his true church.

[Zezima]

Curious about this as well.

I was born into it so my belief structure was built for me essentially. What was it like for the first round of believers?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What was it like for the first round of believers?

I got saved in the Jesus Movement, then came into the LC after the first round, so you'll get my perspective from both experiences. In the Jesus Movement, the saying was that "Jesus is the Way". Everything was very simple, and open. No rules, no restrictions. Jesus is the Way. See Acts 24:14 for a reference.

Then, in the Local Church, there was a line from a song, "It may be with us you find a Better Way." Somehow the LC members had discovered a Better Way than Jesus: it was called "Christ and the Church".

Eating drinking breathing Jesus, this was the Better Way. (see the song, "We love the Church Life", esp stanza 3). We found a new door - our human spirit: "Ayyye can exerciiiize myyyy huuuman Spirit!!!" Now, along with this New and Better Way, came constant put-downs of others. "Not many Christians know this" and "not many Christians can see that". All the holidays were time for scorn - Stockings! Easter Bunnies! We all would laugh. So there was joy, but superiority soon followed.

Simultaneously, and little by little we were convinced that everything else was just darkened, there was no where else to go. We were "wrecked, ruined." Like an abusive relationship, by the time you figure out it isn't the paradise you'd first imagined, by the time the first idyllic dreams are dried up and withered away, you're also convinced that there's nothing else. Nobody else would 'love' you, only the abuser. So you stay. Or, you leave, and then come back, convinced that this is all there is.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

So there was joy, but superiority soon followed.

I found this to be a great summary -- Yes, there was great joy, but soon superiority leavened the whole lump.

Let me expand on that with my own story. I had a life-changing salvation experience at home one evening reading a paraphrased NT a friend gave me. Half year later I went to my first LC meeting. Standing to worship the Lord, I was filled with the Spirit like the night I was first saved. Every meeting was glorious, joyful, invigorating, enlightening, refreshing ... add any other adjective you can think of. A month later I went to my first training in Anaheim. So much joy, in fact, after a few days my cigarette addiction was completely gone! What was impossible for me, was easily possible with God!

Before that training Jesus was everything. I told everyone I met. Friends and family were shocked by my change of heart. After that training on Revelations, it was Jesus plus condemnation of the Catholic Church. Looking back, I didn't even realize how much I had changed because I was still so joyful. Slowly over time, however, much of that joy got replaced by superiority, pride, and a critical heart. At first Jesus was everything, then it was Christ and the church, and finally it was mostly about "the ministry."

I haven't seen that kind of joy in the Recovery for decades.

[Zezima]

What is wrong with the Christ and the church focus?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What is wrong with the Christ and the church focus?

If the focus were simply loving and forgiving God’s children, then fine, but the focus was on the non-scriptural “ground of locality,” which creates a prideful arrogance of superiority regarding other believers.

Do you see the difference?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

If the focus were simply loving and forgiving God’s children, then fine, but the focus was on the non-scriptural “ground of locality,” which creates a prideful arrogance of superiority regarding other believers.

If the focus is on the King, then you get the Kingdom and all its relations. If you focus on the Kingdom you get something else. In LC history, "Christ - only Christ" was a ruse, designed to separate believers from the relative safety of the flock. Notice how the songs from that era had "simply" and "just" in them - supposedly all other groups had deadly poisons in them, and unbearable impurities and we were returning to something pure. "Just by calling Jesus, Jesus, Jesus/We're finding its the way".

Now the LC started adding. The Ground. Calling. Drinking. Breathing. The Body. The Ministry. The New Way. God's Economy. All of these practices and concepts completely fabricated according to the temporal exigencies, i.e. whims, of one supposed Christian minister, and only tangentially related to scripture. Pseudo-Christian Cult 101. Works everytime, unfortunately. If you do a Google search of "True Church" and "Restored Church" you'll see a number who've pulled this off.

Suddenly you are in Taipei, getting your sock drawer examined by a Trainer. You have Philip Lee telling you to learn from the Red Guards. You hear of "golden opportunities" to "invest" in "God's present move" which is a for-profit company run by the Lee family.

Jesus is the mediator between God and man. By putting in other things as mediators between us and Jesus, we ended up where we are today. I'll never forget the meeting when the Anaheim contingent showed up with the latest word from the Guru. They had all the so-called elders of the church stand up front, wave their arms in synch, and sing, "PSRP/BNPB makes the eagle fly", to the tune of "Drink! A river pure and clear that's flowing from the throne". You should have seen the faces of the church members. Shock and disgust. But what could you do? It was "the church".

The point of control was/is to build up the Witness Lee guanxi network (WLGN). Once you see that, everything makes perfect sense. There was a purpose in everything. Even the "storms" were terrifically useful - they purged the system of any who weren't absolute for the WLGN.

Originally Posted by aron

But before 1956, the Little Flock had a lot of secular power in China. It's a different reality than what we were fed. Watchman Nee and the Little Flock Movement in Maoist China, by Joseph Tse-Hei Lee. Church History; 2005;74(1)

I learned from this paper that WN had multiple church-related businesses going on, besides what we heard of, the pharmaceutical company run with his brother (!!) and that he was a large land-holder (!!). WL the Disciple learned well from his Teacher. Suddenly WN's post-restoration "Handing Over" phase takes an entirely new cast... and WL, fortified with this discipling experience, went right into the epicenter of the Jesus Movement in S Cal in the late 1960s. It was like shooting fish in a barrel, like taking candy from a baby. All those ignorant hippies, that just wanted Jesus.

[Zezima]

So would you say the LR started out well, then fell off into cult land?

[LeftLR]

Lord's Recovery and LSM only focus / based on the thought process and written messages of Witness Lee.

If anyone bring a non-Recovery version of Bible to attend any LC meeting, you will be told to destroy and burn your non-Recovery Bible.
They will feed you all the messages based on Witness Lee's testimonies / thoughts. I was in Church in Anaheim for a while and personally witness how the leading brothers forced a man how just visiting with a non-Recovery Bible.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Lord's Recovery and LSM only focus / based on the thought process and written messages of Witness Lee.

If anyone bring a non-Recovery version of Bible to attend any LC meeting, you will be told to destroy and burn your non-Recovery Bible.
They will feed you all the messages based on Witness Lee's testimonies / thoughts. I was in Church in Anaheim for a while and personally witness how the leading brothers forced a man how just visiting with a non-Recovery Bible.

This is because the recovery version was translated by the minister of the age. Standing on the shoulders of those before him, witness Lee was given divine revelation concerning the truth that no one in history had ever received. All other translations fall short of this, and miss this critical piece.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Lord's Recovery and LSM only focus / based on the thought process and written messages of Witness Lee.

If anyone bring a non-Recovery version of Bible to attend any LC meeting, you will be told to destroy and burn your non-Recovery Bible.
They will feed you all the messages based on Witness Lee's testimonies / thoughts. I was in Church in Anaheim for a while and personally witness how the leading brothers forced a man how just visiting with a non-Recovery Bible.

This must be a new or hyper-local happening? I never observed people being asked to not bring a non Recovery Version of the Bible to the meeting. We even occasionally used the Amplified Version in my home meetings.

[LeftLR]

Hello HERn,

This was not hyper-local. I also witnessed in one of largest conference in Anaheim. The people said this were very high level within LC and everyone (expect me) agreed and condemn other translation of Bible is bad. One of high level person even added this "Other non-LC organization will be condemn by Lord Jesus and people who follow them will goes to Hell. There is no true salvation expect in LC. We have the highest standard and the purest teaching from Lord Jesus."

[HERn]

Wow! Thanks for sharing. The leaders in the LC have turned the corner into cult-like teachings. I didn’t hear of this back in 2010 and following years.

Is that the teaching that caused you to leave the LC?

[LeftLR]

Hello HERn
One of leading brother told one of my family member, "If You leave local church / Lord's Recovery or attend non-LC's communion, your salvation will be lost and God will not recognize your faith. You will not see your family after this earthly life." -- Where in the Bible teaches this???

Lord's Recovery / LSM does not focus on Bible, their reading materials are based in Witness Lee's interruption. The Holy Word for Morning Revival · HWMR is 100% based on Witness Lee's teaching and its a must read material during Sunday gatherings and every small groups.

[gr8ful]

[Edit: removing double-posted reply]

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by HERn

Wow! Thanks for sharing. The leaders in the LC have turned the corner into cult-like teachings. I didn’t hear of this back in 2010 and following years.

Is that the teaching that caused you to leave the LC?

To be fair, I was in the LC from before the New Way until after 2015 and never heard a leading one in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, California, Oregon, Washington, Canada, the Southeast US, mid-Atlantic seaboard say that salvation is only in the LC or by following WL/LSM. Nor have a read a message transcript of official publication stating this.

I did hear some excited members say that leaving the meetings would result in ruin and also heard Blended Brothers / WL says those who leave or oppose the LC/LSM Ministry end up badly. That's bad enough to be abusive control. Also heard that those who leave won't be overcomers and will be subject to 1000 years outer darkness; this functionally may be the same as "the fear of hell and damnation" to people, but technically is different.

Before accepting as verbatim that leading ones at official conferences now state leaving the LC or LSM Ministry results in damnation and loss of salvation, I would need a direct source in a recording of the message, transcript of the message, or publication of the message containing this language.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

before accepting as verbatim that leading ones at official conferences now state leaving the LC or LSM Ministry results in damnation and loss of salvation, I would need a direct source in a recording of the message, transcript of the message, or publication of the message containing this language.

Here are some..

Life study of Hebrews chapter 52, section 3:
“If you leave the Lord's recovery, you will certainly fall away from the grace of God.

Life-Study of 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, Chapter 15, Section 1:
“This shows that if we touch the recovery and then leave it, we commit spiritual suicide, for we turn away from God’s unique way.”

The Vision of the Age, Chapter 2, Section 6:
“I have seen with my own eyes that those who take the way of the Lord's recovery for a while and then leave do not come to a proper ending. There is only one way.”

Elders' Training, Book 07: One Accord for the Lord's Move, Chapter 4, Section 1:
“Even these dear ones who Left the recovery in a gentlemanly way had their spiritual future damaged.”

Life-Study of 1 Corinthians, Chapter 6, Section 3:
“For a person to be able to leave the recovery means that he has never seen what the recovery is. If you are able to give up the church life, this proves that you have never seen the church.”

Life-Study of Genesis, Chapter 54, Section 3:
“If you Leave the church life, you will be defeated.”

Abraham—Called by God, Chapter 18, Section 2:
“But it is quite a different matter to Leave the church. If you forsake the church, your joy will disappear and will not return until you return to God’s testimony.”

