Overcomer Doctrine (Merged Thread)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sorry Zezima, I'm just as confused as you are! Maybe we can all take a step back, take a deep breath, and review Z's opening post. A lot of time and energy was spent on the parable of the virgins, and as we can see, Zezima has already conceded the implications of this parable. But what about the other parables used by those who advocate this doctrine of 1,000 years of punishment for believers? What about the rest of the New Testament?

It would help if Zezima would post more on the thread. This is a topic far bigger than the Recovery. Few Christians hear about discipline by the Lord either in this life or the next. Most prefer to assign all discipline to the unsaved, or perhaps believe that Christians who "need discipline" can lose their salvation (have their names removed from the book of life.)

This is actually a topic where it seems like no two believers have identical views, at least that I have talked to. This topic opens the door to perhaps endless discussion on eschatological prophecies. So I would hope that Zezima would hang around more interjecting comments and questions, so that the thread does not wander around, which all threads tend to do over time.

Zezima [/COLOR]what was helpful? What specific questions do you have? What is your own understanding of the Bible? Have you spent any time studying this topic? Not to drill you with questions, but your input will help keep things "on topic."

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It would help if Zezima would post more on the thread. This is a topic far bigger than the Recovery.

Not that helpful, all the verses that point to it are parables and can be interpreted a lot of different ways. What if someone Interprets the parable wrong, and uses that interpretation to negate the doctrine?

I have studied the Bible about it, you can read into the tax in a lot of places and pull that doctrine out. But at the same time it’s not a doctrine I want to be wrong about if it is correct.

Do I as a Christian need to be in fear that I won’t be an overcomer, and there is only a certain amount of Christians or a select few Christians who are the Overcomers, or the man child? I’m not sure.

Someone can very well point to the parables to justify that doctrine. But how do we know those parables don’t justify that doctrine?

It’s tough.

[Ohio]

The parables are only one type of scripture that points to rewards/discipline for believers. What about the plain words of scripture concerning the judgment seat of Christ? (I Cor 3.12-17; I Cor 4.4-5; 2 Cor 5.19-11)

Your comments indicate that "overcomers" are a certain class of believers in the body of Christ. This definitely is the message we received from WL and the Blendeds, and furthermore, that they had a lock on the "club," since every other Christian "out there" was helplessly and hopelessly degraded, divided, and pitifully part of "poor, poor Christianity.'

But the Bible tells us of no such "club." Also, what the Lord expects from us is good works, obedience, and prudence doing the will of God, based on what He has given us to work with. Sins, failures, and mistakes do not disqualify us because our debt to the law of God was been paid for thru faith in His sacrifice for us on the cross.

As the Bible continues to exhort us, those who are pleasing to God and will receive His blessing are often those who keep getting up, who refuse to quit, who endure hardship, who suffer for the gospel and for righteousness, who stay encouraged in the Lord, who love and give to others, who keep their heart for the Lord.

It's far better to do something for the Lord everyday than to worry about the result. It's kind of like going to school. If you start out worrying about graduation, you'll never finish your course. Rather stay focused on each day's "assignments," go to class, study hard, and you'll arrive - step by step.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Not that helpful, all the verses that point to it are parables and can be interpreted a lot of different ways. What if someone Interprets the parable wrong, and uses that interpretation to negate the doctrine?

Zezima, are you still interested in this topic? The Lord purposefully spoke in parables many different times; He chose that route for several reasons. Is it hard? Yes it can be...Is it "risky", YES! But He still chose to do it that way. Thankfully, we have the whole Bible with many kinds of speakings, illustrations, descriptions, etc. to help to get a better understanding. There are other portions of Scripture that are not parables, that also talk about believers being judged and reward/discpline.

One that seems to get overlooked is in Matthew 6:14,15; this is after the "Lord´s prayer" in 6:9-13. So many people are familiar with the "Lord´s prayer." It is a very popoular portion of Scripture, not only for believers, but it is well known outside of christian circles, used in movies, etc. etc. YET, how many pay attention to verse 15? Now here it is absolutely clear that the Lord is speaking to believers: He is speaking to His disciples, teaching them how to pray and constantly refers to God as their Father, and even in verse 7 makes a distinction between them and the pagans or Gentiles.

