Pasadena Conference 1988--My Notes of Brother Lee's Speaking

[Kyle Yoakum]

Notes verbatim from my notebook of Witness Lee’s sharing on the Pasadena Conference 1988:

“When you listen to this oracle of God, do you mean you listen to man? No, you listen to God's oracle. I have been in the US for over 20 years, every week I spoke, is that my speaking? Yes, but is that my word? No, that’s God’s oracle. Then to whom you have been listening to for 26 years? No, not to W. Lee. You have been listening to God’s oracle. You listen to God. If all you have been listening to is a man from China, you are the top fool.

God is in His oracle spoken, in His messenger. Not a king from Bethlehem, but a Nazarite from Nazareth, Jesus came, an old Chinaman came speaking to you in an accent. Not what you listen to, but who you listen to. You listen to God in His oracle.

This is the top Christian country, full of Christian books, 50,000 Christian book stores selling Christian books. Hundreds of pastors speaking every Sunday morning. Have you ever heard the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit? Have you ever had a book telling you this?
I am a little proud.

Some condemn door-knocking saying, ‘Let us come back to the enjoyment of Christ.’ I said, ‘Enjoy Christ’ is not American English. Experience Christ, exhibit Christ, this is Chinese English brought over across the Pacific. Out of his mouth you learned this term. I am a little proud.

You don’t know. I know. I know. I invented this term experience Christ, enjoy Christ, exalt Christ. I wrote a hymn. Have you ever read the processed Triune God? The seven-fold Spirit of God? Have you ever heard this? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this? Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee!
The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it? Lee has to be famous! Lee must get the credit! And you have to listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by Lee. Does this mean you listen to man? No. You listen to our dear God in His oracle spoken by a man in poor English.

…the dispensing of the processed Triune God into the transformed tripartite man. Isn’t this wonderful? I would dance. This is passed on to you all through me. All of you have to give me the credit. It is Lee who gave you this!….
The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"

[Weighingin]

I understand that neither video nor audio of that is to be found anywhere.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

"It is Lee who gave you this!…. The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"

Hoo boy!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

Notes verbatim from my notebook of Witness Lee’s sharing on the Pasadena Conference 1988:
He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this?
Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee! The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it?

Wow. Okay. I assume from reading this the original speaker, Lee, feels we should worship him. I'll take a hard pass, thanks anyway. And I have read this. Verbatim, in scripture.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

“When you listen to this oracle of God, do you mean you listen to man? No, you listen to God's oracle. I have been in the US for over 20 years, every week I spoke, is that my speaking? Yes, but is that my word? No, that’s God’s oracle. Then to whom you have been listening to for 26 years? No, not to W. Lee. You have been listening to God’s oracle. You listen to God. If all you have been listening to is a man from China, you are the top fool.

Why should I buy any of this?

[Ohio]

Thanks Kyle Yoakum for your account.

Here is what John Ingalls recorded from that pathetic conference. (Emphasis in bold is mine.)

As the scriptures have said, "by two witnesses every word is established." (2 Corinthians 13.1)

CONFERENCE AND ELDERS’ MEETING IN PASADENA
November 1988

On the Thanksgiving Day weekend of November 1988 Brother Lee, just returned from Taiwan, held a conference of five meetings in the auditorium of the Pasadena City College in California. The conference was followed by an elders’ meeting November 27th in the meeting place of the church in San Gabriel. In that meeting Brother Lee proclaimed that though he had a hall in Anaheim, he was not happy to use it (no doubt because of certain people who were in Anaheim). The brothers in the Los Angeles area invited him to have a conference and arranged the place in Pasadena. He said that when he heard that it would be in Pasadena he was happy. These people, he said, "exalt" me: I am happy to be exalted.

Before the conference began a report came to us that a flyer had been printed and would be placed on the windshields of all the cars of those attending the conference in Pasadena. On the flyer, we were told, some sinful disorders were mentioned. We fully disapproved of such action. Not knowing who authorized or printed them or who intended to distribute them, but knowing a couple of brothers who we thought might be aware of it, we called them and urged them to do whatever they could to stop the distribution. It seems that our word was heeded, at least to some extent, for no flyers were distributed at the conference. We discovered later, however, that they were put on some cars in the Anaheim meeting hall parking lot. Such acts we believe to be of the flesh and not the way to protest wrongdoing. Some time later, after the conference, we obtained a copy of the flyer. It was entitled Significant Dates in the History of the Church in Anaheim.

