Paul, An Apostle of Christ movie take away

[Jo S]

Have any of you guys seen the movie, "Paul, an Apostle of Christ"? I saw it the other day and had a take away from it that I wanted to share with you all. I'd like to hear your thoughts as well.

I'm not going to comment on the cultural accuracy of the film but there was one historical aspect presented in the movie that particularly stood out to me.

If you didn't see the movie, basically it took place in Rome during the time Paul was imprisoned there shortly before his martyrdom.

This was also at a time Emperor Nero was brutally persecuting the Christian church.

There were scenes in the movie where it portrayed how Christians would all gather together in hiding to a specific place within the city in attempts to avoid being caught and executed by the Romans.

*Now as a side note, I'm somewhat familiar with the LC's teachings on locality but you guys would definitely know better than me however I understand it's basic premise.

Anyway, the climate in which these early churches met particularly stood out to me and I thought, "You know what? The LC is missing one major and particularly bitter ingredient in it's teachings on biblical locality......persecution"

I couldn't help but to notice how the elements of basic survival played a role in the gathering of the early churches. Safety in numbers....

The formation of the early churches just make more sense to me when you factor into the equation a necessity for presevation in a time where the very existence of the faith was challenged to the extreme. It may not be a pleasant variable but it was there nonetheless.

Compare this with the LC's move of the formation of local churches today. It seems based more on business strategy and the will of man rather than the elements that were present in early Christianity.

With that said, let me share with you an analogy;

I compare Christ's church to a precious stone. A diamond is beautiful but that beauty doesn't come easy. It takes tremendous amounts of heat and pressure over a long period of time to give a natural diamond the beauty and resilience it's known for.

On the other hand, take a synthetic diamond made in a laboratory. They are made in controlled enviroments to have the same chemical and physical characteristics that organic diamonds have but they only take a very short amount of time and fewer steps to achieve those same properties. However there's one thing that gives a fake diamond away; microscopic metallic inclusions left over from the manufacturing process.

I compare the LC and all other fleeting man-made movements to establish a "pure" Christianity on earth to synthetic diamonds. They are all formed over a short period of time and took only few processes to establish. To the naked eye, they look to be the real thing but upon closer examination you'll find the tell tale signs that show them to be false. In the end they won't retain any real value.

What makes a real diamond precious is not only it's rarity but the many organic processes and unique conditions that were present throughout it's formation.

Only the Lord can know how to form his church. Like many others here, I grow tired from seeing the condition of this world and cannot wait for the Lord's return, however, when we turn ourselves into a force with the intent to quicken his return historically nothing good has become of those movements.

"Here is a call for the patient endurance of the saints."

So to all those that pray for the body of believers to come together, as in biblical times, I say be aware of exactly what it is you are pray for. Nevertheless the Lord's will be done.

[Evangelical]

"There were scenes in the movie where it portrayed how Christians would all gather together in hiding to a specific place within the city in attempts to avoid being caught and executed by the Romans."

This really emphasizes the importance of locality. Christians gathered by location, not by belief/denomination.

"Compare this with the LC's move of the formation of local churches today. It seems based more on business strategy and the will of man rather than the elements that were present in early Christianity. "

I think the elements of a church which came from persecution are definitely there.

Historically the local churches were formed out of persecution in China. Later experiencing theological persecution in the West mostly from Christianity (by books being published calling it a cult etc, which caused more persecution in China).

This "persecution culture" is reflected somewhat in the local church style of meetings:

1)Plurality of elders (hence, the government cannot simply put the head priest or pastor in jail to destroy the church)

2)Emphasis on rote learning and remembering the Bible - necessary if Bible's are destroyed

3)Emphasis on praying effective short and sharp prayers and short words of encouragement - necessary if corporate prayer time is limited.

4)Minimal emphasis on fixtures and trimmings in buildings - meeting location may change at moment's notice or building may be destroyed.

5)No crosses out the front - no large advertisements advertising that it is a church.

6)Emphasis on home meetings rather than Sunday services - meetings can be held in a private and secure environment, safe from the government spies.

7)Praying with eyes open - the majority of people pray with their eyes open.

8)A persecuted mindset - the local churches stand against Islam, the Catholic Church and the state churches which traditionally have persecuted brethren churches and similar. As such there is a level of wariness.

So the local churches have been and still are a persecuted church today. This is reflected in their attitudes and style of meetings.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

"There were scenes in the movie where it portrayed how Christians would all gather together in hiding to a specific place within the city in attempts to avoid being caught and executed by the Romans."

This really emphasizes the importance of locality. Christians gathered by location, not by belief/denomination.

"Compare this with the LC's move of the formation of local churches today. It seems based more on business strategy and the will of man rather than the elements that were present in early Christianity. "

Have you not read any testimonies here?

How about the sister with children who had to travel 30 miles or the LC members would shun her. Read her testimony below.

Sounds like the "ground of locality" would have killed many a brother and sister in the early church.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Unless we meet our sisters' qualifications for fellowship...meet a minimum of twice a month, and lunch with the sisters in the ministry on Fridays. This, by the way, to take place 30 miles from our home, where the Lee church meets, in order to be reinstated as worthwhile to meet with an old dear friend who lives within 5 miles of us.....what??? That is Deception talking the talk and walking the walk.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Only the Lord can know how to form his church. Like many others here, I grow tired from seeing the condition of this world and cannot wait for the Lord's return, however, when we turn ourselves into a force with the intent to quicken his return historically nothing good has become of those movements.

"Here is a call for the patient endurance of the saints."

So to all those that pray for the body of believers to come together, as in biblical times, I say be aware of exactly what it is you are pray for. Nevertheless the Lord's will be done.

Hi JoS,
I didn't see the movie so I can't speak to that. To the matter of the Lord forming His church I agree with you...He knows what He is doing. I really trust in His fellowship when I am before Him in prayer...and it was definitely His speaking, or what was actually His "pre"-speaking which I was able to then contrast with the pressure tactics...the pressure "fellowship" I was getting from the LC right before it all ended for us there....He gave me such a love for His body...I mean all the saints...I just ended up with this wish...to visit and fellowship with all His believers, the true body of Christ, that is, worldwide, believers in Jesus...this joyful desire to meet every one of my brothers and sisters in Christ bubbling up in me (and I believe I will in heaven)...this contrasted so sharply with the LC saints ernest desire to share Gods "hatred" of denominations...this was one contrast that really opened my eyes in my last days "in" the LC. I mean, He imparted His love for the body me in such a tangible way...and the LC simply doesn't match the Jesus I know. Truly, His sheep know His voice....and as for me, I trust His voice over and above even a genuine group of His own...which I know they are...only off His narrow way...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Only the Lord can know how to form his church. Like many others here, I grow tired from seeing the condition of this world and cannot wait for the Lord's return, however, when we turn ourselves into a force with the intent to quicken his return historically nothing good has become of those movements.

