Antichrist - Alien & Technology Discussion

[Sons to Glory!]

This is certainly not an "article of the faith" topic by any means. However, I seem to be seeing a trend in things, and I wondered if there are others on here who are thinking in a similar way. (I'm not the first by any means - one can certainly find other Christians who have written books, or have websites, that are thinking like this too.)

Two areas I'm considering:

1) Many view science and technology as being the ultimate savior of mankind. The explosion of technology is astounding. And we are getting into some pretty far out things such as advanced artificial intelligence, biogenics and the manipulation thereof, and even paring the two together.

2) At the same time humans have an extreme fascination with space and the possibility of extra-terrestrials. This is fueled all the more with the reports of unexplained phenomena such as UFOs, alien abduction, crop circles, etc.

I am beginning to have the thought that the way many will be deceived will be a combining of the two above things. It will very hard to resist if someone shows up who can demonstrate an absolute superior mastery of technology (apparently producing life itself?), and appears to come from light years away, who lays claim and responsibility for mankind being here . . .

Thoughts? Has this been discussed before here?

[Suannehill]

It has been my belief for years that UFO's etc are demonic manifestations...the scenerio you are describing makes perfect sense. I feel that all of the above is preparing people to accept it all without question.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

1) Many view science and technology as being the ultimate savior of mankind.

Or the ultimate destruction of humankind. As science has produced some wonderful things, but also, don't forget, the worst kind of WMDs ever created. The count of nuclear warheads in the world in 2009 was over 23,000.

We took even the destruction of the world away from God.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This is certainly not an "article of the faith" topic by any means. However, I seem to be seeing a trend in things, and I wondered if there are others on here who are thinking in a similar way. (I'm not the first by any means - one can certainly find other Christians who have written books, or have websites, that are thinking like this too.)

Two areas I'm considering:

1) Many view science and technology as being the ultimate savior of mankind. The explosion of technology is astounding. And we are getting into some pretty far out things such as advanced artificial intelligence, biogenics and the manipulation thereof, and even paring the two together.

2) At the same time humans have an extreme fascination with space and the possibility of extra-terrestrials. This is fueled all the more with the reports of unexplained phenomena such as UFOs, alien abduction, crop circles, etc.

I am beginning to have the thought that the way many will be deceived will be a combining of the two above things. It will very hard to resist if someone shows up who can demonstrate an absolute superior mastery of technology (apparently producing life itself?), and appears to come from light years away, who lays claim and responsibility for mankind being here . . .

Thoughts? Has this been discussed before here?

I watched a special on the great pyramid recently. In it they pointed out that there were over 2,000,000 stones each weighing on average 2 tons. In order to lay those in place it would require one stone every 3 minutes being put in place non stop for 30 years. They also showed video of the inside of the pyramid where you could see how incredibly fine these stones were cut. The seems were amazing. Now they were trying to give a theory on how this could have been done. I have seen many theories, but don't buy any of them. Some of the biggest stones in the great pyramid were granite and were 60 tons in weight. There are other stones that were put in place in some other structures the Egyptians built that were around 200 tons.

Personally I find all of the theories presented so far totally ridiculous. For example, they say that they were cutting these stones using copper wire and sand grains. They demonstrated how two people working very hard could, after hours of very difficult labor, get a cut close to an inch into the rock, though not granite, a softer rock. The problem was they didn't even completely cut out one stone weighing 2 tons and yet we're supposed to believe they cut 2,000,000 of them, at a rate of one every 3 minutes? Also, although it did appear that given a good whip, two guys could cut a stone at about a quarter of an inch per hour, the problem was that the result was not as clean a cut as the joints you can see inside the pyramid. So they never demonstrated how they got such clean and straight cuts. Also, they were cutting limestone, a rock much softer than the granite blocks on the inside of the pyramid.

How do slaves lift a stone weighing 200 tons and put it in place? The pulley and lever contraptions they suggest would take a day to set up and move a large stone, they were plopping these stones down every three minutes.

The US would go bankrupt if they tried to build the pyramids today, how is it that the Egyptians could do it thousands of years ago?

How did they see inside the passageways inside the pyramid? If they used torches we would expect to see soot on the walls, but we don't find any soot.

Today we don't use 60 ton blocks of granite or 200 ton blocks of stone because the machinery to move such things would be incredibly massive. yet we are supposed to believe that slaves with ropes and sticks were pulling these things across the desert?

Many questions, so far, no answers.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

It has been my belief for years that UFO's etc are demonic manifestations...the scenerio you are describing makes perfect sense. I feel that all of the above is preparing people to accept it all without question.

I ran across this website that deals specifically with UFO phenomena. It is run by believers. There are many, many testimonies by Christians that got involved with it (sightings, abductions, etc.) and say that the whole thing is demonic. http://alienresistance.org/dtelect.htm (see here for the testimonies page: http://alienresistance.org/ce4testimonies.htm ) It is my consideration that it is a major strategy of the enemy, and it's all building up to the biggest hoodwinking of mankind ever. Talk about your conspiracy theories!!!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I watched a special on the great pyramid recently. In it they pointed out that there were over 2,000,000 stones each weighing on average 2 tons. In order to lay those in place it would require one stone every 3 minutes being put in place non stop for 30 years. They also showed video of the inside of the pyramid where you could see how incredibly fine these stones were cut. The seems were amazing. Now they were trying to give a theory on how this could have been done. I have seen many theories, but don't buy any of them. Some of the biggest stones in the great pyramid were granite and were 60 tons in weight. There are other stones that were put in place in some other structures the Egyptians built that were around 200 tons.

Yup. A super being comes from space demonstrating far superior abilities and technology. They say they were the ones that helped the Egyptians build these, and they were worshipped. Anyone who has not experienced Christ would be an idiot not to believe such a display - right?!

Reminds me of the movie Stargate, where aliens were responsible for the pyramids. (Do you think the enemy uses Hollywood and TV to channel ideas like this - programming us for the future?)

[Sons to Glory!]

Well I just watched a DVD I got from the library that was pretty surreal, given the discussion here. The title is "What on Earth? Inside the crop circle mystery." These things are most prevalent and quite prolific in south England, but have been observed all over the world. The video appears to be made by a New Age person, as she has a lot of these types of folks speaking.

While a few of these things are made by humans (usually as hoaxes), the ones that are the big mystery don't exhibit any signs of mechanical makings (which the man made ones do). Their construction and vastly intricate geometry, I'm convinced, are not of this world (or more accurately, not of this physical dimension). Plus the shear number of these things appearing would keep several huge team of people and equipment very, very busy. And it all happens at night, with no evidence of those responsible ever found.

According to the DVD, there seems to be an energy inside these things that interferes with electronics, such as cell phones and cameras. The New Agers go completely goofy with this stuff. They even claim several healings when people are standing in these things.

What is really alarming is some of the things that were said on the DVD. In referring to the phenomena, the DVD producer said, "It has the power to transform the world if we would just let it." Yikes! They believe a UFOer will come to reveal themselves and take responsibility for all of this (i.e., creation). They kept talking about a new transition that will happen to world. They think humans will very soon transcend to another plane. There were several references to many eastern religions, and the Mayan calendar (no mention of Jesus, and only one mention of the Bible). At the end it asks, "Are we being prepared for contact?" Lord Jesus have mercy - they don't know what they are saying!

And here's something I found particularly interesting. They talked several times about two views that had been divergent, but now are coming together. One view is scientific materialism; the other is concerning spiritism. This is almost exactly what I said were the two areas I perceived that are converging, which I stated at the start of this thread. (I hadn't seen this video at that point.) But on the DVD they say that the two are coming together, and it will likely be fully manifested by this coming extra-terrestrial! Wow - is that a setup or what?!

[Suannehill]

It seems so clear...Lord Jesus be merciful!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

They believe a UFOer will come to reveal themselves and take responsibility for all of this (i.e., creation). They kept talking about a new transition that will happen to world. They think humans will very soon transcend to another plane.

Well I read a lot. And I went thru a Zecharia Sitchin period. Sitchin translates Sumerian hieroglyphics, and tells of how "the gods" came from outer space, and mixed their DNA with that of apes, and in some cases mud, to create the human race ... and the purpose of that human race was, to serve the gods.

But I'm one that don't put a lot of stock in what others have to say. People can be wacky and see wacky. One of my neighbors, for example, goes up to the restaurant and fights with invisible people, that he acts like he sees, but nobody else sees.

I have to encounter it for myself to really buy into it.

And I'm insulted. I must not be outer-space-peoples kind of material. They've never visited me, and I never seen their spacecrafts, and have never been abducted, or had my orifices probed. I'm a space alien's reject.

But I'm not superstitious about all the possibilities of UFOs. We may not be inclined to admit it, or even see it, but we're space aliens. The earth is every bit in outerspace as any of the so far discovered 125 billion galaxies.

And if outer-space-people exist why should we just assume they would be demons? Cuz in truth they'd qualify as neighbors that we should love.

[countmeworthy]

Last year I began listening to George Noory on Coast to Coast AM. He's on very late at night and Thank God for You Tube because it is mucho easier for me to listen to his program there ! He took Art Bell's place for those of you who might have heard of Art Bell.

One of the topics he & his guests and callers discuss are UFOs, Alien Abductions, the supernatural, high tech, and so much more. He has very intelligent scholars both True Christians and non-Christians. George is a big fan of the late Zecharia Sitchin (Awareness). While he had some interesting theories, I don't know enough about him to form an opinion. I don't believe he was a true born again believer though.

One thing I have learned in recent years is the difference between Fallen Angels and Demons. Sometimes people interchange the 2 entities but they are not the same.

I have learned the phrase 'Sons of God' in the OT refer to Angels but in the NT 'Sons of God' refer to God's people, the Believers.

The sons of God in Genesis 6 were fallen angels. When they took the form of men & married the ungodly women, they produced Nephelim or giants. We are told in Luke 17:26, And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

So if fallen angels were having sex w/ungodly women in the days of Noah, so shall it happen again in the last days before Christ returns. (Christ returns in 2 stages: The Rapture FOR the saints and His Second coming at the battle of Armegeddon WITH the saints.)

When exactly will the fallen angels & the ungodly begin to produce Nephelim is not clear BUT I have discovered that the Alien Abductions are fallen angels trying to mix the seed of the serpent with humans and produce a hybrid race (Nephelim) Remember....Satan is a counterfeit, a liar, a thief, a murderer, a deceiver, a destroyer.

Brothers in Christ such as Chuck Missler, Perry Stone, L.A. Marzulli, Stan Deyo, Steve Quayle and others have enlightened me immensely on this subject.

Here are some interesting websites for those interested:
LAMarzulli.net
StanDeyo.com
SteveQualye.com
www.nephilim.nl (Chuck Missler)

You can also YouTube Chuck Missler & Perry Stone for their biblical explanations on the Nephelim. LA Marzulli, Steve Quale and Stan Deyo have been interviewed on C2C as has Chuck but the last time I heard Chuck on C2C, he was either very tired or is getting up there in years as he rambled more than give information.

[awareness]

Great post CMW. Thanks for the links and info. But where does it say that the women that the "sons of God" took as wives were "ungodly?" All I see is that they were "fair" or pretty. And why weren't "the sons of God" called outright "fallen angels?"

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great post CMW. Thanks for the links and info. But where does it say that the women that the "sons of God" took as wives were "ungodly?" All I see is that they were "fair" or pretty."

See post #88 in "an outsiders story" that should clear this up for you.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

And I'm insulted. I must not be outer-space-peoples kind of material. They've never visited me, and I never seen their spacecrafts, and have never been abducted, or had my orifices probed. I'm a space alien's reject.

Hey Harold,
Don't consider yourself insulted if you've never been visited or abducted...that is God's protection over you. No weapon formed against you Awareness is going to prosper...unless you choose to forsake your Faith and Trust in Jesus Christ.

I have a book "The Alien Interviews" & a DVD 'The Watchers -#1) by LA Marzulli on alien abduction interviews. As I went through the interviews and read about their horrific experiences, I kept looking for clues if any of these people believed in and trusted in the Blood of Jesus.

LA asks a person who had been abducted the following question:
How successful have you been in fighting them off ?

Answer: That comment makes me want to cry and laugh at the same time. There is no way to fight them. They control your mind and your body. Even when I prayed to God to make them stop, nothing happened; they kept on with their agenda.

Intersting I thought. But nothing on calling upon JESUS or on His Blood. Since I KNOW first hand the Power of the Blood of the Lamb, I was not surprised nothing happened when he 'prayed'.

Praying to God is not enough. If this person had called on the Name above Every Name, JESUS to save him from these evil aliens, He would have rescued him. I KNOW because I have been physically attacked by demons, or maybe they were aliens (fallen angels) because demons possess a person, they go inside of objects, people or animals. Fallen angels/aliens do not.

I am certain the entities I encountered were not trying to get inside my body. So maybe what I thought were demons were really ALIENS/Fallen angels. Chuckle if you want but really. I am now wondering knowing what I know NOW, if indeed I was visited by aliens. And AWARENESS: NO ! Don't even think for one nano second I was 'lucky' ! I would MUCH RATHER BE visited by GOD HIMSELF than a gross, filthy, ugly, evil, wicked thing !

I have never seen an evil entity but I have felt them walk towards me and that presence is so incredibly evil, words can't express. Yet every time I felt that evil presence walking towards me (in my bedroom, through an entry way) I always said "Lord Jesus. Sprinkle Your Blood on this room and on me." Those evil creatures would IMMEDIATELY leave. I also want to emphasize, they WALKED towards me. As they or it (don't know if there was more than one) got closer, the evil presence got stronger. Only once did I miss the thing walking towards me because I was in a deep sleep. But what happened to me, was it grabbed hold of my throat. It was not sleep paralysis because I felt a huge gross monster like entity next to my bed with it's ugly, filthy hands on my throat & its' evil presence hovering over me.

I could not speak, that is open my mouth. But with my HEART and with my MIND, I began to say "Jesus". I kept saying "Jesus" with my mind and heart. Then I felt the grip loosen on my throat. As it began to remove its' hedious hands off me, I began to whisper "JESUS". It began to step away and as it did I began to speak the Name of Jesus until I found myself YELLING "JESUS" "JESUS" "LORD JESUS". That thing immediately disappeared but I was left a bit shaken.

To my recollection, that was the last time a demon/alien has walked into my room and that was about 5 yrs ago.

So I KNOW first hand the Power of the NAME of JESUS and I KNOW first hand the Power of His Blood.

Sorry to have changed lanes, back to the interviews, I finally found some one who had victory over the alien !

LA: What did the thing look like?

L.G.: A silver glos, but it wasn't bright and sunny. It was lit up. It had the wickedest spirit I have ever felt. I couldn't say anyting; my voice was choked...I couldn't make it work. [sounds like what happened to me in my room!] I was paralyzed with fear. It overwhelmed me. I knew the only thing I could do was plead the Blood of Jesus. I kept repeating it over & over. Little by little it faded away. It went into nothing and was gone. And all of its wickedness went with it.

This person's experience was very similar to mine only I never opened my eyes to look at the thing choking me. The other entities that came towards me were invisible to my eyes but I sensed them or it WALKING towards me.

I have had about 5-6 of these demonic encounters in my lifetime AFTER becoming a Christian. 3 of those times, I lived a luke warm life..would not let go of hidden sin. The other 2-3 times, they were simply out to steal, kill and destroy me. I don't think they were too happy with how I had totally turned my life around & surrendered it to Jesus Christ purposing in my heart to live a sanctified life by the Help and Power of His Holy Spirit working in me. Certainly NOT by my own strength ! Lord knows that doesn't work !

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Great post CMW. Thanks for the links and info. But where does it say that the women that the "sons of God" took as wives were "ungodly?" All I see is that they were "fair" or pretty. And why weren't "the sons of God" called outright "fallen angels?"

Oh I'm sorry. Do you mean to say only UGLY women are ungodly ??? Now do you think these ugly creatures are going to go after ugly women ?

The point is.......if the women were GODLY, they would not have been approached by these creatures OR if they had, the GODLY women would have driven them away by their commitment to GOD.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well I read a lot. And I went thru a Zecharia Sitchin period. Sitchin translates Sumerian hieroglyphics, and tells of how "the gods" came from outer space, and mixed their DNA with that of apes, and in some cases mud, to create the human race ... and the purpose of that human race was, to serve the gods.

But I'm one that don't put a lot of stock in what others have to say. People can be wacky and see wacky. One of my neighbors, for example, goes up to the restaurant and fights with invisible people, that he acts like he sees, but nobody else sees.

I have to encounter it for myself to really buy into it.