In the first meeting of the conference, November 25th, Brother Lee was in a fighting spirit, fighting against "autonomy" and "federation." He referred to some books authored by George Henry Lang, a servant of the Lord in England during the latter part of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th. In one of his books, entitled The Churches of God, Lang emphasized the need for local administration in the churches. This was the book that troubled Brother Lee. (I had read this book, and being deeply impressed with its strong scriptural basis and timely application to our present need, I had recommended it to others.) Brother Lee called Lang’s book heretical and told the saints if they had them to burn them. I consider this kind of talk reckless and lawless. Brother Lee in years past had commended Lang for his insight and writing on the truth of the kingdom. His books have been recently reprinted and are available today.

In the conference meetings he strongly vindicated himself and his work. He gave a message in which he recounted a number of revelations brought forth by him which he said no one else besides the Bible authors had ever seen. Regarding the enjoying of Christ he said, "I invented this term, enjoying Christ." He continued, "I invented this term, experiencing Christ, exhibiting Christ." I believe a number of saints could testify that they heard of enjoying Christ or enjoying the Lord long before Brother Lee ever came to the United States. I for one did. My step-mother, seeking to help me, spoke to me of this in 1949. No doubt she heard this from other Christian teachers. The term, experiencing Christ, has also been spoken by other Christian teachers for years. Brother Lee did not invent that term. He mentioned many other items, claiming that they had all been revealed to him in the past twenty or so years; no one else had ever seen or spoken of them.

He referred to the title he has used for the Holy Spirit – "the all-inclusive Spirit of Christ as the consummation of the processed Triune God" – and asked who made such a title. Webster? he asked. Then he answered his own question, "That Lee! Lee has to be famous! Lee! Lee! Lee must have the credit! And if you listen to me, you do not listen to Lee, you listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by me." A little later in his message he said, "Going with God’s oracle, surely there is the deputy authority of God in this oracle. Whoever speaks for God, he surely has certain divine authority. I’m claiming this for Lee!"

Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God? To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all.

Following his message he asked for testimonies to be given by brothers from five countries: Brazil, the Philippines, Korea, Taiwan, and the United States. All these told of the success of the new way in their place, especially giving statistics regarding the number of churches and new ones baptized. The Lord along knows the real situation. If there is any real blessing from Him we rejoice and give thanks.

In the elders’ meeting following the conference Brother Lee read from a list of items, mentioning what he said were the top ten revelations received by him, seen previously by no one else. Some of them were as follows:
1. "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
2. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17).
3. Prayreading.
4. Calling on the name of the Lord.
5. The seven Spirits.
6. The dispensing of the processed Triune God into the tripartite man.
7. The New Jerusalem as a corporate man.
8. The lampstand as the embodiment of the Triune God.

Now we thank God for these revelations from His holy Word, but to claim that he was the first one to see these is going altogether too far. Moreover, concerning at least a number of these items, Brother Lee was in fact not the first to see them. Regarding the last Adam becoming a life-giving Spirit and our being one spirit with the Lord, there were a number of other Christian teachers who saw and wrote of these things. We have evidence of this. Concerning prayreading, many have seen this and practiced this, as recorded in the book authored by Ray Graver and published by the LSM entitled, "Lord…Thou Saidst." Calling on the name of the Lord was not a recent discovery by Brother Lee or by us. The New Jerusalem as a corporate person was also seen by others—T. Austin-Sparks for one. If we have time or if there is the need, we may document all these instances.

The revelations mentioned are indeed great and precious. Fairly speaking, some of these matters may have been fresh revelations to Brother Lee. The Lord alone knows. And some of them he may have enunciated more clearly than his predecessors. But for anyone to claim that no one had ever seen these things before, but him, is totally insupportable, since we are not omniscient. Moreover, such self-vindication is very unbecoming and repugnant.

Brother Lee went on to say, "You cannot deny the fact that the Lord’s oracle has been with me. I claim this at the face of Jesus Christ. The deputy authority of God is in His oracle; so whoever speaks for God has His deputy authority. But I never used it."