Good analogy of the natural and synthetic diamonds bro Jo S.

But don't tell those of the Restoration and Recovery movements that nothing good comes from their movements.

They actually believe they can reverse engineer back to the church in Acts. Don't tell them they are believing like the Cargo Cults.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

Good analogy of the natural and synthetic diamonds bro Jo S.

But don't tell those of the Restoration and Recovery movements that nothing good comes from their movements.

They actually believe they can reverse engineer back to the church in Acts. Don't tell them they are believing like the Cargo Cults.

To the LC's credit, there is the understanding of the importance of unity within the body of Christ looking beyond denominational status or creed. However, ironically this understanding has become an ideology rather than the result of an organic work of the Lord as we've read about in the early churches.

Things for Christians weren't as glamorous back then. For all of us in the US, we're living in relative peace and security so it's easy to have a disconnect from the realities our brothers and sisters faced in the early days or are now facing in the east.

For the Christians in biblicial times "locality" wasn't a practice or a doctrine, it was a necessity and essential for the faith's survival. These churches met on personal properties and lived together in quarters within cities or slums rather than having convenient sunday meetings in million dollar 501(c)(3) tax exempt facilities. For those in the LC that condemn Judaism, tax exemption began with Jewish synogogues in Rome.... So there's that. I'm not bashing tax exempt churches or meeting on Sundays but if you claim you're living out the bible, why not then go all the way?

This type of biblical unity we read about, I believe, can't be recreated in places where the faith isn't being persecuted. The intentions are admirable but what real reason is there for establishing a pattern of Christianity like the LC pushes to places as tolerant toward religion as the west is? In the end, it's no more than business because there isn't practical use for this type of mindset.

I believe the Lord has more use for his body in having true believers spread out amongst the denominations and non-denominational churches. In times of peace I believe that's a much better strategy, not only for preservation, but also for witnessing rather than having the entirety of believers in a particular city all under one minister like Lee or Chu. Even then, these men oversaw not just one city but many cities. This type of influence and control is dangerous.

You might argue, "Paul oversaw many churches".....Well, I'd say until Jesus Christ himself appears to you in blinding glory in front of multiple witnesses and then you go through the type of tribulations Paul has gone through to prepare him for this level of ministry then you really don't have an argument.

My point is that we may not see a true biblical unity of believers until the great tribulation or maybe even after when Christ returns, I don't know for sure. We most likely won't see any other "super apostles" or "MOTAs" perhaps until the two witnesses appear on the earth.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

...this contrasted so sharply with the LC saints ernest desire to share Gods "hatred" of denominations...this was one contrast that really opened my eyes in my last days "in" the LC.

Hang in there sister. Pray for discernment.

The type of elitist mentality that's found within in the LC reminds me of what traditions tell of a younger Mohammed.

The story goes that the Mohammed of the Islamic faith had an angelic visitation and received a religious epiphany of some sort. His first impulse was to travel to Jerusalem and seek recognition from the Jews as a true prophet of God. Basically the tradition states that Mohammed was literally laughed out of the city by the Jewish leaders and since that time has held a deep hatred and resentment for the Jews. In retaliation he ended created his very own religion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

With that said, let me share with you an analogy;

I compare Christ's church to a precious stone. A diamond is beautiful but that beauty doesn't come easy. It takes tremendous amounts of heat and pressure over a long period of time to give a natural diamond the beauty and resilience it's known for.

On the other hand, take a synthetic diamond made in a laboratory. They are made in controlled environments to have the same chemical and physical characteristics that organic diamonds have but they only take a very short amount of time and fewer steps to achieve those same properties. However there's one thing that gives a fake diamond away; microscopic metallic inclusions left over from the manufacturing process.

Since I have a gemologist in the family, I have learned that fake diamonds called cubic zirconium (CZ) are readily identified by their so-called "perfection." Real diamonds, however, always have some kind of flaw. What might seem "perfect" to the naked eye, or even with 10x power magnification, will be seen with higher power.

Learning this became significant in the context of the LCM and LSM's lust for uniformity among all the LC's. Real life is just not "perfect." Only Jesus Christ is perfect. All of nature is flawed in some way, but manufactured fakes like CZ fake diamonds can appear "perfect," and that signals a trained eye as to its real worth -- next to nothing. They only look pretty. They are worthless, however. Better to have a badly flawed, but real, diamond than a perfect CZ fake diamond.

LSM may love and demand "CZ" LC's all pretty and uniform, with each reading from the same book, giving identical testimonies, and lauding the "rich" ministry of WL, but God loves diversity, and God prefers all the "flaws" in this age, seeing the work of His Spirit on these precious stones. LSM deceives itself and its members into thinking that their perfect "CZ" uniformity is preferred to the genuine, but flawed, oneness which God desires.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Since I have a gemologist in the family, I have learned that fake diamonds called cubic zirconium (CZ) are readily identified by their so-called "perfection." Real diamonds, however, always have some kind of flaw. What might seem "perfect" to the naked eye, or even with 10x power magnification, will be seen with higher power.

Learning this became significant in the context of the LCM and LSM's lust for uniformity among all the LC's. Real life is just not "perfect." Only Jesus Christ is perfect. All of nature is flawed in some way, but manufactured fakes like CZ fake diamonds can appear "perfect," and that signals a trained eye as to its real worth -- next to nothing. They only look pretty. They are worthless, however. Better to have a badly flawed, but real, diamond than a perfect CZ fake diamond.

LSM may love and demand "CZ" LC's all pretty and uniform, with each reading from the same book, giving identical testimonies, and lauding the "rich" ministry of WL, but God loves diversity, and God prefers all the "flaws" in this age, seeing the work of His Spirit on these precious stones. LSM deceives itself and its members into thinking that their perfect "CZ" uniformity is preferred to the genuine, but flawed, oneness which God desires.

It works that way as well. No doubt a natural diamond is more desirable to the Lord.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This type of biblical unity we read about, I believe, can't be recreated in places where the faith isn't being persecuted..

Good point. I know of at least three times where Christianity was the dominant force in society. Legal, social, political, economic, philosophical, cultural.

1. In the fourth century, it covered the Levant. Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Greece, Turkey, Iran, Libya, Italy . . all were Christianised.
2. Europe under the RCC, pre-Reformation.
3. North America under the Protestants.

All three enjoyed unparalleled prosperity and complete hegemony. And for what. I find religion of the masses to be. . . hm. . . not so appealing.

