1 Timothy 4:1-3 Deception and Seducing

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Paul,

When I stopped meeting with the Local Church of Witness Lee, I also stopped reading the Bible. I told the Lord when I left, "please don't let go of me" and "please don't make me go back there." I was afraid that if I read the Bible, He would make me go back. For 4 years I didn't touch the Bible. Then years later, a former member suggested that I "read it like it was a book." So I did. I wasn't looking for answers. I wasn't testing anything that I was aware of. I was just reading the Bible. It was amazing. It was a like a new experience altogether.

I don't know for sure what was happening, but looking back, I can say, the Lord did exactly what I asked of Him: He "didn't let go of me", and He "didn't make me go back". Maybe the verse "cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you" applies.

This was my personal experience with the Lord, and remains so until this day. I talk to him. If something is bothering me or if I need something, I just tell him. I don't get an immediate thunderbolt answer, usually, but I do get an answer...after which, I thank Him. I think my experience was then and is now, to "know him", in the sense that Paul prayed "that I may know him".

To me, knowing Him was/is more important than figuring out the Bible. I believe this is what helps me to listen and understand and pay attention to warnings and red flags. It also helps when I have a question.

So your original question "But the bigger question is, what and how does anyone test things? And what is the ultimate and final confirmation of everything? Is there one?"...when you know the one in charge of all things, He will often throw a flag when something is not right as he did with Matt ("you are deceived"), and with me ("he didn't mean that like it sounded").

No one is suggesting a total reliance on the Holy Spirit. We are told to rely on the Spirit and the Word.

So, to go back to something Matt said or implied, our desire for knowledge may need to be adjusted from knowing "about" Him to knowing HIM. Personally. When you need to test...something...ask Him and wait.

Nell

Nell,

Good enough, I think I made my point at least somewhat clear. I’m not insisting on this or trying to prove to anyone that they should proceed into some other direction. I know you keep referring to this “knowledge”, idea as some kind of evil, or that I need to go back and read original post, which I did. I will just repeat what I already said: it’s not about knowledge, it’s not about studying Bible for the sake of studying, it’s not about trying to go and know things beyond from what is written. But it’s about not falling into the same hole that I just got out from by the mercy of God, where “God told me so”, therefore ya”ll better conform, was a thing. I don’t care if and angel from heaven transfigures himself in my living room and tells me things that I should do so and so, or that I have been duped or “deceived”, I will have some hard questions for him before I even consider anything he has to say. Sorry.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,

Good enough, I think I made my point at least somewhat clear. I’m not insisting on this or trying to prove to anyone that they should proceed into some other direction. I know you keep referring to this “knowledge”, idea as some kind of evil, or that I need to go back and read original post, which I did.

Paul,

Please reference the post/s wherein I said "knowledge" is some kind of evil. I do not believe, as a blanket statement, that knowledge is some kind of evil. I don't think I said that anywhere. Please backup your statement with fact and I will correct it. Knowledge is to be tested.

And yes, you need to go back and read the original post. Is that a problem?

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Paul,

Please reference the post/s wherein I said "knowledge" is some kind of evil. I do not believe, as a blanket statement, that knowledge is some kind of evil. I don't think I said that anywhere. Please backup your statement with fact and I will correct it. Knowledge is to be tested.

And yes, you need to go back and read the original post. Is that a problem?

Nell

Nell,
Your constant reference to Matt’s original post where he basically calls knowledge “fleshy desire”, and that “seducing spirits give knowledge” is what I’m referring to you calling knowledge evil. I disagree with those assessments, and I replied to Matt’s post as such.

Just FYI, I just read Matt’s post 3 times, and I don’t see anything that will change my thinking on any of his conclusions. I’m sorry if that goes against your experience as well. There isn’t anything personal, but to me, I’ll stand on something solid and verifiable, rather that trusting my own experiences and verifying those experiences by some other special leadings. If you have some special point that you keep referring to, please highlight it and make it specific what you are trying to say. I don’t speak mind games.

Also, I guess it’s pretty cool to assume that everyone who asks someone for Biblical reference, is only knows/seek things “about Him” and just trying to know the Bible, but those who are in the “know”, and have some special connections are the ones that actually “know Him”. I think I heard that before somewhere, but I will just assume that it’s not what was meant there.

Thanks

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,
Your constant reference to Matt’s original post where he basically calls knowledge “fleshy desire”, and that “seducing spirits give knowledge” is what I’m referring to you calling knowledge evil. I disagree with those assessments, and I replied to Matt’s post as such.