In the elders’ meeting, Brother Lee referred to some anonymous papers being circulated and blamed the elders in Anaheim for not stopping the distribution. He then referred to the flyer which had been printed and was to be put on the windshields of the cars at the conference. I then rose from my seat and said that we wanted Brother Lee and all the brothers to know that we fully disapproved of that action and had done whatever we could to stop it. Brother Lee took the opportunity then, while I was on my feet, to question me publicly about a few things. He asked me about an anonymous writing entitled Reconsidering Our Vision. (which had troubled him greatly) and if we had done anything to stop its circulation. I said that we had not.

Regarding some brothers, probably including me (or, especially me), Brother Lee said, Whether you are for me or not, I know; I know everything. I know what restaurant you were eating in, what day, and with whom. I have a lot of colleagues who write me long records of ten to twenty pages about you. He said further, Which church is under my hand? You have a church; I have none. I know which church welcomes me, and which has a cold heart toward me.

Near the end of his word he proclaimed, I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care. I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth.

When he sat down and asked for fellowship, a brother from Anaheim, Paul Kerr, rose toward the end of the time and asked two questions. The first consisted of two queries: Why have other brothers besides you not been raised up? And, Why do you have no contemporaries to challenge you and fellowship with you? Brother Lee’s answer was simply, "I don’t know." And then he said that since 1945 he has been watching to see if anyone else could speak God’s word as God’s oracle. He could find none. Paul Kerr’s next question concerned John So and John Ingalls. He asked, "How is it that in the past you referred to these two brothers as pillars and today’s Timothy, and today you have nothing good to say about them? Brother Lee’s reply was that brothers can change. Demas loved the Lord, but then he changed and loved the world. I can change, he said; we all can change. So we all need the Lord’s mercy.

Brother Lee was beside himself in this meeting. I had never personally observed him in such a state as I witnessed him there. He was obviously exceedingly agitated. That was the last elders’ meeting with Brother Lee that I ever attended.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I understand that neither video nor audio of that is to be found anywhere.

LSM has a long history of hiding Lee's outrageous side from public view.

Nigel Tomes, former co-worker in the Recovery and now a teaching elder in Toronto, ON, Canada, wrote a lengthy paper on LSM's practice of doing this to protect their "master" from scrutiny.

Witness Lee Sanitized - LSM's Life-Study Radio Broadcast Examined

[awareness]

Ohio quotes John Ingalls, who quotes Witness Lee :

Originally Posted by Ohio

"Now I would ask, are these the words of a sober man, the words of a spiritual man, a man of God? To me it is shocking to hear him speak this way, for he has indeed been used of God in the past to speak His Word. But to vindicate oneself so blatantly and boastfully indicates to me a fall. May the Lord have mercy on us all."

Narcissists and megalomaniacs are often the leaders of cults.

[Sons to Glory!]

Wow - I just PRAISE GOD that He got us fully out of that system in 1988!

We can't take credit as we had no idea what was really going on, but God did! He just loves us . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Wow - I just PRAISE GOD that He got us fully out of that system in 1988!

And I praise God he got me out 8 years prior.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Narcissists and megalomaniacs are often the leaders of cults.

All heretical teachings are not created equal. This teaching of DEPUTY AUTHORITY, whether used by the Pope or a seriously fervent Christian minister like Witness Lee, is so dangerous. Why? Because power corrupts the man, and don't be fooled about it, but these teachings about "deputy authority" are all about power.

Think about how the Lord taught the disciples while He was here on earth. Some wanted to be first in the kingdom of God. But Jesus spoke about servant leadership. He taught us never to rule like the Gentiles. There were reasons why He stressed this so much. Leaders should never lord it over others.

This teaching of DEPUTY AUTHORITY ruined Brother Lee. It was on full display in that Rosemead Conference. Power corrupts and Lee wanted absolute power in the Recovery. Philip Lee was also corrupted by power. Philip was reckless, sinful, abusive, and reprobate. Why would his Dad put him in charge Knowing he had molested other sisters? Because power also makes us paranoid. Such power is the enemy of God. Look at how it damaged so many saints. Look what it did to Witness Lee!

[Sons to Glory!]