And I'm insulted. I must not be outer-space-peoples kind of material. They've never visited me, and I never seen their spacecrafts, and have never been abducted, or had my orifices probed. I'm a space alien's reject.

But I'm not superstitious about all the possibilities of UFOs. We may not be inclined to admit it, or even see it, but we're space aliens. The earth is every bit in outerspace as any of the so far discovered 125 billion galaxies.

And if outer-space-people exist why should we just assume they would be demons? Cuz in truth they'd qualify as neighbors that we should love.

Check out the testimonies of Christians regarding UFO encounters here: http://alienresistance.org/ce4testimonies.htm Many testify that after seeing the things (including those appearing as ghosts, dead loved ones, etc.) and having encounters with other beings for some time, that by turning to the Lord these things go away permanently! They want nothing to do with Jesus Christ!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Check out the testimonies of Christians regarding UFO encounters here: http://alienresistance.org/ce4testimonies.htm Many testify that after seeing the things (including those appearing as ghosts, dead loved ones, etc.) and having encounters with other beings for some time, that by turning to the Lord these things go away permanently! They want nothing to do with Jesus Christ!

I thought there were very interesting historical accounts back at the time of the black plague that describe flying disks spraying a mist in areas that had outbreaks of the plague in the next 6 months. I find that more interesting to current accounts because it is hard for me to imagine that those who observed this could have understood the implication.

Also, the accounts describing what has now come to have been known as "the grim reaper" is a reasonable description of a guy in a hazmat suit spraying poison as a mist from a wand. These guys were seen as a harbinger of death.

However, if this or other plagues is really the result of chemical or biological warfare it is interesting to try and infer motive. These events are hardly more than a speed bump in man's exponential growth so it is hard for me to imagine that the real motive was to wipe out man. However, what the plague did do was speed the spread of colonialism. The US sweep through N America is a great example of how these diseases that we had developed an immunity to wiped out all the indigenous people in our path.

Any way, the numerous historical accounts documented in newspapers, woodcuts, and other publications prior to the invention of flying machines is, to my mind, very interesting and very puzzling.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

See post #88 in "an outsiders story" that should clear this up for you.

Originally Posted by Post #88

He wound up getting married to a pretty, sweet sister as I remember.

So you are saying not much has changed since the sons of god thought the daughters of men were fair?

Those fair daughters of men? Maybe CMW is right, they're all godless. Their only crime being of CBA (Child Bearing Age) ... with every cell of their body crying out for reproduction, and propagating the species.

Is that ungodly?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Any way, the numerous historical accounts documented in newspapers, woodcuts, and other publications prior to the invention of flying machines is, to my mind, very interesting and very puzzling.

"The stratagems of the devil." I think it may be to plant evidence that will foster a belief in man that we are not alone in the universe. We will look back and say that there were all kinds of signs that aliens were interacting with us all along (and probably planted us here in some form). And soon will be the time, before we finally destroy ourselves with whatever, that one will appear to be the savior. The knowledge he endorses and presents will be in opposition to what is in the Old & New Testaments. It will likely appear as a "wonderful" combining of science and the metaphysical. Everything will appear to be answered. His capabilities, wisdom and technology will be off the chart, and will even appear to cheat death.

I'm also sorry to say, but Intelligent design, which makes perfect sense to me, will likely support the Antichrist's claims.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

So you are saying not much has changed since the sons of god thought the daughters of men were fair?

Those fair daughters of men? Maybe CMW is right, they're all godless. Their only crime being of CBA (Child Bearing Age) ... with every cell of their body crying out for reproduction, and propagating the species.

Is that ungodly?

Are you saying all women are "godless"? Yer not saying that are you!? (It's okay, I won't tell your wife - if you are married . . .)

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Are you saying all women are "godless"? Yer not saying that are you!? (It's okay, I won't tell your wife - if you are married . . .)

No, I think that was CountMeWorthy's point. And not married. Been thru several godless women, and one seemingly demonic woman, that I look upon now as a succubus, from meth and opiates.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

"The stratagems of the devil." I think it may be to plant evidence that will foster a belief in man that we are not alone in the universe. We will look back and say that there were all kinds of signs that aliens were interacting with us all along (and probably planted us here in some form). And soon will be the time, before we finally destroy ourselves with whatever, that one will appear to be the savior. The knowledge he endorses and presents will be in opposition to what is in the Old & New Testaments. It will likely appear as a "wonderful" combining of science and the metaphysical. Everything will appear to be answered. His capabilities, wisdom and technology will be off the chart, and will even appear to cheat death.

I'm also sorry to say, but Intelligent design, which makes perfect sense to me, will likely support the Antichrist's claims.

The belief that we are not alone in the universe is Biblical. Repeatedly it talks of angels, fallen angels, demons, and other spirits. There are many accounts of prophets going to heaven or of angels coming to Earth. According to Daniel there are angels put in charge of each country. According to the Lord every believer has angels assigned to them.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The belief that we are not alone in the universe is Biblical. Repeatedly it talks of angels, fallen angels, demons, and other spirits. There are many accounts of prophets going to heaven or of angels coming to Earth. According to Daniel there are angels put in charge of each country. According to the Lord every believer has angels assigned to them.

Amen. I was referring to the meaning when most of the world says, "not alone in the universe." They are not thinking about fallen angels and demons, but benevolent beings in UFOs from some place that's not the Biblical heaven (other galaxies perhaps).

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The belief that we are not alone in the universe is Biblical. Repeatedly it talks of angels, fallen angels, demons, and other spirits. There are many accounts of prophets going to heaven or of angels coming to Earth. According to Daniel there are angels put in charge of each country. According to the Lord every believer has angels assigned to them.

Let me briefly throw out my "extreme" views, which include ZNP's post.

Billions of years ago, God created the heavens and the earth thru His Beloved Son. The universe was filled with planets and suns and galaxies to express God's manifold wisdom and untold creative genius. Probably a large multitude of these heavenly bodies contained life forms of all kinds -- plants, animals, and more. Myriads of angels and other spirits were created to worship God and assist in this universal undertaking. Some or all of these actually may be older than the universe. The administration of this universe was turned over to Lucifer, His topmost archangel. Myriads of angels, some of which were elders, assisted Lucifer to orchestrate and groom a marvelous and expanding universe.

That is, until Lucifer began to consider how wonderful he was. He wanted to be equal with God, and a third of the angels thought so too. They fought God and those who remained loyal to God. The universe as a result became chaotic, a lifeless shell of its former splendor. Destruction and waste characterized the creation of God's former glory. Then only thousands of years ago, God chose planet earth to restore a habitable and temporary home for man, whom He would create in His own image. Though Lucifer and his minions lost the battle and were condemned, they were left alive and at large for God to further use to accomplish His goal.

One day this marginally suitable earth and the entire universe shall be discarded for something new and infinitely better in every way.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Let me briefly throw out my "extreme" views, which include ZNP's post.

Billions of years ago, God created the heavens and the earth thru His Beloved Son. The universe was filled with planets and suns and galaxies to express God's manifold wisdom and untold creative genius. Probably a large multitude of these heavenly bodies contained life forms of all kinds -- plants, animals, and more. Myriads of angels and other spirits were created to worship God and assist in this universal undertaking. Some or all of these actually may be older than the universe. The administration of this universe was turned over to Lucifer, His topmost archangel. Myriads of angels, some of which were elders, assisted Lucifer to orchestrate and groom a marvelous and expanding universe.

That is, until Lucifer began to consider how wonderful he was. He wanted to be equal with God, and a third of the angels thought so too. They fought God and those who remained loyal to God. The universe as a result became chaotic, a lifeless shell of its former splendor. Destruction and waste characterized the creation of God's former glory. Then only thousands of years ago, God chose planet earth to restore a habitable and temporary home for man, whom He would create in His own image. Though Lucifer and his minions lost the battle and were condemned, they were left alive and at large for God to further use to accomplish His goal.

One day this marginally suitable earth and the entire universe shall be discarded for something new and infinitely better in every way.

Everyone loves a good story. And this qualifies as one. Thanks.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

"The stratagems of the devil." I think it may be to plant evidence that will foster a belief in man that we are not alone in the universe. We will look back and say that there were all kinds of signs that aliens were interacting with us all along (and probably planted us here in some form). And soon will be the time, before we finally destroy ourselves with whatever, that one will appear to be the savior. The knowledge he endorses and presents will be in opposition to what is in the Old & New Testaments. It will likely appear as a "wonderful" combining of science and the metaphysical. Everything will appear to be answered. His capabilities, wisdom and technology will be off the chart, and will even appear to cheat death.

I'm also sorry to say, but Intelligent design, which makes perfect sense to me, will likely support the Antichrist's claims.

Are you sure you're not just making up a boogyman? I sill have one under my bed, and in my closet at night, if you need one that bad.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Are you sure you're not just making up a boogyman? I sill have one under my bed, and in my closet at night, if you need one that bad.

Could be. Just trying to connect the dots I see. There are certainly trends with science, and paranormal stuff. I'm a big picture person and love to analyze and put things into context - it's a strength for me. With that said, I recognize that it's a natural strength. These strengths may have been put in me by God as part of my natural make-up, but definitely in the soul (which needs dividing from spirit).

I know people who are are major conspiracy theorists, and they see them everywhere. I read in the Word what the devil is trying to do, and that is truly the mother of all conspiracies! What I know to be true is God's word. My words . . . well they're just my words.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Could be. Just trying to connect the dots I see. There are certainly trends with science, and paranormal stuff. I'm a big picture person and love to analyze and put things into context - it's a strength for me. With that said, I recognize that it's a natural strength. These strengths may have been put in me by God as part of my natural make-up, but definitely in the soul (which needs dividing from spirit).

I know people who are are major conspiracy theorists, and they see them everywhere. I read in the Word what the devil is trying to do, and that is truly the mother of all conspiracies! What I know to be true is God's word. My words . . . well they're just my words.

Good answer StG ... thanks for explaining.

[zeek]

I saw a UFO once in Fort Lauderdale. I was with a group of people who saw it. It was a glowing elipitical shape in the sky. It appeared to be out over the ocean. It moved in an irregular pattern backward and forward unlike a standard aircraft. Then it disappeared in a flash as if it had taken off at such high speed that it couldn't be tracked visually. I have no idea what it was except that it looked like the typical flying saucer cliche. I don't have any theory about aliens whom I am generally skeptical about. I recently heard a far-out story on the radio that the Roswell thing was a hoax perpetrated by the Federal government to create hysteria in the Soviet Union.

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/17/136356...os-or-the-ussr

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Everyone loves a good story. And this qualifies as one. Thanks.

Had I pasted out of some obscure website, you would have loved it.

.

I have to admit that I am a subscriber to Pember's so-called Gap Theory.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Had I pasted out of some obscure website, you would have loved it.

.

I have to admit that I am a subscriber to Pember's so-called Gap Theory.

I said thanks. That means I liked your story. Guess you expected more than that.

But ya done good bro Ohio ....

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

I saw a UFO once in Fort Lauderdale. I was with a group of people who saw it. It was a glowing elipitical shape in the sky. It appeared to be out over the ocean. It moved in an irregular pattern backward and forward unlike a standard aircraft. Then it disappeared in a flash as if it had taken off at such high speed that it couldn't be tracked visually. I have no idea what it was except that it looked like the typical flying saucer cliche. I don't have any theory about aliens whom I am generally skeptical about. I recently heard a far-out story on the radio that the Roswell thing was a hoax perpetrated by the Federal government to create hysteria in the Soviet Union.

http://www.npr.org/2011/05/17/136356...os-or-the-ussr

Zeek, go here to read testimonies from Christians who saw or were involved with UFOs: http://alienresistance.org/ce4testimonies.htm Many testify that after prayer, calling on the Lord or rebuking them, they go away!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Zeek, go here to read testimonies from Christians who saw or were involved with UFOs: http://alienresistance.org/ce4testimonies.htm Many testify that after prayer, calling on the Lord or rebuking them, they go away!

Interesting. I have known mentally ill Christians who were not always credible witnesses though. One young schizophrenic brother whom I knew in the Church in Miami said to me during a lucid moment when I visited him in the hospital after he had slit his own throat, "The mentally ill often come to Christ, because they are the ones who need him the most."

When I was doing crisis intervention in the late 80s a schizophrenia patient described being abducted by aliens from a mental hospital. Those aliens were so clever to abduct the guy from a mental hospital knowing that no one would ever believe his story!

Another patient was a women who alone lived in the Florida Keys. It was easy for the aliens to stuff their alien instruments into the orifices of her body while she was alone down there. The psychiatrists just thought she was psychotic. Those aliens are really smart. They rarely abduct anyone that is believable.

But not everyone I've known who claimed a close encounter with aliens was mentally ill. At a Love Feast one night, former elder of Church in Detroit, Harry Ahlers [anybody remember Harry?] described in graphic detail about a huge flying saucer that had flown over him just above the tree tops when he was working all night as a security guard.

According to my experience, ordinary people who I would have liked to have "go away" did NOT go away when I called on the Lord or rebuked them. Maybe space aliens are more sensitive then humans.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Interesting. I have known mentally ill Christians who were not always credible witnesses though. One young schizophrenic brother whom I knew in the Church in Miami said to me during a lucid moment when I visited him in the hospital after he had slit his own throat, "The mentally ill often come to Christ, because they are the ones who need him the most."

When I was doing crisis intervention in the late 80s a schizophrenia patient described being abducted by aliens from a mental hospital. How clever those aliens were so clever to abduct the guy from a mental hospital knowing that no one would ever believe his story!

Another patient was a women who alone lived in the Florida Keys. It was easy for the aliens to stuff their alien instruments into the orifices of her body while she was alone down there. The psychiatrists just thought she was psychotic. Those aliens are really smart. They rarely abduct anyone that is believable.

Then again, these ones could be easier marks for the enemy, and someone to be more readily tormented. Certain of those testimonies posted on that website (I've heard others), for instance, talk about how they did something to open themselves up - like playing with a Ouija Board, or dark music, etc. After some space of time, but not too long, spirits and/or UFOs would begin appearing.

The enemy may need some sort of opening or permission. You saw a UFO . . . so what was your spiritual state at the time?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Then again, these ones could be easier marks for the enemy, and someone to be more readily tormented. Certain of those testimonies posted on that website (I've heard others), for instance, talk about how they did something to open themselves up - like playing with a Ouija Board, or dark music, etc. After some space of time, but not too long, spirits and/or UFOs would begin appearing.

The enemy may need some sort of opening or permission. You saw a UFO . . . so what was your spiritual state at the time?

I had just smoked pot at the time with the other folks that saw it. We walked outside and one of the guys pointed to it in the sky. You be the judge.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I had just smoked pot at the time with the other folks that saw it. We walked outside and one of the guys pointed to it in the sky. You be the judge.

That's why the space aliens aren't attracted to me. I must change my ways.

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by zeek

I had just smoked pot at the time with the other folks that saw it. We walked outside and one of the guys pointed to it in the sky. You be the judge.

Pot would open the mind to God's enemy...along with many other things!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

I had just smoked pot at the time with the other folks that saw it. We walked outside and one of the guys pointed to it in the sky. You be the judge.

I'm laughing. If you are serious, then you might be one of those believers whose conscience seems fine with doing such things, and I've known a couple like that. Then again, I may be out with brothers who have a beer or a glass of wine . . .

My conscience won't let me smoke pot anymore, as the Lord took the enjoyment of it away from me in an instant. If I smoked it now I might just get paranoid that the aliens (aka demons) were coming for me!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm laughing. If you are serious, then you might be one of those believers whose conscience seems fine with doing such things, and I've known a couple like that. Then again, I may be out with brothers who have a beer or a glass of wine . . .

My conscience won't let me smoke pot anymore, as the Lord took the enjoyment of it away from me in an instant. If I smoked it now I might just get paranoid that the aliens (aka demons) were coming for me!

It was a long time ago before I became a Christian.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by zeek

I had just smoked pot at the time with the other folks that saw it. We walked outside and one of the guys pointed to it in the sky. You be the judge.

Thanks much for the laugh, zeek. What tylenol wasn't doing for my headache, that laugh sure did!

[Where's the 'ole hand-slap-on-the-table laughie-smiley when you need it, anyway!]

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I'm laughing. If you are serious, then you might be one of those believers whose conscience seems fine with doing such things, and I've known a couple like that. Then again, I may be out with brothers who have a beer or a glass of wine . . .

Whenever I think about having a drink, I always remember the time Jesus turned the wine into water...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

But not everyone I've known who claimed a close encounter with aliens was mentally ill. At a Love Feast one night, former elder of Church in Detroit, Harry Ahlers [anybody remember Harry?] described in graphic detail about a huge flying saucer that had flown over him just above the tree tops when he was working all night as a security guard.