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. I know I've been repeating this lately, but it isn't a dead horse. It's the gospel. There is forgiveness and eternal life in the name of Jesus. Don't get distracted by the rest of it.

Paul went to the gentiles. He presented abstract principles. The Body. Etc. But don't let abstract principles make you look away from Jesus. Only Jesus saves. If you seek The Body you will go where the rest went before you. . . astray. Paul is good but don't let the letter of Paul usurp the Spirit of Jesus. We are too clever by half and Satan is cleverer still. Don't play into his hand. Stay in Jesus.

Peace.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

Good point. I know of at least three times where Christianity was the dominant force in society. Legal, social, political, economic, philosophical, cultural.

1. In the fourth century, it covered the Levant. Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Greece, Turkey, Iran, Libya, Italy . . all were Christianised.
2. Europe under the RCC, pre-Reformation.
3. North America under the Protestants.

All three enjoyed unparalleled prosperity and complete hegemony. And for what. I find religion of the masses to be. . . hm. . . not so appealing.

God raised Jesus Christ from the dead on the third day. I know I've been repeating this lately, but it isn't a dead horse. It's the gospel. There is forgiveness and eternal life in the name of Jesus. Don't get distracted by the rest of it.

Paul went to the gentiles. He presented abstract principles. The Body. Etc. But don't let abstract principles make you look away from Jesus. Only Jesus saves. If you seek The Body you will go where the rest went before you. . . astray. Paul is good but don't let the letter of Paul usurp the Spirit of Jesus. We are too clever by half and Satan is cleverer still. Don't play into his hand. Stay in Jesus.

Peace.

I have to agree with this, Aron. There is something good about seeing the one body of Christ....which we are, in reality.

But there is something completely mental about one group obsessing on the one body and attempting to make it a physical reality on earth today. This reminds me of those unfortunate people who have a strange need to dominate and control others around them...it cannot and should not be done.

One simple reality is, it is completely impractical, to gather every christian on the planet under your own man made banner, and shun them if they don't comply....totally mental! We are already one body, the one body of Christ....we believers have one name that unites us, Jesus name...His blood shed, His sacrifice on the cross, His resurrection, His ascention....you cannot expect every believer to conform to one mans flawed ministry...it is not required of us in the word....it is extranneous to Gods way...He said His work is to believe in the One whom the Father sent and love one another....the ordinances set forth by the LC do not apply, are completely invalid requirements...they are manmade garbage.

Back to your point, Aron...it is dangerous to get distracted from Jesus. This focus on perfecting meeting, perfecting bodylife...this is looking at ourselves in contrast to looking away unto Jesus, our Way. Looking at the church is to take our Own way.

[JJ]

Nice thread start Jo S. And, love the discussion y'all.

Christ is all and in all in the new human.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

To the LC's credit, there is the understanding of the importance of unity within the body of Christ looking beyond denominational status or creed. However, ironically this understanding has become an ideology rather than the result of an organic work of the Lord as we've read about in the early churches.

Things for Christians weren't as glamorous back then. For all of us in the US, we're living in relative peace and security so it's easy to have a disconnect from the realities our brothers and sisters faced in the early days or are now facing in the east.

For the Christians in biblicial times "locality" wasn't a practice or a doctrine, it was a necessity and essential for the faith's survival. These churches met on personal properties and lived together in quarters within cities or slums rather than having convenient sunday meetings in million dollar 501(c)(3) tax exempt facilities. For those in the LC that condemn Judaism, tax exemption began with Jewish synogogues in Rome.... So there's that. I'm not bashing tax exempt churches or meeting on Sundays but if you claim you're living out the bible, why not then go all the way?

This type of biblical unity we read about, I believe, can't be recreated in places where the faith isn't being persecuted. The intentions are admirable but what real reason is there for establishing a pattern of Christianity like the LC pushes to places as tolerant toward religion as the west is? In the end, it's no more than business because there isn't practical use for this type of mindset.

I believe the Lord has more use for his body in having true believers spread out amongst the denominations and non-denominational churches. In times of peace I believe that's a much better strategy, not only for preservation, but also for witnessing rather than having the entirety of believers in a particular city all under one minister like Lee or Chu. Even then, these men oversaw not just one city but many cities. This type of influence and control is dangerous.

You might argue, "Paul oversaw many churches".....Well, I'd say until Jesus Christ himself appears to you in blinding glory in front of multiple witnesses and then you go through the type of tribulations Paul has gone through to prepare him for this level of ministry then you really don't have an argument.

My point is that we may not see a true biblical unity of believers until the great tribulation or maybe even after when Christ returns, I don't know for sure. We most likely won't see any other "super apostles" or "MOTAs" perhaps until the two witnesses appear on the earth.

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy". Paul also said "is Christ divided?". I cannot see that Paul would think division is a better strategy either.

You have it back to front. In times of peace, a family should be united together. Maybe it is more effective and practical for a family to be divided, imagine, the husband could live near his work place and the wife near hers. The kids could live near their school, it would be easier for everyone. But they are still one family, not divided, they just live in different places and never see each other.

A man and woman living apart sends the message that the couple is separated. Married couples should live together especially when there is no reason to be apart. Divisions present a message to the world that Christianity is divided, even though you and everyone else says it isn't. Consider how an unbeliever sees the church - Christianity looks more fragmented and divided than Islam, and Islam is supposed to be the religion which promotes violence.

If Christians have no reason to be apart from each other, in times of peace, then there is really no reason for the denominations to exist.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy".

If this line of reasoning was correct, Christ would have never left us in the first place.

This is the same savior that sent out his disciples into the villages two by two (Mark 6:7)

And all it takes is two or three to gather in his name and he will be with them (Matthew 18:20)

You're marraige analogy would be valid if not for the fact that Christ's marriage supper takes place only when he returns and not before.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy". Paul also said "is Christ divided?". I cannot see that Paul would think division is a better strategy either.

You have it back to front. In times of peace, a family should be united together. Maybe it is more effective and practical for a family to be divided, imagine, the husband could live near his work place and the wife near hers. The kids could live near their school, it would be easier for everyone. But they are still one family, not divided, they just live in different places and never see each other.

A man and woman living apart sends the message that the couple is separated. Married couples should live together especially when there is no reason to be apart. Divisions present a message to the world that Christianity is divided, even though you and everyone else says it isn't. Consider how an unbeliever sees the church - Christianity looks more fragmented and divided than Islam, and Islam is supposed to be the religion which promotes violence.

If Christians have no reason to be apart from each other, in times of peace, then there is really no reason for the denominations to exist.