Yes, I agree that the whole "deputy authority" thing is probably up there in terms of damaging potential. Because of it anything spoken carries extra weight, whether it is biblically based or not. And it certainly lends itself to a stronger, centralized command and control.

In the end, it's just another way for pride to manifest through the flesh. Jesus avoided all of this, even though He had much to grasp onto, He didn't and He didn't flaunt it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

All heretical teachings are not created equal. This teaching of DEPUTY AUTHORITY, whether used by the Pope or a seriously fervent Christian minister like Witness Lee, is so dangerous. Why? Because power corrupts the man, and don't be fooled about it, but these teachings about "deputy authority" are all about power.

Lee came to America already corrupted by power. I spotted it back in the late 70s. I have Mel Porter to thank for that. He was a elder blinded by zealotry for Lee. He had zero spiritual qualities. Lee selected him as lead elder just and only because of his blind loyalty, too the already corrupted by power Lee.

God complexes go back to Caesar's and Pharaoh's ... and prolly back to primitive shaman days. Even those holding to The Great Spirit -- like the first-nation people here in America -- some of them had a human leader that represented and both spoke for the great spirit, and carried its authority.

Lee was nothing new.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Witness Lee as quoted by Kyle Yoakum

I invented this term experience Christ, enjoy Christ, exalt Christ. I wrote a hymn. Have you ever read the processed Triune God? The seven-fold Spirit of God? Have you ever heard this? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this? Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee! The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it? Lee has to be famous! Lee must get the credit! And you have to listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by Lee. The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"

Special thanks to Kyle Yoakum for posting these personal notes. Not surprisingly, they match very closely to what John Ingalls published in Speaking the Truth in Love. I was shocked to the core when word got out about Witness Lee's ranting, raving and unseemly boasting in this meeting. The abject truth really hit me hard. How could a man that I admired and honored so much utter such things? It took me quite a while to admit to myself that this must of been in this man's heart all along. The words of our Lord suddenly landed on me like a ton of bricks..."For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks." (Matt 12:34)

Like so many others, the spell of Witness Lee had been broken. I still resisted and still hung on for a number of years, mostly for my close relatives who would not, or could not, see the truth right before us. It was too painful, and it was too costly to see the truth. To this very day, for many dear brothers and sisters in the Local Churches, it is still too painful, and it is still too costly. And the simple truth is that it is not getting any less painful. It is not getting any less costly. May God have mercy.
-

[Cal]

"The greatest among you shall be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus, Matt 23:11-12


"These people exalt me. I am happy to be exalted."

Witness Lee, Nov 1988

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cal

"The greatest among you shall be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted."

Jesus, Matt 23:11-12

"These people exalt me. I am happy to be exalted."

Witness Lee, Nov 1988

Lee's arrogance and pride caused him to forsake the righteousness of God when he covered up his son Philip's immorality, and then went further to smear the reputations of all those who decided to take a stand for the righteousness of God when they protected the saints as real shepherd elders.

[Raptor]

I don't have any notes but can testify my 2 cents that I heard WL many times say the same kind of things, paraphrasing: "I invented these terms", "nobody else has this", "nobody else has seen this", "I should get the credit for this". Usually coupled with "poor, poor christianity".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I don't have any notes but can testify my 2 cents that I heard WL many times say the same kind of things, paraphrasing: "I invented these terms", "nobody else has this", "nobody else has seen this", "I should get the credit for this". Usually coupled with "poor, poor christianity".

My wife went to that horrible Pasadena conference because she could not believe that John Ingalls was capable of a global conspiracy to take down the ministry of Witness Lee. She was right.

She should have gone with her initial "gut feeling" which corresponded with the actual events. None of the facts of what happened were mentioned at the conference.

Instead she was forced to choose between Witness Lee and John Ingalls. Unfortunately Lee owned the podium, and most chose Lee's lies over the truth.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by JohnIngallsSpeakingTheTruthInLove

Near the end of his word he proclaimed, "I don’t care for the loss of any church. Even if the entire U. S. A. is closed to me I don’t care. I only care for ten to twenty faithful ones meeting together to practice the truth."

The way things are going in the Local Church, Witness my get his wish in the near future.
-

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My wife went to that horrible Pasadena conference because she could not believe that John Ingalls was capable of a global conspiracy to take down the ministry of Witness Lee. She was right.