According to my experience, ordinary people who I would have liked to have "go away" did NOT go away when I called on the Lord or rebuked them. Maybe space aliens are more sensitive then humans.

I knew a sister who mentioned Harry on several occasions. Anyone remember Carol Schiendehette?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I knew a sister who mentioned Harry on several occasions. Anyone remember Carol Schiendehette?

I do. Whatever happened to Carol?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I do. Whatever happened to Carol?

Carol had juvenile diabetes which took her sight in her 20's. She was in Anaheim, and eventually moved back home in the GLA to be closer to her family. Still, she was a fearless trooper, and little prevented her from getting around.

I remember one time she called a brother to say that she was sitting on the toilet, and heard something splashing in the water. She may have been blind, but she was peaceful in the Lord concerning everything. The brother came over and grabbed that rat around the neck with channel locks.

She eventually married a local brother (an answer to her life-long prayer.) At a young age, the doctors told her she could live to be 50, if she took care of herself. That's what happened. What a joyful sister she was, like a breath of fresh air in the midst of "aliens."

[zeek]

Other than what people claim about demons and alien abductions, is there any evidence for these phenomena?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Carol had juvenile diabetes which took her sight in her 20's. She was in Anaheim, and eventually moved back home in the GLA to be closer to her family. Still, she was a fearless trooper, and little prevented her from getting around.

I remember one time she called a brother to say that she was sitting on the toilet, and heard something splashing in the water. She may have been blind, but she was peaceful in the Lord concerning everything. The brother came over and grabbed that rat around the neck with channel locks.

She eventually married a local brother (an answer to her life-long prayer.) At a young age, the doctors told her she could live to be 50, if she took care of herself. That's what happened. What a joyful sister she was, like a breath of fresh air in the midst of "aliens."

Thanks for the information Ohio. May Carol rest in peace.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Other than what people claim about demons and alien abductions, is there any evidence for these phenomena?

My understanding is that there are secretive government agencies who always clean up the evidence.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

My understanding is that there are secretive government agencies who always clean up the evidence.

Here we go! So the answer is no, there is nothing but anecdotal evidence which is nororiously unreliable.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I do. Whatever happened to Carol?

Was Carol the one that lived with Harry and Jan, that came down with diabetes?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Was Carol the one that lived with Harry and Jan, that came down with diabetes?

Yes she was.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Other than what people claim about demons and alien abductions, is there any evidence for these phenomena?

I truly don't know firsthand about aliens. My dad says he saw a UFO in his teens while down on the farm, and has described the experience many times. It was hovering below him in a valley, with a strange hum to it. It moved strangely, then whisked quickly away.

I had an experience of an unseen force pushing a friend I was standing next to. I had received a miraculous healing and encounter with the Lord a few days before. Interesting quasi-supernatural things were happening around me (which I won't go into here). The force pushed my friend on the shoulder, away from me twice, and almost knocked him off his feet. (I think it happened twice so we would know this wasn't just an accident.) To this day I'm not sure if was an angel, a demon or what.

But it's kind of like trying to prove the existence of God. There are witnesses, but maybe not the scientific kind of "hard" evidence we would like to have.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Other than what people claim about demons and alien abductions, is there any evidence for these phenomena?

Of course. There was a sighting in which three people in a farm saw a craft, one went and got a polaroid and took a photo of a ring left on the ground. The ring glowed. Soil samples were taken by a local police department and had very peculiar traits (the soil had become extremely hydrophobic). The farmers wife touched the glowing soil and had nerve damage in her hand.

There is a case of a flying saucer crashing in west texas and a creature being buried in a cemetery in that town. The craft was buried in a well and then covered up with concrete (this was prior to Roswell around the turn of the century). About 50 years later the land was sold and the new owner drilled a new well for drinking. he came down with an extreme case of rheumatoid arthritis that killed him and which he blamed on drinking the well water.

There is a hunter gather tribe in Africa that believes we were visited by aliens coming from a star in Orion's belt. They have a ceremony that they do every year in celebration and this includes a metal cast of the star system. The problem is that their model is very accurate and could only be constructed with the aid of telescopes invented after the time of Galileo, long after this ceremony and model were first used.

It is also interesting that the Egyptians also believed that aliens came from a star in Orion's belt and the three pyramids are also a model of that system. Also, the Pueblo indians, or some other indian tribe in the SW US believed that aliens came from a star system in Orion's belt.

Ancient artifacts taken from the oldest pyramid in Egypt include a small wooden airplane that was found to be aerodynamically correct (when scaled up and put into a wind tunnel it proved that it was an accurate replica of a glider with the proper angle of attack and good aerodynamic properties).

Ancient artifacts taken from Mayan sites include gold trinkets that look exactly like fighter airplanes. One was scaled up and with no changes at all to the body of the plane (they put an engine inside the fuselage) it flew very well. These gold trinkets do not resemble anything in nature.

There are very many examples of military aircraft being scrambled in pursuit of UFO's these include sightings by pilots, observations on radar, and bizarre and impossible flight characteristics. There is a case of an Iranian jet pursuing to 60,000 feet before losing control, there is a case of Jet fighters during the Falklands war encountering a UFO, there was a case of a nuclear base in Britain that was a US base having a documented encounter with a UFO.

Off the coast of Japan they have discovered a huge stone city (Temple?) that is under the ocean. It is at a level below sea where the last time it was above sea level was more than 20,000 years ago. They found similar structures off the coast of India.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

To this day I'm not sure if was an angel, a demon or what.

Good conclusion. You could have just as easily superimposed whatever you wanted to believe upon that pushy "spirit."

And your friend should have had himself checked out by a doctor. Cuz a medical condition might answer why his shoulder was jerking back. Or he could have been fakin ya ....

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Of course. There was a sighting in which three people in a farm saw a craft, one went and got a polaroid and took a photo of a ring left on the ground. The ring glowed. Soil samples were taken by a local police department and had very peculiar traits (the soil had become extremely hydrophobic). The farmers wife touched the glowing soil and had nerve damage in her hand.

There is a case of a flying saucer crashing in west texas and a creature being buried in a cemetery in that town. The craft was buried in a well and then covered up with concrete (this was prior to Roswell around the turn of the century). About 50 years later the land was sold and the new owner drilled a new well for drinking. he came down with an extreme case of rheumatoid arthritis that killed him and which he blamed on drinking the well water.

There is a hunter gather tribe in Africa that believes we were visited by aliens coming from a star in Orion's belt. They have a ceremony that they do every year in celebration and this includes a metal cast of the star system. The problem is that their model is very accurate and could only be constructed with the aid of telescopes invented after the time of Galileo, long after this ceremony and model were first used.

It is also interesting that the Egyptians also believed that aliens came from a star in Orion's belt and the three pyramids are also a model of that system. Also, the Pueblo indians, or some other indian tribe in the SW US believed that aliens came from a star system in Orion's belt.

Ancient artifacts taken from the oldest pyramid in Egypt include a small wooden airplane that was found to be aerodynamically correct (when scaled up and put into a wind tunnel it proved that it was an accurate replica of a glider with the proper angle of attack and good aerodynamic properties).

Ancient artifacts taken from Mayan sites include gold trinkets that look exactly like fighter airplanes. One was scaled up and with no changes at all to the body of the plane (they put an engine inside the fuselage) it flew very well. These gold trinkets do not resemble anything in nature.

There are very many examples of military aircraft being scrambled in pursuit of UFO's these include sightings by pilots, observations on radar, and bizarre and impossible flight characteristics. There is a case of an Iranian jet pursuing to 60,000 feet before losing control, there is a case of Jet fighters during the Falklands war encountering a UFO, there was a case of a nuclear base in Britain that was a US base having a documented encounter with a UFO.

Off the coast of Japan they have discovered a huge stone city (Temple?) that is under the ocean. It is at a level below sea where the last time it was above sea level was more than 20,000 years ago. They found similar structures off the coast of India.

Well that's all very interesting. Thanks. But you weren't there for any of these listed events. And every picture I've seen of UFOs look corny to me. With all our photographic technology these days, can't we take better pictures? I mean, we're able these days to see galaxies billions of light years away, and we can't take a decent picture of a UFO?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good conclusion. You could have just as easily superimposed whatever you wanted to believe upon that pushy "spirit."

And your friend should have had himself checked out by a doctor. Cuz a medical condition might answer why his shoulder was jerking back. Or he could have been fakin ya ....

Due to the recent strong experience I had, and my fresh relationship with the Lord, I was in a much heightened state of spiritual awareness. I was aware of, to some degree, unseen forces around me. Even the weather was very peculiar that day, with the loudest nearby lightening blasts (three of them) I had ever witnessed. We were standing on a corner getting ready to cross the street. I was to the right of him, and out of the corner of my eye I saw his left should moving violently backwards. The movement was not natural at all and really startled both of us. He exclaimed, "What the!" I responded by just saying "What?" He said, "Something just pushed my shoulder back real hard." Just then it happened again. The movement didn't appear to me to be anything he was doing. It was just as if someone had shoved him on the left shoulder. He stumbled a bit and nearly lost his balance. This freaked both of us out pretty badly, and we quickly got away from that place.

To my knowledge, nothing like this had happened to him before. I spent significant time with him over the course of a couple years, and never saw anything similar. He was not a practical joker type either, and was normally pretty subdued in his character.

Things that are seen were made by that which was unseen, and sometimes the unseen manifests itself more plainly in the seen. I do believe, one day the Lord will reveal to me what all was going on during that time . . .

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well that's all very interesting. Thanks. But you weren't there for any of these listed events. And every picture I've seen of UFOs look corny to me. With all our photographic technology these days, can't we take better pictures? I mean, we're able these days to see galaxies billions of light years away, and we can't take a decent picture of a UFO?

If these things (UFOs) are really spiritual in nature, getting a good photograph might be difficult.

You might want to get that DVD I mentioned before on the crop circles. There are hoazes with these things, but the ones they can't figure out show no signs of mechanical devices being used. And the intracacies of these things is astounding. Not a bad write-up here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_circle

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

If these things (UFOs) are really spiritual in nature, getting a good photograph might be difficult.

The UFOs are flynig contraptions. What, you think spirits have developed technology?

Man's imagination can come up with ridiculous conceptions ... and often does ...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well that's all very interesting. Thanks. But you weren't there for any of these listed events. And every picture I've seen of UFOs look corny to me. With all our photographic technology these days, can't we take better pictures? I mean, we're able these days to see galaxies billions of light years away, and we can't take a decent picture of a UFO?

Which is why I find ancient artifacts, soil samples, Polaroid photos (much less likely that this was doctored, long story, but very unlikely that it was doctored), nerve damage, other illnesses, and underwater monuments more compelling.

I do consider radar corroborated with pilot sightings to be better than merely eyewitness accounts. In think in one case they had radar from 5 different locations corroborate the sighting, so electrical malfunction is a very unlikely explanation.

But all of that aside, the most compelling evidence is a stone structure in Peru, I forgot the name, I could look it up. They have granite stones, weighing in excess of 200 tons, that could not possibly have been cut by hand. They involved very precise cuts, and intricate cuts. what is more, they were transported a great distance up a mountain. The idea that slaves with ropes were pulling these is absurd. These stones today would involve the biggest machines we have to quarry them, cut them, transport them, and put them in place. How primitive indian tribes many thousands of years ago worked with these stones is completely unexplained. The only thing you could possibly argue is that there is a big and significant gap in our record of human history.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

The UFOs are flynig contraptions. What, you think spirits have developed technology?

Man's imagination can come up with ridiculous conceptions ... and often does ...

Do you have proof that they are solid and can be touched? Many things I read question whether they are material (as we know it) or not.

And spirits having technology - do you think the devil doesn't know how to use or make a cell phone (for instance)?

[Sons to Glory!]

My wife just called me on her cell to mine. As we were talking something occurred to me and I said, "You're in Ohio and I'm in Scottsdale." We marveled for a moment that the things we hold in our hands allow us to hear each other clearly from over 2,000 miles away, yet there is nothing visible connecting us. We usually take all this very much for granted, don't we!? But the signal is sent, unseen, through the air.

There are so many things we don't see, yet are so real . . . and we marvel that sometimes evidence of them appears in often unexplained ways.

To me all of these unexplained things add up to evidence that there is much more going on just behind the curtain than we're ever aware of. Pember says that the enemy would just rather we not believe in anything unseen, and that way he has us just fine. If he did things too blatantly, perhaps people would get scared and turn in mass to the living God. But Satan still has an agenda he wants to carry out, so he must subtly prepare us for it. Not too much, all at once - just boil that frog slowly . . .

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I truly don't know firsthand about aliens. My dad says he saw a UFO in his teens while down on the farm, and has described the experience many times. It was hovering below him in a valley, with a strange hum to it. It moved strangely, then whisked quickly away.

I had an experience of an unseen force pushing a friend I was standing next to. I had received a miraculous healing and encounter with the Lord a few days before. Interesting quasi-supernatural things were happening around me (which I won't go into here). The force pushed my friend on the shoulder, away from me twice, and almost knocked him off his feet. (I think it happened twice so we would know this wasn't just an accident.) To this day I'm not sure if was an angel, a demon or what.

But it's kind of like trying to prove the existence of God. There are witnesses, but maybe not the scientific kind of "hard" evidence we would like to have.

Right. Things happen to us that we can't explain sometimes. That doesn't mean it was a demon. It's a big leap from an unseen force to demon.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right. Things happen to us that we can't explain sometimes. That doesn't mean it was a demon. It's a big leap from an unseen force to demon.

I think the principle is you don't disregard your observations. A major mistake in scientific research is to discount or ignore observations that you don't understand.

What I am convinced of is that there is a lot here (by here I mean the archaelogical evidence I have mentioned, and historical accounts, to a lesser extent the eyewitness accounts more recently) that we do not understand.

Until we have understood and explained what we have found it is foolish to rule out any theories. What I also find foolish is the way we dismiss the accounts of ancient people as though they were children. If one civilization has a "myth" that man came from the stars I can understand that allegorically. But if three unrelated civilizations have the "myth" that man came from a particular star in the solar system, and they have models of this star system that could not be done without modern telescopes, even though they did this long before the telescope, then calling this a "myth" is much less credible.

Theories have to explain the observations and not ignore them. It is much easier to disprove a theory than it is to prove one.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Right. Things happen to us that we can't explain sometimes. That doesn't mean it was a demon. It's a big leap from an unseen force to demon.

Yes, regardless of my best conjecture, it was still just an "unseen force." But considering the context of what I experienced during that most phenomenal week of heightened spiritual activity, and according to what I read in the Bible (and therefore believe), it was something from either the enemy's camp, or the Lord's. That would make it probably either an angel (fallen or otherwise) or a demon.

[zeek]

I think the principle is you don't disregard your observations. A major mistake in scientific research is to discount or ignore observations that you don't understand.

Right. But has anyone observed anything with properties that would necessarily add up to a demon? I think a deductive rather than an inductive process leads us to demons. The Bible says there are demons. The Bible is the inerrant word of God. Therefore there are demons. Having accepted the existence of demons whole cloth as it were, the only thing left is to have a corresponding experience. And, since no one knows exactly what an experience would be like, just about anything will do.

What I am convinced of is that there is a lot here (by here I mean the archaelogical evidence I have mentioned, and historical accounts, to a lesser extent the eyewitness accounts more recently) that we do not understand.

I doubt it. There are unexplained phenomena. The fact that you have already accepted the Bible accounts as literally and factually correct sets you up to believe all this other stuff.

Until we have understood and explained what we have found it is foolish to rule out any theories. What I also find foolish is the way we dismiss the accounts of ancient people as though they were children. If one civilization has a "myth" that man came from the stars I can understand that allegorically. But if three unrelated civilizations have the "myth" that man came from a particular star in the solar system, and they have models of this star system that could not be done without modern telescopes, even though they did this long before the telescope, then calling this a "myth" is much less credible.

We are living in a time when more scientific discoveries are being made every day. The first confirmed discovery of an extrasolar planet orbiting an ordinary main-sequence star occurred on 6 October 1995. As of today 677 extrasolar planets have been discovered. Yet people prefer to believe fanciful speculative stuff.

TV and movies and books are filled with supernatural creatures like demons, vampires and aliens. Maybe human beings need this stuff to keep from getting too bored. The supernatural is a very lucrative business.

Theories have to explain the observations and not ignore them. It is much easier to disprove a theory than it is to prove one.

Again, anecdotal evidence is unreliable. People are very suggestible. Why would we have spent years in the Local Church if we weren't gullible? Once burned twice shy, that's my motto. People say all kind of things to sell books. Human beings seem to need something to believe in other than what is plainly true. Shysters understand this fact and prey on susceptible people. As P.T. Barnum said "There's a sucker born every minute."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

I doubt it. There are unexplained phenomena. The fact that you have already accepted the Bible accounts as literally and factually correct sets you up to believe all this other stuff.