Then how can you live with yourself after watching LSM divorce the Brazil and Midwest LC's? Talk about living "apart." Consider how all the unbelievers viewed LSM during their lawsuits and quarantines for TC merely wanting clean sheets in Thailand?

Do you live in a cave with LSM's "vast online library?" How do you justify the events in the real world?

Does LSM really think that these ancient Christians hiding out in the Roman catacombs or the Cappadocian cave dwellings would demand a "One Publication Policy" or excommunicate their brothers for "playing drums?"

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I cannot see that the same God who said "A kingdom divided cannot stand" would think division is " a much better strategy". Paul also said "is Christ divided?"

Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions." Is this division? Why not?

And contrast that picture of variety to the bland, man- made uniformity of Babel: bricks, not living stones. Just like stacked cubic zirconium.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

If this line of reasoning was correct, Christ would have never left us in the first place.

Did Christ really leave? Ever heard of the Holy Spirit? "I will not leave you orphans" (John 14:18).

Originally Posted by Jo S

This is the same savior that sent out his disciples into the villages two by two (Mark 6:7)

And all it takes is two or three to gather in his name and he will be with them (Matthew 18:20)

Got it. He sent them out by denominational preference .

Originally Posted by Jo S

You're marraige analogy would be valid if not for the fact that Christ's marriage supper takes place only when he returns and not before.

There is no where in the Bible which even hints at a plan or strategy of dividing the church or believers into different denominations, between the time of Christ and His return.

Instead, there are numerous verses which state that division is bad - as I posted before.

I cannot see that the Lord Jesus who desired this:

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

would ever desire this:

I believe the Lord has more use for his body in having true believers spread out amongst the denominations and non-denominational churches

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many mansions." Is this division? Why not?

And contrast that picture of variety to the bland, man- made uniformity of Babel: bricks, not living stones. Just like stacked cubic zirconium.

From MacLaren's Expositions

Are they to dwell isolated in their several mansions? Is that the way in which children in a home dwell with each other?

A solitary heaven would be but half a heaven, and would ill correspond with the hopes that inevitably spring from the representation of it as ‘my Father’s house.’

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Got it. He sent them out by denominational preference?

Naw ... they were quarantined for playing stringed instruments.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Naw ... they were quarantined for playing stringed instruments.

It is of note that Christ did not choose any musicians to be his disciples.

[aron]

A house divided was in reference to casting out demons. If you cast out Christian's who are not subservient to a publishing house in Anaheim California (note that RK & BP tolerate no deviance from the party line) then you are divided. If you say, "Everybody but us is divided" then you have made yourself the most divided.

A house with many rooms has separate quarters but they are connected. They are not hermetically sealed.

"Oh no" says the one who wants to be hermetically sealed. "Now you are talking ecumenism". And with such words they build walls and hide.

[aron]

"Let us go with him, outside the camp" - the camp is an artificial construction to keep out the dark. Outside the camp, a pure light shines which overcomes the dark. The whole world will be illuminated by its glory. (Isa 60:19; Rev 21:23)

The LC is a camp just like the SDA, JW and LDS. Maybe a little better but not much. It is a self- made prison. "If every one was just like me, there could be peace."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

A house divided was in reference to casting out demons. If you cast out Christian's who are not subservient to a publishing house in Anaheim California (note that RK & BP tolerate no deviance from the party line) then you are divided. If you say, "Everybody but us is divided" then you have made yourself the most divided.

A house with many rooms has separate quarters but they are connected. They are not hermetically sealed.

"Oh no" says the one who wants to be hermetically sealed. "Now you are talking ecumenism". And with such words they build walls and hide.

Christianity is divided and has been since the Reformation, and before that, the East-West schism. Let's not pretend it isn't. Let's not forget that fact, and as Protestants, not forget that division is the reason we're not all still saying our Hail Mary's today. So because of these facts don't think you can take some sort of high moral ground about us being the "most divided" compared to the thousands of denominations in existence today because of the division that Luther and others caused. You can't re-write history, and pretend that thousands of denominations existing today are somehow closer to unity than the single greatest division that Luther caused, or, claim that those who leave or wish to leave that system of thousands of denominations are somehow "more divided" than those who don't.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You can't re-write history or, claim that those who leave or wish to leave that system of thousands of denominations are somehow "more divided" than those who don't.

If the Protestants are a division then why do you sing their songs? You are trying to have it both ways.

The LC treads on the legitimacy of the Protestants in order to gain converts, then rejects the Protestants as an illigitimate division. Only naive rubes will fall for this trick; such was I, once.

"Everyone but us is a division" is just building your own personal wall. Who is trying to re-write history, here? And when you talk of history, you'd do well to remember the rejection of the Jews, and Chalcedon. The problem is much deeper than you realise. Unless you grasp the problem you can't see the solution.

The gospel is simple and profound. God raised Jesus on the third day. Either you believe or you don't. There is no reason to build walls.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

If the Protestants are a division then why do you sing their songs? You are trying to have it both ways.

Because the songs are right or biblical, not because the songs are Protestant.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Christianity is divided and has been since the Reformation, and before that, the East-West schism. Let's not pretend it isn't. Let's not forget that fact, and as Protestants, not forget that division is the reason we're not all still saying our Hail Mary's today. So because of these facts don't think you can take some sort of high moral ground about us being the "most divided" compared to the thousands of denominations in existence today because of the division that Luther and others caused. You can't re-write history, and pretend that thousands of denominations existing today are somehow closer to unity than the single greatest division that Luther caused, or, claim that those who leave or wish to leave that system of thousands of denominations are somehow "more divided" than those who don't.

And you think yours are not in division?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

..... then rejects the Protestants as an illigitimate division.

Aron,

I think you mean a legitimate division. We believe Protestantism is a legitimate and bonafide division therefore we reject it. Or we consider denominating the Body of Christ illegitimate so we reject it. Either of those would be true.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It is of note that Christ did not choose any musicians to be his disciples.

How would you know?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because the songs are right or biblical, not because the songs are Protestant.

This is wallowing in the swamp of Lee's subjectivism. Only Jesus Christ meets the standard. To parse others with too fine a comb is to invite judgment. Either the Protestants are "right" and "proper" or they are not.

I note that the Mormons consider Protestant songs as "right" and "proper", and probably for the same reason - an inferred patina of legitimacy.

And biblical - ha. Southern USA snake handlers are also biblical.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

Aron,

I think you mean a legitimate division. We believe Protestantism is a legitimate and bonafide division.

Another subjectivist LC doozey - "legitimate" is whatever Lee wanted it to be.

With God there is no shadow cast by turning. The ministry of LSM is nothing but shadows and turnings. Maybe you don't get this, but most others do.