Christ versus Religion, Chapter 2, Section 6:
“From the day you Leave the church life, you begin to lose Christ; the new wine starts to run out”

Life-Study of Ephesians, Chapter 8, Section 4: “Although today's Christianity is a heap of collapse in death and darkness, we in the church life are in life and under light.

The Testimony of Jesus, Chapter 10, Section 4:
“Protestantism is dead and Christless.”

One Body, One Spirit, and One New Man, Chapter 10, Section 3:
“Brothers and sisters, in conclusion I would like to say that if you would like to be a Top Christian, you must be a Christian in the churches of the Lord's recovery”

[HERn]

Thanks Zezima! You did a lot of research. Seems like WL gets very close to saying you can’t be saved if you leave the LC. These statements appear to be psychological control and maybe even spiritual abuse.
-

[UntoHim]

And let us never forget those comforting and reassuring words by the President of The Living Stream Ministry, Benson Phillips:

“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis mine)
-

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

And let us never forget those comforting and reassuring words by the President of The Living Stream Ministry, Benson Phillips:

“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis mine)
-

Not that I don’t believe you, but how can I source that? That’s an incredible quote

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Here are some..
Life study of Hebrews chapter 52, section 3:
“If you leave the Lord's recovery, you will certainly fall away from the grace of God.

This is a very helpful compilation of abusive control through threats of spiritual death before God in published LSM works. Very clear evidence of putting too much emphasis on membership in a small group lead by specific men.

Also, this threatening language is psychologically abusive enough without having to claim there is teaching of eternal damnation and/or loss of salvation if one leaves LSM-aligned Local Churches. Being accurate in reporting prevents counter arguments of "being misrepresented." That's why I think it's important to be precise, here, as well as being fair.

I haven't heard the elders or coworkers say that you can lose your salvation. But I have heard them say that you can lose the joy of the Lord and stop your spiritual growth and actually become spiritual bankrupt. They also said something about losing your spiritual birthright, the bequests of Christ. I don't remember everything . Ron, Ed, Minoru have all given messages on this.

I was recently with a current full timer in the ftta and another saint. He said when he was in the denominations but contacting the church, chose to leave his church because he felt he didn't love God if he didn't leave his church and enter the recovery. The other saint came into the church many years ago and said the same thing when he left the denominations.

Recently, the brothers been asking the saints if they will be one of the 7000 that don't worship Baal. Meaning they remain in the church. I don't remember the rest of the details. All the messages are 90 minutes or more and very hard at times concentrate and follow.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

Thanks Zezima! You did a lot of research. Seems like WL gets very close to saying you can’t be saved if you leave the LC. These statements appear to be psychological control and maybe even spiritual abuse.
-

Not to mention heretical.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

This is a very helpful compilation of abusive control through threats of spiritual death before God in published LSM works. Very clear evidence of putting too much emphasis on membership in a small group lead by specific men.

Also, this threatening language is psychologically abusive enough without having to claim there is teaching of eternal damnation and/or loss of salvation if one leaves LSM-aligned Local Churches. Being accurate in reporting prevents counter arguments of "being misrepresented." That's why I think it's important to be precise, here, as well as being fair.

While not using the word “damnation” some of the quotes paint the same picture.
You will begin to lose Christ, you will be defeated, protestantism is christ-less, fall away from the grace of god, you will not come to a proper ending..

What does it mean to fall away from the grace of God? What does it mean to lose Christ? What is not a proper ending?

All those say to me, that if you leave you are doomed. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

Not to mention heretical.

This. There’s a lot to unpack that is heretical in these statements.

If you’re in the Lord’s Recovery but are scared to leave because of the ministry’s stance toward leaving.. God loves you, He sent his son to die for you, His blood cleanses you from every sin. There are a lot of verses in the Bible that refute everything these statements by LSM are making, but here is one that I hope brings peace to your soul..

Romans 8:38-39
“ And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

And let us never forget those comforting and reassuring words by the President of The Living Stream Ministry, Benson Phillips:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis mine)-

Originally Posted by Zezima

Not that I don’t believe you, but how can I source that? That’s an incredible quote

The source is there at the end of the quote. I just checked online. I think the boys over in Anaheim may of expunged this little ditty from the record.
-

[HERn]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The source is there at the end of the quote. I just checked online. I think the boys over in Anaheim may of expunged this little ditty from the record.
-

Wife and I were at that very meeting and both heard Benson speak those words. They were a bit of a red flag, but because I thought the LC had the right way of meeting I ignored that and other red flags. I think that if Benson’s words cause a “little one” to stumble or shipwreck their faith Benson may incur the Lord’s wrath. Jesus said it would be better to be thrown in the ocean with a millstone (an anchor) around their neck.

If those words were removed from the online publication that is evidence that the blinded brothers control what they want others to read.

Here’s a little test the saints can conduct without incurring the wrath of the blinded brothers; go to the paper Ministry Magazine and compare to the online version. If Benson’s curse is present in the written document but not in the online resource, then someone is controlling what the saints read.

[Paul Vusik]

Just curious if anyone ever noticed the following message every time that you visit their online publications,
(This is from this morning)

Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited.

Your IP address is ************** [4:43:56 AM (GMT -08:00), January 28, 2022].

I never seen this on any other website that I know of, where they display your IP address, and time stamp.

Any clues why they do that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Just curious if anyone ever noticed the following message every time that you visit their online publications,
(This is from this morning)

Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited.

Your IP address is ************** [4:43:56 AM (GMT -08:00), January 28, 2022].

I never seen this on any other website that I know of, where they display your IP address, and time stamp.

Any clues why they do that?

We all have seen that.

Why? Intimidation. Don’t copy their stuff.

Can you imagine if the Apostles were like that?

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

We all have seen that.

Why? Intimidation. Don’t copy their stuff.

Can you imagine if the Apostles were like that?

Lol, I didn’t know selling truth is copyrighted material, or they must be paying high royalties to get it!

I hope they understand that when He comes back, He won’t be accepting refunds at that time!


Just FYI, intimidation doesn’t work on me, especially when it comes to scammers!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

Wife and I were at that very meeting and both heard Benson speak those words. They were a bit of a red flag, but because I thought the LC had the right way of meeting I ignored that and other red flags. I think that if Benson’s words cause a “little one” to stumble or shipwreck their faith Benson may incur the Lord’s wrath. Jesus said it would be better to be thrown in the ocean with a millstone (an anchor) around their neck.

If those words were removed from the online publication that is evidence that the blinded brothers control what they want others to read.

Here’s a little test the saints can conduct without incurring the wrath of the blinded brothers; go to the paper Ministry Magazine and compare to the online version. If Benson’s curse is present in the written document but not in the online resource, then someone is controlling what the saints read.

I heard it from Benson, too. In Houston, more than once.

When Lee spoke his man becomes god theory in Irving, TX, I was there too. I was anxiously waiting for the written version. It left out much of what I had written in my notes.

Edition 1 of a certain Elders Training series was edited in the next edition to eliminate some of his gross remarks.

They are notorious for editing their own manuscripts and republishing.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I heard it from Benson, too. In Houston, more than once.

When Lee spoke his man becomes god theory in Irving, TX, I was there too. I was anxiously waiting for the written version. It left out much of what I had written in my notes.

Edition 1 of a certain Elders Training series was edited in the next edition to eliminate some of his gross remarks.

They are notorious for editing their own manuscripts and republishing.

Nell

Ron Kangas, as WL's editor-in-chief, rose to the top by telling us all in writing "what WL really said."

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

IMHO

Vanity.
Peeps like to feed their vanity.
Slaves to sin....slaves to vanity.

James 4:10
“Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

King James Version (KJV)

Peace like a river...

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by mannaman

IMHO

Vanity.
Peeps like to feed their vanity.
Slaves to sin....slaves to vanity.

James 4:10
“Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

King James Version (KJV)

Peace like a river...

Twas me...didn't realize I was signed out...

[UntoHim]

Good to hear from you manna-man! Don't make yourself so scarce my brother.
-

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Good to hear from you manna-man! Don't make yourself so scarce my brother.
-

Will do brother UntoHim....I will try to become lurkless.😄

[Paul Vusik]

I wasn’t sure in which thread to post this, so I think that this one very much fits the subject matter.

I was doing some writing this week, in relation to the aspects of “Life”. It was a good experience in the sense of what people mean as being alive or enjoying life. One of the aspects that’s I remembered and made me think of making this post is from my experience last year.
My father passed away last February. He was only 64 years old. He started to experience some pain and fever the summer before, and went to the hospital to get it checked up, and was told based on his “symptoms “ he has covid, so he should go home and just stay isolated for 14 days. No further check ups, nothing!
After a month passed, the “symptoms “ didn’t go away, and the doctors didn’t want to give him appointment for further evaluations, until late November.
As all the tests were taken, and the results came in, he was told “ you have stage 4 cancer, there is nothing we can do for you, go home and you have couple of months to live”
I’m sharing this, because I remember it like it was yesterday, when I was in the hospital when he was still “alive”, or considered to be “alive”, even though he was just living because he was hooked up to the ventilator. The nurse said to me the following, “we can keep him alive as long as we want, we control his oxygen intake, we feed him through the IV, we give him the necessary drugs to subdue him, he can’t do nothing on his own!”
I remember thinking, is this still considered a person to be alive? If he can’t absolutely do nothing on his own? Everything is controlled by some man that does and takes away as they see fit? It’s not really life, it’s a form of existence!
As I take that experience and think of my days in recovery, I think of the same thing. Everyone is hooked up to the ventilator, subdued, not asking questions, can’t really function on their own, unless some man puts in some droplets of nutrients in ones IV and adjust the oxygen level to make sure you don’t completely sink into a coma. You are always dependent on some “wise man”, “master operator”, who knows better that you, and for that matter better than everyone else around you on what you need. That can go on forever, as long as one is willfully, ignorantly, subjects himself to that kind of LIFE.
It’s only when God rip off all the connections, all the hookups and operating equipment of you, cuts all the cords, by His mercy and grace, you get out of that bed, and stand on your own two feet! You take a deep breath of air into your lungs, and start seeing the light outside of that hospital room, you realize that there is real LIFE, and He is the Master and the builder of it! He nurtures you, He takes care of you, and going back into that hospital room is not even a possibility under the most dire of circumstances!
That what’s called “LIVE and LIVING” really is. Rather than total and utter control of persons existence and well-being!

[OBW]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

To be fair, I was in the LC from before the New Way until after 2015 and never heard a leading one in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, California, Oregon, Washington, Canada, the Southeast US, mid-Atlantic seaboard say that salvation is only in the LC or by following WL/LSM. Nor have a read a message transcript of official publication stating this.