Good point. Based upon the strongest experience I have ever had, and the continuing experience of the Anointing within, I believe the Bible is the word of God. Therefore I think it is the best source to explain all things in the universe, both seen and unseen.

I also assume that those on here believe the Bible is the word of God too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Pember says that the enemy would just rather we not believe in anything unseen, and that way he has us just fine..

How could Pember know what the devil does and doesn't do? He just spoke out his backside. Pember was a nutjob.

Truth is it is we that use the idea of the devil to get what we want.

An example is the Europeans claims that the native American Indians were possessed of Satan, as evidenced by them dancing around their campfires.

That gave the Europeans the right to commit genocide against the Indians, so they could take their lands.

The idea of the devil served them well. They then had a right before God to kill the Indians.

Truth is man is more of a devil than the devil is... I fear humans way more than I fear the devil....

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Good point. Based upon the strongest experience I have ever had, and the continuing experience of the Anointing within, I believe the Bible is the word of God. Therefore I think it is the best source to explain all things in the universe, both seen and unseen.

I also assume that those on here believe the Bible is the word of God too.

I don't wish to dissuade you. I had a powerful experience too. The Bible doesn't appear to be a science book to me. So perhaps I tend to look at it somewhat differently than you.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

How could Pember know what the devil does and doesn't do? He just spoke out his backside. Pember was a nutjob.

Truth is it is we that use the idea of the devil to get what we want.

An example is the Europeans claims that the native American Indians were possessed of Satan, as evidenced by them dancing around their campfires.

That gave the Europeans the right to commit genocide against the Indians, so they could take their lands.

The idea of the devil served them well. They then had a right before God to kill the Indians.

Truth is man is more of a devil than the devil is... I fear humans way more than I fear the devil....

Pember says that Plato derived the term demon from the greek adjective “dao” which signifies knowing, intelligent. He takes that to imply that the word points to superior knowledge believed to be possessed by disembodied spirits. He quotes Plato as saying "The deity has no intercourse with man; but all the intercourse and conversation between gods and men is carried on by the mediation of demons." Plato further explains that "the demon is an interpreter and carrier, from men to gods and from gods to men of prayers and sacrifices of the one and of the injunctions and rewards from the other."

Maybe that's what the demon/aliens are doing; that is, traveling to and from heaven on flying saucers with messages.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

How could Pember know what the devil does and doesn't do? He just spoke out his backside. Pember was a nutjob.

Truth is it is we that use the idea of the devil to get what we want.

An example is the Europeans claims that the native American Indians were possessed of Satan, as evidenced by them dancing around their campfires.

That gave the Europeans the right to commit genocide against the Indians, so they could take their lands.

The idea of the devil served them well. They then had a right before God to kill the Indians.

Truth is man is more of a devil than the devil is... I fear humans way more than I fear the devil....

One opinion (regarding Pember); I hold another (but to pursue would proably go down a rabbit hole). Yes, hard to justify what Europeans did to the American Indian. Sad and really deluded if they thought they were doing God's work!

The Bible says the devil exists and shows us his intentions (steal, kill & destroy) - therefore Satan is the ultimate enemy, not man.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But all of that aside, the most compelling evidence is a stone structure in Peru, I forgot the name, I could look it up. They have granite stones, weighing in excess of 200 tons, that could not possibly have been cut by hand. They involved very precise cuts, and intricate cuts. what is more, they were transported a great distance up a mountain. The idea that slaves with ropes were pulling these is absurd. These stones today would involve the biggest machines we have to quarry them, cut them, transport them, and put them in place. How primitive indian tribes many thousands of years ago worked with these stones is completely unexplained. The only thing you could possibly argue is that there is a big and significant gap in our record of human history.

Macho Picchu ?? I mean Machu Picchu

[countmeworthy]

To Awareness and forum friends:

Great Cusco Indian music with Macchu Pichu scenery. Enjoy !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibch2-mGpNk

Carol G

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Macho Picchu ?? I mean Machu Picchu

Did they have steriods back then?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

One opinion (regarding Pember); I hold another (but to pursue would proably go down a rabbit hole).

Yes take Pember with a grain of salt. Cuz if you really get deep into Pember, with all those unseeable spirits and demons, you will likely end up in a mental institution, diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, and in need of medication.

The Bible says the devil exists and shows us his intentions (steal, kill & destroy) - therefore Satan is the ultimate enemy, not man.

So therefore we shouldn't go to war, or incarcerate anyone, cuz it's not their fault. It's the devils fault.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes take Pember with a grain of salt. Cuz if you really get deep into Pember, with all those unseeable spirits and demons, you will likely end up in a mental institution, diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia, and in need of medication.

So therefore we shouldn't go to war, or incarcerate anyone, cuz it's not their fault. It's the devils fault.

Sounds like what my kids like to say (doesn't work, BTW)!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Macho Picchu ?? I mean Machu Picchu

No, I was thinking of PumaPunku in Bolivia, part of the Tiwanaku site.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Sounds like what my kids like to say (doesn't work, BTW)!

These conceptions about the devil is a serious matter. In the C. in Ft. Lauderdale there was a couple that lived in an apartment complex we called Little Zion cuz it was filled with saints.

They had a little boy that was a monster. He filled his dads gas tank with sand and ruined the car. I was concerned for my and others cars so I went over and talked to them about their monster son.

Their contention was that of course their son is a monster, cuz he wasn't regenerated and was controlled by Satan. And they wouldn't discipline their son because they said it wasn't his fault. It was the devils fault. So they were raising their son to be a devil.

So this conception about Satan can be very dangerous and tricky. We tend to create what we believe.

And I've noticed something about devil believing Christians. The ones that are the most concerned and obsessed with the devil act the most devilish. I've seen it over and over again. Want to act like the devil ... become obsessed with the devil.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

And I've noticed something about devil believing Christians. The ones that are the most concerned and obsessed with the devil act the most devilish. I've seen it over and over again. Want to act like the devil ... become obsessed with the devil.

Makes sense - what we focus on most we will see more of (same thing basically as what we eat).

So are you saying we maybe shouldn't discuss this matter any more? I'm fine with that. After all, what more is there to say? It's just a working hypothesis that may or may not have merit.

(Your phrase "devil believing Christians" is curious to me in that it could be taken different ways. Are you saying there isn't a devil, or are you just pointing out ones that focus on him too much, or are you referring to ones that believe what the devil says?)

[awareness]

You got it. It's Christians that fight (or focus) on/with Satan all the time ; that see Satan in everything on a daily basis.

I have a preacher friend who was married to a woman that fought Satan all the time, and saw Him/It everywhere. She would physically attack people cuz she "saw" Satan in them. She attacked his mother while visiting. Thus, she fought the devil, but ended up acting devilish. We become what we fight. If you fight demons you'll have to become one...

[countmeworthy]

I understand what you're saying Awareness. I've been acquainted with one or two people like the ones you describe in my lifetime and they were always W-E-I-R-D ! So I kept as far away from them as I possibly could !

There is a difference between understanding attacks from Satan and blaming everything that goes wrong on Satan.

Stay away from them aliens Harold!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I understand what you're saying Awareness. I've been acquainted with one or two people like the ones you describe in my lifetime and they were always W-E-I-R-D ! So I kept as far away from them as I possibly could !

There is a difference between understanding attacks from Satan and blaming everything that goes wrong on Satan.

Stay away from them aliens Harold!

I don't think you fight demons sis CMW. You know better. You call Jesus in to do the fighting.

And that's way different then jumping your husbands mother and sinking your finger nails into her face, like my preacher friend's wife did.

By the way, to her I was the anti-Christ. Not because she knew anything about me, but that I have been a friend of her husband since Jr. High School. That was enough for her to go into a rant, on the phone, about me being the anti-Christ, and going to hell. Telling me she has power over demons. An example she provided to prove it was, she condemned to hell the pigeons pooping on her awnings, and they left. Believers can get crazy on the Satan/demon thing. Either that or she brought insanity to her beliefs, dragged it in, and syncretized insanty with Jesus, especially concerning demons & the devil.

Truth is God gave us a free will. And that concerns toward God or the Devil. Neither of them can violate our free will. Satan cannot sneak into us without checking with the keeper of the door, which is us. But that applies, I suppose, to those of sound mind. Crazies are another matter, they still remain a wildcard mystery, even to the professional mental health providers.

Yet Christ comes to the crazy ones too. Of course. And we should love them. But only up to a point. When they resort to battery to beat Satan, it's time to tuck them away from society ... and not be married to them.

So my preacher friend couldn't live with her, and did something that went against everything he believed in. He divorced her. He's now a ex-preacher with ambitions to be a preacher again ... not likely ... living with his mother ... for lack of income ....

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't think you fight demons sis CMW. You know better. You call Jesus in to do the fighting.

And that's way different then jumping your husbands mother and sinking your finger nails into her face, like my preacher friend's wife did.

By the way, to her I was the anti-Christ. Not because she knew anything about me, but that I have been a friend of her husband since Jr. High School. That was enough for her to go into a rant, on the phone, about me being the anti-Christ, and going to hell. Telling me she has power over demons. An example she provided to prove it was, she condemned to hell the pigeons pooping on her awnings, and they left. Believers can get crazy on the Satan/demon thing. Either that or she brought insanity to her beliefs, dragged it in, and syncretized insanty with Jesus, especially concerning demons & the devil.

Truth is God gave us a free will. And that concerns toward God or the Devil. Neither of them can violate our free will. Satan cannot sneak into us without checking with the keeper of the door, which is us. But that applies, I suppose, to those of sound mind. Crazies are another matter, they still remain a wildcard mystery, even to the professional mental health providers.

Yet Christ comes to the crazy ones too. Of course. And we should love them. But only up to a point. When they resort to battery to beat Satan, it's time to tuck them away from society ... and not be married to them.

So my preacher friend couldn't live with her, and did something that went against everything he believed in. He divorced her. He's now a ex-preacher with ambitions to be a preacher again ... not likely ... living with his mother ... for lack of income ....

So, from this anecdote we learn that preoccupation with demons can be a symptom of mental illness. I don't mean to imply that any of us is mentally ill, of course.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

I don't think you fight demons sis CMW. You know better. You call Jesus in to do the fighting.

Amen! "Apart from Me you can do nothing." Good conlcusion.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

So, from this anecdote we learn that preoccupation with demons can be a symptom of mental illness. I don't mean to imply that any of us is mentally ill, of course.

Nor should we jump to the conclusion that demons cause mental illness. Back 2000 years ago they made this mistake with epilepsy, thinking it was demon caused. We now know that's not true, that it is a neurological disorder.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Nor should we jump to the conclusion that demons cause mental illness. Back 2000 years ago they made this mistake with epilepsy, thinking it was demon caused. We now know that's not true, that it is a neurological disorder.

When you witness the onset of mental illness, such as a debilitating psychosis, it's sometimes hard not to consider demons. I'm not sure we can say definitively one way or the other in every case.

We can, however, be quite certain to say that when the Lord Jesus cast out demons, that was not just some "neurological disorder."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When you witness the onset of mental illness, such as a debilitating psychosis, it's sometimes hard not to consider demons. I'm not sure we can say definitively one way or the other in every case.

We can, however, be quite certain to say that when the Lord Jesus cast out demons, that was not just some "neurological disorder."

As certain as we can be by second, third, and maybe even tenth hand experience. We weren't there were we? We get only secondhand knowing at best.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When you witness the onset of mental illness, such as a debilitating psychosis, it's sometimes hard not to consider demons. I'm not sure we can say definitively one way or the other in every case.

We can, however, be quite certain to say that when the Lord Jesus cast out demons, that was not just some "neurological disorder."

To me, it isn't necessary to accept the first century understanding of pathological phenomena. What is important is that Jesus as savior has the power to heal. Salvation is related to the word salve or healing ointment. Jesus was famous in the first place for being a healer. All true forms of healing I credit to the Spirit of Christ.

In "The Varieties of Religious Experience" 19th century American philosopher and psychologist William James set out a distinction between “The Religion of Healthy-Mindedness” and “The Sick Soul.” The healthy-minded religious person has a deep sense of “the goodness of life,” and a soul of “sky-blue tint” Healthy-mindedness can be involuntary, just natural to someone, but often comes in more willful forms. Healthy mindedness is exemplified by the turn of Christianity away from a morbid “old hell-fire theology”.

For “The Sick Soul,” in contrast, “radical evil gets its innings”. No matter how secure one may feel, the sick soul finds that “[u]nsuspectedly from the bottom of every fountain of pleasure, as the old poet said, something bitter rises up: a touch of nausea, a falling dead of the delight, a whiff of melancholy….” These states are not simply unpleasant sensations, for they bring “a feeling of coming from a deeper region and often have an appalling convincingness”. Some sick souls never get well, while others recover or even triumph: these are the “twice-born.” James focuses on what he calls “the state of assurance” healthy minded persons achieve. Central to this state is “the loss of all the worry, the sense that all is ultimately well with one, the peace, the harmony, the willingness to be, even though the outer conditions should remain the same”.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

As certain as we can be by second, third, and maybe even tenth hand experience. We weren't there were we? We get only secondhand knowing at best.

To me there is nothing more sure in this universe than the eye witness accounts of our Lord Jesus in the gospels. More certain than tomorrow.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

To me, it isn't necessary to accept the first century understanding of pathological phenomena. What is important is that Jesus as savior has the power to heal. Salvation is related to the word salve or healing ointment. Jesus was famous in the first place for being a healer. All true forms of healing I credit to the Spirit of Christ.

How then do you describe those demon possessed that the Lord Jesus healed who cried out, "what have we to do with You, Son of God?" Mt 8.29

How do you attribute this to mental illness? The Lord never said they were sick and needed healing, rather He transferred the demons to the hogs.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To me there is nothing more sure in this universe than the eye witness accounts of our Lord Jesus in the gospels. More certain than tomorrow.

The gospels don't claim to be eye witness accounts of Jesus's life.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How then do you describe those demon possessed that the Lord Jesus healed who cried out, "what have we to do with You, Son of God?" Mt 8.29

How do you attribute this to mental illness? The Lord never said they were sick and needed healing, rather He transferred the demons to the hogs.

There are numerous possibilities. I don't claim that I KNOW there are no such things as demons. However, I understand there is very little positive evidence for them. Other possibilities include that the writer may have believed that is what happened or the story was created to make a point. The story may have been passed along as oral history for years before it was written. The demoniac may have believed he was demon possessed and consequently spoke out that way..you know, like multiple personality disordered people do in the movies. Perhaps that's the way Jesus, a man of his times, saw the situation.

I would still classify exorcism as a healing. Healers often do even so called faith healers today. Any way the significant take away for me is that Jesus had the compassion and power to heal.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

There are numerous possibilities. I don't claim that I KNOW there are no such things as demons. However, I understand there is very little positive evidence for them. Other possibilities include that the writer may have believed that is what happened or the story was created to make a point. The story may have been passed along as oral history for years before it was written. The demoniac may have believed he was demon possessed and consequently spoke out that way..you know, like multiple personality disordered people do in the movies. Perhaps that's the way Jesus, a man of his times, saw the situation.

Sounds a little like cunningly devised fables . . .

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

There are numerous possibilities. I don't claim that I KNOW there are no such things as demons. However, I understand there is very little positive evidence for them. Other possibilities include that the writer may have believed that is what happened or the story was created to make a point. The story may have been passed along as oral history for years before it was written. The demoniac may have believed he was demon possessed and consequently spoke out that way..you know, like multiple personality disordered people do in the movies. Perhaps that's the way Jesus, a man of his times, saw the situation.

I would still classify exorcism as a healing. Healers often do even so called faith healers today. Any way the significant take away for me is that Jesus had the compassion and power to heal.

Zeek, your post makes numerous gross assumptions ...

• People had no real clue they were possessed by demons
• The man Jesus Himself had no way to know if people were actually possessed by demons
• All sorts of other possibilities exist
• The Bible record is not sufficient proof
• The writers of the Bible were probably mistaken or just fabricated the story for emphasis
• Oral tradition might have embellished the account
• Multiple personalities are only Hollywood movies

This is just too much speculation for me to believe. I think I'll stick to the Bible. As Peter has told us, "we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

[Ohio]

delete this

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

The gospels don't claim to be eye witness accounts of Jesus's life.

Sure they do. Only Luke wrote as a reporter of others' accounts.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure they do. Only Luke wrote as a reporter of others' accounts.

