Overcomer Doctrine (Merged Thread)

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I believe God always has the good intention and purpose to restore His children and bring them on to full salvation. It just depends how you define the words, "discipline" and "punishment." Moses disobeyed the Lord and missed the entrance to the good land. That seems more on the side of discipline. The wicked servant in Matthew 24 seems to get more on the side of punishment. "The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites." (50-51).

"Punishment, commonly, is the imposition of an undesirable or unpleasant outcome upon a group or individual, meted out by an authority—in contexts ranging from child discipline to criminal law—as a response and deterrent to a particular action or behavior that is deemed undesirable or unacceptable."

In the context of this thread, scroll down for how we define discipline.

[Nell]

There's also the matter of "punishment" and/or "discipline" at the hands of the "elders" in the Local Churches of Witness Lee. The "overcomer" teaching was used, and as some have noted, is still used as a threat to control the behavior of the membership.

Years ago, I was called into a "little dark room" as I came to know it, by 5 men who were called "elders" and I was "disciplined." I was terrified that night. I was filled with a fear that influenced my walk with the Lord for years after it happened.

I didn't understand their accusations against me. Even thought I didn't understand what was happening, I apologized and repented...surely I had done something wrong...so I assumed that I was in the wrong. I was too scared not to go along with their accusations.

My accusers, a couple I was living with, never actually confronted me before going to the "elders". Some of the accusations against me were false. Some were accusations of not doing things that were not my responsibility to do. i.e., "You made a pregnant sister walk to the meeting." She, in fact, never asked for a ride...never told me it was my responsibility to provide transportation for her. I would have been happy to help, had I known help was needed. Why didn't she just ask for a ride? Just let me know she needed a ride?

Why was this a matter for the "elders" to get involved? The "elders" should have told my accusers to talk to me. Rather, they took the opportunity to discipline and punish me.

I thought I was going to drop dead, literally. I was terrified by their treatment of me. I was gripped by what I now believe was a demonic fear...at the instigation by LC leadership. I thought there would be young men waiting outside the door to take my dead body away.

They told me to go somewhere and spend the rest of the night, or however long it took, to bare my soul to the Lord and clear up my horrible sinful behavior. The shame they had heaped on me was almost unbearable.

I went to a nearby park and, for safety, I hid myself. I began to pray and ask the Lord for guidance on what I had been accused of. A strange thing occurred. I didn't cry...I couldn't cry. I was calm. I tried to "confess". I did what the "elders" told me to do. There was nothing from the Lord. Nothing. I wondered if I was so bad that not even God would talk to me anymore. I didn't feel his absence. I felt his presence. No fear. Eventually, I just went home.

***

It wasn't until years later that I understood the reason God did not talk to me that night: He did not condemn me. My accusers accused me. The "elders" accused and condemned me, but God did not.

For years after that, I was driven by fear...not of godly fear, but fear of the "elders". I was afraid I would be ambushed again. I sat in the meetings and cried. Yes! I still went to the meetings! How bizzare is that?

***

Eventually, 4 of those 5 men gave all the membership the opportunity to talk with them and say whatever we needed to say. (Wow! They actually asked for feedback?)

I brought this event to their attention and asked why ... ? I told them what life had been like for me. I told them that their accusations didn't make sense to me...I didn't understand. I told them I had no idea they had a problem with me, until I was ambushed by them.

They apologized and admitted they were wrong. Four out of five repented. Whaaattt? Yep. The other one was not there, and never repented.

I don't know if this kind of thing still happens. It does confirm that God did not condemn me that night. It was a group of 5 men who admitted they were wrong.

By the way, one woman should NEVER be alone in a room with five men, for any reason. One woman should NEVER be alone in a room with ONE man who is not her husband.

I hope this helps someone. I feel sure I was not the only one who was terrified by the unrighteous discipline and punishment by Local Church leadership.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Years ago, I was called into a "little dark room" as I came to know it, by 5 men who were called "elders" and I was "disciplined." I was terrified that night. I was filled with a fear that influenced my walk with the Lord for years after it happened.

This whole sad story is just flat out wrong on so many levels. I'm so glad you have "recovered" from this mistreatment in the Recovery and the Comforter of the Lord has healed you, Nell. And thank you so much for sharing.

This ugly pattern was learned and duplicated from the top down. I doubt these elders would have treated you this way if they operated as an independent "local church, each answering to the Lord" as we were taught and sang in that song. (Hymns #824)

In this regard WL totally misrepresented God, a loving and righteous Father who cares for all of His children. Brutal and unrighteous abuses such as this were portrayed as "bearing the cross." This kind of unrestrained power thrust upon silent subservient devotees made monsters out of the leadership, all patterned by how WL treated his circle of lieutenants.

Moses misrepresented God when the Israelites were stubborn and naughty and he suffered loss. Then how about elders who misrepresent God to the little ones in their congregations who have done nothing wrong?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This whole sad story is just flat out wrong on so many levels. I'm so glad you have "recovered" from this mistreatment in the Recovery and the Comforter of the Lord has healed you, Nell. And thank you so much for sharing.

This ugly pattern was learned and duplicated from the top down. I doubt these elders would have treated you this way if they operated as an independent "local church, each answering to the Lord" as we were taught and sang in that song. (Hymns #824)

In this regard WL totally misrepresented God, a loving and righteous Father who cares for all of His children. Brutal and unrighteous abuses such as this were portrayed as "bearing the cross." This kind of unrestrained power thrust upon silent subservient devotees made monsters out of the leadership, all patterned by how WL treated his circle of lieutenants.

Moses misrepresented God when the Israelites were stubborn and naughty and he suffered loss. Then how about elders who misrepresent God to the little ones in their congregations who have done nothing wrong?

Thanks, Ohio. I appreciate your care and concern.

Nell

[Raptor]

The Bible clearly teaches 2 types or stages of being victorious:

1.) Victorious over unbelief - instantaneous, when you first believe, unconditional, by faith.
...this is the victory having overcome the world: our faith. 1 John 5:4.

2.) Victorious over Satan, the flesh, worldliness - takes time, throughout your entire life, conditional, by works.

....I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one. 1 John 2:14.

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Galatians 5:25.

Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 1 John 2:15.