I did hear some excited members say that leaving the meetings would result in ruin and also heard Blended Brothers / WL says those who leave or oppose the LC/LSM Ministry end up badly. That's bad enough to be abusive control. Also heard that those who leave won't be overcomers and will be subject to 1000 years outer darkness; this functionally may be the same as "the fear of hell and damnation" to people, but technically is different.

I also cannot say that I heard that precise quote. But I was born and raised in Dallas, became associated with the LRC in early 73 (last year of high school), and left 14.5 years later as the New Way was getting underway. And in that time, the one who became president of the LSM did effectively say that very thing in at least one meeting in Dallas.

Of course, local speaking of the local leadership was not generally recorded and sent out at the time. (Maybe some cassettes made available locally for those who missed a meeting, but unlikely cataloged for posterity.) Only Lee or others sent from LA/Anaheim to hold conferences would have been recorded. So there is no solid evidence of precisely what was said and even exactly when it was, though I do have a visual memory of it being in what was referred to as the "little hall" rather than the "big hall." But even that does not define the time frame since strictly local meetings sometimes continued in the little hall even after the big hall was completed.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

I did hear some excited members say that leaving the meetings would result in ruin

I've been out since the early 80s. As I see it, my life would have been more ruined if I'd stayed in.

Originally Posted by gr8ful

]That's bad enough to be abusive control. Also heard that those who leave won't be overcomers ...

Greatly 'over'rated >> "I want so badly to overcome, I'll stay in Lee's LC for ever." << No control attempt applied there.

Originally Posted by gr8ful

and will be subject to 1000 years outer darkness;

Oh knock it off! Think of Stevie Wonder. In blackness [blind], yet a incredible song writer, musician, and singer. A real blessing.

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by Zezima

While not using the word “damnation” some of the quotes paint the same picture.
You will begin to lose Christ, you will be defeated, protestantism is christ-less, fall away from the grace of god, you will not come to a proper ending..

What does it mean to fall away from the grace of God? What does it mean to lose Christ? What is not a proper ending?

All those say to me, that if you leave you are doomed. Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying.

Let me clarify what seems to be unclear in what I wrote, if I can. I am being precise; there is an absolute difference between eternal damnation and 1000 years of outer darkness as described by adherents to the theory held in TLR.

I was asking for supporting documentation that someone said / wrote that eternal salvation was only for those in the Lord's Recovery / Local Churches.

Of course I agree that the 1000 year punishment theory and the "loss of Christ's presence" (today) is used as a control mechanism on adherent's behavior. This is well established. But linking eternal salvation to faithfulness in a group / towards a publisher ... this would be an advance of the decline since I last attended meetings and would be a significant development worth noting.

While the effect of linking 1000 years reward to faithful membership in the LC/TLR may have the same controlling effect as those who deny salvation to people outside their own groups, these are not precisely the same thing. Confusing them only gives ground for others to say, "See, these people are confused; we never said ...". Precision, here in a public forum, is essential.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

While the effect of linking 1000 years reward to faithful membership in the LC/TLR may have the same controlling effect as those who deny salvation to people outside their own groups, these are not precisely the same thing. Confusing them only gives ground for others to say, "See, these people are confused; we never said ...". Precision, here in a public forum, is essential.

Well if by "precision" you mean truth, I would agree. And so long as one holds Witness Lee and Benson Phillips to the very same standard of precision and truth I would absolutely agree.

Witness Lee plainly and clearly stated that he was the only person on earth speaking as God's oracle since 1945.

Benson Phillips plainly and clearly stated that the only way a Christian can enter the process of sanctification is in the Local Church of Witness Lee, and that no person who has ever left the Local Church of Witness Lee has ever become a great spiritual person on earth.

How's that for precision? And how's that for giving young people and new Christians the strong impression that their salvation is on the line if they dis Witness Lee, or if they have even the slightest idea of defecting from the Lord's Recovery? Just sayin...

-

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

And how's that for giving young people and new Christians the strong impression that their salvation is on the line if they dis Witness Lee, or if they have even the slightest idea of defecting from the Lord's Recovery?

Sorry if it seems that I am not taking gr8ful's point. I totally agree that we should be as precise and accurate as possible here on the forum. However, many of us know that Witness Lee and his followers have played fast and loose with quite a number of biblical words and terms. They use the same vocabulary as orthodox Christians, but many times there is an insider or proprietary meaning to certain words and terms.

For example, when they use the word "church" they are almost always referring to The Local Church/Lord's Recovery/LSM churches. Yet when they are called on it, the average Local Churcher will say something like "oh, we don't mean to say that our church is the only church, we are just saying that we don't take a name!" Or they give a really mealy-mouthed answer like when Andrew Yu told the Bible Answer Man "We don't say that we're the only church, we are saying that we are only the the church!"

So when the President of the Living Stream Ministry, Mr. Benson Phillips, says that "the process of sanctification is only taking place in the Local Church" (close paraphrase) it gives a very strong impression, especially to younger people and new Christians, that membership in the Local Church of Witness Lee is absolutely a salvation issue. For those who are older and more mature, it probably is not a salvation issue, but when these kind of statements are made from the podium from prominent ministry leaders, it has an affect on all the LC members and even the general Christian public.
-

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Life study of Hebrews chapter 52, section 3:
“If you leave the Lord's recovery, you will certainly fall away from the grace of God.

Life-Study of 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon, Chapter 15, Section 1:
“This shows that if we touch the recovery and then leave it, we commit spiritual suicide, for we turn away from God’s unique way.”

The Vision of the Age, Chapter 2, Section 6:
“I have seen with my own eyes that those who take the way of the Lord's recovery for a while and then leave do not come to a proper ending. There is only one way.”

Elders' Training, Book 07: One Accord for the Lord's Move, Chapter 4, Section 1:
“Even these dear ones who Left the recovery in a gentlemanly way had their spiritual future damaged.”

Life-Study of 1 Corinthians, Chapter 6, Section 3:
“For a person to be able to leave the recovery means that he has never seen what the recovery is. If you are able to give up the church life, this proves that you have never seen the church.”

Life-Study of Genesis, Chapter 54, Section 3:
“If you Leave the church life, you will be defeated.”

Abraham—Called by God, Chapter 18, Section 2:
“But it is quite a different matter to Leave the church. If you forsake the church, your joy will disappear and will not return until you return to God’s testimony.”

Christ versus Religion, Chapter 2, Section 6:
“From the day you Leave the church life, you begin to lose Christ; the new wine starts to run out”

Life-Study of Ephesians, Chapter 8, Section 4: “Although today's Christianity is a heap of collapse in death and darkness, we in the church life are in life and under light.

The Testimony of Jesus, Chapter 10, Section 4:
“Protestantism is dead and Christless.”

One Body, One Spirit, and One New Man, Chapter 10, Section 3:
“Brothers and sisters, in conclusion I would like to say that if you would like to be a Top Christian, you must be a Christian in the churches of the Lord's recovery”

Dead and christless, lose christ, defeated, not come to a proper ending, fall away from God’s Grace, death and darkness.

None of those words used to describe the result of leaving are talking about the 1000 year discipline.

If you’re saved, how can you lose Christ?
If you’re saved, how can you be dead and christless?
If you’re saved, how can you be defeated?
If you’re saved, how can you fall away from Gods Grace?
If you’re saved, how can you not come to a proper ending?

Your salvation is secure in Jesus Christ, not the Christian group you meet with. Salvation isn’t dependent on anything else but Jesus. Yet all these quotes say your salvation and your relationship with God is dependent on if you’re in the Recovery.

The Recovery is claiming that they are the instrument required for you to continue on as a Christian, and for your salvation to be secured.

[LeftLR]

Here are some of words I heard ....

If you are not "baptized" and "Saved" within Lord's Recovery, your salvation does not count and Jesus will not recognize you.
Based on what i have been told by many leading people within LSM in Anaheim,

"those who call themself Christians but not in LR, they are not saved by God and they are going to the hell"
Those who not in Lord's Recovery, they are enemies of Lord Jesus.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Here are some of words I heard ....

If you are not "baptized" and "Saved" within Lord's Recovery, your salvation does not count and Jesus will not recognize you.
Based on what i have been told by many leading people within LSM in Anaheim,

"those who call themself Christians but not in LR, they are not saved by God and they are going to the hell"
Those who not in Lord's Recovery, they are enemies of Lord Jesus.

Wow, that place keeps getting crazier and crazier. I never heard these words in the Ohio LC’s.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

It’s part of the overall tactic of undue influence. Cults aren’t bad by definition. Cults that practice undue influence will rob peoples cognitive abilities. This gives the leaders more money, free labor, marketing, and less accountability. It’s called a high control group for a reason. I’d highly recommend looking in the work of Steve Hassan and his BITE model for evaluating groups.

Why do they want control? In the past few trainings and conferences the speaker have been saying don't do this or that. And use stories from the Bible to scare and warn you.

Another thing is that alot of saints, and the ministry preaches that you're heavenly, chosen and priestly people. So you should separate and cut most things off. I don't need to go into detail as many have heard it before.

I believe that we are becoming God in life and nature. But the question is, is that memorizing the complete bible along with the ministry?

[Bible-believer]

2Pet. 2:1-3 KJV

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Acts 2:44-45
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.


When reading the book of Acts this morning, 2:44-46 came to me, then I recalled your post "point of control, what do they want?"
It's religious Communism. I heard of this "term" long before but never linked it to LSM. But just now, I was thinking if Lee adopted what he experienced in China Communism.

Just an FYI, for all that post here. The LSM has updated their online publications website, which as of today will require a SUBSCRIPTION to access the full version of all books and publications. So website like this, that has links to quotes, will no longer function. Please be aware of this.

They might have a special coming up on 4th of July weekend, so be on the look out to get in cheap while you can.

[UntoHim]

In the United States, copyright rights are limited by the doctrine of "Fair Use,"
under which certain uses of copyrighted material for, but not limited to,
criticism, commentary, news reporting,
teaching, scholarship, or research may be considered fair.
~
https://support.google.com/legal/answer/4558992?hl=en

-
-

If LSM wants to limit the ability of the public to link quotes,
then that is THEIR PROBLEM, THE ONUS IS ON THEM.
LSM has absolutely no control or authority
to limit or regulate the terms of Fair Use.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Buyer beware!

Just an FYI, for all that post here. The LSM has updated their online publications website, which as of today will require a SUBSCRIPTION to access the full version of all books and publications. So website like this, that has links to quotes, will no longer function. Please be aware of this.