The only pass I could give on this would be the accounting in the gospels of Jesus' life before He went public and Matthew, Mark & John personally knew Him . . .

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The only pass I could give on this would be the accounting in the gospels of Jesus' life before He went public and Matthew, Mark & John personally knew Him . . .

Except all the gospels were written anonymously ... so we really don't know of eyewitness accounts or not. We presume it by faith only ... not by fact, or intellectual certainty.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Zeek, your post makes numerous gross assumptions ...

• People had no real clue they were possessed by demons
• The man Jesus Himself had no way to know if people were actually possessed by demons
• All sorts of other possibilities exist
• The Bible record is not sufficient proof
• The writers of the Bible were probably mistaken or just fabricated the story for emphasis
• Oral tradition might have embellished the account
• Multiple personalities are only Hollywood movies

This is just too much speculation for me to believe. I think I'll stick to the Bible. As Peter has told us, "we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."

They are not assumptions I stated plainly they were possibilities. I was speculating. If you accept that the Bible must be inerrant you are obliged to suppress speculation.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sure they do. Only Luke wrote as a reporter of others' accounts.

How do you know that? I don't see where the other Gospel writers claim to be eye witnesses.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Except all the gospels were written anonymously ... so we really don't know of eyewitness accounts or not. We presume it by faith only ... not by fact, or intellectual certainty.

By faith - good enough for me!

[Sons to Glory!]

Just finished watching a new major motion picture release on DVD called "Thor." In it I was surprised to find the same theme I stated when I started this thread. The protagonist of the movie, Thor, said that where he came from (Asgard), "Science and magic are one."

In the movie, Asgard was inhabited by non-mortals who look after and supervise the universe. They had appeared to man before and saved Earth from malevolent ice creatures. Back then the Nordics worshipped the Asgardians as gods. They movie portrayed the Asgardians as vastly superior, possessing great powers, and wielding this power in a combination of science and supernatural magic.

The movie was about a power struggle and war in Asgard, where Thor was banished to the Earth for a time. He is first seen on Earth by a (appropriately enough) female astrophysicist, who he develops a romantic relationship with.

I do believe this is a demonic theme being presented to us in a variety of ways, in order to soften us to the idea, and cause us to look for someone from beyond the Earth. This being will bring these two areas together (science & magic/paranormal) and will set himself up as mankind's modern savior. We will be powerless to stop this lawless one, and if not for the love and power of Christ . . .

Wow - this is much better and more adventurous than any movie!

So I think something is going on here my friends . . . but, then again, that's just something I think.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Just finished watching a new major motion picture release on DVD called "Thor." In it I was surprised to find the same theme I stated when I started this thread. The protagonist of the movie, Thor, said that where he came from (Asgard), "Science and magic are one."

In the movie, Asgard was inhabited by non-mortals who look after and supervise the universe. They had appeared to man before and saved Earth from malevolent ice creatures. Back then the Nordics worshipped the Asgardians as gods. They movie portrayed the Asgardians as vastly superior, possessing great powers, and wielding this power in a combination of science and supernatural magic.

The movie was about a power struggle and war in Asgard, where Thor was banished to the Earth for a time. He is first seen on Earth by a (appropriately enough) female astrophysicist, who he develops a romantic relationship with.

I do believe this is a demonic theme being presented to us in a variety of ways, in order to soften us to the idea, and cause us to look for someone from beyond the Earth. This being will bring these two areas together (science & magic/paranormal) and will set himself up as mankind's modern savior. We will be powerless to stop this lawless one, and if not for the love and power of Christ . . .

Wow - this is much better and more adventurous than any movie!

So I think something is going on here my friends . . . but, then again, that's just something I think.

Sounds like the typical Greek/Roman pantheon system to me.

And you sound like Justin Martyr to me, a church father of the early 2nd century.

Justin tried to convince the Roman leaders that persecuting Christians was wrong because Christianity wasn't different from Greco-Roman paganism ; that Jesus was born of a virgin, like many of the Greek gods, and Jesus died and resurrected and ascended to heaven, just like the Greco-Roman gods ; that Jesus was half divine and half human, like many of Zeus's children.

He also -- basically claiming clairvoyance into Satan -- said that Satan knew Christianity was coming beforehand, and pre-copied the Christian system in the Greek and Roman mythological systems, in order to mock Christianity, and mislead the faithful. (Like Justin could know what Satan does and does not do.) I guess Satan is a powerful as God, to Justin. He'd have to be to pre-invent mythological systems that were similar to Christian beliefs.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

They are not assumptions I stated plainly they were possibilities. I was speculating. If you accept that the Bible must be inerrant you are obliged to suppress speculation.

This word "inerrant" concerning the Bible should not be taken superstitiously or to unreasonable extremes.

[zeek]

Is the Bible a comic book? Are we living in a comic book world?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

How do you know that? I don't see where the other Gospel writers claim to be eye witnesses.

Were not Peter (gospel of Mark) John and Matthew all disciples with the Lord from the beginning?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Were not Peter (gospel of Mark) John and Matthew all disciples with the Lord from the beginning?

Those names are not in the texts. The texts don't claim to be and are not written from the point of view of eye witnesses. The names were added later based on tradition. Since the accounts are not written from eye witness points of view, even if we accept the names, identifying the authors with the disciples would be nothing more than an assumption. That Peter dictated the Gospel of Mark to Mark is an extra-scriptural tradition.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This word "inerrant" concerning the Bible should not be taken superstitiously or to unreasonable extremes.

Who is doing that? Who decides what is unreasonable? Given the state of knowledge at this point in time, believing in literal demons or alien abductions is unreasonable. Check out "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" by Carl Sagan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Those names are not in the texts. The texts don't claim to be and are not written from the point of view of eye witnesses. The names were added later based on tradition. Since the accounts are not written from eye witness points of view, even if we accept the names, identifying the authors with the disciples would be nothing more than an assumption. That Peter dictated the Gospel of Mark to Mark is an extra-scriptural tradition.

Your opinions don't match the facts of history.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

1) Many view science and technology as being the ultimate savior of mankind. The explosion of technology is astounding. And we are getting into some pretty far out things such as advanced artificial intelligence, biogenics and the manipulation thereof, and even paring the two together.

2) At the same time humans have an extreme fascination with space and the possibility of extra-terrestrials. .. UFOs, alien abduction, crop circles, etc.

I am beginning to have the thought that the way many will be deceived will be a combining of the two above things. It will very hard to resist if someone shows up who can demonstrate an absolute superior mastery of technology (apparently producing life itself?), and appears to come from light years away, who lays claim and responsibility for mankind being here . . .

Thoughts? Has this been discussed before here?

The mainstream church doesn't like to, or want to, or know how to address these questions but there are many, many Christians who are digging deep addressing these topics, me being one of them.

Keep in mind Ephesians 6:12
"Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but
against the principalities (rulers),
against the powers,
against the world forces of this darkness,
against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places"

Satan is the master deceiver. To the world, he will trick them to believe ETs, Aliens, etc (all of which are fallen angels) are sent here to 'save' mankind. Many Christians believe when the dead in Christ rise up and we who are alive are caught up with them in the clouds to meet Jesus in the Air in the twinkling of an eye, Aliens will land on earth in their UFOS deceiving them with signs & wonders.

Isn't it interesting that the famous alleged crash of an alien spacecraft took place at Roswell, NM in 1947, on the heals of Hitler's defeat and Israel once more became a nation in May of 1948? When Israel became a nation again, Satan knew that his time was short and the Lord would be returning soon. Since then Satan has accelerated the pace imo to brainwash and deceive the masses to believe in aliens and UFOs.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Who is doing that? Who decides what is unreasonable? Given the state of knowledge at this point in time, believing in literal demons or alien abductions is unreasonable. Check out "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" by Carl Sagan.

awareness, on numerous occasions, has placed superstitious and unreasonable extremes on the word "inerrant."

We should not link literal demons or alien abductions together. The gospel only address the demons and evil spirits.

I have heard Sagan. He has his numerous and unproven speculations. I really don't have the time or the interest in his writings. But thanks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Isn't it interesting that the famous alleged crash of an alien spacecraft took place at Roswell, NM in 1947, on the heals of Hitler's defeat and Israel once more became a nation in May of 1948? When Israel became a nation again, Satan knew that his time was short and the Lord would be returning soon. Since then Satan has acceslerated the pace imo to brainwash and deceive the masses to believe in aliens and UFOs.

Interesting observation CMW.

You are right about the distractions that Satan uses to deny the existence of God and discredit His word. Another chief distraction is evolution.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This word "inerrant" concerning the Bible should not be taken superstitiously or to unreasonable extremes.

Exquisite point bro Ohio. Thanks for that. I won't forget that one.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Is the Bible a comic book? Are we living in a comic book world?

rotflmao ... but I was only trying to catch that rabbit, when I fell down the hole he went into ....

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Since then Satan has accelerated the pace imo to brainwash and deceive the masses to believe in aliens and UFOs.

Except the UFOers are the fringe of the masses, not the masses.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

awareness, on numerous occasions, has placed superstitious and unreasonable extremes on the word "inerrant."

Who? Me? Not so. I have only observed believers taking the scripture superstitiously ... since diapers. So it is not I, but superstitious believers that do that to scripture. I only report what I see.

So here I am, with a target on my back, so you can shoot the messenger.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Except the UFOers are the fringe of the masses, not the masses.

"I have just learned from the producer that last nights UFO Hunters Area 51 show was the 2nd most watched show on the History Channel so far this year! (Not just the most-watched show of the series but nearly most popular on the whole network.)"

I did a simple google search for the ratings of UFO hunter, a History channel program, and it is clear that the ratings are pretty high. On what basis are you saying that only the fringe of the masses are interested in this? Is that a knock on the History channel?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Who? Me? Not so. I have only observed believers taking the scripture superstitiously ... since diapers. So it is not I, but superstitious believers that do that to scripture. I only report what I see.

So here I am, with a target on my back, so you can shoot the messenger.

You post things to the same extremes as those believers in "diapers."

Is that supposed to be your justification?

You are your own man now. Forget about what the LRC did to you. You even said the other day that we "walk by faith." How about posting from your faith, and not from atheistic skeptics. Peter said, "the proving of our faith is much more precious than gold."

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Except the UFOers are the fringe of the masses, not the masses.

And you know that how ???

[countmeworthy]

Here is an interesting article on "The Upcoming Great Deception" written by a Jewish Christian.

http://www.ufodigest.com/news/1206/deception.html

Carol G

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Your opinions don't match the facts of history.

That is a bald unsupported assertion. I don't think you can back it up with evidence.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

And you know that how ???

Because most people don't believe in UFOs. For example, do you believe in UFOs?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Because most people don't believe in UFOs. For example, do you believe in UFOs?

Depends how you define a UFO. If you accept "Unidentified Flying Object" I think most everyone would believe in those.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Depends how you define a UFO. If you accept "Unidentified Flying Object" I think most everyone would believe in those.

Yeah, I definitely believe there are "Unidentified Flying Objects."

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Except the UFOers are the fringe of the masses, not the masses.

You may be missing the point - it's that much of mankind is looking for the answer in either science or in something/someone outside the Earth. UFOs are just a piece of that. If someone comes that seems to be the embodiment of the answer to both these areas of searching, they will pretty much have a huge built-in following.

[zeek]

A 1996 Gallup poll estimated that 71% of the people in the United States believed that the government was covering up information about UFOs. A 2002 Roper poll conducted for the Sci Fi channel reported that 56% thought UFOs were real craft and 48% that aliens had visited the Earth.

A 2001 Gallup Poll found that the general public embraced the following: 54% of people believed in psychic/spiritual healing, 42% believed in haunted houses, 41% believed in satanic possession.

Source: Wikipedia

That's a lot of fringe, Harold.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

rotflmao ... but I was only trying to catch that rabbit, when I fell down the hole he went into ....

Yes, ultimately this is a rabbit hole, if it distracts us from our first love - Jesus!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Isn't it interesting that the famous alleged crash of an alien spacecraft took place at Roswell, NM in 1947, on the heals of Hitler's defeat and Israel once more became a nation in May of 1948? When Israel became a nation again, Satan knew that his time was short and the Lord would be returning soon. Since then Satan has accelerated the pace imo to brainwash and deceive the masses to believe in aliens and UFOs.

Yes, it does seem the timetable was accelerated with Israel's statehood, and it appears that many paranormal activities increased. (Not sure, but it may be that crop circles may have started escalating soon after that - would be interesting to know . . .)

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, ultimately this is a rabbit hole, if it distracts us from our first love - Jesus!

What is this, a bait and switch tactic? You raised the question. Now you're saying its a distraction. Please explain.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Is the Bible a comic book? Are we living in a comic book world?

God forbid! Far be it from me to project any such notion - let the word of God be true, and the rest a bunch of lies!

But I do believe that the enemy has greatly influenced mythology. The whole Thor/Odin/Asgard thing is a Nordic mythology that has now been modernized by Hollywood (previously by comic books). Hollywood, I conjecture, is largely in the control of the dark one. If I were the enemy I would look to use a media that I could get really slick messages out in mass - Hollywood & TV.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

What is this, a bait and switch tactic? You raised the question. Now you're saying its a distraction. Please explain.

Anything, even "good" teachings can be a distraction from Christ, right?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

A 1996 Gallup poll estimated that 71% of the people in the United States believed that the government was covering up information about UFOs. A 2002 Roper poll conducted for the Sci Fi channel reported that 56% thought UFOs were real craft and 48% that aliens had visited the Earth.

A 2001 Gallup Poll found that the general public embraced the following: 54% of people believed in psychic/spiritual healing, 42% believed in haunted houses, 41% believed in satanic possession.

Source: Wikipedia

That's a lot of fringe, Harold.

I don't know if those statistics are completely true, but anecdotally I hear pretty much the same from people I talk to (not that it's a real common topic . . .).

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Anything, even "good" teachings can be a distraction from Christ, right?

Apparently rational thought can be a distraction from Christ. So should we all go around like a bunch of mindless zombies? No thanks. I already did that for 13 years when I was in the Local Church. It takes courage to think for oneself. But, the alternative sucks. As Phillip K Dick said, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. ...."

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

A 1996 Gallup poll estimated that 71% of the people in the United States believed that the government was covering up information about UFOs. A 2002 Roper poll conducted for the Sci Fi channel reported that 56% thought UFOs were real craft and 48% that aliens had visited the Earth.

A 2001 Gallup Poll found that the general public embraced the following: 54% of people believed in psychic/spiritual healing, 42% believed in haunted houses, 41% believed in satanic possession.

Source: Wikipedia

That's a lot of fringe, Harold.

I stand corrected. There's way more loopy people than I realized. 80% believe in angels ....

The unseen world must be crowded ...

So Mark Twain was right, we could drop walls around the masses, and call it an insane asylum.

Who needs demons when humans are such idiots....that believe in things they've never seen or experienced, willy-nilly.

That's okay bro Zeek, people worshiped Jesus' Holy Foreskin too. Does that make Jesus' foreskin God-skin & holy?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Apparently rational thought can be a distraction from Christ. So should we all go around like a bunch of mindless zombies? No thanks. I already did that for 13 years when I was in the Local Church. It takes courage to think for oneself. But, the alternative sucks. As Phillip K Dick said, "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. ...."

The human pendulum does swing to extremes, does it not? I do know what you are saying regarding the LC practice of narrowly defined thinking! How many times have I heard, "Get out of your mind brother!"? (But then what do we do with Paul's exhortation to "think on these things" - is that not an act of the mind?!)

I certainly have the freedom to bring up the topic in this thread, or anything else, unless the Lord constrains me. But the premise of the statement is still valid, that anything other than Christ can become a big distraction and/or outward form if we let ourselves look away from Him. (i.e., "Apart from Me you can do nothing.")

So we can certainly have this discussion, but let's be sure to keep turning to Jesus to ask what He thinks . . .

Howzat!?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

I stand corrected. There's way more loopy people than I realized. 80% believe in angels ....

The unseen world must be crowded ...

So Mark Twain was right, we could drop walls around the masses, and call it an insane asylum.

Who needs demons when humans are such idiots....that believe in things they've never seen or experienced, willy-nilly.

That's okay bro Zeek, people worshiped Jesus' Holy Foreskin too. Does that make Jesus' foreskin God-skin & holy?

Haven't you seen "The Matrix"? Everyone who is not spiritually enlivened by Christ is just hooked up to the life-sucking machine and completely immersed in the lie. So why would it surprise you that humans believe in anything, seen or unseen? We believe what we've been fed, and praise Him, we got fed some Christ at one point!

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

The human pendulum does swing to extremes, does it not? I do know what you are saying regarding the LC practice of narrowly defined thinking! How many times have I heard, "Get out of your mind brother!"? (But then what do we do with Paul's exhortation to "think on these things" - is that not an act of the mind?!)