What are you talking about???? My "constant reference" to Matt's post...? This topic is ABOUT Matt's post. This is a discussion, yet you falsely accuse me because I'm referring to the original post? That's absurd.

Again, I DID NOT call "knowledge evil." You read something into my post that is not there.

Just FYI, I just read Matt’s post 3 times, and I don’t see anything that will change my thinking on any of his conclusions. I’m sorry if that goes against your experience as well. There isn’t anything personal, but to me, I’ll stand on something solid and verifiable, rather that trusting my own experiences and verifying those experiences by some other special leadings. If you have some special point that you keep referring to, please highlight it and make it specific what you are trying to say. I don’t speak mind games.

Not trying to change your thinking...this is a discussion. You need to tell me what you need clarified. Specifically. I said what I meant. If you don't understand something, you need to be specific. I can't possibly guess what I need to clarify.

Are you calling my walk with the Lord "mind games"? Really? If you don't understand what I'm saying, say so. Be specific. Don't disparage my experiences, my walk with the Lord. Don't misrepresent my words to others who are reading this forum.

Also, I guess it’s pretty cool to assume that everyone who asks someone for Biblical reference, is only knows/seek things “about Him” and just trying to know the Bible, but those who are in the “know”, and have some special connections are the ones that actually “know Him”. I think I heard that before somewhere, but I will just assume that it’s not what was meant there.

You're mocking me. Your disparaging, twisting of my words make a mockery of my walk with the Lord...because...it's different from your own? Because you don't understand what I'm saying? If you can "assume that it's not what was meant" then why say it?

I'm not trying to change what you think. I'm just presenting my own view of 1 Tim. 4:1-3.

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

What are you talking about???? My "constant reference" to Matt's post...? This topic is ABOUT Matt's post. This is a discussion, yet you falsely accuse me because I'm referring to the original post? That's absurd.

Again, I DID NOT call "knowledge evil." You read something into my post that is not there.

Ok, I guess I’m reading to much into some of your words, I’m sorry. Maybe the description of knowledge in the start of this discussion, just triggers some things that I heard from LC for over a decade. I guess there are couple of us who had the same response.

Originally Posted by Nell

Not trying to change your thinking...this is a discussion. You need to tell me what you need clarified. Specifically. I said what I meant. If you don't understand something, you need to be specific. I can't possibly guess what I need to clarify.

Again, I was trying to ask you if you would please pick a line or a statement or paragraph from Matt’s post, that you would like me to read over, so I could respond, thus why I used the term “mind game”, because I can’t guess a specific issue you would like me to re-read. That’s all.

Originally Posted by Nell

Are you calling my walk with the Lord "mind games"? Really? If you don't understand what I'm saying, say so. Be specific. Don't disparage my experiences, my walk with the Lord. Don't misrepresent my words to others who are reading this forum.

Not calling your experience or anyones experience anything, nor am I disparaging you in any way, if that came across like that I’m sorry. I’m just trying to understand what you are pointing me to, when you say; “need to go back and read the original post”.

Originally Posted by Nell

You're mocking me. Your disparaging, twisting of my words make a mockery of my walk with the Lord...because...it's different from your own? Because you don't understand what I'm saying? If you can "assume that it's not what was meant" then why say it?

I'm not trying to change what you think. I'm just presenting my own view of 1 Tim. 4:1-3.

Nell

Why do we need to get so personal as if somehow your walk, my walk, or anyone else’s is under attack? There is nothing personal or mocking that I said or implied, at least from my end. What I said and referred to, is the fact that for over a decade I have heard those almost exact words, when I asked for some Biblical clarifications on a specific issue. It has nothing to do with you, or how you go about your relationship with the Lord. No one can alter or change that, it’s between you and the Lord, or me and the Lord.
When someone tells me that I’m not trying to know Him, by asking simple questions, but I’m seeking to know just Bible or looking for knowledge, is an incorrect statement. I know Him, just as I’m sure you do, and we are all in different stages of our growth, maybe you just further ahead of me down that path, only God knows. So please understand that I have nothing, zero, or not in any way twisting your words. Again, sorry if that’s how it sounded. That’s why I said that “I will assume that it’s not what was meant by those words”

I can read almost every single reply to one of my posts as someone mocking my views or my walk, but I don’t. Just as in a normal healthy family, there are disagreements between the siblings and they could get in a way of a bigger picture, so are these discussions sometimes, could be used as a wedge, rather than for building and sharpening.