They might have a special coming up on 4th of July weekend, so be on the look out to get in cheap while you can.

Looks like you can access the life study’s still.

Interesting development, I wonder why they no longer will provide it for free.

[I tell the truth]

You can't even do group texts anymore when sending ministry. Well you can but they say your conscience will convict you. So you need to text each person individually. Our region received a email from LSM. And we had a regional discussion.

[Trapped]

Buyer beware! - thanks for swinging by and letting us know. I'm rolling my eyes about it but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Zezima - the reason they are not providing it for free is.....money, money, money, money. When the only source of your merchandise died 25 years ago, and you have a stagnant pool of adherents, and you label and condemn everyone else who might join, there are a shrinking number of ways for them to continue to profit off of it!

At a minimum they just got guaranteed that all localities will create an account. Instant, recurring money. Then many saints will have to create an account so they can print off copies of excerpts for their home meetings so they don't have to make new ones buy the ministry they are reading that week, etc... And many other saints will make an account because it's LSM and that's just what they do - whatever LSM says. One of the last redeeming actions of LSM (providing something for free, even if it is poison) just got monetized.

I tell the truth - I have noticed that when saints post ministry excerpts on Facebook, this is a little tongue in cheek, but it's like the citation is almost as long as the excerpt. Like name, publisher, address, year, title, location, website, etc..... I simply get the impression that they are scared to do otherwise. Pretty sad.

Is there any way for you to post/attach the email from LSM you referenced without it identifying you in any way? No pressure if not.

Trapped

[I tell the truth]

Only the coworkers and elders got the email. Then we had a discussion after one of the conferences regarding it. I think either a few saints told on other saints to lsm. Or those saints went to LSM and asked. Regardless, they were I guess admonished. And, they then told saints that they kept repenting to God.

Messed up situation if you ask. Who really cares about the copyright in this situation.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Buyer beware! - thanks for swinging by and letting us know. I'm rolling my eyes about it but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Zezima - the reason they are not providing it for free is.....money, money, money, money. When the only source of your merchandise died 25 years ago, and you have a stagnant pool of adherents, and you label and condemn everyone else who might join, there are a shrinking number of ways for them to continue to profit off of it!

At a minimum they just got guaranteed that all localities will create an account. Instant, recurring money. Then many saints will have to create an account so they can print off copies of excerpts for their home meetings so they don't have to make new ones buy the ministry they are reading that week, etc... And many other saints will make an account because it's LSM and that's just what they do - whatever LSM says. One of the last redeeming actions of LSM (providing something for free, even if it is poison) just got monetized.

$8 a month or $80 a year, not a lot of revenue to be had. It’s an interesting move no doubt. It’s like when they added that giant 30 foot tv advertising ministry books at the conference center in anaheim.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

$8 a month or $80 a year, not a lot of revenue to be had. It’s an interesting move no doubt. It’s like when they added that giant 30 foot tv advertising ministry books at the conference center in anaheim.

I believe there are at least 1,500 localities around the world....I think? $96*1,500 = ~$150,000. If you assume at least 5 saints from each locality get it on top of that, on average, that's over $750,000 in addition. They'll probably get around $1 million per year from it, is my guess.

I'm presuming this isn't some massively profitable venture, but just whatever they can do to offset what are probably waning book sales. They've backed themselves into a corner with only one finite pool to draw from......

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I believe there are at least 1,500 localities around the world....I think? $96*1,500 = ~$150,000. If you assume at least 5 saints from each locality get it on top of that, on average, that's over $750,000 in addition. They'll probably get around $1 million per year from it, is my guess.

I'm presuming this isn't some massively profitable venture, but just whatever they can do to offset what are probably waning book sales. They've backed themselves into a corner with only one finite pool to draw from......

My wishful thinking is that they are trying to lockdown the outflow of their content.. seeking more control because people are waking up to their nonsense.. but most likely an odd money grab.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

My wishful thinking is that they are trying to lockdown the outflow of their content.. seeking more control because people are waking up to their nonsense.. but most likely an odd money grab.

No, I agree with you there too. The more their "ministry" is readily available to be quoted, the more they can get exposed. If they control who can access their ministry, they can better prevent anyone from speaking up. Sounds like a plus plus situation to me.....money and control. What a shock.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

$8 a month or $80 a year, not a lot of revenue to be had. It’s an interesting move no doubt. It’s like when they added that giant 30 foot tv advertising ministry books at the conference center in anaheim.

30 foot TV at their $30 million LaPalma Campus? And to think of all the $$ I gave them over the years. This is not a “ministry” but just peddling the word of God for base gain. Took all my money and then quarantined me for complaining about it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

No, I agree with you there too. The more their "ministry" is readily available to be quoted, the more they can get exposed. If they control who can access their ministry, they can better prevent anyone from speaking up. Sounds like a plus plus situation to me.....money and control. What a shock.

Sounds like the end of “Witness Wednesday.”

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

30 foot TV at their $30 million LaPalma Campus?

Yeah, before a training message and in between, they have it turned on displaying ads for different books.

Originally Posted by Buyer beware!

Just an FYI, for all that post here. The LSM has updated their online publications website, which as of today will require a SUBSCRIPTION to access the full version of all books and publications. So website like this, that has links to quotes, will no longer function. Please be aware of this.

They might have a special coming up on 4th of July weekend, so be on the look out to get in cheap while you can.

Wow, Wow, Wow!!!

How interesting is this development. How can we be The Gods Expression on earth by these kind of behavior?

I went to the site just to see it for myself, and noticed this note on the bottom of the page:

“Note: We hope that many will benefit from these spiritual riches. However, for the sake of avoiding confusion, we ask that none of these materials be downloaded or copied and republished elsewhere, electronically or otherwise. Living Stream Ministry retains full copyright on all these materials and hopes that our visitors will respect this.”

Avoiding confusion? I thought that we are a part of the most clear visions and revelations on this planet earth? How can many benefit from this? Jesus gave spiritual riches at no cost, and we are doing this? I smell a rat.

Someone must of hacked their servers and did this, because I can no longer process this kind of cruelty by the Almighty God. I cannot believe myself that I fell for this, what a miserable situation. Should have listened to my mother that always said, “by their fruits you will know them”. That rings oh so true in this very instance.

[Nell]

What do they want? Witness Lee was a worshipper of knowledge. He taught an expanded version of his knowledge of the Scriptures and he taught his followers the same. We were formerly his students too.

So I'm not much on dreams, but here's one I had on the way out the door a long time ago. I dreamed I was in the really big meeting hall in Irving. Sitting in a circle near the "back" of the hall were sisters. They were sewing denim jeans which were for sale. (I know...it's a dream, but hard to miss the parallel.) The verse came to me "You have made my Father's house a house of merchandise." Then I woke up.

At the time, there was a large presence of the Living Stream Ministry with books being printed downstairs in that hall. There was a significant presence of volunteers "serving the ministry". Members would travel from all over the area, mostly Texas and Oklahoma (to my knowledge), to "serve".
It's undeniable that the LSM is a house of merchandise.

So this "subscription" for money is a continuation of the worship of knowledge as taught by Lee. You can only consume so much printed merchandise. Now the move is toward controlling the digital merchandise.

Here's an interesting discourse by someone Lee used to quote--G. H. Pember in Earth's Earliest Ages, pp. 32-33.
Originally published in 1876

"And it is to be observed that God never, since the fall of Man, revealed anything to gratify a mere thirst for knowledge; but only such matters as may sufficiently illustrate His everlasting power and Godhead; our own fallen condition with its remedy of unfathomable love; and the promise of a speedy deliver deliverance from sin, a complete restoration to His favor, and a never-ending life of perfect obedience and perfect joy.

Knowledge in this life is a gift fraught with peril: for our great task here is to learn the lesson of absolute dependence upon God, and entire submission to His will. His dealings with us now are to the end that He may withdraw us from our own purpose, and hide pride from us (Job 33:17).

But knowledge, unless it be accompanied by a mighty outpouring of grace, causes undue elation. It was the vision of knowledge which filled the breast of our first parent with impious aspirations, and made her follow the tempter in hoping to be as God. ...

...Except by special grace, man seems incapable of bearing the slightest weight of power upon his shoulders without losing his balance.

So, Discombobulated, "How can we be The Gods Expression on earth by these kind of behavior?" Easy answer: "we can't".

Nell

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like the end of “Witness Wednesday.”

In Their Dreams!
-

[manoel_463]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In Their Dreams!
-

You can't bring down a hierarchy that easy.
It started with Watchman Nee
Hope it works, I'm using google translator
here is from Brazil

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

No, I agree with you there too. The more their "ministry" is readily available to be quoted, the more they can get exposed. If they control who can access their ministry, they can better prevent anyone from speaking up. Sounds like a plus plus situation to me.....money and control. What a shock.

If you conduct a word search, “read the ministry” you will find quotes that talk about the need for saints to read the ministry. Now the ministry is locked up behind a paywall. I wonder if there will be a Martin Luther type moment with the recovery.

[LeftLR]

Originally Posted by Zezima

If you conduct a word search, “read the ministry” you will find quotes that talk about the need for saints to read the ministry. Now the ministry is locked up behind a paywall. I wonder if there will be a Martin Luther type moment with the recovery.

Paywall is one of many methods how LSM / LR making money from those who believe in WL. LSM / LR also making money from the "dead", selling grave-site to LR followers and claim that they will be with witness lee in heaven and "fellowship with WL together." Those who has been with LR in Anaheim know what is this mean.

This just another method how LR controls their followers, i personally knew few people who left LR after been in for over 20 years, from their sharing about LR, it is very scary how LR control their believers and brain-wash them to a point that many family has been broken. LR / LSM does not care about the Truth of Gospel.

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Paywall is one of many methods how LSM / LR making money from those who believe in WL. LSM / LR also making money from the "dead", selling grave-site to LR followers and claim that they will be with witness lee in heaven and "fellowship with WL together." Those who has been with LR in Anaheim know what is this mean.

Is there any public info or proofs of ownership of grave sites or spots next to Witness Lee?
Or sale of them?
Just curious, because as far as I know he is buried in Rose Hills Memorial Park & Mortuary, in Whittier, CA. That property is owned by Service Corporation International (SCI) and not by LSM. My only guess is that they probably pre-purchased thousands of grave site there and now reselling them? Is that the deal?
I’m not from that area, or haven’t been around back then to know what’s up. I heard about this once before, but could never corroborate the information.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Buyer Beware!

