What is the point of control? What do they want?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Buyer Beware!

Is there any public info or proofs of ownership of grave sites or spots next to Witness Lee?
Or sale of them?
Just curious, because as far as I know he is buried in Rose Hills Memorial Park & Mortuary, in Whittier, CA. That property is owned by Service Corporation International (SCI) and not by LSM. My only guess is that they probably pre-purchased thousands of grave site there and now reselling them? Is that the deal?
I’m not from that area, or haven’t been around back then to know what’s up. I heard about this once before, but could never corroborate the information.

This probably has the most info you will find: https://www.graceterrace.com/

Originally Posted by Trapped

This probably has the most info you will find: https://www.graceterrace.com/

Thank you for the link Trapped.

Kind of disturbing about the whole thing. What’s up with the names? Are they really expecting Jesus to come thru the Hill of Resurrection? The Gathering Place? Mind blowing.
Cloud of Witnesses sounds chilling as well. Didn’t know I was being transformed into a Witness.

Sounds like they purchased 2.5 acres of that cemetery, and spent a lot of money to develop it, and even went as far as to relocate Lee to this plot after it was completed. They had about 3500 grave sites available at its inception.

Thank you guys for some references.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This probably has the most info you will find: https://www.graceterrace.com/

Trapped--thanks for this creepy link.

Do you think all this attention to Lee, after his death, could be a form of the Chinese practice of ancestor worship? I understand that Lee's remains were relocated to Grace Terrace from the original location at Rose Hills, and FindAGrave has not been updated.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Trapped--thanks for this creepy link.

Do you think this could be a form of the Chinese practice of ancestor worship? I understand that Lee's remains were moved to Grace Terrace from the original location at Rose Hills.

Nell

Creepy is right. Did you watch that opening video? That drone footage looks like it is following the path of a snake, over the cliff, into the abyss, and under the careful scrutiny of some Buddhist temple on an adjacent hill.

They're cloaking a total money grab with such flowery spiritual-sounding subterfuge, "gateway sepulchre in resurrection to the coming city," says WL himself. Who actually believes that being buried close to the decayed remains of Witness Lee himself benefits them in this life and the one to come?

Don't tell me about Jacob requesting that his bones be buried back in the good land, or Abraham buying some cave. Is there a single verse in the New Testament that supports this scam? Did any of the Apostles get such a burial plot?

What happened to these idiots at LSM? They used to mock all those Christian ministries that promoted scams like this -- now they do the same. And worse.

[I tell the truth]

So the training has started. No matter what book they crystalize it comes out to the same message. They are doing 1 and 2 Kings.

That they are now the ministers of the age, with the ministry of the age and with the vision of the age which is to produce and become overcomers. To do this they must deny and let God annihilate the flesh, they must give up and deny the world, defeat Satan, and pass through death and into resurrection.

I noticed that they like to use the old testament as types to prove a point. They said Amalch is a type of our flesh which has to be destroyed. In later messages they will touch on how Jezebel is a type of the Catholic Church.

What I have noticed in my many years is that they're very secluded and confident. They never hold back, each speaker can never go a message without mentioning a WL story. EM, said we are hidden today but one day soon we will be revealed as the sons God. He also made kind of a corny joke that instead of independence day we need to have dependence day everyday with God.

I'll keep you all updated and post if I have any questions.

[GraceAlone]

Thanks for the update. I am genuinely curious (in a bewildered way) as to how the saints can keep attending these events and claiming they’re getting “a fresh speaking.” The themes, messages, outline points and stories seem incredibly redundant.

They also seem increasingly strident and reflective of a bunker mentality. Saints, here are 101 ways you’re probably not doing it right! Or 102 things that are out to get you and cost you the kingdom!!

On a brighter note, the more extreme and biblically sloppy the rhetoric, the more chances saints have to start waking up and taking notice. One friend of mine, for example, once had a clear “wait, WHAT?!” moment during one of those messages that shook him fully awake, drove him to check what he’d heard against the text of the Bible, and was the push he needed toward the exit. Let’s pray for truth to triumph this week and more to be set free.

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

So the training has started. No matter what book they crystalize it comes out to the same message. They are doing 1 and 2 Kings.

That they are now the ministers of the age, with the ministry of the age and with the vision of the age which is to produce and become overcomers. To do this they must deny and let God annihilate the flesh, they must give up and deny the world, defeat Satan, and pass through death and into resurrection.

I noticed that they like to use the old testament as types to prove a point. They said Amalch is a type of our flesh which has to be destroyed. In later messages they will touch on how Jezebel is a type of the Catholic Church.

What I have noticed in my many years is that they're very secluded and confident. They never hold back, each speaker can never go a message without mentioning a WL story. EM, said we are hidden today but one day soon we will be revealed as the sons God. He also made kind of a corny joke that instead of independence day we need to have dependence day everyday with God.

I'll keep you all updated and post if I have any questions.

[alwayscurious]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

On a brighter note, the more extreme and biblically sloppy the rhetoric, the more chances saints have to start waking up and taking notice. One friend of mine, for example, once had a clear “wait, WHAT?!” moment during one of those messages that shook him fully awake, drove him to check what he’d heard against the text of the Bible, and was the push he needed toward the exit. Let’s pray for truth to triumph this week and more to be set free.

What was your friend's "AHA" moment?