I certainly have the freedom to bring up the topic in this thread, or anything else, unless the Lord constrains me. But the premise of the statement is still valid, that anything other than Christ can become a big distraction and/or outward form if we let ourselves look away from Him. (i.e., "Apart from Me you can do nothing.")

So we can certainly have this discussion, but let's be sure to keep turning to Jesus to ask what He thinks . . .

Howzat!?

Sounds like a plan...

[awareness]

Fiery demons fallin from the sky :
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44529188...science-space/

[zeek]

That's okay bro Zeek, people worshiped Jesus' Holy Foreskin too. Does that make Jesus' foreskin God-skin & holy?

Hopefully those people are "the fringe of the masses, not the masses".

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Fiery demons fallin from the sky :
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44529188...science-space/

Killer weed?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Killer weed?

California, whatdaya expect?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I stand corrected. There's way more loopy people than I realized.

What I think is loopy is to look at the stones at Puma Punku, with grooves only a few millimeters in width that are perfectly straight, and the exact same depth for the entire length and to say that this was made with hand tools.

I think it is loopy to think that indians would drag stones weighing in excess of 100 tons up to 4,000 meter height. According to History channel one of the blocks is in excess of 800 tons. It is not possible for people and animals to transport a stone that size.

Now to theorize that there were machines involved in this stonework is, to me, the simplest and most reasonable theory. However, to think the Imara indians which did not have a written language, had huge machines to cut stone, machine stone, transport stone, is to my mind very loopy.

So, I think it is an archaelogical site that demands an explanation because we know looking at this site that there is a story here that we are clueless about.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Because most people don't believe in UFOs. For example, do you believe in UFOs?

Depends on your definition of 'believe'. I know what UFOs are. I believe people have seen flying saucer like objects. I believe people have been abducted by 'greys'. There is a lot of compelling evidence and not one person has been excited and thrilled w/the experience.

Greys/aliens are nothing more than principilaties and powers of the air and spiritual wickedness in high places in other words fallen angels or demons or both. Simple as that. Of the countless of interviews brothers in Christ like LA Marzulli had w/abductees, not one was a true believer/follower of Jesus Christ. One who came close to being abducted applied the Blood of Jesus and the entity released him....but then if you had read my post a while back, you'd know this.

Maybe you did...and simply have a short memory...that happens w/old age...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

I stand corrected. There's way more loopy people than I realized. 80% believe in angels ....

The unseen world must be crowded ...

Who needs demons when humans are such idiots....that believe in things they've never seen or experienced, willy-nilly.

Well...according to the "world" of awareness, count me among the loopy idiots, because I have seen 3 angels in my lifetime. 2 of them when I was in the church in San Diego. I actually saw them...but then being a loopy idiot in your world, no need to tell you what they looked like or what they were doing.

According to your views Daniel must have been a loopy idiot when he saw Michael the Archangel. Mary the mother of Jesus was also among the loopy idiots when she saw Gabriel the Archangel. Yeah...bunch of loopy idiots in the Bible by your standards Harold... and I'm blessed to be counted among those 'loopy idiots' Daniel, Mary and the other Marys who went to Anoint the Body of Jesus only to be told by an Angel, He had risen...

I also recall someone named Thomas did not believe the disciples saw Jesus when they told him He appeared to them... hmmm... I believe he felt like a loopy idiot in front of Jesus and the disciples when Jesus re-appeared to them several days later....

I guess you must see the Bible as filled with lies because many people saw angels and if they saw angels, they had to believe they saw them and if they saw them, they were loopy idiots.....in your loopy idiotic book that is.

I think it is the people who do not believe in angels because they have never seen one..are who are the idiots.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Haven't you seen "The Matrix"? Everyone who is not spiritually enlivened by Christ is just hooked up to the life-sucking machine and completely immersed in the lie. So why would it surprise you that humans believe in anything, seen or unseen? We believe what we've been fed, and praise Him, we got fed some Christ at one point!

HEY ! I'm still eating the Bread of LIFE ! And Drinking from the Fountain that never runs dry !! And I'm not alone in eating and drinking ! I'm in Good Company !!

[zeek]

There is a lot of compelling evidence and not one person has been excited and thrilled w/the experience.

Let's see the compelling evidence.

Of the countless of interviews brothers in Christ like LA Marzulli had w/abductees, not one was a true believer/follower of Jesus Christ. One who came close to being abducted applied the Blood of Jesus and the entity released him....but then if you had read my post a while back, you'd know this.

Alleging that one has been abducted by aliens is not compelling. A close encounter with an alien that leaves no material evidence is like me claiming I have a fire-breathing dragon in my garage. Suppose I seriously make such an assertion to you. Surely you'd want to check it out, see for yourself. There have been innumerable stories of dragons over the centuries, but no real evidence. What an opportunity!

"Show me," you say. I lead you to my garage. You look inside and see a ladder, empty paint cans, an old tricycle--but no dragon.

"Where's the dragon?" you ask.

"Oh, she's right here," I reply, waving vaguely. "I neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon."

You propose spreading flour on the floor of the garage to capture the dragon's footprints.

"Good idea," I say, "but this dragon floats in the air."

Then you'll use an infrared sensor to detect the invisible fire.

"Good idea, but the invisible fire is also heatless."

You'll spray-paint the dragon and make her visible.

"Good idea, but she's an incorporeal dragon and the paint won't stick." And so on. I counter every physical test you propose with a special explanation of why it won't work.

Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true. Claims that cannot be tested, assertions immune to disproof are veridically worthless, whatever value they may have in inspiring us or in exciting our sense of wonder. What I'm asking you to do comes down to believing, in the absence of evidence, on my say-so.

Claims of close encounters with aliens or demons without physical evidence are like my invisible fire-breathing dragon. Possibly pure hokum.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Well...according to the "world" of awareness, count me among the loopy idiots, because I have seen 3 angels in my lifetime. 2 of them when I was in the church in San Diego. I actually saw them...but then being a loopy idiot in your world, no need to tell you what they looked like or what they were doing.

According to your views Daniel must have been a loopy idiot when he saw Michael the Archangel. Mary the mother of Jesus was also among the loopy idiots when she saw Gabriel the Archangel. Yeah...bunch of loopy idiots in the Bible by your standards Harold... and I'm blessed to be counted among those 'loopy idiots' Daniel, Mary and the other Marys who went to Anoint the Body of Jesus only to be told by an Angel, He had risen...

I also recall someone named Thomas did not believe the disciples saw Jesus when they told him He appeared to them... hmmm... I believe he felt like a loopy idiot in front of Jesus and the disciples when Jesus re-appeared to them several days later....

I guess you must see the Bible as filled with lies because many people saw angels and if they saw angels, they had to believe they saw them and if they saw them, they were loopy idiots.....in your loopy idiotic book that is.

I think it is the people who do not believe in angels because they have never seen one..are who are the idiots.

So now the tables are turned because you're telling me that YOU have a fire-breathing dragon in YOUR garage!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Claims of close encounters with aliens or demons without physical evidence are like my invisible fire-breathing dragon. Possibly pure hokum.

Having taught Forensics I agree with you that physical evidence is a much more reliable witness than the eyewitness accounts. I also consider photographic evidence suspect, as well as crop circles.

But, no one can deny that a stone that is 600 tons, polished, machine cut and machine tooled and transported up a mountain to 4,000 meters is physical evidence.

The site of PumaPunku is where an indigenous indian tribe is living snce the time that this site was there. This tribe does not have written language, much less power tools, saws, excavators, tractors, 18 wheelers, etc.

To me, to ascribe the PumaPunku site to the local indigenous indian tribe is as absurd as your dragon in the garage story.

So then, how do you explain this stone, this site, this physical evidence? And this is just the tip of the iceberg, I have alluded to many other examples during this thread, but if you can give a satisfactory explanation for this stone, then I would be happy with that.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Having taught Forensics I agree with you that physical evidence is a much more reliable witness than the eyewitness accounts. I also consider photographic evidence suspect, as well as crop circles.

But, no one can deny that a stone that is 600 tons, polished, machine cut and machine tooled and transported up a mountain to 4,000 meters is physical evidence.

The site of PumaPunku is where an indigenous indian tribe is living snce the time that this site was there. This tribe does not have written language, much less power tools, saws, excavators, tractors, 18 wheelers, etc.

To me, to ascribe the PumaPunku site to the local indigenous indian tribe is as absurd as your dragon in the garage story.

So then, how do you explain this stone, this site, this physical evidence? And this is just the tip of the iceberg, I have alluded to many other examples during this thread, but if you can give a satisfactory explanation for this stone, then I would be happy with that.

Sometimes "I don't know" is the correct answer. It's honest, so it's a great place.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Sometimes "I don't know" is the correct answer. It's honest, so it's a great place.

Fine, but if you don't know it is not reasonable to mock those who are coming up with possible explanations, regardless of how strange they may seem.

100 years ago Wegner proposed a theory that the continents were all moving. This seemed absurd at the time, today it is accepted as a confirmed theory with a very large basis in physical evidence.

2nd, this is not the only site like this. There are sites in many places on Earth that bear a striking similarity. One very reasonable explanation for many of these sites is that they were landing pads. That would explain the large, flat, pavements of very solid or very heavy rock. It would also explain why they are on top of mountains instead of where almost all other human habitations formed which is at the base of mountains where streams and rivers are. Towns formed near farms.

There is other evidence that "landing pads" were needed thousands of years ago. I have already mentioned ancient artifacts from both the Egyptian and Mayan cultures that include scale models of aerodynamically correct flying aircraft. Artifacts that do not resemble anything in nature.

It is in combination with this excellent physical evidence that eyewitness accounts of aerial battles both in ancient India and also in Medieval Europe become much more interesting and believable.

Also, the fact that three separate civilizations without any contact that we know of would all have the same "myth" that people first came from a star in Orion's belt. It is one thing if they all thought man came from the stars, it is very different if they all agree on the actual star that man came from.

To add to this, there is a remarkable artifact from one of these tribes, a model of the star system made of metal. In this model they include a star that cannot be seen without the aid of modern telescopes. Something that this hunter gatherer tribe in Africa does not have.

That model is physical evidence, the pyramids are physical evidence, the artifacts of airplanes are physical evidence, the stones are physical evidence.

Also, please note, the current theory of how the pyramids were built has the Egyptians haulling these stones up a huge ramp, by hand and with ropes, stones weighing several tons each, then moving them to the top of the pyramid, which would become an ever shrinking space considering that you would have hundreds of workers, and placing them into exact position, fitted precisely, all on average of 3 minutes per stone, non stop, for 30 years. Now you tell me who has the fire breathing dragon in their garage?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by zeek

So now the tables are turned because you're telling me that YOU have a fire-breathing dragon in YOUR garage!

Never said that Zeek. Don't act like a loony idiot because I know you aren't one. Or are you ???

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Depends on your definition of 'believe'. I know what UFOs are. I believe people have seen flying saucer like objects. I believe people have been abducted by 'greys'. There is a lot of compelling evidence and not one person has been excited and thrilled w/the experience.

Greys/aliens are nothing more than principilaties and powers of the air and spiritual wickedness in high places in other words fallen angels or demons or both. Simple as that. Of the countless of interviews brothers in Christ like LA Marzulli had w/abductees, not one was a true believer/follower of Jesus Christ. One who came close to being abducted applied the Blood of Jesus and the entity released him....but then if you had read my post a while back, you'd know this.

I saw a web presentation last night (from the Roswell Public Library) where a brother was talking about UFOs, etc. He gave many quotes from the scientific community, which were basically saying there is no evidence these things are physical and from another world. Many said that there was a spiritual, but not material, attribute to them. Even the abductions produce very little physical evidence, other than possibly some bruising and physical marks on the bodies of those "abducted." So it seems that this is being carried out mostly in the spiritual realm through visions, etc., with some physical manifestations. Researchers say "abductees" are not lying in that they really believe they see and feel the things that happened to them.

The spiritual aspect is also evidenced by people who have either seen a UFO or had an abduction experience, reporting a greatly increased level of paranormal things happening to them after the "alien" experience. So we appear to be dealing with malevolent spirits here. We are likely dealing with entities who are able to greatly influence our mind, but some physical manifestations are also not beyond them. Oh, and abductees don't claim these experiences were pleasant, and most are actually quite traumatized by it, with feelings of confusion, fear and darkness.

Current statistics show close to 70% believe in some sort of extraterrestrial life, up from about 10% in 1950 - which is alarming. One in ten say they have seen a UFO. Between 2-3% claim to have had some kind of more personal encounter.

But praise the Lord, these spirits are subject to the power and authority of Jesus Christ. The encounters stop when people call on the Lord for help! (adding evidence to the claim that they are bad spirits and not exterterrestrials)

[zeek]

Fine, but if you don't know it is not reasonable to mock those who are coming up with possible explanations, regardless of how strange they may seem.

I don't accept that I have mocked anyone. If people admit they are merely speculating when that's what they are doing, I have no problem with that. If people claim to know when they don't, then they are deceiving themselves. One is doing service to the truth to point that out . No?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Never said that Zeek. Don't act like a loony idiot because I know you aren't one. Or are you ???

I was speaking metaphorically. What I meant was, your claims to have seen 3 angels are like claiming to have a fire-breathing dragon in your garage to me.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

I don't accept that I have mocked anyone. If people admit they are merely speculating when that's what they are doing, I have no problem with that. If people claim to know when they don't, then they are deceiving themselves. One is doing service to the truth to point that out . No?

Eyewitness account is testifying to the truth, it is not speculating as to cause and effect. it is not positing a theory. However, ridiculing those that do share their experience is not helpful. It explains why people would fear to share their experience.

For example, the founder of Skunk Works, (the research wing of Lockheed Martin that built the most incredible spy planes), had an encounter with a UFO, documented it, and drew diagrams. 25 years later these diagrams seemed quite similar to the planes they designed in Skunk Works. So there are a number of very interesting witnesses and accounts and it is not helpful to discourage them from speaking.

[zeek]

Eyewitness account is testifying to the truth, it is not speculating as to cause and effect.

Who's the eyewitness? You? Or is it heresay? And what did he or she witness? A stone? How do we know how much it weighed? Couldn't the stone have been installed there by a glacier and polished, cut and tooled in the place where it was found? The tribe that is there may be the descendents of a more advanced civilzation like the Incas who had better tools. It's a big leap to space creatures or demons which is not the most parsimonous explanation given the facts. Your speculation about how the stone got there is a hypothesis, not a fact.

Again, I'm not ridiculing anybody. I'm just asking questions. If I had done that before I joined the Local Church I might not have spent 13 years there.

For example, the founder of Skunk Works, (the research wing of Lockheed Martin that built the most incredible spy planes), had an encounter with a UFO, documented it, and drew diagrams. 25 years later these diagrams seemed quite similar to the planes they designed in Skunk Works. So there are a number of very interesting witnesses and accounts and it is not helpful to discourage them from speaking.

Well I saw an UFO too. All that means is that I saw something in the sky and I don't know what it was. It doesn't follow from that that it was an alien or a demon.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

Well I saw an UFO too. All that means is that I saw something in the sky and I don't know what it was. It doesn't follow from that that it was an alien or a demon.

Well, it was probably most likely something . . .

I certainly know where you are coming from. We truly don't know what we don't know. And even when we think we know often times we don't. We're just making campfire conversation here - nothing to get too serious about. Discuss it. Store the information for possible future reference, and go about pursuing Christ.

I will say that after starting this thread I have learned a bunch of things I didn't know about such topics as crop formations, UFOs, the power principalities have (referenced to the Bible), and the whole New Age movement. In fact, it is startling to see that the core goals of the New Age movement very closely align with seeking the the manifestation of Antichrist. Maybe that's because the founders of the New Age movement were getting their insights and writings, so they claim, from spirit entities. See here for a long but interesting slide presentation on the origins, practices and goals of the New Agers: http://conspiracyclothes.com/nowhere...he-antichrist/ And lest you think this is just a fringe group, it is not. It is growing rapidly, but more alarming is how much the quasi-spiritism they practice has infiltrated our modern culture!

BTW: If you happen to speak to someone who go on and on with conspiracies (I know at least a couple), you can tell them that you know of the biggest conspiracy of them all. I told a fellow that recently and he was most curious. I said something to the effect of, "It's that the devil has been able to almost completely hoodwink humans into believing he doesn't exist." I went on to tell him the Jesus came to undo the works of the devil, resurrected, and the greatest fact is He can be received as a free gift by any that call on Him. This stopped the fellow pretty much in his tracks, and he said he would consider it. Maybe at some point he will call on Jesus, and/or pray with me . . .