Thanks

[Nell]

Apologies accepted.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Slow to post again on this thread. Just got a little busy! First of all, to clarify, I do not think knowledge is implicitly bad or evil. My post may seem to indicate this, so I will try to balance what I was saying to some extent. My balancing may not satisfy because I know I am touching on a potentially sensitive subject. So, I do think that the pursuit of knowing more than what is freely given to us by God can lead to unknowing interactions with seducing spirits. God freely gives the knowledge that is healthy for each one of us through the Holy Spirit. It is when we seek to go beyond what is given that we can get in some trouble.

So, the main point I was referring to is about the boundaries on what we can know and the fact that there can be different sources of the knowledge. When it comes to spiritual knowledge, I believe that the source can be the Holy Spirit and, alternatively, it can be other spirits. I think it is important to be aware of sources other than the Holy Spirit even if the knowledge is coming straight out of the text of the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit when we are presented with spiritual knowledge. If the source is good, we can learn to hear with both our mind (strong and sound) and with the witness in our spirit.

Paul V is describing those who are struggling to address their current situation in the LC. All of us have experienced bad teaching (including "doctrines of demons") and if we pay attention to the witness in our spirit from the Holy Spirit, then we can reject it. This takes practice and testing to learn how to do it. The testing process has some objective aspects, but also some subjective ones. The objective ones are mostly based on true knowledge of the Word of God. The subjective ones are based on two things God says he gives us in our relating to Him. He gives us "life" and "peace" (Romans 8:6, Malachi 2:5-6). I have learned to reject things based on the witness in my Spirit even before I can explain to my mind why it should not accept it. When this happens to me, I am always left with a question in my mind which I put in front of God asking why I have a bad witness about something. In time, He has always given me the knowledge and understanding of why I had a bad witness in my spirit. It is not always right away.

Many groups claim to have special teachings/authority from God. They bring many other believers under bondage through their approach while the Holy Spirit is faithfully witnessing about the things that are true vs. false that come from others.

I believe there a few verses that address what I am saying.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but examine all things; hold fast to what is good.

I understand the word "prophecies" here to be the declaration of truths. It can be based on the Word of God. It can also be foretelling things which God has shared. I believe each believer is expected to examine (i.e. test, including spritually) ALL things. Paul did not write this to a special group in the church, but to all siblings in Christ commonly.

These verses freed me up a lot at one point. I realized my responsibility to test everything and to set aside the bad stuff. Since then, I can listen to very good teachers and still reject portions of what they say because the do not pass the "test". The test is both with my mind based on my knowledge and with my spirit based on a witness from the Holy Spirit and the presence of "life" and "peace" in my being. It has to pass both aspects of the "test". Secondly, I have learned that I can even receive from "bad teachers" (i.e. ones who have a lot of problems in their teaching) the good things that they share. In my experience, we have one true teacher, the Holy Spirit. God does use other lesser teachers who are not completely true like the Holy Spirit to communicate truths to us.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name—that one will teach you all things, and will remind you of everything that I said to you.

So, for me, the boundary on knowledge and seeking knowledge is about what God gives me in the realm of knowledge VS. the knowledge that I seek apart from my relationship with God. There can be a fine line here and it is one that others really can't judge in regards to someone else. It is something that each one of us has to work out in our relationship to God. I will close with a short example.

About 30 years ago, I found and bought a copy of War on the Saints by Jesse Penn Lewis. I wanted to read it. As soon as I started, I realized that something wasn't right. I paused and asked God about this book. It was very clear to me in that moment that I was NOT supposed to read it. I put it on my shelf. Over the next 25 years, I noticed the book several different times. I was still interested in reading it, but I still had a sense (which I believe was from the Holy Spirit) that the answer was "No", don't read it. About 5 years ago, I saw the book on my shelf and had a very different sense. I understood that not only was it a "Yes", but God wanted me to read it. A few months before, God had sent me a brother in Christ with another book. He told me that when he got up that morning, God pointed out the book on the shelf and said to him very clearly. That book is for Matt, give it to him. The book had a strong topical connection to War on the Saints. So, it seemed to me through these two things that God wanted me to gain additional knowledge of some of the matters covered by these books. As I read each of them, I realized why God had said "No" for many years. I wasn't ready and the knowledge in these books was for the right time. Before the right time, my Father in Heaven was saying, "Not yet, son".

This example is what I am talking about in regards to handling knowledge of various kinds of spiritual things. We should receive what we are given and not pluck the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil of our own will OR apart from our relationship with God or else we run the danger of interacting with "other spirits" who I believe are available and ready to teach a "twisted" form of the truth.

Matt