Prophecy - The End Times

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you explain how His coming "as a thief in the night" (I Ths 5.2) can correspond "with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God?" They just don't seem to be the same.

Here is the entire passage:

Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you.
2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night.
3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape.
4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
(1Th*5:1-9*NAU)

I cannot read this passage in its entirety and conclude it is pointing to anything other than the second coming. To the ones who are in figurative darkness His coming will be like a thief. To the ones in the light, it will be during the "day".

The idea that the "thief" is coming to steal believers simply does not hold up to scrutiny in this context. The thief is not coming to believers, but rather to unbelievers, and they will be taken by surprise and destroyed. And there is nothing "secret" about it: the day will be noticed.

Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.

Sorry, Buddy, but I’m not Darby.

Peter says the “day of the Lord” is a thousand years.

3.10. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, and elements will be dissolved, burning with heat, and the earth and the works in it will not be found.
11. All these things being dissolved in this way, what kind ought you to be? In holy conduct and godliness,
12. Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, by reason of which the heavens will be dissolved, being set on fire, and the elements are melting, burning with heat.
13. But according to His promise, we are awaiting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Lots will happen on that one “day.”

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Sorry Darby, I don't buy it. There is only one day, not two.


HERn didn’t write the above.

Sorry, not sure how that happened.

[Timotheist]

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

[Nell]

Where do these verses fit?

Revelation 14:1-5
The Lamb and the 144,000
14 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among mankind and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.


Revelation 7:1-4
144,000 Sealed
7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”

Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

From Witness Lee: "In principle, God's Harvest will (also) be gathered in 3 stages".

https://www.ministrysamples.org/exce...IRSTFRUIT.HTML

Nell

[Timotheist]

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

I started to write something else before I saw Nell's question.

Good question, and I will address this tonight, when I am home.

But in short, they are "sealed" before the Trib, but it does not say they are taken anywhere. The next chapter describes martyrs in heaven, those who are killed during the Trib. It does not mention the 144,000 being there. So I take it that their "seal" keeps them safe on the Earth, whereas the Beast will be marking his followers during that time.

Please include your theory of Witness Lee's theory. :-)

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co*15:51-53*NAU)

Here again, Paul fails to mention a rapture before the tribulation, that is, at the first trumpet.

This would have been a good place for him to expound on this burning question: Will those who participate in the pre-trib rapture take on their glorified bodies then, or will they have to wait for the rest of us?

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Nell

Timotheist, et al,

What do you make of these verses in Revelation 16:15-17?

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”) 16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

The Seventh Bowl
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple, from the throne, saying, “It is done!”

So Jesus is warning ... someone ... surely he is speaking to believers ... to stay awake before the seventh bowl.

Nell

Another good question!

For this one I have to suggest a choice between two options:

1) These are those who converted AFTER the 7th trumpet and the resurrection. There is a path to salvation for them, but they must stay alert.

2) Incredibly, these are those who were raptured/resurrected at the 7th trumpet, and this is a warning to "keep your clothes on". What are these clothes? Elsewhere the robe seems to indicate the spiritual body, as opposed to the physical, which is "naked".

I see a parallel to the parable of the "naked guest" who somehow makes it to the wedding feast. The guest is thrown out into the outer darkness, apparently because he shed his garment.

How can we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?

The robe is also an indication of holiness, sanctification. Taking the robe off, then, would indicate a rejection of salvation, which is within the realm of possibility. These are those in the parable of the sower, who initially accept salvation with joy, but then walk away.

So the time of the bowls must lie between the second coming and the judgement of the believers. Can somebody "screw up" and rebel during this time? I suppose that the tendency of human nature to "lust for the flesh" knows no bounds.

The "thief" comes to those who are not alert and prepared.

So I tend towards the second option, but the other is still a possibility in my mind. I know I am treading in dangerous waters here, possibly angering those who believe in "once saved, always saved". But the outer darkness is not the second death. That judgement does not occur until the end of the 1000 years.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, Buddy, but I’m not Darby.

Peter says the “day of the Lord” is a thousand years.

OK then, you say you want a discussion but you keep moving the target. How about we stay in Thessalonians some more and you defend your position?

If this is a true discussion, then I get to ask questions, too.

To answer your point: the "day of the Lord" begins with His coming, and ends 1000 years later. The tribulation occurs before that day. So the day does not last 1003.5 years or 1007. That's how I see it.