She should have gone with her initial "gut feeling" which corresponded with the actual events. None of the facts of what happened were mentioned at the conference.

Instead she was forced to choose between Witness Lee and John Ingalls. Unfortunately Lee owned the podium, and most chose Lee's lies over the truth.

I think that it made a big difference that I didn't read John Ingalls' book until I had already become somewhat disillusioned with the LC. The account of Lee's behavior during that conference just casts such a big shadow on WL and everything that people thought him to be. His behavior was just so outrageous, there's really no way that anyone could rationalize it.

For those who are in the LC, I think that the dilemma they are facing goes beyond it being a simple issue of lies vs facts. Most of them have invested a good amount of time/money in the the LC, even to the point of moving around the country, picking places to live, careers that accommodate the LC, etc. For them to admit that they need to leave is a big deal. And unfortunately, I think it's just too difficult for some people to arrive at that conclusion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Instead she was forced to choose between Witness Lee and John Ingalls. Unfortunately Lee owned the podium, and most chose Lee's lies over the truth.

No Christian should be forced to choose between two men. Anytime we must choose between two ministers, we, by definition, become "of man." And tragically then we are no more "of Christ."

We choose the Lord by faith and in the Spirit of God by His grace, but once we choose man, any man, we become fleshly, men in the flesh, men walking in jealousy and strife. (I Cor 3.3-4) Choosing men shipwrecks our faith and our conscience. (I Tim 1.19) Choosing men causes us to fall from grace.

Rather we must choose Christ only Christ, choose righteousness, choose the gospel, choose the truth, and choose life. The natural man will always choose the easy way, the wide way, and in the Recovery the easy way is to choose Lee. All of the ministry zealots then will be behind you.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No Christian should be forced to choose between two men. Anytime we must choose between two ministers, we, by definition, become "of man." And tragically then we are no more "of Christ."

WL's ministry was really always about himself. Among all those who WL eventually saw as threats, they never stole any of his thunder. If anything, they probably could be faulted for how much they had championed for him in the past.

In a way, WL forcing people to take sides was really just him verbalizing what many already knew to be true - that he was a one man show.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I understand that neither video nor audio of that is to be found anywhere.

I had been told otherwise by a former LSM volunteer. There is or was a video, but it is restricted. The context is 2003-2005 when this information was revealed to me.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

Notes verbatim from my notebook of Witness Lee’s sharing on the Pasadena Conference 1988:

“When you listen to this oracle of God, do you mean you listen to man? No, you listen to God's oracle. I have been in the US for over 20 years, every week I spoke, is that my speaking? Yes, but is that my word? No, that’s God’s oracle. Then to whom you have been listening to for 26 years? No, not to W. Lee. You have been listening to God’s oracle. You listen to God. If all you have been listening to is a man from China, you are the top fool.

God is in His oracle spoken, in His messenger. Not a king from Bethlehem, but a Nazarite from Nazareth, Jesus came, an old Chinaman came speaking to you in an accent. Not what you listen to, but who you listen to. You listen to God in His oracle.

This is the top Christian country, full of Christian books, 50,000 Christian book stores selling Christian books. Hundreds of pastors speaking every Sunday morning. Have you ever heard the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit? Have you ever had a book telling you this?
I am a little proud.

Some condemn door-knocking saying, ‘Let us come back to the enjoyment of Christ.’ I said, ‘Enjoy Christ’ is not American English. Experience Christ, exhibit Christ, this is Chinese English brought over across the Pacific. Out of his mouth you learned this term. I am a little proud.

You don’t know. I know. I know. I invented this term experience Christ, enjoy Christ, exalt Christ. I wrote a hymn. Have you ever read the processed Triune God? The seven-fold Spirit of God? Have you ever heard this? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this? Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee!

The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it? Lee has to be famous! Lee must get the credit! And you have to listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by Lee. Does this mean you listen to man? No. You listen to our dear God in His oracle spoken by a man in poor English.

…the dispensing of the processed Triune God into the transformed tripartite man. Isn’t this wonderful? I would dance. This is passed on to you all through me. All of you have to give me the credit. It is Lee who gave you this!….