[OBW]

Someone's drinking the kool aide.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

Someone's drinking the kool aide.

Meaning what?

[countmeworthy]

OBW wrote:
Someone's drinking the kool aide.

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Meaning what?

Probably that he's been drinking the kool aide and that's why he hasn't been around much lately..

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Who's the eyewitness? You? Or is it heresay? And what did he or she witness? A stone? How do we know how much it weighed? Couldn't the stone have been installed there by a glacier and polished, cut and tooled in the place where it was found? The tribe that is there may be the descendents of a more advanced civilzation like the Incas who had better tools. It's a big leap to space creatures or demons which is not the most parsimonous explanation given the facts. Your speculation about how the stone got there is a hypothesis, not a fact.

Again, I'm not ridiculing anybody. I'm just asking questions. If I had done that before I joined the Local Church I might not have spent 13 years there.



Well I saw an UFO too. All that means is that I saw something in the sky and I don't know what it was. It doesn't follow from that that it was an alien or a demon.

Here is a reference to wikipedia concerning Puma Punku, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku, no the blocks were not glacial erratics. Archaelogists believe they were quarried 10 km away and then transported from the quarry up a steep incline to the site. We are not talking about 1 stone, we are talking about a temple site that, according to Wikipedia:

"At its peak, Pumapunku is thought to have been “unimaginably wondrous,”[2] adorned with polished metal plaques, brightly colored ceramic and fabric ornamentation, trafficked by costumed citizens, elaborately dressed priests and elites decked in exotic jewelry. Our understanding of this complex is limited due to its age, the lack of a written record, the current deteriorated state of the structures due to treasure hunting, looting, stone mining for building stone and railroad ballast, and natural weathering."

I do not understand your question about "who is the eyewitness".

I think it is undeniable that whoever quarried, cut, polished, tooled, and transported these stones had far better tools than the indians living there today, the question is, why do we have not archaelogical evidence of them? Where did these tools go?

By way of comparison, there is an obelisk in Rome that came from ancient Egypt. It weighs 230 tons. It was erected in the 1500s. It was shipped by boat, and erected using cranes. It was a very big undertaking at the time. Puma Punku preceded this by at least 2,000 years, and whereas the stone in Rome is near sea level, these stones in Puma Punku had to be taken up a steep slope, 10km. There were no ships to transport them. No doubt, putting them in place would require cranes, but how did they transport the stones?

As for cutting, polishing and tooling in place. If we were to do this today we would need huge machines. I have a diamond tipped wet saw for cutting tile, that could not have made these marks, you would need a much bigger machine. We would probably need robots. The stones were designed to be interlocking like legos.

The stones are made of granite and diorite, which are very hard stones and would require a diamond tipped saw to cut.

So somehow, to explain this site you have to explain how a civilization in the Andes at least 2500 years ago had the ability to build this site.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Here is a reference to wikipedia concerning Puma Punku, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku, no the blocks were not glacial erratics. Archaelogists believe they were quarried 10 km away and then transported from the quarry up a steep incline to the site. We are not talking about 1 stone, we are talking about a temple site that, according to Wikipedia:

"At its peak, Pumapunku is thought to have been “unimaginably wondrous,”[2] adorned with polished metal plaques, brightly colored ceramic and fabric ornamentation, trafficked by costumed citizens, elaborately dressed priests and elites decked in exotic jewelry. Our understanding of this complex is limited due to its age, the lack of a written record, the current deteriorated state of the structures due to treasure hunting, looting, stone mining for building stone and railroad ballast, and natural weathering."

I do not understand your question about "who is the eyewitness".

I think it is undeniable that whoever quarried, cut, polished, tooled, and transported these stones had far better tools than the indians living there today, the question is, why do we have not archaelogical evidence of them? Where did these tools go?

By way of comparison, there is an obelisk in Rome that came from ancient Egypt. It weighs 230 tons. It was erected in the 1500s. It was shipped by boat, and erected using cranes. It was a very big undertaking at the time. Puma Punku preceded this by at least 2,000 years, and whereas the stone in Rome is near sea level, these stones in Puma Punku had to be taken up a steep slope, 10km. There were no ships to transport them. No doubt, putting them in place would require cranes, but how did they transport the stones?

As for cutting, polishing and tooling in place. If we were to do this today we would need huge machines. I have a diamond tipped wet saw for cutting tile, that could not have made these marks, you would need a much bigger machine. We would probably need robots. The stones were designed to be interlocking like legos.

The stones are made of granite and diorite, which are very hard stones and would require a diamond tipped saw to cut.

So somehow, to explain this site you have to explain how a civilization in the Andes at least 2500 years ago had the ability to build this site.

The gives the following hypothetical explanations:

"Archaeologists argue that the transport of these stones was accomplished by the large labor force of ancient Tiwanaku. Several theories have been proposed as to how this labor force transported the stones although these theories remain speculative. Two of the more common proposals involve the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes."

Since those explanations don't rely on supernatural or unknown alien beings, everything else being equal, they appear more plausible.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by zeek

, I'm not ridiculing anybody.

Really? You sure fooled me !

I'm just asking questions.

Do you always ask questions with a sarcastic tone ?

If I had done that before I joined the Local Church I might not have spent 13 years there.

And how much of those 13 years did YOU spend time getting to know the Word of God for yourself ? Did GOD ever speak to you ? And please don't give me some metaphorical answer. It's a simple yes or no. Also..I don't need an answer. It's a question you ought to ask yourself.

What I find so peculiar about the LC is it was the one place we were supposed to be filled w/the Life Giving Spirit..so much 'life'... But I'm finding the longer people stayed in that organization, the further away they got from God.

To me, The Word of God is amazingly Living and Powerful and RICH...Full of Wisdom and Insight. He controls the course of world events; He removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives Wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars.
He reveals deep and mysterious things and knows what lies hidden in darkness,
though He is surrounded by Light.

It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter that is It is God’s privilege to conceal things and the king’s privilege to discover them.

I pray it would be to you as well.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by zeek

The gives the following hypothetical explanations:

"Archaeologists argue that the transport of these stones was accomplished by the large labor force of ancient Tiwanaku. Several theories have been proposed as to how this labor force transported the stones although these theories remain speculative. Two of the more common proposals involve the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes."

Since those explanations don't rely on supernatural or unknown alien beings, everything else being equal, they appear more plausible.

I know I'm probably going to regret throwing my 2 cents in here on this sidebar, but . . . Since we know from the Bible that there is an enemy who is in opposition to the One True God, and these ancient civilizations worshipped other gods in ways that often included human sacrifice, does it stand to reason that these entities may have manifested themselves in some way to these civilizations? And, if so, does it stand to reason that they provided these civilizations with knowledge that surpassed their current understanding? And might then these god entities have put on physical displays that would astound the humans and would encourage further adulation from them?

We know from the Bible that the wicked rulers of the air domain did interact with humans and went too far, prompting God to call a halt to certain interactions. The Bible, however, probably does not record all the details of all these various interactions.

Fast forward to modern day, did these ancient enemies of God (and mankind) just take a break and decide not to interact with mankind any more on a physical/seen level? Do they not still have a nefarious agenda to fulfill? Would they not seek everything at their disposal to further this agenda (but not do it so outwardly or fast as to scare modern man)?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The gives the following hypothetical explanations:

"Archaeologists argue that the transport of these stones was accomplished by the large labor force of ancient Tiwanaku. Several theories have been proposed as to how this labor force transported the stones although these theories remain speculative. Two of the more common proposals involve the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes."

Since those explanations don't rely on supernatural or unknown alien beings, everything else being equal, they appear more plausible.

Oh yes, very plausible. Just so everyone is clear, 4,000 meters is similar in height to the highest peaks in Switzerland. You take the idea of "Sherpa" to an entirely new level. But just so I am clear, the theory is that an ancient civilization built a ramp 10 km long to help drag blocks of stone weighing in excess of 100 tons, up to a height above 4,000 meters with the use of Llamas and slaves? And the ropes are made of llama skins because we forgot to mention, nothing else is growing at that height that you could use. If those proposing this theory could move just one stone that distance in the manner they propose I would applaud them

This is no more a theory than the magic bullet theory on how Kennedy was killed.

And why would an ancient civilization do such an absurd thing?

[zeek]

Do you always ask questions with a sarcastic tone ?

I did not intend sarcasm.

And how much of those 13 years did YOU spend time getting to know the Word of God for yourself ? Did GOD ever speak to you ? And please don't give me some metaphorical answer. It's a simple yes or no. Also..I don't need an answer. It's a question you ought to ask yourself.

I believe God did, but i don't know. No one does. God is not a matter of knowledge but of faith.

What I find so peculiar about the LC is it was the one place we were supposed to be filled w/the Life Giving Spirit..so much 'life'... But I'm finding the longer people stayed in that organization, the further away they got from God.

I can't confirm that. People joined for different reasons and had different experiences. Without more data our generalizations are no more than guesses.

To me, The Word of God is amazingly Living and Powerful and RICH...Full of Wisdom and Insight. He controls the course of world events; He removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives Wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars.
He reveals deep and mysterious things and knows what lies hidden in darkness,
though He is surrounded by Light.

It is the Glory of God to conceal a matter that is It is God’s privilege to conceal things and the king’s privilege to discover them.

I pray it would be to you as well.

Since you included that little clause "to me" I can't argue with that. Indeed Isaiah 45:15 says "Truly you are a
God who hides Himself...." Thank you for your prayer.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The gives the following hypothetical explanations:

"Archaeologists argue that the transport of these stones was accomplished by the large labor force of ancient Tiwanaku. Several theories have been proposed as to how this labor force transported the stones although these theories remain speculative. Two of the more common proposals involve the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes."

Since those explanations don't rely on supernatural or unknown alien beings, everything else being equal, they appear more plausible.

Another question I would have about this theory is this. If we were going to cut these stones today we would program a high tech router with a diamond tip and a wet saw to cut this stone. The reason is that these are designed to be interlocking and the precision would have to be amazing. Human error would ruin many stones and you wouldn't know it until after transporting them up to the site. Seems like a very expensive error. So we have diamond wet saws, diamond tip routers, we can polish these stones to a tolerance measured in millimeters, so an amazing planer, but then we transport them with ropes made of llama skins? Pulled by South American Sherpas?

The advantage of the interlocking stones is that you don't use mortar. Since the area is tectonically active, it would be advantageous to not use mortar. This would allow for a stronger structure that had some give in it.

[zeek]

Vampire, demon possessed, or just plain nuts? You be the judge:

http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pu...an_hooters.php

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

The gives the following hypothetical explanations:

"Archaeologists argue that the transport of these stones was accomplished by the large labor force of ancient Tiwanaku. Several theories have been proposed as to how this labor force transported the stones although these theories remain speculative. Two of the more common proposals involve the use of llama skin ropes and the use of ramps and inclined planes."

Since those explanations don't rely on supernatural or unknown alien beings, everything else being equal, they appear more plausible.

One other issue, a diamond tip wet saw is the only way we could cut granite and diorite today. Diamonds were a very rare commodity 2500 years ago. I am not aware of any Diamond mines in Bolivia at that time. But even if they did have them. It seems amazing that they could have such an exotic cutting tool and yet be forced to use "llama skin ropes".

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Another question I would have about this theory is this. If we were going to cut these stones today we would program a high tech router with a diamond tip and a wet saw to cut this stone. The reason is that these are designed to be interlocking and the precision would have to be amazing. Human error would ruin many stones and you wouldn't know it until after transporting them up to the site. Seems like a very expensive error. So we have diamond wet saws, diamond tip routers, we can polish these stones to a tolerance measured in millimeters, so an amazing planer, but then we transport them with ropes made of llama skins? Pulled by South American Sherpas?

The advantage of the interlocking stones is that you don't use mortar. Since the area is tectonically active, it would be advantageous to not use mortar. This would allow for a stronger structure that had some give in it.

Right. Well, like I said before I don't know. It's a mystery to me. The stones look like giant legos. The alien civilization theory raises more questions than it answers though.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

One other issue, a diamond tip wet saw is the only way we could cut granite and diorite today. Diamonds were a very rare commodity 2500 years ago. I am not aware of any Diamond mines in Bolivia at that time. But even if they did have them. It seems amazing that they could have such an exotic cutting tool and yet be forced to use "llama skin ropes".

ZNP, many of your observations are quite compelling, and fascinating. Prior to this thread, I was not aware of those precision stone structures in the Andes. I was aware that modern engineers still don't know how the archeological wonders in Egypt were built. I had attributed their construction to the Israelite slaves and some notion that the ancients were not as stupid as we have been told.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, many of your observations are quite compelling, and fascinating. Prior to this thread, I was not aware of those precision stone structures in the Andes. I was aware that modern engineers still don't know how the archeological wonders in Egypt were built. I had attributed their construction to the Israelite slaves and some notion that the ancients were not as stupid as we have been told.

The amazing thing about this site, if it was built yesterday I would know exactly how it was built, they used a very high tech lathe and router and planer, about the size of an aircraft hangar to cut, polish, and tool these stones. And, I could tell you why. Clearly, the tool marks allow you to rig up a crane to pick up the stone and manipulate it in air so that you can interlock the stones like legos. It would make sense that they were doing this in a tectonically active region.

The problem is that these stones were made at least 2500 years ago in South America, in an area with virtually no written record of a civilization. Did they have steel and iron back then? Did they have electricity?

I was looking at an account of how the Romans moved an obelisk which is of similar weight to the largest stones in Puma Punku. They used 700 men and, using winches, they were able to move the stone 30 meters per day. At that rate, you could move one stone 10km in about 1 year. Of course if you had 300 of these winch setups and 210,000 men you could have a whole train of these stones moving at the same time. So who knows, maybe in 10 years you could move enough stones to build a temple complex. Of course, the romans were working at sea level and these guys would be at 4,000 meters and they were moving these stones up hill.

How can a primitive culture afford to spend this much labor on something like this? How do you feed, clothe, and house an army of 210,000 just to move your big stones? Why build this temple complex so high up?

Why is it that no other civilization uses 100 ton interlocking stones? It is because the stones are too big and difficult to maneuver, and the cutting of the stone is too precise, complicated and difficult to do.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Of course, the romans were working at sea level and these guys would be at 4,000 meters and they were moving these stones up hill.

How certain are geologists that these monoliths were elevated 4,000 meters? Looking at the topography, it seems to be a relatively level plain down to that huge lake Titicaca. A quarry site any where near that lake would surely ease the major problem of transportation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How certain are geologists that these monoliths were elevated 4,000 meters? Looking at the topography, it seems to be a relatively level plain down to that huge lake Titicaca. A quarry site any where near that lake would surely ease the major problem of transportation.

Don't know, I heard they think the lake is artificially made and they see a lot of strange lights in and around the lake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Don't know, I heard they think the lake is artificially made and they see a lot of strange lights in and around the lake

How does one "artificially" make a lake without a dam or an asteroid?

The strange lights add to the mystique?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How does one "artificially" make a lake without a dam or an asteroid?

The strange lights add to the mystique?

Well the legend is that Star people came down to the lake and started the Inca nation. The people that live around the lake are convinced that there are strange creatures living in the lake. Archaelogists have found an underwater temple by following a road that leads under water to the temple. So, you could argue that the lake was always here, only lower, but that in recent history something happened to make the lake deeper and submerge the temple. Some feel that the lake was made deeper artificially.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Well the legend is that Star people came down to the lake and started the Inca nation. The people that live around the lake are convinced that there are strange creatures living in the lake. Archaelogists have found an underwater temple by following a road that leads under water to the temple. So, you could argue that the lake was always here, only lower, but that in recent history something happened to make the lake deeper and submerge the temple. Some feel that the lake was made deeper artificially.

Perhaps similar to the Dead Sea, because Lake Titicaca is a closed lake, the water level has had dramatic fluctuations over the centuries.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps similar to the Dead Sea, because Lake Titicaca is a closed lake, the water level has had dramatic fluctuations over the centuries.

The dead sea is below sea level, this lake is close to 4,000 meters in elevation, one of the highest, deepest lakes on earth. The height of the water is based on a balance between the water flowing in and the water flowing out. We are well aware of the climate in the last 4,000 years, so if this temple is from a period thousands of years before that, then that would be very revolutionary. On the other hand, if the water level was raised in the last 3,000 years then that would almost certainly be the result of rivers flowing out of the lake being damned up.

