Can I be candid?

[Guest M]

This is not a bad take, and certainly one I've not heard before. Thanks for sharing.

While I won't get too much into it, there's another perspective I'd add.

First, in the Hebrew scriptures, lore and mythology out of which the Bible stories in Christianity came, Eve is not even Adam's first wife: it is Lilith. Lilith is discarded because she refused to lie under Adam when he insisted (apparently it was an argument over sexual position, to be clear, and what that symbolized). She departs from Eden, and then Adam is given a more subservient wife, while she wanders, tormented and enraged by the attempted domination, rejection of her equal status and partnership, and then replacement.

How I read this? Personally, me being who I am and having experienced what I have, I read this story as acknowledging rape to be THE original sin. Mankind is guilty, and has been since the beginning, of treating other human beings (and other forms of life, too) as things to be used; guilty of subjugating others by virtue of overpowering, instead twisting the intended harmony of life. Humans of all genders have been suffering from this deep spiritual wound and sin ever since. Lilith is mentioned in the Christian Bible, but only as a passing reference. That's who she actually is, and there's a whole body of lore around her.

She eventually was made into a demon who forever after punished men basically with the power of sexual shame, and ate children. I read this as the subconscious acknowledgement that man knows it is guilty of this original sin, and dreams fearfully that there will be a day it will have to face revenge. However, he misses the hurt and desire for reconciliation that is so obvious.) The origins of Lilith, however, also place her as a goddess in Sumerian and Babylonian mythology, and of course in recent times she was reclaimed by feminists, especially in Dianic (goddess-centered) neo-paganism. (

In case you were wondering, that's not my brand of neo-paganism. it's just that paganism is one of the few modern religions that actually pays any attention at all to women's mysteries and the feminine divine, which has been written out of most of the other major world religions.)

Her story is very interesting, but what I find most interesting are the implications to me of the way that tree and serpent story came about. Likewise, other stories around the world, around the same time, generate explanations as to why the subjugation of women is justified. They are very revealing. I could not help seeing that even when I first heard these stories as a little Christian.

Secondly, the "serpent" has had an interesting journey, too. The serpent is and has been a power symbol and power animal in many ancient cultures, symbolizing the circle of life, or the eternity of time. This is because it sheds its skin and makes itself anew. Images of goddesses and powerful women in early cultures can be found with serpents, symbolizing her power of life. The presence of the serpent can be intended to say something about the figure it appears with. How it became a character on its own, must have been an interesting cultural evolution.

This, like the first wife of Adam, I find intriguing because you can learn something by the way stories change over time, reinterpreting symbols from positive to negative, or negative to positive, depending on the social changes and needs of the time. Some of these folkloric symbols have had an associated meaning for so long, that they have become assumed to have always had that meaning. I ask, what does that story mean, if it were to be read this way?

I do not present with this bit of nerd knowledge a particular different reading of that story, as I don't totally have one yet; I just find it interesting to know. and personally, one thing I learned a lot from, since folklore is kind of my thing, is understanding stories, their histories, how they change and what they reveal, most importantly, about the people who tell them.

No offense meant to those who take these stories literally; for myself, I read them for the wisdom lying in the symbolism, and what they say about the cultural context they came from. It makes sense to me. And I enjoy that exploration; it is in those gaps of questions that I find the poignancy of spiritual growth and search. Incidentally, if I took ANY early myths (meaning stories, not "lies") literally, I would not be able to be a pagan, since despicable actions by deities are rampant in pretty much all cultures!

I have often wondered why the early Israelites eventually became monotheistic. I haven't ever understood that, except it appears that it was a situation of identifying with a tribal deity. But they were originally polytheistic, which is why they discouraged worshiping other gods, instead of claiming there WERE no other gods.

/Pagan nerd moment

Originally Posted by Nell

Hi KNB,

From another one-of-few women on the forum, Welcome! I'm a lilly-white former baptist but I try not to take that too seriously. I was in the LC for about 15 years in Houston, New Orleans, Austin, Oklahoma City, Minneapolis, San Antonio, then OUT! I think that's all

I'm sorry for all you've suffered in your life. I can't even imagine the pain you've experienced. I have been helped by the Lord in the last few years to put some of this insanity into perspective.

I'm retired now, but I worked most of my life in the technology industry. For the last few years I was a network engineer. As such, I developed a "mind-set" to solve technical problems. On a big computer network, there are sometimes "big problems." Big problems most often can't be solved by one person, or on a superficial level. An often used term is "root cause." You have to find the root cause of a problem before you can hope to solve it.

The problems you have eloquently described in your 2 posts are so big that they are hard to understand much less solve. Where do you start? The root cause is so well hidden that ultimately people turn away from God altogether because He started this whole mess, so it must be His fault. As you have noted, most of the ugliness is man-centric and most definitely ungodly.

The Bible helped me to put this big problem in its place and this has become my perspective of the root cause:

Gen. 3:14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Serpent was cursed by God because he deceived the woman. (As an excuse to mistreat women, some will try to tell you that the woman, Eve, was cursed because she was deceived. Before you buy into that, demand proof. Scriptural proof that Eve was cursed. I can't find such a verse.) The Serpent was cursed because he lied to the woman. He's still lying. Because God cursed him, He was enraged with a seething, bitter hatred of the woman which would worsen until he meets his final end (as God told him he would). The Serpent determined to take revenge on her and do her in before he experienced the final bruise of his own head. That also means, the Serpent has determined to take revenge on YOU before you can bruise his disgusting head.

KNB, you have told us about your experience of this raging, bitter hatred perpetrated by the Serpent and carried out by mankind. In your two posts, you have described it to perfection. Your story of pain and suffering, perpetrated by others upon you could not have originated in the hearts of man...it's too evil. It must be the evil nature of Satan himself who masterminded his revenge upon you. How do we know this for sure? Genesis 3 is clear. Got put enmity between the woman and the Serpent. You could say that God made you and the Serpent enemies and the Serpent declared WAR on you. This war has been declared by the Serpent, but his boots on the ground are worn by men and sometimes other women...even Christians. He is coming after you, and he is unrelenting. He is still deceiving men and women to carry out his hatred on women and men of the world. He truly hates all mankind.

Yet the Serpent is doomed. He was defeated on the cross of Jesus! Past tense. He was defeated. But his final end is yet to come when he is thrown into the lake of fire. Regardless, he is doomed and, KNB, IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT. At least in his own pathetic mind, he blames you. In fact, his fate is self-inflicted. He stuck it to himself.

So, there's my take on the root cause for all that is wrong in this world. You described it to perfection and there it is in the Bible...in the very beginning it's spelled out. If you want to review how it all ends, check out Revelation 12. It's a woman! Maybe you, me and CMW are part of that Revelation 12 woman. I don't know how it's all going to shake down, but there are many opinions, mostly by men who think they know everything. They don't. Some think they have the be-all-end-all interpretation of the Bible. They don't. We'll know when it actually happens.

I hope this helps.

Nell