The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"

Bringing this forward. The self-exaltation completely unmasks what type of spirit this was.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Kyle Yoakum

Notes verbatim from my notebook of Witness Lee’s sharing on the Pasadena Conference 1988:

“When you listen to this oracle of God, do you mean you listen to man? No, you listen to God's oracle. I have been in the US for over 20 years, every week I spoke, is that my speaking? Yes, but is that my word? No, that’s God’s oracle. Then to whom you have been listening to for 26 years? No, not to W. Lee. You have been listening to God’s oracle. You listen to God. If all you have been listening to is a man from China, you are the top fool.

God is in His oracle spoken, in His messenger. Not a king from Bethlehem, but a Nazarite from Nazareth, Jesus came, an old Chinaman came speaking to you in an accent. Not what you listen to, but who you listen to. You listen to God in His oracle.

This is the top Christian country, full of Christian books, 50,000 Christian book stores selling Christian books. Hundreds of pastors speaking every Sunday morning. Have you ever heard the last Adam became a life-giving Spirit? Have you ever had a book telling you this?
I am a little proud.

Some condemn door-knocking saying, ‘Let us come back to the enjoyment of Christ.’ I said, ‘Enjoy Christ’ is not American English. Experience Christ, exhibit Christ, this is Chinese English brought over across the Pacific. Out of his mouth you learned this term. I am a little proud.

You don’t know. I know. I know. I invented this term experience Christ, enjoy Christ, exalt Christ. I wrote a hymn. Have you ever read the processed Triune God? The seven-fold Spirit of God? Have you ever heard this? He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit. Have you ever read this? Pray-reading, is there such a hyphenated word? Who invented such a wonderful word? Calling on the Lord-Have you ever heard this? Who taught you this? Lee! That Lee! That old Lee!
The all-inclusive Spirit of Christ is the consummation of the processed Triune God. What is this? Who made this sentence? That Lee? Lee made it? Lee has to be famous! Lee must get the credit! And you have to listen to the very God in His oracle spoken by Lee. Does this mean you listen to man? No. You listen to our dear God in His oracle spoken by a man in poor English.

…the dispensing of the processed Triune God into the transformed tripartite man. Isn’t this wonderful? I would dance. This is passed on to you all through me. All of you have to give me the credit. It is Lee who gave you this!….
The deputy authority of God in His oracle. Whoever speaks for God has certain divine authority. I am claiming this for Lee!"

It's blasphemy.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Freedom

For those who are in the LC, I think that the dilemma they are facing goes beyond it being a simple issue of lies vs facts. Most of them have invested a good amount of time/money in the the LC, even to the point of moving around the country, picking places to live, careers that accommodate the LC, etc. For them to admit that they need to leave is a big deal. And unfortunately, I think it's just too difficult for some people to arrive at that conclusion.

Some of the inner circle were aware there's something wrong with Lee's teachings, and they revealed it, and then they were labeled "ambitious" and were blamed for causing divisions, so they left.

Some of the inner might be aware too, but they chose to stay and to cover it. Most members, the laymen, spend time attending meetings and training, instead of reading His Words. Lee's teachings became their light and enjoyment, yet they think they are enjoying the true Light from the Truth.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

The worse part is Lee said that we should not have opinions. The truth is that the local church is full of Lee's opinions and his opinions only.

Bringing this over from another thread, as my comments may not be central to that discussion, and I think they fit better here anyway. I'll try to make 2 separate points and will break them into separate posts.

First, I want to expand on what I mentioned in the other thread, that truth is a generally understood and agreed-upon set of observations or phenomena. The sun rises in the east, not the west. Every 4 years the USA has a presidential election. If you are in school, taking a test, there are boxes labeled "true" and "false" and you pick the right box.

Now to Witness Lee's truths, so-called. If he were in graduate school taking a course in religion, and said that "God's economy" included "intensification", the professor would likely put a red 'x' on that, and in the comments would say, "That may be your opinion, but where can you show that it is Paul teaching this, or Jesus or John or Peter?" It is not truth in any generally-accepted notion.

But suppose I say that Jesus is sinless. I can show where the gospels repeatedly say this, where Paul repeatedly says this, where Peter and John and Luke/Acts write this. I can show how Jesus' sinless status is manifested through his miraculous acts. See the commentary in John's gospel where the formerly blind man refuses to call Jesus a sinner, even under duress (9:24-33). I show how his sinless status is tied to his continual obedience, and that makes him the Lamb of God whose blood atones the sin of the world, and qualifies him for resurrection to glory. I could go on and on. And probably most professors, and most Christians, would understand and agree with such exposition. This makes it "truth" in the general sense of the Christian faith. It is the contents of what we believe.

