"Against the Tide" by Angus Kinnear

UntoHim · 06-06-2008, 03:03 PM

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Imported from ProBoards Forum
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Posted by UntoHim
I used to have a paperback copy of this book. I remember (while still in the LC) sneaking into a Christian bookstore and thumbing through a copy...I thought my hair was going to catch on fire for looking at something without the name "Lee" or "LSM" on the cover.
Does anybody know if this is the only third party book that covers the subject of Watchman Nee or the Little Flock movement in China?

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Posted by Testing123
Hello, Unto. For a more critical perspective on Watchman Nee, you might try the two books written by Dana Roberts - "Understanding Watchman Nee" and "Secrets of Watchman Nee." Roberts was never associated with the Local Church. Personally, I don't like his books, especially the latter, which tries to be controversial in painting Watchman Nee as a philandering embezzler.
Norman Cliff wrote a very good book called "The Life and Theology of Watchman Nee: Including a Study of the Little Flock Movement," but it's rather hard to find. The few other biographies of Nee that I am aware of come from members of LC offshoots.Also, just as an aside - before his death, Angus Kinnear had been working on an extensive rewrite and expansion of "Against the Tide." One or two years ago, this was finished by his widow, Jean, and published in the UK. You can find it on amazon.co.uk or other British booksellers. The American edition is the same from the '70s. The new one benefits from years of further research and added source material. Interestingly, Witness Lee is thanked in the acknowledgments as one of the books' contributors.

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Posted by Norm
There is a biography in the Heroes of the Faith Series entitled Watchman Nee Man of Suffering by Bob Laurent; 1998; Barbour Pub.
Another book is Three of China's Mighty Men by Leslie Lyall; 2000; Christian Focus Pub.
Lastly, Watchman Nee's Testimony compiled by KH Weigh; 1974; Hong Kong Church Book Room LTD.
Norm

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Posted by UntoHim
Thanks Testing and Norm. I was aware of some sort of updated version of Against the Tide. "Philandering embezzler"? Wow, never heard that tag put on Nee before. I am aware of Nee being basically excommunicated from the Little Flock for going into business (and supossedly having a woman living with him - turned out to be his mother?!). I would sure like to see Stephen Kaung write some sort of biography - I think he may be one of only a few people alive who was actually there working closely with Nee in the Mainland during the Little Flock days. (I assume that there are some brothers and sisters still alive in China and Tiawan as well, but we are not likely to hear from them)
I have read all three of the references Norm provided, but did not find them very comprehensive at all.
Considering how Watchman Nee was unquestionably the "founder" of the Local Church movement (Lord's Recovery), I still find it amazing how little Witness Lee referred to Nee and the Little Flock churches of the 30s & 40s, at least for the last 25 or so years of his ministry. Maybe you brothers (testing and Norm) had a different view/understanding/experience in the earlier days. It is my understanding from some older brothers and sisters that Lee did indeed refer more to Nee and the Mainland experiences back in the Elden/Los Angeles days. I personally was quite dissapointed in Witness Lee's book "Seerer of the devine revelation"....thought it was a bit more a self serving work more then anything else. It was certainly not the comprehensive biography of Nee and the early Mainland years that it was cracked up to be.
Ok, don't mean to take this off track.
Just out of curiousity does Kinnear (who I understand was TA Sparks' son-in-law?) have any other blood relatives/associates that wrote regarding the early days in China?

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Posted by Norm
UntoHim,
The last three chapters of A Seer of the Divine... are actually a WL autobiography of his relatioship to WN.
Norm

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Posted by UntoHim
Thanks Norm. I am aware of that. The problem is that I no longer trust Witness Lee's account of hardly anything, unless there are multiple 3rd party witnesses (no pun intended). I used to blindly believe everything that came out of the man's mouth, (a mistake on my part) so now I have probably unfairly swung the pendulum the other way. Nevertheless, I think many ex (and current) Local Churchers are hungry for the truth...the plain, unadulterated truth regarding so much of the early history of the Local Church movement. I say this knowing full well that the "truth" of history is usually shaded to some degree by our individual perceptions and experiences - "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" as they say. The problem is that there has only been ONE version of the history that has been told in the Local Church. It is my clear and distinct recollection that other "versions" of historical events (other then Lee's version) were to be considered as "poison" and "handling death". As I now see it, the "truth" in and of itself can NEVER be poisonous or deadly - it is just the truth.