Only Jesus is legitimate. The ones who judge all others as deficient, who say "We're rich and need nothing" are far from the Way.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Did Christ really leave? Ever heard of the Holy Spirit? "I will not leave you orphans" (John 14:18).

Denomination or no denomination, close or far away, those born of God are all connected through his spirit.

More important than hearing of the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

If you also include the words "in the" in bold letters, you get something much different;

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment

We are to join together "in the same mind and judgment", nowhere in scripture does it say we are all to join "in the same building within in the same city". There may be a time when this will become more of a reality but until then it's only really an ideal that works to isolate believers. Isolation is a form of division.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

those born of God are all connected through his spirit.

Agreed. As saying the relative connectedness of others is a waste of time, at best.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Another subjectivist LC doozey - "legitimate" is whatever Lee wanted it to be.

With God there is no shadow cast by turning. The ministry of LSM is nothing but shadows and turnings. Maybe you don't get this, but most others do.

Only Jesus is legitimate. The ones who judge all others as deficient, who say "We're rich and need nothing" are far from the Way.

Oh, are you saying division is legitimate?

Aron, Wrapping yourself scripture without showing how it is relevant doesn’t add an ounce of credibility to your befuddled argument. Shadow of turning? I don’t think you understand what it means based on the way you tried to apply it. And when you say “only Jesus is legitimate” ... is that like a trump card of some sort, a point to end all debate? You played it as if you have declared some universal truth that applies only to you.

Drake

[aron]

For the umpteenth time, Jesus alone is the way to the Father. He is not called the Way for nothing.

And there is no "true church" to usher you to Jesus. Faith is the way to Jesus. Martin Luther got that one right.

Google "true church" sometime and see how many hits you get. There are lots of claimants. "My fantasy must now become your reality". And that's just the internet-savvy ones; there are scores more off the grid - little isolationist rat-holes squirreled away.

What did one ex-LCer call it? "Off to Freeman-land"? Aka another one bites the dust. Don't give in to the Hive Mind, folks. Jesus is the way.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh, are you saying division is legitimate?

Drake

Only when a MOTA does it. Eh?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

For the umpteenth time, Jesus alone is the way to the Father. He is not called the Way for nothing.

And there is no "true church" to usher you to Jesus. Faith is the way to Jesus. Martin Luther got that one right.

Google "true church" sometime and see how many hits you get. There are lots of claimants. "My fantasy must now become your reality". And that's just the internet-savvy ones; there are scores more off the grid - little isolationist rat-holes squirreled away.

What did one ex-LCer call it? "Off to Freeman-land"? Aka another one bites the dust. Don't give in to the Hive Mind, folks. Jesus is the way.

Aron,

Not sure who you are addressing in that post. If me, then you apparently don’t know what I believe.

Jesus is the only way to the Father? Were we talking about that? Faith is the way to Jesus? Were we talking about that? If that is your objection then I missed it. Now we can get passed it.. I agree with both those statements. How about that?

I am trying to wrap my head around whether you think those basic matters of our shared Christian faith are not known by me or whether you are just pretending like I don’t know them.

True church? Little isolationist rat holes squirreled away? Freeman-land? Hive mind? No idea what in the world you are referring to here, but frankly, those seem like the rat holes you mentioned. Apparently they make sense to you.

Drake

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Only when a MOTA does it. Eh?

Yes, Ohio, now you've got it. Let yourself be carried away by untrammeled subjectivity. When the apostle does it, then it's called taking a stand for the truth. When someone else does it, it's called either division or rebellion, depending on relations with the MOTA.

I am a Protestant because I was saved in the Community Bible Church. Paul said, "In what you were called, remain." But I don't presume superiority just because I meet there.

[Jo S]

Drake, do you happen to have any comments pertaining to my original post?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Drake, do you happen to have any comments pertaining to my original post?

No, I haven’t seen that movie Jo S. I saw the one recently about Jesus but not the one about Paul. I saw your point about early believers. I think there is more than just persecution as a factor. When Paul addressed churches in the city they were in they were not all being persecuted.Happy to address any specific point you may have.

Drake

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Drake

No, I haven’t seen that movie Jo S. I saw the one recently about Jesus but not the one about Paul.

The topic was concerning the take away I had from the movie, and not the movie itself. If you'd like to share some thoughts on that, please feel free.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Jo S

The topic was concerning the take away I had from the movie, and not the movie itself. If you'd like to share some thoughts on that, please feel free.

You mean the aspect of persecution... or the diamond analogy? Or both?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Drake

I think there is more than just persecution as a factor. When Paul addressed churches in the city they were in they were not all being persecuted.Happy to address any specific point you may have.

Drake

Ok, I see you edited your post to add a thought.

Do you happen to have any historical backing to your belief in that some of the churches that Paul addressed weren't under persecution? I have to admit I honestly haven't looked into that too much and more or less assumed that to be the case. Although I do believe it to be an accurate assumption.

Originally Posted by Drake

You mean the aspect of persecution... or the diamond analogy? Or both?

The last thing I want to do is force you to comment, if you don't feel the need to then by all means please don't. Otherwise I'd be curious to hear your thoughts concerning anything written in my original post.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Denomination or no denomination, close or far away, those born of God are all connected through his spirit.

More important than hearing of the Holy Spirit is receiving the Holy Spirit.

That doesn't mean much in practice unless there is a way for those believers to meet and coordinate together in a practical way. For example, in the early church the gospel spread by the local churches sending out evangelists with their blessing and supporting the gospel ministry by receiving new disciples and caring for them. The evangelists would then report back to the local churches about the work which had been done.

The gospel did not spread by individuals writing letters to each other about how connected they are in the Spirit and never meeting and coordinating together.

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you also include the words "in the" in bold letters, you get something much different;

1 Cor 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment

We are to join together "in the same mind and judgment", nowhere in scripture does it say we are all to join "in the same building within in the same city". There may be a time when this will become more of a reality but until then it's only really an ideal that works to isolate believers. Isolation is a form of division.

Denominations are the result of different Christians not having the same mind and judgement. For example, baptists have the opinion that baptism by full immersion is necessary. That's why they are baptists and not presbyterians.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How would you know?

Because Scripture states the apostles were unlearned men. Also, because the bible don't say so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because Scripture states the apostles were unlearned men. Also, because the bible don't say so.

No it does not.

Just another one of your gross extrapolations.

Paul was one of the most "learned" men of the 1st century.

The Bible never tells us about your "ground" of oneness or the "minister of the age," but that never stopped you from believing it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Denominations are the result of different Christians not having the same mind and judgement. For example, baptists have the opinion that baptism by full immersion is necessary. That's why they are baptists and not presbyterians.

And you believe all Christians must read only Lee's books.