But then look at Lee's supposed revelations. The four-in-one God. His explication of "God's economy". The one-apostle-per-age notion. Self-serving, ill-informed opinions. Not truth in any general accepted measure.

[aron]

On another thread on the 'trinity' I made a brief excursus, noting that in the synoptic gospels there's an interesting statement by Jesus, which I label a 'proto-trinitarian' formula. It's about Jesus and the Father and the holy angels in glory.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne.

Luke 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when He comes in His glory, and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

Mark 8:30 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.

Paul probably stresses the "one Spirit" (Eph 4:4-6) more than the "many [ministering] spirits" (Heb 1:14-2:2), and growing up in Fundamentalist Baptist Christianity we typically didn't acknowledge the presence of angels in the NT, except once a year at Christmas, where in our nativity pageant we allowed angels to announce the Good News to Mary and the Shepherds. And this is understandable: after the abuses of the Roman Catholic Church toward icons and angels and the Mother Mary, Protestantism delivered a stripped-down Jesus. Our mantra was 'Jesus/faith/Jesus/faith/Jesus/faith' etc etc.

Now I come to my point. Suppose I read Stephen speaking in Acts, and he says that "Moses received the lively oracles of God" via angelic mediation?

Acts 7:38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

Acts 7:53 you who received the law ordained by angels, yet have not kept it.

Suppose that I remember that the Job narrative references "the sons of God" in 1:6 and Genesis 6:2 calls the "sons of God" and the NT likely references these - at least in Genesis - as "angels [who sinned]". See epistles of Jude, 2 Peter, etc. And suppose I get to thinking, and put together my own "jigsaw puzzle". Witness Lee told us once that was what he was doing, but he mispronounced it as "bigsaw puzzle" and we all laughed.

Suppose I start to formulate and postulate and so forth, and come up with my own revelatory variant of the "Christian trinity" or whatever. (Now, mind you, I'm not convinced in my own mind of anything, but am simply looking at this gospel text as an example. There could be dozens of others.) Suppose I got convinced that I had some light on something, and wanted to share. My point here is that all of us, all of us, can get light, can see things, can think and ask and tentatively propose.

But if anyone thinks that they see something, they should be very, very, very, very, very cautious, or they'll end up like Mister Witness Lee in Pasadena California in 1988. His own words tell us what happened. Division, captivity, and ruin. What so-called truth is worth that? Back to the first post, the Christian truth, held by all, is centered in Jesus: the spotless, sinless, obedient Lamb of God who died and rose to glory. And everything either looks ahead to this (the OT) or looks back to it (the NT). Our hope is in Him and not in any ideational formula. Doesn't matter how many verses you crowd together, how many books you publish and churches you start up: if your 'revelation' brings ruin to others it isn't truth. It's not from God.

[aron]

Three addenda to my previous posts:

#1 Lest our readers think I'm trying to introduce non-orthodoxy with my observations, I'm trying to give an example that we can all read the text and make such observations. Mine are no better or more compelling than anyone else's. And my keying in on angels might be partly in reaction to a strict "no angels allowed" Protestant youth, perhaps as Martin Luther and John Calvin reacted to RCC abuse and imbalance. But a reaction to someone else's imbalance isn't truth per se, but merely reaction.

#2 Back to the sinless Christ as an example of bedrock Christian truth, or universal understanding, even the seemingly self-evident truths may dissolve on examination, and lead to further unanswered (or even unanswerable) phenomena. Notice how John the Baptist introduces Christ in John Chapter 1. Twice (vv 29, 36) he calls him the Lamb of God, and the first time he says, "who taketh away the sins of the world". John knew something, eh? Is he not implying sacrifice and atonement?