Is there any public info or proofs of ownership of grave sites or spots next to Witness Lee?
Or sale of them?
Just curious, because as far as I know he is buried in Rose Hills Memorial Park & Mortuary, in Whittier, CA. That property is owned by Service Corporation International (SCI) and not by LSM. My only guess is that they probably pre-purchased thousands of grave site there and now reselling them? Is that the deal?
I’m not from that area, or haven’t been around back then to know what’s up. I heard about this once before, but could never corroborate the information.

This probably has the most info you will find: https://www.graceterrace.com/

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Buyer Beware!

Is there any public info or proofs of ownership of grave sites orspots next to Witness Lee?
Or sale of them?
Just curious, because as far as I know he is buried in Rose Hills Memorial Park & Mortuary, in Whittier, CA. That property is owned by Service Corporation International (SCI) and not by LSM. My only guess is that they probably pre-purchased thousands of grave site there and now reselling them? Is that the deal?
I’m not from that area, or haven’t been around back then to know what’s up. I heard about this once before, but could never corroborate the information.

This doesn’t answer your question but you might find this public website, Find a Grave, helpful in your search for information.
Nell

Originally Posted by Trapped

This probably has the most info you will find: https://www.graceterrace.com/

Thank you for the link Trapped.

Kind of disturbing about the whole thing. What’s up with the names? Are they really expecting Jesus to come thru the Hill of Resurrection? The Gathering Place? Mind blowing.
Cloud of Witnesses sounds chilling as well. Didn’t know I was being transformed into a Witness.

Sounds like they purchased 2.5 acres of that cemetery, and spent a lot of money to develop it, and even went as far as to relocate Lee to this plot after it was completed. They had about 3500 grave sites available at its inception.

Thank you guys for some references.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

This doesn’t answer your question but you might find this public website, Find a Grave, helpful in your search for information.
Nell

Interesting. In the ffta, they take the 2nd year’s on a field trip to Elden hall and this spot. They also only let 4th term trainees visit witness Lee resident in ball road… which is kinda museum now.

[Nell]

Buyer Beware!

Please register for forum membership if you plan to continue posting your very informative and helpful information. Forum membership will add your posts to the main board immediately. As a "guest" your posts will continue to be added to the queue for review and approval.

We hope you will hang around for awhile and join up!

Nell
Admin/Moderator

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This probably has the most info you will find: https://www.graceterrace.com/

Trapped--thanks for this creepy link.

Do you think all this attention to Lee, after his death, could be a form of the Chinese practice of ancestor worship? I understand that Lee's remains were relocated to Grace Terrace from the original location at Rose Hills, and FindAGrave has not been updated.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Trapped--thanks for this creepy link.

Do you think this could be a form of the Chinese practice of ancestor worship? I understand that Lee's remains were moved to Grace Terrace from the original location at Rose Hills.

Nell

Creepy is right. Did you watch that opening video? That drone footage looks like it is following the path of a snake, over the cliff, into the abyss, and under the careful scrutiny of some Buddhist temple on an adjacent hill.

They're cloaking a total money grab with such flowery spiritual-sounding subterfuge, "gateway sepulchre in resurrection to the coming city," says WL himself. Who actually believes that being buried close to the decayed remains of Witness Lee himself benefits them in this life and the one to come?

Don't tell me about Jacob requesting that his bones be buried back in the good land, or Abraham buying some cave. Is there a single verse in the New Testament that supports this scam? Did any of the Apostles get such a burial plot?

What happened to these idiots at LSM? They used to mock all those Christian ministries that promoted scams like this -- now they do the same. And worse.

[I tell the truth]

So the training has started. No matter what book they crystalize it comes out to the same message. They are doing 1 and 2 Kings.

That they are now the ministers of the age, with the ministry of the age and with the vision of the age which is to produce and become overcomers. To do this they must deny and let God annihilate the flesh, they must give up and deny the world, defeat Satan, and pass through death and into resurrection.

I noticed that they like to use the old testament as types to prove a point. They said Amalch is a type of our flesh which has to be destroyed. In later messages they will touch on how Jezebel is a type of the Catholic Church.

What I have noticed in my many years is that they're very secluded and confident. They never hold back, each speaker can never go a message without mentioning a WL story. EM, said we are hidden today but one day soon we will be revealed as the sons God. He also made kind of a corny joke that instead of independence day we need to have dependence day everyday with God.

I'll keep you all updated and post if I have any questions.

[GraceAlone]

Thanks for the update. I am genuinely curious (in a bewildered way) as to how the saints can keep attending these events and claiming they’re getting “a fresh speaking.” The themes, messages, outline points and stories seem incredibly redundant.

They also seem increasingly strident and reflective of a bunker mentality. Saints, here are 101 ways you’re probably not doing it right! Or 102 things that are out to get you and cost you the kingdom!!

On a brighter note, the more extreme and biblically sloppy the rhetoric, the more chances saints have to start waking up and taking notice. One friend of mine, for example, once had a clear “wait, WHAT?!” moment during one of those messages that shook him fully awake, drove him to check what he’d heard against the text of the Bible, and was the push he needed toward the exit. Let’s pray for truth to triumph this week and more to be set free.

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

So the training has started. No matter what book they crystalize it comes out to the same message. They are doing 1 and 2 Kings.

That they are now the ministers of the age, with the ministry of the age and with the vision of the age which is to produce and become overcomers. To do this they must deny and let God annihilate the flesh, they must give up and deny the world, defeat Satan, and pass through death and into resurrection.

I noticed that they like to use the old testament as types to prove a point. They said Amalch is a type of our flesh which has to be destroyed. In later messages they will touch on how Jezebel is a type of the Catholic Church.

What I have noticed in my many years is that they're very secluded and confident. They never hold back, each speaker can never go a message without mentioning a WL story. EM, said we are hidden today but one day soon we will be revealed as the sons God. He also made kind of a corny joke that instead of independence day we need to have dependence day everyday with God.

I'll keep you all updated and post if I have any questions.

[alwayscurious]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

On a brighter note, the more extreme and biblically sloppy the rhetoric, the more chances saints have to start waking up and taking notice. One friend of mine, for example, once had a clear “wait, WHAT?!” moment during one of those messages that shook him fully awake, drove him to check what he’d heard against the text of the Bible, and was the push he needed toward the exit. Let’s pray for truth to triumph this week and more to be set free.

What was your friend's "AHA" moment?

Talking about an AHA moments, quiet few years back I attended a conference, and in one of the messages given by Ron, he said something like, “a man need to learn from their wives how to be a female and the wife, because in heaven we will be a wife, so we might as well start learning now”. Not an exact quote, but the point was made this way (I wish I had an audio of it). I haven’t attended a conference or a training since then. Lunatic talk.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Creepy is right. Did you watch that opening video? That drone footage looks like it is following the path of a snake, over the cliff, into the abyss, and under the careful scrutiny of some Buddhist temple on an adjacent hill.

They're cloaking a total money grab with such flowery spiritual-sounding subterfuge, "gateway sepulchre in resurrection to the coming city," says WL himself. Who actually believes that being buried close to the decayed remains of Witness Lee himself benefits them in this life and the one to come?

Don't tell me about Jacob requesting that his bones be buried back in the good land, or Abraham buying some cave. Is there a single verse in the New Testament that supports this scam? Did any of the Apostles get such a burial plot?

What happened to these idiots at LSM? They used to mock all those Christian ministries that promoted scams like this -- now they do the same. And worse.

I think the quote used in that video is taken out of context, and there’s nothing on the website that ties it directly to LSM. I’ve never heard of the cemetery being pushed onto the saints either, but I could have just not heard it. Overall it seems like a beautiful place to lay a loved one to rest. Especially if you have your life to that community.

Originally Posted by Zezima

I think the quote used in that video is taken out of context, and there’s nothing on the website that ties it directly to LSM. I’ve never heard of the cemetery being pushed onto the saints either, but I could have just not heard it. Overall it seems like a beautiful place to lay a loved one to rest. Especially if you have your life to that community.

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

BUYER BEWARE!

This is your final post as an unregistered guest...no more approvals. Please register for Forum Membership by sending an email request to: Reg4LCD@Gmail.com. The Username Buyer Beware! is available.

Thank you for your participation...excellent input.

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Trapped--thanks for this creepy link.

Do you think all this attention to Lee, after his death, could be a form of the Chinese practice of ancestor worship? I understand that Lee's remains were relocated to Grace Terrace from the original location at Rose Hills, and FindAGrave has not been updated.

Nell

“The significance of Chinese ancestor worship changed over time. It began as a social expectation. After all, even today many non-religious people still revere their loved ones who’ve passed on to some degree. They may not believe their loved ones’ souls exist in an afterlife, but they still believe it’s important to show them respect by tending to their graves.

However, as Chinese ancestor worship became more religious in nature, so did its significance.

For instance, according to traditional Chinese beliefs, when a person died, part of their soul faced judgment before the 10 Magistrates of Hell. This involved a period of suffering before their soul could travel to a more pleasant afterlife. Only on rare occasions did someone live so virtuously that they skipped the suffering period.”
https://www.joincake.com/blog/chinese-ancestor-worship/

That last paragraph kind of reminds me of a doctrine we know all too well.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

Talk about descriptive versus prescriptive!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

Talk about insanity!

Show me one verse or one of the apostles who followed Lee’s teaching.

And if WL really believed this nonsense, why did he have the saints build him such a “good home” on Ball Road in Anaheim, which btw has now become a museum of sorts.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Talk about descriptive versus prescriptive!

Yup. Classic descriptions gone amuck.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

Yeah I’m all for calling out the strange interpretations, but this is just taken out of context. The whole section which you selectively picked a paragraph from is talking about living for the resurrection and not worrying much about this life. It has nothing to do with buying a nice grace site. Much like the video on grace terrace site, you too are talking this out of context.

[Recovering]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

What was your friend's "AHA" moment?

@alwayscurious, I'm pretty sure @GraceAlone was referring to me and my experience in the Crystallization Study of Job in the message on the two trees. I posted about it here.


Since then, I've started thinking about it in terms of this picture, which at first might look like a young woman in a fur looking away from you, but then turns into an old hag in a sudden change of perspective. In that meeting I had a sudden change of perspective. Somehow I had managed to rationalize that message of "good can be distracting" spinning it as a message of don't forget to love the Lord in the midst of your good works. That was the sophisticated young woman in a fur. Then the brother said that "good can be somewhat worse than evil because it's deceptive", and later in response I heard at least two different brothers say something along the lines of "I'm so glad God doesn't want me to try to be a good husband, because I just can't." and it seemed to be an excuse to double down on reading life studies and going to meetings instead of doing the hard work of tending a marriage. That's when I started to "see the hag" and began to really notice the fruit of that kind of teaching everywhere.