Tell me who is more divisive? Tell me whose "mind and judgment" needs some improvement?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No it does not.

Just another one of your gross extrapolations.

Paul was one of the most "learned" men of the 1st century.

The Bible never tells us about your "ground" of oneness or the "minister of the age," but that never stopped you from believing it.

I was thinking of the 12 disciples primarily. There's no mention of their musical ability.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And you believe all Christians must read only Lee's books.

Tell me who is more divisive? Tell me whose "mind and judgment" needs some improvement?

It's a simple fact that 1000 Christians in one church reading different Bible versions, and different devotionals and books at home, will not all have the same mind and judgement. The breadth of their opinion might resemble the wide variety of pickings available from local Christian bookstores, anything from Catholic to more New Age and everything in between.

For example, on the topic of is Lucifer the name of Satan.. those who read the American Standard Version which omits the name Lucifer, will probably disagree with those who read other versions.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I was thinking of the 12 disciples primarily. There's no mention of their musical ability.

At the Last Supper they all sang a hymn. Because there is no mention of instruments, you ASSUME that none of them EVER used an instrument to sing or worship God. Do you realize that some of the Psalms actually give instruction for instruments? Surely the Jewish church would know this. Paul even instructed the Gentile churches to be filled in Spirit singing and Psalming.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's a simple fact that 1000 Christians in one church reading different Bible versions, and different devotionals and books at home, will not all have the same mind and judgement. The breadth of their opinion might resemble the wide variety of pickings available from local Christian bookstores, anything from Catholic to more New Age and everything in between.

For example, on the topic of is Lucifer the name of Satan.. those who read the American Standard Version which omits the name Lucifer, will probably disagree with those who read other versions.

It is not a "simple fact!"

Our oneness is of the Spirit. It is not one ministry, one book, or one bible version that will make us all "one." LSM has proven that repeatedly -- we had all that, and they still found a way to cut off the Midwest LC's and Brazil. In the last go round, they cut off half SoCal, Europe, and Africa.

Do you really think that if all Christians used the same name for Satan, we would then all be one?

Perhaps you might want to reconsider the oneness of the Spirit based on the scripture. Pick any version you like.

[Jo S]

Just curious, if you guys were to liken the LC to a church in Revelation which one would it be?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Just curious, if you guys were to liken the LC to a church in Revelation which one would it be?

W. Lee said it best -- he often told us that we had become Laodicea.

Problem is -- he never took any responsibility -- rather he blamed the LC's for what his ministry did.

[UntoHim]

Hi Jo S,
Thank you so much for all your valuable contribution to our little forum.

My answer to your question would be that the Local Church(es) of Witness Lee are probably like the vast majority of Christian denominations/sects/movements - There is a little of all those 7 churches in the LCM. And just like in other movements, different aspects of those 7 churches may describe the condition of the movement at different points in time.

I might be in the minority, but I do not feel as strong as others that these seven churches strictly represent 7 historical eras of the Church. As I noted above, all of the different aspects, both negative and positive, could be applied to the Christian church at large (aka the visible Body of Christ) in different world regions and at different times in history. Also, the various aspects of these 7 first century churches could be applied to any particular denomination/sect/movement at any particular stage of their existence.

Sorry, very long answer to a real simple question!
-

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Hi Jo S,
Thank you so much for all your valuable contribution to our little forum.

My answer to your question would be that the Local Church(es) of Witness Lee are probably like the vast majority of Christian denominations/sects/movements - There is a little of all those 7 churches in the LCM. And just like in other movements, different aspects of those 7 churches may describe the condition of the movement at different points in time.

I might be in the minority, but I do not feel as strong as others that these seven churches strictly represent 7 historical eras of the Church. As I noted above, all of the different aspects, both negative and positive, could be applied to the Christian church at large (aka the visible Body of Christ) in different world regions and at different times in history. Also, the various aspects of these 7 first century churches could be applied to any particular denomination/sect/movement at any particular stage of their existence.

Sorry, very long answer to a real simple question!
-

Thanks. It might be a little forum but has the potential to make a big impact in someone's life.

I agree with what you said and I suspect the same was most likely true for the early churches as well.

I suppose if I were to rephrase I'd ask; what church of Revelation would you predominantly liken the LC's to in your opinion?

Also you say "the local churches of Witness Lee". Would you also consider Chu's offshoot part of Lee's LC's?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Also you say "the local churches of Witness Lee". Would you also consider Chu's offshoot part of Lee's LC's?

Well, yes and no.

If you went to a meeting at one of these churches the "flavor" would be nearly identical to a LC meeting. (except prob not as much direct quoting of Witness Lee) The lingo would be very similar. I understand that they have loosened up a bit on the music/singing side, but there are others here that could give you a much more comprehensive answer.

Ohio, why don't you take a shot at this one?
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I agree with what you said and I suspect the same was most likely true for the early churches as well.

I suppose if I were to rephrase I'd ask; what church of Revelation would you predominantly liken the LC's to in your opinion?

I've told this joke before - hopefully enough time has passed & some new readers will enjoy it.

Joe: Hey Fred, did you hear that the apostle John really blasted us in his letter from Patmos?

Fred: No, that was really concerning a church coming about fifteen centuries from now. We're fine.

Joe: Whew. Had me worried there for a minute. I mean, Satan's throne. Wow.

Fred: Nah. It'll be a mystery for about eighteen centuries, then some MOTA will figure it out and recover the true church life 'Philadelphia'.

Joe: Oh, I was wondering about that. So it's just a type.


I see the No Name Church of LSM as Laodicea. "I am rich and need nothing". Witness Lee said that he hadn't learned anything from anyone for 40+ years. His followers call it the "rich ministry of Witness Lee" - I googled that term once and got numerous blog hits. They're out waving the LSM flag online.

Also shades of Ephesus: proud of their Protestant heritage but no love. Teachings upon teachings but no real issue except to recruit others to consume the teachings.

Jesus helped people. They say, "That's not our focus."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

At the Last Supper they all sang a hymn. Because there is no mention of instruments, you ASSUME that none of them EVER used an instrument to sing or worship God. Do you realize that some of the Psalms actually give instruction for instruments? Surely the Jewish church would know this. Paul even instructed the Gentile churches to be filled in Spirit singing and Psalming.

Thankyou for agreeing with me (the part highlighted in bold). That is a fact that there is no mention of instruments.

I think a logical person would therefore assume that none of them used an instrument to worship God. The Word of God should say "they sang hymns and strummed the harp" if it was so.

Even though David was musical on the harp, and Jesus was likened to David, there is no record of Jesus ever touching a musical instrument.