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Posted by Testing123
Unto, some scattered thoughts:
In the second Roberts book, the author implies that Nee was involved with prostitutes, as well as having improper relationships with young sisters in Shanghai. He also suggests that Nee used his ministry to funnel money into his own pocket for the lavish, decadent lifestyle he enjoyed in private. It is really a stunning departure away from anything serious ever previously written on Nee, and I sincerely believe that these accusations are well beyond silliness. As far as I know, Roberts is the only "scholar" to have adopted this line of rhetoric - what was, in fact, the Communist Party's attack against Nee used to shut down his ministry behind a semblance of legality.
Stephen Kaung, as a matter of principle (so as not to improperly elevate a man), has chosen not to write or publish a biography of Nee. However, he did write a very extensive biographical introduction at the beginning of the first volume of The Finest of the Wheat published by CFP. In and of itself, it is long enough to constitute a slim book if published on its own.
Regarding Witness Lee, I agree with you that he did refer to Watchman Nee to a greater extent in the earlier days of the Local Church movement in the USA. There might be several possible explanations for this, but I won't conjecture further on that point just yet. I'm also not particularly fond of his work on Nee's life, having always found it confusing the way in which he organized it into chapters illustrating broad principles about Nee's behavior or experience, rather than in a standard chronological format.
You are correct that Jean Kinnear, the widow of Angus Kinnear, is the daughter of T. Austin-Sparks. The last I heard, she is still living in London. As far as I know, Kinnear (now referring to Angus) was never himself in Mainland China, having met Nee in the 1930s when he spent significant time at Honor Oak in England. Kinnear would later go on to serve many years of medical missionary work in India where he was involved with the Bakht Singh movement. It was there, in Bombay, that he first started publishing his own editions of Watchman Nee, which he edited together from notes compiled of Nee's speaking in England and Denmark. Angus Kinnear was very much spiritually related to T. Austin-Sparks and the other workers coming out of that center in England. However, none of those brothers ever worked with Nee directly.
James Chen, who was an elder in the church in Hong Kong, and an associate of both Nee and Lee, wrote a little book in the 1970s called Meet Brother Nee in which he, for whatever reason, seeks to drive home the idea that Nee considered Austin-Sparks his spiritual authority and had checked with him for advice at the collapse of the Chinese Republic. Gene Edwards would later publish a series of messages spoken by Chen in California under the title The Passing of the Torch in order to bolster his own delusions of grandeur that the "torch" had at some point been passed from the Little Flock on to his own personal "house church" following.

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Posted by UntoHim
Amazing stuff to be sure. I think this all plays into Nee's intense desire to see the Chinese church (body of churches) be raised up apart from traditional Christianity and return to a more biblically based organization (cf: locality law). Being the smart and practical man that he was, Nee realized that he needed money to raise up, train and supply a team of co-workers, and the only way that he could figure to do this was start/assist in a western style, profitable business. (he took the apostle Paul's "tentmaker" example and expanded upon it) So I really don't know if it was a matter of simple jealousy or that those co-workers really and truely believe that Nee abdicated from the faith. These kinds of things would be virtually impossible for an outsider to know so I think Dana Roberts is quite off base in what he wrote in this regard.