But then He adds in 14 and 15:

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Zezima, are you still interested in this topic? The Lord purposefully spoke in parables many different times; He chose that route for several reasons. Is it hard? Yes it can be...Is it "risky", YES! But He still chose to do it that way. Thankfully, we have the whole Bible with many kinds of speakings, illustrations, descriptions, etc. to help to get a better understanding. There are other portions of Scripture that are not parables, that also talk about believers being judged and reward/discpline.

One that seems to get overlooked is in Matthew 6:14,15; this is after the "Lord´s prayer" in 6:9-13. So many people are familiar with the "Lord´s prayer." It is a very popoular portion of Scripture, not only for believers, but it is well known outside of christian circles, used in movies, etc. etc. YET, how many pay attention to verse 15? Now here it is absolutely clear that the Lord is speaking to believers: He is speaking to His disciples, teaching them how to pray and constantly refers to God as their Father, and even in verse 7 makes a distinction between them and the pagans or Gentiles.

But then He adds in 14 and 15:

For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.

Sure, if you take those two verses out of the context of the entire sermon, then it can be used to back your point up. LSM does this frequently, they cherry pick verses, take them out of the context that they were written in, and apply them to a bullet point.

Happy to discuss this more, but if you’re going to cherry pick…I’d rather not.

All of the commands in the New Testament point us to Jesus. Our position of victory over sin is by him and him alone.

[Trapped]

We don't have to belabor this point again, but I ran across a verse tonight that actually speaks specifically of false believers, so just wanted to put it here for the sake of adding it to that particular discussion.

Galatians 2:4-5
4 This matter arose because some false believers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves.
5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.

Various translations say false believers, false brothers, so-called believers, etc... (pseudadelphos)

Trapped

[Bible-believer]

I argued with a close saint regarding the overcomer doctrine earlier. And at that moment, I felt fury and deep sadness. During the argument, I realize lots of saints are suffering from the Stockholm syndrome without noticing it. They have been "kidnapped" and "brainwashed" by LR for too long.
No matter how many verses and proofs you show them, they end up defending Lee's teachings. They are so afraid of leaving LR to become the "defeated believers." LR makes them believe only LR could produce overcomers.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Bible-believer

I argued with a close saint regarding the overcomer doctrine earlier. And at that moment, I felt fury and deep sadness. During the argument, I realize lots of saints are suffering from the Stockholm syndrome without noticing it. They have been "kidnapped" and "brainwashed" by LR for too long.
No matter how many verses and proofs you show them, they end up defending Lee's teachings. They are so afraid of leaving LR to become the "defeated believers." LR makes them believe only LR could produce overcomers.

Recently I came across a great series of videos made by former Amish who traced their history back to their beginnings in Europe during the Reformation. Amish leaders, formerly imprisoned and tortured for their faith, after finding new liberties in America, used ordinances and traditions to subsequently imprison succeeding generations. I found the psychological implications quite fascinating.

The incredibly strong shackles of fear which keep their members “locked up” is overwhelming. Similar to the LC exodus, their liberty was enabled by reading, believing, and clinging to the Word of God. Their confining ordinances, regulating every part of daily life, were a blinding layer separating them from God and His word. The supposed benefits of sanctification, creating a race of Amish “overcomers,” actually we’re nothing more than chains to control each subsequent generation as they themselves had been. From infancy they are indoctrinated into believing that leaving the Amish results in eternal hellfire.

Uniformity is such a powerful substitute for the genuine oneness of the Spirit. While their outward attire appears homogenous to the outside world, subtle details distinguish them and expose how fractured their communities really are. Amish uniformity has merely created endless splintering and divisions, destroying even the bonds of family. If you want to see where the Recovery is headed, study other exclusive communities like the Amish, or the Plymouth Brethren.