[UntoHim]

Excellent post Recovering! Very helpful to all concerned.
Just to let you know, the link you provided does not work.
Here is the link to the post you are referring to:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...927#post100927
-
-

[LeftLR]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Yeah I’m all for calling out the strange interpretations, but this is just taken out of context. The whole section which you selectively picked a paragraph from is talking about living for the resurrection and not worrying much about this life. It has nothing to do with buying a nice grace site. Much like the video on grace terrace site, you too are talking this out of context.

Between 2006 to 2009, I have been told and/or heard from many core LSM / LC high ranking people about getting a spot in grace terrace site is very important and this will ensure "we can / will see WL and continue with The Message of Gospel." They are many "hard-cored" LC followers getting deep discount for a spot on grace terrace site, but interesting enough, if you choice the spot closer to WL, the higher price is. For the Lee's family residence on Ball Rd, one side is for his family and the other side is kept locked as "museum" for WL.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Between 2006 to 2009, I have been told and/or heard from many core LSM / LC high ranking people about getting a spot in grace terrace site is very important and this will ensure "we can / will see WL and continue with The Message of Gospel." They are many "hard-cored" LC followers getting deep discount for a spot on grace terrace site, but interesting enough, if you choice the spot closer to WL, the higher price is. For the Lee's family residence on Ball Rd, one side is for his family and the other side is kept locked as "museum" for WL.

Strange fire.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

Between 2006 to 2009, I have been told and/or heard from many core LSM / LC high ranking people about getting a spot in grace terrace site is very important and this will ensure "we can / will see WL and continue with The Message of Gospel." They are many "hard-cored" LC followers getting deep discount for a spot on grace terrace site, but interesting enough, if you choice the spot closer to WL, the higher price is. For the Lee's family residence on Ball Rd, one side is for his family and the other side is kept locked as "museum" for WL.

Where is Philip Lee buried? By all accounts he was an unsaved fleshly degenerate. Yet he was WL’s “closest and most trusted co-worker.” Is Philip now close enough to his daddy to secure a place in the kingdom of God?

[LeftLR]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where is Philip Lee buried? By all accounts he was an unsaved fleshly degenerate. Yet he was WL’s “closest and most trusted co-worker.” Is Philip now close enough to his daddy to secure a place in the kingdom of God?

I do not know where / who is Philip Lee, but one thing I know for sure, Jesus's earthly grave is empty, because He has been overcome the death and He is with the God. I do not know where is witness lee, his gave is not empty, he did not overcome the death.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by LeftLR

I do not know where / who is Philip Lee, but one thing I know for sure, Jesus's earthly grave is empty, because He has been overcome the death and He is with the God. I do not know where is witness lee, his gave is not empty, he did not overcome the death.

The late Philip Lee was one of Witness Lee’s sons. Another was Timothy. John Ingalls tastefully documented the grossly sinful behavior (few details) of PL in his book Speaking the Truth in Love which is posted in pdf on this forum. Arguably the biggest/worst scandal in Local Church history…occurring in the Living Stream headquarters office.

Nell

[I tell the truth]

Ok. Sorry for the delay in the updates of the training. It's been a lot of the same that we have heard for years, not matter what the book. WL has been called the minister of the age and this ministry the one of the age. Ron said if you come in from Christianity and have had some kind of position the leaven has to be purged. We can't forget about mentioning of the natural man and flesh. Minoru said everything of your old man is utterly useless and will be rejected by the church if you attempt to keep it.

Once again the local localities have been mentioned as the only churches and the expression and enlargement. I don't need to mention everything many of you have all heard it. As always a few corny jokes. Ron said that Moses was God's expression and the acting God. And that he had a 80 year term of the FTTA. James said that Jesus trained His disciples for 40 days and that we should instead now make trainings 40 days.


The training is on Kings so there is a lot of talk of being dealt with, trained, transformed and becoming a army. Alot of talk of how you are like unbelievers and Christians but different. That you can have a family, job, etc. But not other things and don't love your family or job more than Christ and the Church.

Also, you can't forget that every speaker has to mention a WL or WN story each message.

I had to add something after tonight's message. The message was on grafting. I wanted to ask all of you if God gives us freewill, then why does the recovery focus so much on God being out life and strongly influencing on choice? Ricky said that we need to listen to the Spirit and most of what He tells us is no. No to our phone, no to what we are about to say and no to what we are about to do. Also that we are constantly under God's judgement. And that we are also under self judgement as we Amen God's judgement. Further, if we are asked to serve or if we want to serve we need to see we are unable and unworthy.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

Ok. Sorry for the delay in the updates of the training. It's been a lot of the same that we have heard for years, not matter what the book. WL has been called the minister of the age and this ministry the one of the age. Ron said if you come in from Christianity and have had some kind of position the leaven has to be purged. We can't forget about mentioning of the natural man and flesh. Minoru said everything of your old man is utterly useless and will be rejected by the church if you attempt to keep it.

Once again the local localities have been mentioned as the only churches and the expression and enlargement. I don't need to mention everything many of you have all heard it. As always a few corny jokes. Ron said that Moses was God's expression and the acting God. And that he had a 80 year term of the FTTA. James said that Jesus trained His disciples for 40 days and that we should instead now make trainings 40 days.

The training is on Kings so there is a lot of talk of being dealt with, trained, transformed and becoming a army. Alot of talk of how you are like unbelievers and Christians but different. That you can have a family, job, etc. But not other things and don't love your family or job more than Christ and the Church.

Also, you can't forget that every speaker has to mention a WL or WN story each message.

I had to add something after tonight's message. The message was on grafting. I wanted to ask all of you if God gives us freewill, then why does the recovery focus so much on God being out life and strongly influencing on choice? Ricky said that we need to listen to the Spirit and most of what He tells us is no. No to our phone, no to what we are about to say and no to what we are about to do. Also that we are constantly under God's judgement. And that we are also under self judgement as we Amen God's judgement. Further, if we are asked to serve or if we want to serve we need to see we are unable and unworthy.

I tell the truth,

Thanks once again for your helpful update of what's being spoken at the training.

Regarding your question you added to your post about free will and God's influence, if you read the first few chapters in Genesis (not the ministry, but the actual Bible), you'll see that God put the first man in the garden and.......gave him a WHOLE LOT of choices. Meaning, a lot of things he was free to choose from. God made a big garden and filled it with a variety of trees, and told Adam he was "free to eat" of every single tree except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God has given man much more freedom and free will to choose and enjoy good things than the ministry will ever present to you. Instead, the ministry labels all those good things as bad, death, rebellious, etc., thus making their own little group the only acceptable thing left.

So in much of our lives, we are given the freedom to make our own responsible choices and then accept the consequences of those choices. Of course we have the Bible as guideposts, and I would also agree with Ricky that the Holy Spirit is our guide too. I would also personally agree with Ricky that often what we hear is "no". This doesn't mean we never get a "yes". What this means is that we may have many pathways as options, all of which are good, okay, and acceptable, and we have the freedom to choose, AND to be perfectly honest, we might not get some kind of "internal registration" about that. In other words, we don't get some audible "yes", some visible green light, some clouds parting showing us the way. We have free will to choose how we see fit. But what we DO hear sometimes, are the no's, the red lights, the darkening skies.

Do you get the difference? In the Recovery, it's like a "no" means "no", but "nothing" also means "no". And then this produces scenarios where you cannot do anything unless you specifically get a "yes" or "a leading" or "a shining" or "the peace"......when that doesn't typically happen for most things. The reality is "nothing" simply means you have not gotten a "no" and you should feel free in Christ to continue on until you get a "no", if you even ever get a "no". The former is paralyzing via anxiety, the latter can, ironically, be paralyzing in it's freedom. But it's a freedom in Christ.

Like in the local church, everything is a red light unless you get explicit green from God. But God has actually pre-given us many, many green lights, and we can continue on freely until we get a red. Two fundamentally different environments. And we already know ahead of time what many of the "reds" are - anything contrary to His commandments in the Bible.

Others may disagree with me on this, and I won't be bothered by their disagreement. I am sure that there are plenty of believers who have gotten some "yes" or "peace" or "leading". I think all I'm trying to say is we don't have to explicitly get a green every time we take a step in order to be able to take that step.

I also do not agree with this "we are unable" business. Of course, God created everything and gave us all our competencies and abilities and gifts and talents. But it's a disservice to these abilities and gifts God has given us to consider that we are "unable". Of course we are able - God has made us able! It's like the local church wants to keep people immature, underdeveloped, incompetent, and useless, while God wants mature, sober-minded people who will use and develop what God has graciously given them. It's a radical difference between the two. We can be able and still recognize that it is God who gave us the ability and point to Him as the source of the abilities He has given us.

Any child who grows up and becomes an adult while still unable to take any steps without getting explicit permission from their parents, or that considers him/herself to be "unable" to do things is a useless adult. The same goes for us and God. The local church tends to lump different kinds of "independences" together, conflating the two. Being a mature adult able to discern consequences and able to make good choices does NOT mean you are independent from God in the sense of being rebellious and turning your back on God. We are to grow up in Christ! But of course we always know that all things came from God and we exist for God, and that all things came through Jesus, and we live through Jesus (1 Cor. 8:6).

It's interesting, that chapter in 1 Corinthians 8 starts out speaking that way - that we exist for God and we live through Christ.....I mean, you can't get much more dependent than that.....but then the chapter goes on to describe mature believers who possess knowledge that allows them to not be stumbled by trivial things such as idols. See how you can be mature and steadfast and have knowledge that allows you to discern and not be stumbled, and yet none of that means you are "acting independently" from God? The local church somehow keeps people in a state of immaturity.

Anyway, all that was kind of all over the place. Hopefully at least a sliver of it helped somewhere.

Trapped

[Nell]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

... I wanted to ask all of you if God gives us freewill, then why does the recovery focus so much on God being out life and strongly influencing on choice? Ricky said that we need to listen to the Spirit and most of what He tells us is no. No to our phone, no to what we are about to say and no to what we are about to do. Also that we are constantly under God's judgement. And that we are also under self judgement as we Amen God's judgement. Further, if we are asked to serve or if we want to serve we need to see we are unable and unworthy.

I read a quote awhile back that said something like "The way to tell how great a leader is, is to see how much freedom he gives to those who follow him." I can't remember who said it, but it makes a lot of sense.Contrast our great God with Witness Lee and those in leadership in the Local Churches. Compare with an "arranged marriage" vs. a couple who mutually choose to marry each other out of love, respect, honor, etc.