So, why did John then ask, through his disciples, "Are you the Christ or should we look for another?" If John knew that Jesus was the sinless Lamb of God, given for the expiation of the sins of the world, then how could he logically imply with his question that something was off when Jesus hadn't sprung him from the gaol? How was Jesus' sinless status going to redeem us all without Jesus' death? And if so, why should John the Baptiser, who introduced this notion, deny it later? It looks like the Baptist of John 1 is different than the one in the Matthew 11/Luke 7 story. One knows of the sinlessness and coming expiation, the other doesn't (or has forgotten).

#3

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

It's blasphemy.

Not sure what the current standards for blasphemy are, but I bet that WL was flirting with them here, if not outright over the line. Only Jesus can say, "I am/have God's oracle" in the singular. All of us can participate, all can prophesy, all have tongues and interpretations, but for a follower of Jesus Christ to speak as he did is delusional and flirting with blasphemy. Again I ask, what supposed revelation is worth that? And, what Christian in their right mind would follow it?

Imagine going to any professor of Christian religion at any College or Uni or Theological School, and asking them for support of the notion that God's oracle is invested in only one Christian believer, and when that believer dies the age turns and there's no more oracle? He or she will say that this isn't Christian at all, not by any stretch of the imagination. Anyone who insists that it is, is delusional.

[Robert]

Aaron's "So, why did John then ask, through his disciples, "Are you the Christ or should we look for another?" If John knew that Jesus was the sinless Lamb of God, given for the expiation of the sins of the world, then how could he logically imply with his question that something was off when Jesus hadn't sprung him from the gaol? How was Jesus' sinless status going to redeem us all without Jesus' death? And if so, why should John the Baptiser, who introduced this notion, deny it later? It looks like the Baptist of John 1 is different than the one in the Matthew 11/Luke 7 story. One knows of the sinlessness and coming expiation, the other doesn't (or has forgotten)."

I had discussion about it some day.

I think, that however John Baptist was special prepared tool, brother, prophet, he was not sinless. He was not perfect as Christ.
He had ministry of repentance. We can see from scripture, that some disciples joined to Christ when Jesus was passing John. John said " this is a Lamb of God".
But very interesting, that John himselve did not go after Jesus!
Why?
John 3:22-25 we see conflict among disciples of John with Jews about some practices.
3:22
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
3:23
And John also was baptizing in Enon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
3:24
For John was not yet cast into prison. A meaningful digression from author John apostle
3:25
There arose therefore a questioning on the part of John`s disciples with a Jew about purifying.

John 3;22 to 4:3 we have full picture.
This is not meaningless, that John Baptist despite His revelation about Son of God, did not quit his service/ministry. Read carefully verse by verse and read between.
In John 4:1 we can see dispute between Jews about numbers of baptised ones. Compairence between Jesus's ministry to John's.
4:1
When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
4:2
(although Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples),
4:3
he left Judea, and departed again into Galilee.
I see here, quiet Lamb of God, who is not arguing, dabating, oposses. Not confronting. He had His own mission and was obey to God Father.
In Gospel of John we do not hear any more about John Baptist Also interesting, that John Apostle known for love was more focused on Jesus mission then describig person and doubt of John The Baptist.
More about John is in Luke
7:20
And when the men were come unto him, they said, John the Baptist hath sent us unto thee, saying, Art thou he that cometh, or look we for another?
So we see this is John The Baptist himself.
Next helping picture is about Peter and disciples.
In Luke 9:18-20
9:18
And it came to pass, as he was praying apart, the disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Who do the multitudes say that I am?
9:19
And they answering said, John the Baptist; but others [say], Elijah; and others, that one of the old prophets is risen again.
9:20
And he said unto them, But who say ye that I am? And Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
I see here, that there was opinion among multitudes and Jesus was mistaken for John Baptist.
Although, Peter announced "The Christ of God" he denied Him later.
So Peter and JtB was simply humans as me and others. Not perfect.
I deny sometimes in my live all God showed me, I put in doubt all promises by disbelief.

So resuming:
JtB did not deny Jesus, but put in doubt.
JtB did not recognize only when to stop ministry and follow Jesus.
God arrenged him to be put in jail to seperate him frm miistry and have time to strenght his faith.

For now, Aaron, these are my two cents...
P.S. What i will say now is not a doctrine but curiosity.
All we know 2 Tim 3:16-17... So I noticed, that John the Baptist was decapitated. I read this as a message: "You are not head" or We need to be connected to head but not appart. But, as I said, free thought.