You are adding to God's Word by assuming things that it doesn't say. That's a dangerous way to read the Bible.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is not a "simple fact!"

Our oneness is of the Spirit. It is not one ministry, one book, or one bible version that will make us all "one." LSM has proven that repeatedly -- we had all that, and they still found a way to cut off the Midwest LC's and Brazil. In the last go round, they cut off half SoCal, Europe, and Africa.

Do you really think that if all Christians used the same name for Satan, we would then all be one?

Perhaps you might want to reconsider the oneness of the Spirit based on the scripture. Pick any version you like.

You speak of oneness of the Spirit like an airy fairy concept. No practical examples to support it.

What does oneness of the Spirit look like according to your concept?

For a city of 100,000 people for example, it must look like churches of two or three (the base number of a church, according to many), or up to 33000 different denominations. What a wonderful picture and testimony of oneness.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

That is a fact that there is no mention of instruments.

I see you guys arguing about the use of instruments. Does the LC hold a certain view toward this? If so, can someone please clarify for me. Thank you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I see you guys arguing about the use of instruments. Does the LC hold a certain view toward this? If so, can someone please clarify for me. Thank you.

Musical instruments are helpful but not necessary. It does not matter what kind of instrument is used, but piano, guitar or both are favored. The main thing is that the music does not become the focus of the meeting, and some instruments such as drums are inappropriate for obvious reasons (I have yet to attend a wedding or funeral where drums are played - even the world knows what is and is not appropriate). That is in the meeting. Outside of the meeting, such as gospel preaching, or musical productions, full instrumentation is okay I think.

Some incorrectly allege that piano or guitar only is because of some superstition about the instruments themselves. This is not the case. The simple reason is that most people in the church can play at least piano or guitar well enough and these instruments especially the guitar or (electric) piano are easily transportable. Another reason is that they are full instruments in the sense that they can play chords and not just melody and so are better suited than drums which can only give a beat.

Another distinction is that in the local churches the music follows the singing. In denominations the congregation waits for the music to start and cannot start singing unless the music starts first with some kind of introduction. This makes the music the focus of the worship. In the local churches people can start singing anytime and the music will catch up. The music will speed up or slow down , loud or quiet in proportion to the singing.

In denominations the musical worship is often a choreographed performance. The Lord's Table is not the main focus but rather the worship and the music as part of a larger choreographed performance, to which the congregation (or more fittingly, audience) is expected to donate money as a kind of payment for the service (this practice goes back to the middle ages where for the first time, the "Christian tithe" was introduced as a way to support the Priest and upkeep of the buildings/cathedrals). In Europe, the cathedrals are still in a state of constant building and repair based on the tithes of the audience and the symbolic gesture that "God is always building his Church". In modern churches it is really no different, but instead of building a cathedral they are building a commercial empire and extending that empire through the idea of church plants and sub-churches.

Whether's it's a 200 year old pipe organ or a 5 pieces rock band, a church service without these things is not a church service in the minds of many...and "did you like the music?" or "the music was good/bad" is a frequent topic of conversation after the service, not Christ and how wonderful the Lord's Table was. In all of the denominations I have attended, a number of them always without fail have a music band and worship leaders, but only celebrate the Lord's table once a month. This proves where their focus is - not in meeting to remember the Lord, but to conduct a musical presentation to attract paying listeners. They can make do with having the Lord's table only once a month, but cannot survive if they have no music or donations/tithing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You speak of oneness of the Spirit like an airy fairy concept. No practical examples to support it.

What does oneness of the Spirit look like according to your concept?

Maybe similar to when local churchers "get life" when they do something? Like,"My subjectivity is okay; yours is not"?

Oneness in the LC is a moving target. Just when you think you have it they yank it further away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I see you guys arguing about the use of instruments. Does the LC hold a certain view toward this? If so, can someone please clarify for me. Thank you.

The use of musical instruments became highly controversial in the Midwest, and part of the reason why LSM excommunicated us (or should I say "them" since I left about this time.) The young people's gatherings in the Midwest (mainly Ohio) were worshiping God using contemporary Christian music for their regional events, and LSM got wind of this. Of course, W. Lee is on record condemning electric guitars.

In LSM's scheme of things, based on WL's opinions, a grand piano is "spiritual," but other instruments are "worldly." These views have nothing to do with scripture, but are more in line with cultural norms.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You speak of oneness of the Spirit like an airy fairy concept. No practical examples to support it.

What does oneness of the Spirit look like according to your concept?

For a city of 100,000 people for example, it must look like churches of two or three (the base number of a church, according to many), or up to 33000 different denominations. What a wonderful picture and testimony of oneness.

No. My view of oneness is spiritual.

And I gave you a few counter-examples of what oneness -- LSM style -- is not.

And 33,000 gatherings all reading Witness Lee HWFMR is much closer to communism or catholicism than it is to the real oneness of the Spirit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Thankyou for agreeing with me (the part highlighted in bold). That is a fact that there is no mention of instruments.

I think a logical person would therefore assume that none of them used an instrument to worship God. The Word of God should say "they sang hymns and strummed the harp" if it was so.

Even though David was musical on the harp, and Jesus was likened to David, there is no record of Jesus ever touching a musical instrument.

You are adding to God's Word by assuming things that it doesn't say. That's a dangerous way to read the Bible.

Have you now left the LC denomination and joined the Church of Christ denomination? Your views here match theirs.

And your way of reading the Bible by buying HWFMR books from LSM is better?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Well, yes and no.

If you went to a meeting at one of these churches the "flavor" would be nearly identical to a LC meeting. (except prob not as much direct quoting of Witness Lee) The lingo would be very similar. I understand that they have loosened up a bit on the music/singing side, but there are others here that could give you a much more comprehensive answer.

Ohio, why don't you take a shot at this one?
-

Of those formerly in the LCM:

There are churches in Ohio which still strongly adhere to LSM.

There are churches in Ohio which still strongly adhere to TC.

There are two churches (Grandview Christian and Cincinnati) which no longer adhere to either.

This is what happens everywhere LSM takes their divisive "oneness."

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

O
There are two churches (Grandview Christian and Cincinnati) which no longer adhere to either.

I'm curious, were these two properties formerly owned by the LSM?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Musical instruments are helpful but not necessary. ............

Thank you for that explaination. So in the LSM, instruments are limited to just guitars and pianos?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'm curious, were these two properties formerly owned by the LSM?

These are churches, not properties.

Not sure what you mean.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Thank you for that explaination. So in the LSM, instruments are limited to just guitars and pianos?

Hi Jo S,

In my experience, depending on the context and type of meeting, I have seen tambourines, cabasa, egg shakers, violins, viola, mandolin, ukulele (Brother Howard Higashi was known for this), and a flute (rare).