The Local Church focuses on its practice of revoking the freewill which was given to us by God and calling it "recovery". How is overruling what God freely gave us "recovery", much less the "Lord's recovery"?

This revoking of the freewill of man is the only means possible for the Local Church leadership to control its membership. The Local Church leadership doesn't teach listening to the Holy Spirit. It teaches "listen to me/Lee" and I'll tell you what the Holy Spirit is, or isn't, saying. Trapped is right. The Local Church teachings insure that you never mature in Christ. When I was "there", I found it much easier and simpler to follow the Lord than to follow the elders in the Local Church.

Nell

What is the reason to control? What is gained by these elders and leaders?
Do they gain more $$? Do they buy mansions with all their deceitfully earned $$?
NO. Nothing is really gained. That is why accusations of control among the blended brothers, or elders, or some full-time serving ones is from the pits of hell. The accuser of the brethren labors with those who are evil, hate Witness Lee and the local churches to belittle and put them down due to their dislike. Don't you think some of the blended brothers can have their own ministry, write books using scripture, and could have a large following?? Of course they can write their own publications and gain a large following. But they choose to "be small", take the cross and endeavor to be the "testimony of Jesus". We are not the only church, but we are only the church!!

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where is Philip Lee buried? By all accounts he was an unsaved fleshly degenerate. Yet he was WL’s “closest and most trusted co-worker.” Is Philip now close enough to his daddy to secure a place in the kingdom of God?

Do you also mock David for his great sin? do you also mock Solomon for his evil acts of fornication and idolatry after Jehovah appeared to him 2 times? Your attitude needs to be judged and looked at by God and shown in the light to you. You have a lot of boldness living in darkness, but that is just my opinion. Go and build the Body of Christ and stop your fleshly complaining!!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is the reason to control? What is gained by these elders and leaders?
Do they gain more $$? Do they buy mansions with all their deceitfully earned $$?
NO. Nothing is really gained. That is why accusations of control among the blended brothers, or elders, or some full-time serving ones is from the pits of hell. The accuser of the brethren labors with those who are evil, hate Witness Lee and the local churches to belittle and put them down due to their dislike. Don't you think some of the blended brothers can have their own ministry, write books using scripture, and could have a large following?? Of course they can write their own publications and gain a large following. But they choose to "be small", take the cross and endeavor to be the "testimony of Jesus". We are not the only church, but we are only the church!!

Unregistered poster--
If you plan to continue to post on the forum, to avoid guessing if 2 "unregistered" posts are from the same person (the combative tone is a big clue!), we ask that you register for forum membership. Please send an email to Reg4LCD@gmail.com and with your request, include your desired username.
BTW I deleted your 2nd post in response to Ohio. Please see the Forum Mission Statement and Rules.
--Thanks

Just to clarify...there is only one church. We (including you) are part of it. We are all members of HIS church which HE will build...if we will only get out of His way. Also, we are your brothers and sisters in Christ. We are His testimony. We are witnesses to the conduct of the Local Church leadership. We surely know what we are talking about...first hand.

Like you, we wondered for years (many still wonder), what does the "eldership" gain from their control over us? Some of us suffered untold damage, upheaval, pain, disappointment and...control.. from the Local Church leadership. Our walk with the Lord was usurped. Many have not yet recovered from their experiences of walking with the "elders" in the "recovery", and come to this forum seeking help...instead of rebuke.

Some of what we experienced was unbearable, so we left. Each of us has a story to tell and a testimony of our experience. I personally want to always testify to the Lord's faithfulness to me over the years, and to testify to others that the Lord is faithful to everyone who seeks his mercy and grace to follow him out of the Local Church or any other abusive situation.

We wish you all the best.

Nell
Admin/Moderator

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I read a quote awhile back that said something like "The way to tell how great a leader is, is to see how much freedom he gives to those who follow him." I can't remember who said it, but it makes a lot of sense.Contrast our great God with Witness Lee and those in leadership in the Local Churches. Compare with an "arranged marriage" vs. a couple who mutually choose to marry each other out of love, respect, honor, etc.

Nell

Reminds me of that 80’s signature song by The Police, “I’ll Be Watching You.” People thought it was a love song, even heard it at a wedding. Actually the song was about a stalker.

Such became of LC “love.”

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Reminds me of that 80’s signature song by The Police, “I’ll Be Watching You.” People thought it was a love song, even heard it at a wedding. Actually the song was about a stalker.

Such became of LC “love.”

It's a creepy commercial now for DuckDuckGo aiming at Google for watching/tracking all Google users.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Don't you think some of the blended brothers can have their own ministry, write books using scripture, and could have a large following?? Of course they can write their own publications and gain a large following. But they choose to "be small", take the cross and endeavor to be the "testimony of Jesus".

“If you stay in the recovery, you enjoy the blessing. If you stay outside the recovery, there is nearly no blessing.” - Witness Lee

[I tell the truth]

Yes, if you stay in the recovery you receive the blessing, keep the presence of God and can possibly be part of the building. However, before you can be built a be a part you need to become the precious materials but that involves a process they say. The crucified and resurrected Christ needs to build Himself into you.

It's not that easy though. Our our nature needs to go because it contradicts God and is sinful. It's a process and this is where grafting comes in. We need to be cut off from our old nature where it dies and God imparts Himself into us resurrection. Also, our old man is nailed to the cross and needs to stay there. If we do anything not of Christ but in our old man it means we got off the cross. Also that we won't let Christ be expressed we are being our our God and head.

This is probably what alot of people in the church think of you who left. That you are self boasting, self approving, prideful,etc. And, this is because you refuse to be under God's judgement to be stripped, dealt with and suffer. When you should be losing your old man and gaining God while calling on His name and reading and praying His world while this is happening.

You start as materials, then cut stones and then living stones. Minoru said Christianity is not building up God's house and temple but a man's work because they don't know or wont accept that they're flesh and are not worthy but death and burial. Nell, as you said earlier yes we are all part of the body. But, Minoru shared in his message that everyone outside the recovery isn't in the right place to build the house, doesn't know how and therefore isn't. One recurring thing for all the coworkers is that they so easily say worthless, poor and pitiful as if that's what God thinks of those outside the Church.

Ed's early message said each message we can't say we heard and know everything. Because if we do congratulations let's have a funeral for you. Instead, we need to be open to learn and have a fresh appreciation.

Just keeping everyone updated what is being spoken.

Adding something about Flesh, Lee said he wished he could cover himself completely because he is flesh and it's sinful.

Originally Posted by Zezima

“If you stay in the recovery, you enjoy the blessing. If you stay outside the recovery, there is nearly no blessing.” - Witness Lee

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

Minoru said Christianity is not building up God's house and temple but a man's work because they don't know or wont accept that they're flesh and are not worthy but death and burial. Nell, as you said earlier yes we are all part of the body. But, Minoru shared in his message that everyone outside the recovery isn't in the right place to build the house, doesn't know how and therefore isn't. One recurring thing for all the coworkers is that they so easily say worthless, poor and pitiful as if that's what God thinks of those outside the Church.

Ed's early message said each message we can't say we heard and know everything. Because if we do congratulations let's have a funeral for you. Instead, we need to be open to learn and have a fresh appreciation.

This is nothing new, it’s sad that such spiritual abuse is being experienced by many believers trapped in the recovery. When it’s all you know, why would you not believe this stuff?

Christian churches in my city are the light on a hill, they are feeding the poor, helpings the widowed, preaching the Bible, worshiping God, taking communion, baptizing, and healing addictions. No one is bashing other groups but encouraged for the work God is doing through them in our city. “You will recognize them by their fruits”. Jesus says come to me, he doesn’t say come to the recovery.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Do you also mock David for his great sin? do you also mock Solomon for his evil acts of fornication and idolatry after Jehovah appeared to him 2 times? Your attitude needs to be judged and looked at by God and shown in the light to you. You have a lot of boldness living in darkness, but that is just my opinion. Go and build the Body of Christ and stop your fleshly complaining!

Unregistered,

If this is your first time posting, welcome to the forum! Although your comment above was deleted, I'd like to respond to it, because I see the "David and Solomon" thing brought up so, so many times as if it is some kind of ace in the hole, show-stopping argument.

The blindingly obvious difference between David and Solomon versus what is being spoken of here on this forum is that David and Solomon are shown to have acknowledged their sins and repented. In contrast, no such thing happened in the Lord's Recovery by Witness Lee or his immoral sons.

What did John the Baptist preach in Mark 1?

Mark 1:4
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

...repentance for the forgiveness of sins...

Repentance is kind of the lynch pin. This is kind of Forgiveness 101. If you want to be forgiven, you need to repent.

Did Witness Lee or his sons acknowledge and repent for their immorality and their covering of immorality? No! So they are not let off the hook.

And the "they are no longer alive" argument doesn't work either because the behaviors and tactics that Witness Lee used to cover things up and to justify protecting sexually immoral and extraordinarily predatory and damaging behavior ARE INGRAINED IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY TO THIS DAY. He used twisted and false biblical justification for his evil behavior. He taught things opposed to the Bible which have been passed on to the co-workers and leading brothers and who now apply those same tactics to similar situations all throughout the Lord's Recovery, causing an unbelievably bloody, tear-filled, and in too many cases, suicide-littered path behind them.

If you think that those who continue to hold an unrepentant and sin-protecting system accountable are the ones in darkness......I'm afraid that only serves to show you that the serious situation I described above has actually directly affected your own life, perceptions, and conscience. Please, unregistered, stick around and continue the discussion. You are being deceived by many, many false and unbiblical doctrines that are packed full of flowery and ear-tickling words that are so well packaged as to make you think you are receiving something pure, when it is really one of the most leavened systems out there. Please come back and participate. If you are right and we are wrong, then you should have nothing to fear by participating.......right?

Trapped

[Nell]

Good points Trapped.

I was reading through Acts and came to chapter 15. I came up with some questions that I would like to throw out for your consideration. Specifically,

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Here's my unauthorized "version" of Acts 15:1 A certain man, Witness Lee, came from China and taught the brothers, Christians in America: "except you follow my ministry, my words, you are not in the true church."

2 Then after a time of obeying Witness Lee's words, an uproar of no small dissension and disputation rose up among those who once followed Lee. They began to question Lee and his elders regarding their behavior and, regarding Lee's interpretation of scriptures, etc., for they indeed began to call their sect a "recovery". A discussion forum was set up by certain others to confront Lee's elders about this question, for Lee himself had passed some 25 years hence.
...
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Elders of Lee, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.That is, it is needful to require Lee's followers, Christian believers, to cut themselves off from many things including their families, friends and other Christian believers. Elders of Lee led their brothers and sisters without grace but with condescending tones and critiques to control the believers to keep the law of Lee.