[zeek]

One of the most successful and influential of all Bad Archaeologists is the Swiss former hotelier, Erich von Däniken (born 1935). He caused controversy in the late 1960s with his popularisation of what has become known as the ‘ancient astronaut hypothesis’, although he was by no means the first to propose it. His first book, Chariots of the Gods?, published in 1967 after no fewer than twenty-two rejections, became a worldwide bestseller, thanks in no small part to its tone: a strident attack on hide-bound academia by one who dared to speak his mind. He was not the first fringe writer to adopt this stance and he has not been the last: expert bashing has become an important cultural cliché over the past half century or so. The ups and downs of his career have seen him arrested for fraud, become a global media personality and, ultimately, made him wealthy through the sale of over sixty million copies of his books. He has consistently claimed that the remains of ancient cultures can only be explained by extraterrestrial interventions in human history.



During an early career as a waiter, he was able to save for extensive travels in which he hoped to find evidence for an idea he had developed through reading the Bible (and, although he does not admit as much, it is clear from the outset that he got many of his ideas from his reading of the works of speculative writes such as Louis Pauwels and Jacques Bergier, Robert Charroux and Peter Kolosimo): that extraterrestrials had meddled in human history. The piece of evidence he considers the most convincing that he has ever produced is the cover slab of the tomb of the Lord Pacal in the Pyramid of the Inscriptions at Palenque, weak stuff though it is. Moreover, his description and interpretation are not original: they derive from an article by Guy Tarade and A Millou in an Italian magazine Clypeus, published in October 1966. He saw it as a representation of a humanoid being in a space capsule and it became the cover image for the hardback publication of the English edition of Chariots of the Gods?. Subsequent books took his search for evidence farther afield and he even dabbled in analyses of religious visions (Miracles of the Gods) and Greek mythology.

The spacemen gods

Like so many fringe writers, von Däniken cannot accept that ancient peoples had spiritual experiences or imaginations. Whenever people in the past wrote about ‘gods’ and ‘heaven’ they were thinking about how to express their incomprehension of vastly superior technology.

Because the gods of so many ancient cultures are associated with the sky or with objects in the sky, such as the sun and moon, von Däniken believes that there must be a literal connection. In a late twentieth-century context, they can be identified with the beings that were being recorded from the early 1950s onwards as pilots of Unidentified Flying Objects, who claimed to those with whom they made contact that they had come from other planets. Although von Däniken remains surprisingly agnostic about UFOs, the connection is clear: the gods of ancient myth were space travellers whose craft are identical with those phenomena that UFO enthusiasts regard as historical records of ‘flying saucers’.

Alien artefacts?


Von Däniken uses an assortment of out-of-place artefacts and spectacular monuments to provide evidence for his thesis. He seems to regard all of them as human creations, albeit aided or inspired by space travellers (unlike Alan Alford, who claimed that the Great Pyramid had been built by the Anunnaki as an apparatus for splitting water molecules to provide hydrogen fuel for spacecraft…). Nevertheless, he believes that the artefacts he uses to suggest alien contact could not have been developed the peoples using them: the ‘Batteries of Babylon’, for instance, cannot be an invention of the Persians of the first millennium BCE, but must be a degenerate version of something originally more sophisticated of extraterrestrial origin. Most of these pieces of evidence involve the same argument: these creations are too complex to be the unaided products of ancient humans because those humans lacked the technical expertise to create them.

Much of the argument is almost racist: the people of distant times lack the mental capacities of the alien ‘gods’ – just as the people of distant places in more recent centuries were claimed to lack the mental capacities of the ‘superior’ Europeans who ruled them.

Among the artefacts, though, are pieces unknown to conventional archaeology, such as the gold objects allegedly found in cave systems in Ecuador. In addition, for the most part, he provides no references to where the material has been published or where it can be viewed. This poses problems for the serious researcher who may wish to follow up claims about specific pieces of evidence. Parts of Chariots of the Gods?, for example, consist of lists of artefacts that are effectively meaningless as they lack any contextual information or detail.

The gods themselves left nothing behind

Whilst some sceptics might consider it necessary to identify the products of the aliens themselves, this does not appear to be a problem for von Däniken. He seems to believe that, unlike humans, the space travellers were able to do all sorts of things while on earth that have left no trace in the archaeological record. [invisible dragons in garages] The only evidence is evidence by proxy: the anthropogenic material he identifies as inspired by the aliens.

Genetically modified humans?

Like a number of fringe writers, von Däniken has immense difficulties with the origins of the human species, as well as of human civilisation. He finds the transition from archaic to modern forms to be too rapid to be accounted for by evolution and is evidently troubled by the common assertion of religions that humans have been created in a god’s image. To him, this is evidence for the special creation of humanity. Where he differs from the creationists, though, is in his insistence that when ancient texts speak of ‘gods’, they actually mean ‘astronauts’ (hence the subtitle of the English translation of Chariots of the Gods?: Was God an Astronaut?). Humans were created in the (relatively) recent past by the selective interbreeding of spacemen with proto-human females.

SOURCE:
http://www.badarchaeology.com/?page_id=573

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

SOURCE:
http://www.badarchaeology.com/?page_id=573

To me, the theory that you can explain much of the issues with ancient archaeology with an "ancient astronaut" theory does not actually answer any questions. Because you are solving questions about how these ancient people did things that we can do today, but only with modern technology by saying ancient astronauts did it, and in so doing you bring in technology that we don't have -- interstellar space travel.

That said, I don't think that positing a wild theory like that is any more bad archaelogy than someone who says the Egyptians could have cut, transported and set stone blocks weighing several tons apiece to as much as 60 tons at a rate of one stone every three minutes for 30 years non stop by using slaves, ropes, and extremely rudimentary cutting tools. Although you might be able to demonstrate any individual step in this process, no one has even come close to demonstrating that this theory was feasible.

After all, how do you feed, clothe and house your army of slaves to do this? No doubt you would need an equally formidable army of guards. And of course you would need another army going out, fighting wars, and bringing back a steady stream of slaves. Surely they didn't have a tax base of hundreds of millions like the US, and we get complain after 5 or 6 years of wartime debt. Historians estimate they had a population around 2 million, that is less than 1% of US population. Also, they didn't have modern agriculture, so the productivity of their farms was probably a fraction of what we get today.

So I feel there are many, many unanswered questions that "bad archaelogists" ignore, avoid, or just plain close their eyes to. Also, as wild a theory as astronauts might seem, this theory is based on ancient texts. Previously the accepted interpretation was that the people were speaking mythology, or dreams, or visions, or speaking of Gods. But no one can deny the actual Hindu texts are describing an aerial battle. I dislike someone saying that these theories are "bad archaeology" when they have no plausible theory to replace it with.

[Sons to Glory!]

Here are some interesting excepts from the website I've posted earlier. Please note the last paragraph in connection with the current twist on this discussion.

In a video debunking New Age occultism, evangelist Chris White offers:

"... Let me suggest a possible x factor... That is an extra terrestrial presence being discovered. I realize that there are many documents that reveal a plan of the new world order to use an alien threat to cause the patriotism needed for a world government. After all people would no longer view themselves and separate countries but instead a world family, this would also create the need for a world bureaucracy to deal with the threat. But I think that based on the propaganda of Hollywood and the occult writings that this might not be presented as a threat at all, but rather as them posing as a savior to a world that will be war torn, They will claim to be saving us from ourselves, they will claim to have genetically created mankind, and they would claim that they used to be like us and that we are on the verge of an evolution...

"...All over the world religions would be in turmoil, here are these aliens and they are claiming to have created us, that means they are claiming to be our God in a sense... All the religions would be forced to reconsider their ideas.

Secondly, it would finally get the idea of a possible evolution to the entire world, everyone across the world, from the smallest village to the largest city would have a really good reason to believe that they too could be evolved, they could become like the aliens, they could become actual gods...

Many people already have gotten the idea into their heads that the Earth may have been visited by aliens in the past, or that aliens might have built the pyramids, etc., have been visiting us for a long time, or even that aliens seeded life here on earth. This theory is known as "panspermia" or "exogenesis". And some abductees already believe that humanity was genetically engineered by aliens that were here in Earth's past. The foundation of these ideas is the Theory of Evolution. If people are deceived into thinking Abaddon is an "alien", who was here in the past, this may be the grand finale of the Theory of Evolution, which has grown beyond a science theory, to be a faith-based religious system. In fact, it seems to be the best candidate out there for the “Strong Delusion” spoken of in 2 Thessalonians.

Found here: http://alienresistance.org/arstrongdelusion.htm

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Many people already have gotten the idea into their heads that the Earth may have been visited by aliens in the past, or that aliens might have built the pyramids, etc., have been visiting us for a long time, or even that aliens seeded life here on earth. This theory is known as "panspermia" or "exogenesis". And some abductees already believe that humanity was genetically engineered by aliens that were here in Earth's past. The foundation of these ideas is the Theory of Evolution. If people are deceived into thinking Abaddon is an "alien", who was here in the past, this may be the grand finale of the Theory of Evolution, which has grown beyond a science theory, to be a faith-based religious system. In fact, it seems to be the best candidate out there for the “Strong Delusion” spoken of in 2 Thessalonians.

Found here: http://alienresistance.org/arstrongdelusion.htm

The theory of evolution is well supported without any reference to aliens. As I understand it, the Sumerian texts describe bioengineering a race of humans to work as slaves. Egyptian hyrogliphs seem to suggest the idea of bioengineering. And the fossil record does show a remarkably quick growth of the human cranium that seems very rapid by evolutionary standards.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The theory of evolution is well supported without any reference to aliens. As I understand it, the Sumerian texts describe bioengineering a race of humans to work as slaves. Egyptian hyrogliphs seem to suggest the idea of bioengineering. And the fossil record does show a remarkably quick growth of the human cranium that seems very rapid by evolutionary standards.

I don't believe the theory of evolution is "well supported."

I say phooey to "evolutionary science" and the development of "Cro-Magnon craniums."

One of my roommates in college was a precious african-american brother from the Cleveland ghetto. His profile looked just like Neanderthal man. Imagine one day they excavate his remains and make more of their bogus claims .

Ohio -- the evolution skeptic.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't believe the theory of evolution is "well supported."

I say phooey to "evolutionary science" and the development of "Cro-Magnon craniums."

One of my roommates in college was a precious african-american brother from the Cleveland ghetto. His profile looked just like Neanderthal man. Imagine one day they excavate his remains and make more of their bogus claims .

Ohio -- the evolution skeptic.

"I don't believe in evolution. Man devolved ... into the lowest form of animal on the earth." - Mark Twain

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't believe the theory of evolution is "well supported."

I say phooey to "evolutionary science" and the development of "Cro-Magnon craniums."

One of my roommates in college was a precious african-american brother from the Cleveland ghetto. His profile looked just like Neanderthal man. Imagine one day they excavate his remains and make more of their bogus claims .

Ohio -- the evolution skeptic.

A theory is not a law, and it is much easier to disprove a theory than to prove it. Saying it is "well supported" only means that all of the evidence so far supports the theory and there is no hard evidence to disprove it.

That said, there is still very much about DNA that we do not know. For example, there is evidence that the dna for a dinosaur can be found in modern birds. It seems, and this is the theory based on some very interesting experiments that DNA is something like an instruction manual on how to build a creature, and what happens is not so much that previous instructions have been lost, but rather there are new instructions to ignore them. It is almost like getting a manual on how to build a bird that says to skip the first 5 chapters on dinosaurs and start on chapter 6.

If this is in fact true, then it would explain "Lazarus Taxa" the remergence of extinct species millions of years later. It also means we can bring back extinct species in the future. Pretty cool.

Some of the biggest questions about the theory though revolve around humans. For example, the human brain is a very expensive organ for the body to maintain. In particular our ability to read is very costly and comes at the expense of a photographic memory. For hunter gatherers like apes, a photographic memory would be extremely beneficial, whereas for any species without a written language it seems the ability to read would be a big waste. So, according to the theory of evolution how do you explain apes favoring a genetic mutation to reading at the expense of a photographic memory?

Second, by any measure the human brain seems highly evolved (specialized) and by comparison our reproductive system seems very primitive and very hit or miss. That seems to contradict the theory. If the driving force is the perpetuation of the species why wouldn't the reproductive system be the most highly evolved?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

"I don't believe in evolution. Man devolved ... into the lowest form of animal on the earth." - Mark Twain

I saw a very funny movie that ran with the theory of evolution, but they start by pointing out that white trash in trailer parks have more kids that the phd crowd, so based on the theory they predict an evolution towards extreme white trash. Simple premise which leads to some pretty good humor.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The theory of evolution is well supported without any reference to aliens. As I understand it, the Sumerian texts describe bioengineering a race of humans to work as slaves. Egyptian hieroglyphs seem to suggest the idea of bioengineering. And the fossil record does show a remarkably quick growth of the human cranium that seems very rapid by evolutionary standards.

One does not necessarily support or negate the other - just a possibility that seems to have some merit worth considering . . .

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

One does not necessarily support or negate the other - just a possibility that seems to have some merit worth considering . . .

There is some evidence that the gene that enables our brain to read could have been planted into man. The reason to suggest this is, as I have already noted, because it does not seem to fit into the theory of evolution.

It is also possible that as a result of this multiple new species were created, and then later weeded out, as we do not have an explanation yet for why the Neanderthals and the "hobbits" went extinct. But conjecture is not evidence. You might argue that ancient texts describing bioengineering are supported by the fossil record of man. But, realistically, it is not a theory that is supported by much physical evidence.

What i do find interesting is that viruses and diseases can now be seen as biological warfare. In other words, if I wipe out people in the middle ages with the black plague, what I have really done is equip this group of people with a biologic weapon that only they are immune to. Now, they go to America and the Indians are wiped out much easier because there are many diseases that people are exposed to and develop immunity to when they live in cities versus growing up in a rural setting.

[OBW]

First, I will admit that I am not necessarily an evolution skeptic. I am fully open to discover that rather than random chance, it was orderly set in motion.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So, according to the theory of evolution how do you explain apes favoring a genetic mutation to reading at the expense of a photographic memory?

This branches from the idea that man "evolved" from the apes rather than the idea that they both evolved from a common ancestor and went their own ways. That would take that one difference off of the "what's wrong with evolution" table.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is some evidence that the gene that enables our brain to read could have been planted into man. The reason to suggest this is, as I have already noted, because it does not seem to fit into the theory of evolution.

There you have it -- scientific evidence that the "ultimate alien" named Jehovah God created man by planting a gene into man's brain -- and man became a living soul.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by OBW

First, I will admit that I am not necessarily an evolution skeptic. I am fully open to discover that rather than random chance, it was orderly set in motion.
This branches from the idea that man "evolved" from the apes rather than the idea that they both evolved from a common ancestor and went their own ways. That would take that one difference off of the "what's wrong with evolution" table.

Doesn't change the facts. At one point in our history we were hunter gatherers. So how does a genetic mutation that seems to have very little if any advantage but a huge disadvantage become a trait so dominant that all humans have it?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

For example, the human brain is a very expensive organ for the body to maintain.

Let me suggest that the loss of the human brain is even more costly to maintain.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Second, by any measure the human brain seems highly evolved (specialized) and by comparison our reproductive system seems very primitive and very hit or miss. That seems to contradict the theory. If the driving force is the perpetuation of the species why wouldn't the reproductive system be the most highly evolved?

That was before Cialis.

[OBW]

And all of the seeming flaws in the theory at least suggest that it might have been more directed than allowed to go its "natural" way. In other words, there may be evolution, but it never was "natural selection."

[ZNPaaneah]

Another issue is the precision with which the pyramids were built.

"The precision with which the Pyramid of Khufu (the Great Pyramid) was executed is often the source of marvel and speculation. The orientation of the Great Pyramid in relationship to true north is such as to cause it to be declared the "most accurately oriented edifice on earth." That is to say, its four sides are directed to the four cardinal points of the compass with less than 3 minutes of one degree off true north [the Second Pyramid of Giza exhibits a consistent accuracy of alignment which is also extremely impressive: just 6 arc minutes from true north]. By comparison, the Paris Observatory is 6 minutes of one degree off true north." (http://www.ancientx.com/nm/anmviewer.asp?a=76&z=1)

The accuracy of the alignment with which the pyramids were built is more precise than modern skyscrapers. We currently use surveyors equipment, lasers and even GPS to align our skyscrapers. Now we do have the technology to align them even more precisely, but why? It would just add greatly to the expense. This proves that the Pyramids were built with high technology.

1. So then where did these people thousands of years ago get the high technology to build these massive structures so precisely?

2. Why was it important to be this precise?

3. What happened to the technology afterwards, where did it disappear to?

4. What was the purpose of these massive stone structures that were built with such a high level of precision and accuracy? (Even to this day there is no evidence that the Great pyramid was a tomb. Even if it was plundered how could they have swept it so clean? Surely there would have been broken shards, and other evidence of a tomb.)