By and large it is as Evangelical describes. Even with the above the focus is not on the instrument but to facilitate and complement the singing.

There was a CD released by some young people in the 2001 (Summer School of Truth) that had a rendition of "God's Desire" and an impressive electric guitar riff that resembled Van Halen... the guitarist was really talented. But only as a CD and not in the meetings. This below would be more typical:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIOZb2kUMu4

or this sound...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGPDauehnG8



Drake

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

These are churches, not properties.

Not sure what you mean.

Ok so the individual congregations own and manage the actual real estate? There isn't some sort of trust within the LC?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ok so the individual congregations own and manage the actual real estate? There isn't some sort of trust within the LC?

All the LC's owned their meeting halls, except perhaps a couple new places.

When operatives from LSM came in with their quarantines ~ 10 years ago, they began working with dissidents in all the Midwest LC's who were favorable to them, and held training sessions to help them file lawsuits to take control of all church assets. It was bloody awful. Few would even consider LSM to be acting as Christians. Three cities became particularly vulnerable because one of their elders sided with LSM -- Mansfield and Columbus, OH and Toronto, Canada. Not only did they sue for buildings, chairs, and bank accounts, but also for their "name." That's right. The church with no name went to court to obtain their name. LSM was successful in Mansfield and Columbus, basically because the brothers had no desire to fight their brothers and make the lawyers rich.

Not long afterwards many of the Midwest LC's that resisted LSM takeovers, also became distant from the regional headquarters in Cleveland.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Thank you for that explaination. So in the LSM, instruments are limited to just guitars and pianos?

Often for practical reasons as I described, they are the most common I think. In Asia, I don't know, they might use more native instruments. I think in the Baltics they might even use violin. So culture is a determining factor. Music is enjoyed and is helpful, but not required. If the piano player is sick or comes late, everyone will just sing without instruments. If they forget or don't know the tune, they will sit it out. There is no dedicated music band that assembles every Sunday for the meetings. However people may assemble outside of the meeting to make music or record a CD etc, in which case any sort of instrument could be used. More sophisticated instruments may be used for production of CDs or gospel outreach.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

There was a CD released by some young people in the 2001 (Summer School of Truth) that had a rendition of "God's Desire" and an impressive electric guitar riff that resembled Van Halen... the guitarist was really talented. But only as a CD and not in the meetings.

Drake

Oh the hypocrisy, Drake.

Ohio SSOT gatherings use an electric guitar and it prompts a quarantine.

But it's OK for LSM because "the guitarist was really talented."

Tell that to brother zeek.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No. My view of oneness is spiritual.

And I gave you a few counter-examples of what oneness -- LSM style -- is not.

And 33,000 gatherings all reading Witness Lee HWFMR is much closer to communism or catholicism than it is to the real oneness of the Spirit.

To me, denominational oneness is like attending a family gathering where you're forced to play nice with uncles and 5th cousins you haven't seen for 20 years and everyone remembers in the back of their mind the one big argument of past history that caused the family to decide never to meet regularly again (like the Reformation).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Oh the hypocrisy, Drake.

Ohio SSOT gatherings use an electric guitar and it prompts a quarantine.

But it's OK for LSM because "the guitarist was really talented."

Tell that to brother zeek.

Maybe it wasn't the guitar, but how he was playing it. Maybe playing the devil's riff at full gain.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Oh the hypocrisy, Drake.

Ohio SSOT gatherings use an electric guitar and it prompts a quarantine.

But it's OK for LSM because "the guitarist was really talented."

Tell that to brother zeek.

Oh stop.

I was just giving my assessment of a brothers pkaying on a CD.

Such melodrama.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ok so the individual congregations own and manage the actual real estate? There isn't some sort of trust within the LC?

As far as I can tell it depends on the locality. But the 501c3 church in XYZ city (the organization, not the church, because the church has no name, because if they did have a name they'd be a denomination) owns most of the properties, they funnel cash to the LSM, but hold assets under their own tax id. There could be a trust of some sort, and it's my understanding that LSM has also sent their lawyers to sue for real estate assets (but I can't speak to that or confirm it to be true).

So if what Ohio says is accurate, a 501c3 "Church in Cincinnati" held assets and once was a part of the LSM - bought into their rules, sold their books, funneled cash to their "ministry", did the whole song and dance, but they held assets in their name. So when they decided to break away from the chains of the LSM, they keep their assets.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Oh stop.

I was just giving my assessment of a brothers pkaying on a CD.

Such melodrama.

So ... I guess you were on a 3 year cruise while the Midwest LC's endured LSM's political and legal hacks dividing every church.

Sorry, Drake, but you have zero credibility concerning all the unrighteousness and corruption at LSM.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

As far as I can tell it depends on the locality. But the 501c3 church in XYZ city (the organization, not the church, because the church has no name, because if they did have a name they'd be a denomination) owns most of the properties, they funnel cash to the LSM, but hold assets under their own tax id. There could be a trust of some sort, and it's my understanding that LSM has also sent their lawyers to sue for real estate assets (but I can't speak to that or confirm it to be true).

So if what Ohio says is accurate, a 501c3 "Church in Cincinnati" held assets and once was a part of the LSM - bought into their rules, sold their books, funneled cash to their "ministry", did the whole song and dance, but they held assets in their name. So when they decided to break away from the chains of the LSM, they keep their assets.

I doubt that LSM owns anything in the Midwest. Perhaps Chicago's huge hall expansion, but nothing else.

When I say that LSM legal operatives came to town to divide LC's, they were working with locals to file lawsuits to seize property for new LC's favorable to LSM.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

So ... I guess you were on a 3 year cruise while the Midwest LC's endured LSM's political and legal hacks dividing every church.

Sorry, Drake, but you have zero credibility concerning all the unrighteousness and corruption at LSM.

This will probably come as a surprise to you ....but why would I care what a button pusher and cyber bully thinks... at all?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Drake

...but why would I care what a button pusher and cyber bully thinks... at all?

Ad-homs. Ohio wins by default.


Just trying to break up the tension here...

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ad-homs. Ohio wins by default.


Just trying to break up the tension here...

Np Jo S. Appreciate the effort.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

To me, denominational oneness is like attending a family gathering where you're forced to play nice with uncles and 5th cousins you haven't seen for 20 years and everyone remembers in the back of their mind the one big argument of past history that caused the family to decide never to meet regularly again (like the Reformation).

You are still trying to convince yourself how bad it is "out there," but no one else believes what you say.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ad-homs. Ohio wins by default.


Just trying to break up the tension here...

Funny! And ironic coming from the boy who cries "ad-homs"