06-06-2008, 03:03 PM	#1
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	"Against the Tide" by Angus Kinnear -------------------------------------------- Imported from ProBoards Forum -------------------------------------------- Posted by UntoHim I used to have a paperback copy of this book. I remember (while still in the LC) sneaking into a Christian bookstore and thumbing through a copy...I thought my hair was going to catch on fire for looking at something without the name "Lee" or "LSM" on the cover. Does anybody know if this is the only third party book that covers the subject of Watchman Nee or the Little Flock movement in China? ---------------------------------------------------- Posted by Testing123 Hello, Unto. For a more critical perspective on Watchman Nee, you might try the two books written by Dana Roberts - "Understanding Watchman Nee" and "Secrets of Watchman Nee." Roberts was never associated with the Local Church. Personally, I don't like his books, especially the latter, which tries to be controversial in painting Watchman Nee as a philandering embezzler. Norman Cliff wrote a very good book called "The Life and Theology of Watchman Nee: Including a Study of the Little Flock Movement," but it's rather hard to find. The few other biographies of Nee that I am aware of come from members of LC offshoots.Also, just as an aside - before his death, Angus Kinnear had been working on an extensive rewrite and expansion of "Against the Tide." One or two years ago, this was finished by his widow, Jean, and published in the UK. You can find it on amazon.co.uk or other British booksellers. The American edition is the same from the '70s. The new one benefits from years of further research and added source material. Interestingly, Witness Lee is thanked in the acknowledgments as one of the books' contributors. -------------------------------------------------- Posted by Norm There is a biography in the Heroes of the Faith Series entitled Watchman Nee Man of Suffering by Bob Laurent; 1998; Barbour Pub. Another book is Three of China's Mighty Men by Leslie Lyall; 2000; Christian Focus Pub. Lastly, Watchman Nee's Testimony compiled by KH Weigh; 1974; Hong Kong Church Book Room LTD. Norm --------------------------------------------------- Posted by UntoHim Thanks Testing and Norm. I was aware of some sort of updated version of Against the Tide. "Philandering embezzler"? Wow, never heard that tag put on Nee before. I am aware of Nee being basically excommunicated from the Little Flock for going into business (and supossedly having a woman living with him - turned out to be his mother?!). I would sure like to see Stephen Kaung write some sort of biography - I think he may be one of only a few people alive who was actually there working closely with Nee in the Mainland during the Little Flock days. (I assume that there are some brothers and sisters still alive in China and Tiawan as well, but we are not likely to hear from them) I have read all three of the references Norm provided, but did not find them very comprehensive at all. Considering how Watchman Nee was unquestionably the "founder" of the Local Church movement (Lord's Recovery), I still find it amazing how little Witness Lee referred to Nee and the Little Flock churches of the 30s & 40s, at least for the last 25 or so years of his ministry. Maybe you brothers (testing and Norm) had a different view/understanding/experience in the earlier days. It is my understanding from some older brothers and sisters that Lee did indeed refer more to Nee and the Mainland experiences back in the Elden/Los Angeles days. I personally was quite dissapointed in Witness Lee's book "Seerer of the devine revelation"....thought it was a bit more a self serving work more then anything else. It was certainly not the comprehensive biography of Nee and the early Mainland years that it was cracked up to be. Ok, don't mean to take this off track. Just out of curiousity does Kinnear (who I understand was TA Sparks' son-in-law?) have any other blood relatives/associates that wrote regarding the early days in China? ---------------------------------- Posted by Norm UntoHim, The last three chapters of A Seer of the Divine... are actually a WL autobiography of his relatioship to WN. Norm -------------------------------- Posted by UntoHim Thanks Norm. I am aware of that. The problem is that I no longer trust Witness Lee's account of hardly anything, unless there are multiple 3rd party witnesses (no pun intended). I used to blindly believe everything that came out of the man's mouth, (a mistake on my part) so now I have probably unfairly swung the pendulum the other way. Nevertheless, I think many ex (and current) Local Churchers are hungry for the truth...the plain, unadulterated truth regarding so much of the early history of the Local Church movement. I say this knowing full well that the "truth" of history is usually shaded to some degree by our individual perceptions and experiences - "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" as they say. The problem is that there has only been ONE version of the history that has been told in the Local Church. It is my clear and distinct recollection that other "versions" of historical events (other then Lee's version) were to be considered as "poison" and "handling death". As I now see it, the "truth" in and of itself can NEVER be poisonous or deadly - it is just the truth. ----------------------------------------- Posted by Testing123 Unto, some scattered thoughts: In the second Roberts book, the author implies that Nee was involved with prostitutes, as well as having improper relationships with young sisters in Shanghai. He also suggests that Nee used his ministry to funnel money into his own pocket for the lavish, decadent lifestyle he enjoyed in private. It is really a stunning departure away from anything serious ever previously written on Nee, and I sincerely believe that these accusations are well beyond silliness. As far as I know, Roberts is the only "scholar" to have adopted this line of rhetoric - what was, in fact, the Communist Party's attack against Nee used to shut down his ministry behind a semblance of legality. Stephen Kaung, as a matter of principle (so as not to improperly elevate a man), has chosen not to write or publish a biography of Nee. However, he did write a very extensive biographical introduction at the beginning of the first volume of The Finest of the Wheat published by CFP. In and of itself, it is long enough to constitute a slim book if published on its own. Regarding Witness Lee, I agree with you that he did refer to Watchman Nee to a greater extent in the earlier days of the Local Church movement in the USA. There might be several possible explanations for this, but I won't conjecture further on that point just yet. I'm also not particularly fond of his work on Nee's life, having always found it confusing the way in which he organized it into chapters illustrating broad principles about Nee's behavior or experience, rather than in a standard chronological format. You are correct that Jean Kinnear, the widow of Angus Kinnear, is the daughter of T. Austin-Sparks. The last I heard, she is still living in London. As far as I know, Kinnear (now referring to Angus) was never himself in Mainland China, having met Nee in the 1930s when he spent significant time at Honor Oak in England. Kinnear would later go on to serve many years of medical missionary work in India where he was involved with the Bakht Singh movement. It was there, in Bombay, that he first started publishing his own editions of Watchman Nee, which he edited together from notes compiled of Nee's speaking in England and Denmark. Angus Kinnear was very much spiritually related to T. Austin-Sparks and the other workers coming out of that center in England. However, none of those brothers ever worked with Nee directly. James Chen, who was an elder in the church in Hong Kong, and an associate of both Nee and Lee, wrote a little book in the 1970s called Meet Brother Nee in which he, for whatever reason, seeks to drive home the idea that Nee considered Austin-Sparks his spiritual authority and had checked with him for advice at the collapse of the Chinese Republic. Gene Edwards would later publish a series of messages spoken by Chen in California under the title The Passing of the Torch in order to bolster his own delusions of grandeur that the "torch" had at some point been passed from the Little Flock on to his own personal "house church" following. ---------------------------------------------------- Posted by UntoHim Amazing stuff to be sure. I think this all plays into Nee's intense desire to see the Chinese church (body of churches) be raised up apart from traditional Christianity and return to a more biblically based organization (cf: locality law). Being the smart and practical man that he was, Nee realized that he needed money to raise up, train and supply a team of co-workers, and the only way that he could figure to do this was start/assist in a western style, profitable business. (he took the apostle Paul's "tentmaker" example and expanded upon it) So I really don't know if it was a matter of simple jealousy or that those co-workers really and truely believe that Nee abdicated from the faith. These kinds of things would be virtually impossible for an outsider to know so I think Dana Roberts is quite off base in what he wrote in this regard.