Talking about an AHA moments, quiet few years back I attended a conference, and in one of the messages given by Ron, he said something like, “a man need to learn from their wives how to be a female and the wife, because in heaven we will be a wife, so we might as well start learning now”. Not an exact quote, but the point was made this way (I wish I had an audio of it). I haven’t attended a conference or a training since then. Lunatic talk.

[Recovering]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

What was your friend's "AHA" moment?

@alwayscurious, I'm pretty sure @GraceAlone was referring to me and my experience in the Crystallization Study of Job in the message on the two trees. I posted about it here.


Since then, I've started thinking about it in terms of this picture, which at first might look like a young woman in a fur looking away from you, but then turns into an old hag in a sudden change of perspective. In that meeting I had a sudden change of perspective. Somehow I had managed to rationalize that message of "good can be distracting" spinning it as a message of don't forget to love the Lord in the midst of your good works. That was the sophisticated young woman in a fur. Then the brother said that "good can be somewhat worse than evil because it's deceptive", and later in response I heard at least two different brothers say something along the lines of "I'm so glad God doesn't want me to try to be a good husband, because I just can't." and it seemed to be an excuse to double down on reading life studies and going to meetings instead of doing the hard work of tending a marriage. That's when I started to "see the hag" and began to really notice the fruit of that kind of teaching everywhere.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Creepy is right. Did you watch that opening video? That drone footage looks like it is following the path of a snake, over the cliff, into the abyss, and under the careful scrutiny of some Buddhist temple on an adjacent hill.

They're cloaking a total money grab with such flowery spiritual-sounding subterfuge, "gateway sepulchre in resurrection to the coming city," says WL himself. Who actually believes that being buried close to the decayed remains of Witness Lee himself benefits them in this life and the one to come?

Don't tell me about Jacob requesting that his bones be buried back in the good land, or Abraham buying some cave. Is there a single verse in the New Testament that supports this scam? Did any of the Apostles get such a burial plot?

What happened to these idiots at LSM? They used to mock all those Christian ministries that promoted scams like this -- now they do the same. And worse.

I think the quote used in that video is taken out of context, and there’s nothing on the website that ties it directly to LSM. I’ve never heard of the cemetery being pushed onto the saints either, but I could have just not heard it. Overall it seems like a beautiful place to lay a loved one to rest. Especially if you have your life to that community.

Originally Posted by Zezima

I think the quote used in that video is taken out of context, and there’s nothing on the website that ties it directly to LSM. I’ve never heard of the cemetery being pushed onto the saints either, but I could have just not heard it. Overall it seems like a beautiful place to lay a loved one to rest. Especially if you have your life to that community.

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

BUYER BEWARE!

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Thank you for your participation...excellent input.

Nell

Originally Posted by Nell

Trapped--thanks for this creepy link.

Do you think all this attention to Lee, after his death, could be a form of the Chinese practice of ancestor worship? I understand that Lee's remains were relocated to Grace Terrace from the original location at Rose Hills, and FindAGrave has not been updated.

Nell

“The significance of Chinese ancestor worship changed over time. It began as a social expectation. After all, even today many non-religious people still revere their loved ones who’ve passed on to some degree. They may not believe their loved ones’ souls exist in an afterlife, but they still believe it’s important to show them respect by tending to their graves.

However, as Chinese ancestor worship became more religious in nature, so did its significance.

For instance, according to traditional Chinese beliefs, when a person died, part of their soul faced judgment before the 10 Magistrates of Hell. This involved a period of suffering before their soul could travel to a more pleasant afterlife. Only on rare occasions did someone live so virtuously that they skipped the suffering period.”
https://www.joincake.com/blog/chinese-ancestor-worship/

That last paragraph kind of reminds me of a doctrine we know all too well.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

Talk about descriptive versus prescriptive!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Talk about descriptive versus prescriptive!

Yup. Classic descriptions gone amuck.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

Talk about insanity!

Show me one verse or one of the apostles who followed Lee’s teaching.

And if WL really believed this nonsense, why did he have the saints build him such a “good home” on Ball Road in Anaheim, which btw has now become a museum of sorts.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

“ In Genesis 23, verse 6 speaks of the “choice” sepulcher, referring to the best sepulcher. When the Lord Jesus was on earth, He did not have a good dwelling place. But after He died, He was put into a very good burying place (Matt. 27:57-60). He lived in a poor home, but He was buried in a rich tomb. In the Bible, this is a principle. We should not live in a good home, but we should prepare the best tomb. Abraham paid more attention to the sepulcher than to the tent. (Life Study of Genesis, msg 59, pp. 786 )”

Yeah I’m all for calling out the strange interpretations, but this is just taken out of context. The whole section which you selectively picked a paragraph from is talking about living for the resurrection and not worrying much about this life. It has nothing to do with buying a nice grace site. Much like the video on grace terrace site, you too are talking this out of context.

[LeftLR]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Yeah I’m all for calling out the strange interpretations, but this is just taken out of context. The whole section which you selectively picked a paragraph from is talking about living for the resurrection and not worrying much about this life. It has nothing to do with buying a nice grace site. Much like the video on grace terrace site, you too are talking this out of context.

Between 2006 to 2009, I have been told and/or heard from many core LSM / LC high ranking people about getting a spot in grace terrace site is very important and this will ensure "we can / will see WL and continue with The Message of Gospel." They are many "hard-cored" LC followers getting deep discount for a spot on grace terrace site, but interesting enough, if you choice the spot closer to WL, the higher price is. For the Lee's family residence on Ball Rd, one side is for his family and the other side is kept locked as "museum" for WL.