6 And those who follow this forum discussion came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, many rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, forum members and followers, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the by the mouth of God, all Christians should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knows the hearts of men, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto those followers of Lee.
9 put no difference between us and them, purifying all hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why, ye elders of Lee, why put a yoke upon the neck of the followers of Jesus? ...which, by the way, neither you--nor we--are able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, built up in the one true Church by Jesus himself, even as they.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence... .


Adapted by Nell

Originally Posted by Trapped

And the "they are no longer alive" argument doesn't work either because the behaviors and tactics that Witness Lee used to cover things up and to justify protecting sexually immoral and extraordinarily predatory and damaging behavior ARE INGRAINED IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY TO THIS DAY. He used twisted and false biblical justification for his evil behavior. He taught things opposed to the Bible which have been passed on to the co-workers and leading brothers and who now apply those same tactics to similar situations all throughout the Lord's Recovery, causing an unbelievably bloody, tear-filled, and in too many cases, suicide-littered path behind them.

If you think that those who continue to hold an unrepentant and sin-protecting system accountable are the ones in darkness......I'm afraid that only serves to show you that the serious situation I described above has actually directly affected your own life, perceptions, and conscience. Please, unregistered, stick around and continue the discussion. You are being deceived by many, many false and unbiblical doctrines that are packed full of flowery and ear-tickling words that are so well packaged as to make you think you are receiving something pure, when it is really one of the most leavened systems out there. Please come back and participate. If you are right and we are wrong, then you should have nothing to fear by participating.......right?

Trapped

Hello Trapped,

Are you a former church kid? Just by reading your post, I can hear and see the pain of the “church life” over-pouring through your writing. Talked to quite a few former church kids, they all have the same kind of pain that bleeds through even when they are trying to do their best not to show it. I’m just guessing I say. Maybe wrongly.

There is only one way that those who continue all these abuses will be brought to justice even in our lifetime, and that’s by having more and more victims speaking out. Unless that hidden life of the system will be brought out to light, these men will continue to exploit their prey. Whoever this individual is that wrote this post you referring to, or the other post here, is probably a man with a bunch of skeletons in his closet, who can’t and won’t allow any light in the room. This kind of personal vitriol, is the outright expression of what Jesus said, that “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks”. This has permeated in this movement going back for decades, even to the beginning. In order to make oneself feel righteous in their eyes, they step all over people and attack those who call out their hypocrisy.

I very much doubt that this individual has the b@^^s to face the music, especially when it comes to responding to your words, and if what you said can be backed up by real facts (which can probably be found written and spoken by real people, here and elsewhere). It’s a one way street when it comes to them, you ether running people over or you are being run over by them.

Wish you well, and may God raise more people to speak out for the broken, and the afflicted.

To the moderator,
I noticed there is registration process to post here. Maybe eventually I will do so, but I just can’t right now. Please have a bit of grace at this time for me, if possible. I’m not interested in daily or even weekly posting, but I might check in once in the while.
Thanks

Not sure what happened, but the last post that was addressed to Trapped was written by me, but showed up as unregistered. Not sure if that can be corrected. Thanks

Thanks for clarifying. The username on the previous post was "Unregistered". You changed it to "Onlooker" on this post.

Moderator

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

Hello Trapped,

Are you a former church kid? Just by reading your post, I can hear and see the pain of the “church life” over-pouring through your writing. Talked to quite a few former church kids, they all have the same kind of pain that bleeds through even when they are trying to do their best not to show it. I’m just guessing I say. Maybe wrongly.

There is only one way that those who continue all these abuses will be brought to justice even in our lifetime, and that’s by having more and more victims speaking out. Unless that hidden life of the system will be brought out to light, these men will continue to exploit their prey. Whoever this individual is that wrote this post you referring to, or the other post here, is probably a man with a bunch of skeletons in his closet, who can’t and won’t allow any light in the room. This kind of personal vitriol, is the outright expression of what Jesus said, that “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks”. This has permeated in this movement going back for decades, even to the beginning. In order to make oneself feel righteous in their eyes, they step all over people and attack those who call out their hypocrisy.

I very much doubt that this individual has the b@^^s to face the music, especially when it comes to responding to your words, and if what you said can be backed up by real facts (which can probably be found written and spoken by real people, here and elsewhere). It’s a one way street when it comes to them, you ether running people over or you are being run over by them.

Wish you well, and may God raise more people to speak out for the broken, and the afflicted.

To the moderator,
I noticed there is registration process to post here. Maybe eventually I will do so, but I just can’t right now. Please have a bit of grace at this time for me, if possible. I’m not interested in daily or even weekly posting, but I might check in once in the while.
Thanks

Hi Onlooker,

You got it Yes, I am a former church kid. I have also talked to a bunch of church kids, and see the same thing. They are just "not doing well". And there are so many thick layers and facets to that phrase it's unbelievable.

I agree that victims and the wounded members need to speak up, but unfortunately the local church's typical response is tantamount to additional abuse/victimization and gaslighting, and many former members simply are not strong enough for the fight, and the leading brothers know it. Many of the leading brothers know what they are doing. And because of their evil and unrighteous ways targeting those who know and speak the truth, they get away with it. (Even though they are not actually getting away with anything, but simply God's wrath is additionally being stored up against them.)

But for now, although this may seem counterintuitive, I am okay with this situation because the fact that victims are NOT speaking out means that maybe for the first time they are.......prioritizing taking care of themselves first. The local church chopped them up and tossed them in the trash, the local church told them God only loved the Christ in them but not actually they themselves, and now in NOT speaking up, the former members in pain have realized that their own care and healing and recovery is more important right now. They realize they matter, maybe for the first time in their life. So that's a good thing.

But long-term, as people get healed, they do need to speak up and be willing to have their name dragged through the mud because they know what the truth is, and the small-minded, immature, petty name-calling that the local church leaders think is "so effective" will only serve to further dig their own Witness Lee laden graves. Just like there are now many, many videos and blogs and social media pages out there now about groups like Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientology or any number of other problematic groups, so I have no doubt that over time the same thing will happen for the Lord's Recovery. The Lord's Recovery is a lesser known group compared to some others, and so the sheer volume of people willing to speak out doesn't quite seem to be there yet. There are a lot of former church kids out there, and a lot of non-church kid former members too, that are unmoored, devastated, and without a direction because everything that gave them direction for their whole life turned out to be a sophisticated and deceptive lie. The local church hurts people and destroys families and wrecks lives, and that message needs to get out there.

I also agree with your comments about the state of mind of the other poster. I had written a response that detailed out all the ways their posts pointed directly to the way cults operate or the way cults train their members to think (or not think), but abandoned it because ultimately I felt like the "ear to hear" probably wasn't there. Ironically I think when people post in that way, they are actually probably so terrifyingly aware of the lies they are carrying, that that kind of post is just a form of a coping mechanism. The "lashing out" carries enough decibels that it drowns out their conscience, and so they feel temporarily assuaged.

Thanks so much for your kind words and well wishes. It means a lot. All the best to you.

Trapped

Originally Posted by Trapped

Hi Onlooker,

You got it Yes, I am a former church kid. I have also talked to a bunch of church kids, and see the same thing. They are just "not doing well". And there are so many thick layers and facets to that phrase it's unbelievable.

I agree that victims and the wounded members need to speak up, but unfortunately the local church's typical response is tantamount to additional abuse/victimization and gaslighting, and many former members simply are not strong enough for the fight, and the leading brothers know it. Many of the leading brothers know what they are doing. And because of their evil and unrighteous ways targeting those who know and speak the truth, they get away with it. (Even though they are not actually getting away with anything, but simply God's wrath is additionally being stored up against them.)

But for now, although this may seem counterintuitive, I am okay with this situation because the fact that victims are NOT speaking out means that maybe for the first time they are.......prioritizing taking care of themselves first. The local church chopped them up and tossed them in the trash, the local church told them God only loved the Christ in them but not actually they themselves, and now in NOT speaking up, the former members in pain have realized that their own care and healing and recovery is more important right now. They realize they matter, maybe for the first time in their life. So that's a good thing.

But long-term, as people get healed, they do need to speak up and be willing to have their name dragged through the mud because they know what the truth is, and the small-minded, immature, petty name-calling that the local church leaders think is "so effective" will only serve to further dig their own Witness Lee laden graves. Just like there are now many, many videos and blogs and social media pages out there now about groups like Jehovah's Witnesses or Scientology or any number of other problematic groups, so I have no doubt that over time the same thing will happen for the Lord's Recovery. The Lord's Recovery is a lesser known group compared to some others, and so the sheer volume of people willing to speak out doesn't quite seem to be there yet. There are a lot of former church kids out there, and a lot of non-church kid former members too, that are unmoored, devastated, and without a direction because everything that gave them direction for their whole life turned out to be a sophisticated and deceptive lie. The local church hurts people and destroys families and wrecks lives, and that message needs to get out there.

I also agree with your comments about the state of mind of the other poster. I had written a response that detailed out all the ways their posts pointed directly to the way cults operate or the way cults train their members to think (or not think), but abandoned it because ultimately I felt like the "ear to hear" probably wasn't there. Ironically I think when people post in that way, they are actually probably so terrifyingly aware of the lies they are carrying, that that kind of post is just a form of a coping mechanism. The "lashing out" carries enough decibels that it drowns out their conscience, and so they feel temporarily assuaged.

Thanks so much for your kind words and well wishes. It means a lot. All the best to you.

Trapped

Trapped,
I agree with you on your points, and you are very welcome. I wasn’t planning to post anything that day, it kind of came out of nowhere. So, keep up the fight and speak the truth!

Unrelated to this, but speaking of church kids,

I was going through some archives this week, and was looking at some footage of a video that I found awhile back, and it still hasn’t been taken down. It might be hard for some to hear and re-live the past, especially watching young people experiencing total indoctrination sessions at the hands of the local church. These people were never the same after going through this, and I’m not sure if it’s still done this way now. Just seeing people copying WL jesters and mimics, where some completely lose their mind, just creepy. How about those marching themes and military exercises, something I saw on TV recently, done by the people of North Korea. Even the hail to WL is there, I seen that somewhere before. Any ideas how many of these people are still in the local church or even alive?


HIGHLIGHTS OF THE 1987 HIGH SCHOOL TRAINING IN IRVING | 8-17-87 (PART ONE)
https://www.bitchute.com/video/NAxEE66W0VOE/