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Apologetic discussions Apologetic Discussions Regarding the Teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee |
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06-19-2014, 06:39 AM | #1 |
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The Asian Mind/The Western Mind
I'm not sure where to post these thoughts, so I'll put them here. Admin can move them if needed. This largely is in response to amrkelly's point about Asian subterfuge (relating to Dana Roberts going to the PRC to investigate WN), how the Chinese will nod and smile and feed you a load of baloney.
So I wanted to relate an experience that I had that gave me some insight to the Asian culture. I trained in martial arts for years, and once I was doing tai chi in a small room with a bunch of Chinese. We all were moving together through the forms, and if you made a bad move you would bump into the other person. You would violate their space. If you can imagine a flock of birds flying together, and each bird has to watch out for the one in front and on the side. Each bird instinctively processes all that to keep in the space allotted, even though that space is changing, because the flock is moving. Or think of a school of fish swimming together; you get my point, I hope. At that time I really saw something of the Asian preference for "order". If everybody is free to move about in an unconstrained way, then they will bump into each other. This is completely different from my upbringing. I grew up in the Western U.S. where there are wide open spaces and everybody has to be independent. You have to figure it out, and do it. You are not flying in a flock, but solo. The rugged individual is sort of the cultural model. So Nee's model, and Lee's model, is a kind of Asian-leaning model, "that we would all have the same mind, and speak the same thing." The proper, orderly, harmonized church life is the conceptual vehicle that guides everything. So "Witness Lee is always right, even when he's wrong" is not so much a self-aggrandizement (though he bought into it, to some degree) but rather a central organizing principle for an orderly functioning religious body. The Big Boss speaks and we all say "Amen". So if WL says that Solomon with all his foreign wives is a type of Christ and his bride, we say "Amen". Then, if in the next breath WL says that David is not a type of Christ because he was a sinner (he numbered Israel in his pride, he dallied with Bathsheba, had Uriah the Hittite killed, he -"gasp"- threw a stone at Goliath instead of forgiving him!) we still say "Amen". Because good order in the church requires us to say "Amen" whenever WL speaks. So all of this is perfectly reasonable, even essential, in the Asian-created mind. So the "truth", or reality, of "good order in the church" is greater than the requirement for consistency when interpreting the Bible, for example. But in my rugged individualistic "cowboy" mind, I see the verse that says, "As the wind blows where it will, and you hear the sound of it, but nobody knows where it comes from and where it goes, so is it with everyone who's born of the Spirit." So I see the "freedom of the Spirit" calling me. I don't want to wait for Headquarters to tell me how to function. In fact, I get a resentment when HQ shows up and tells me who are my "vital group" members. And I want to be free to see what I see when I read the Bible. I want to use my reason, and function in my inspired spirit. I read the Bible and see Philip going down the south road out of Jerusalem, and running up to a chariot. Then afterward the newly saved Ethiopian went down to his home country, and Philip never told him to report to HQ for vital group assignment or full-time training. And 2,000 years later Ethiopia is still a christian nation! Who told Philip to go down to the south road? An angel! Who told him to run up to the chariot? The Holy Spirit! Deal with it. That is how God moves. Actually, the "rugged individual" and the "harmonious coordination" aren't necessarily contradictions. They are just cultural predispositions. And I have to get over mine, and try to understand the other. Which is what I am doing here, typing this. My point is that perhaps WL wasn't necessarily a snake oil salesman, as much as he was trying to fulfill his "church" mandate. The Living Stream Ministry, the full-time training, all of that came out of the requirements for the collective. WL's cultural predisposition wasn't the individual looking for the Spirit to guide him home. Instead his primary "vision" was the collective, and so he worked for the collective, and was willing to lie, to cover-up, to manipulate people, and to lift himself above the flock. Because he felt that was what the collective needed to go forward. All this was required for "good order in the church." So that was where the Deputy God teaching came from, and the idea of unquestioning obedience to the one in front of you. To me this is the Hive Mind, and it has produced a lot of crazy stuff over the years, not limited to the Local Churches of Lee. I remember reading one testimony of a "rebellion", where the LSM representative angrily told the questioning Local Church elder, "We do what we are told." To some degree this is effective, but eventually it totally quenches the Spirit. But on the other hand my cultural mindset can fixate on "freedom" and end up being wild, uncoordinated, and not caring for anyone else. Then I'm useless to God. So I'm not saying that my cultural metaphor is superior, just trying to understand how others think. Does anyone else have any insight to the "Asian mind", as I've tried to relate to it?
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06-19-2014, 10:31 AM | #2 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
When making generalizations about the "Asian mind' how do we avoid ethnic stereotypes rather than realistic and authentic depictions of actual cultures, customs and behaviors?
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06-19-2014, 10:45 AM | #3 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
We could do a survey. Go to China and randomly ask people, "Do you value order or freedom more?" Then go to Butte Montana and Boise Idaho and rural hamlets of Colorado. Ask the same question. Then you will have a quantification of cultural values.
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06-19-2014, 11:00 AM | #4 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Good observation, Aron.
I'm neither Western nor Asian but I live in a Chinese community. I like these people. Though I believe I'll be always an outsider for them. Anyway, in three words, I'd describe the Chinese mentality as: 1) Subordination; 2) Collectiveness; 3) “Us” versus “Them” mentality. (Well, that is slightly more than one word ) Generally, the Chinese are also lack of creativity and tend to imitate or copy someone else's models and patterns. BTW, can you guess whose quote is this: "The individual is subordinate to the organisation. The minority is subordinate to the majority. The lower level is subordinate to the higher level"... That was Mao Tse-tung's quote but it pretty much sums up the LC's value system.
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06-19-2014, 11:00 AM | #5 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Maybe somebody has done research already that provide us guidance lest we simply confirm our prejudices to ourselves. Or is there some value in comparing and contrasting prejudices in a discussion such as is possible here? Or rather I should say that is what I would like to avoid if possible.
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06-19-2014, 11:09 AM | #6 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-19-2014, 11:19 AM | #7 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Personally, I wonder if Nee's development of deputy/delegated authority comes from him growing up in his culture and heritage ... that he superimposed upon the Bible ... and then impressed upon those in his movement.
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06-19-2014, 11:22 AM | #8 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I put a meter on Chinese creativity but the original products and new technologies that the whole world buys from China. What are they?..
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06-19-2014, 11:25 AM | #9 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-19-2014, 12:01 PM | #10 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But I was shaped by it, and have views based upon it ... that certainly doesn't speak for all Chinese.
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06-19-2014, 12:10 PM | #11 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Even the British mindset, with centuries of the ruling monarchy, differs from the pioneering mindset of the US.
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06-19-2014, 12:13 PM | #12 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Nor was I, nor any of us. But it does show how Titus Chu could stand in front of WL in public and declare how "ashamed" he was that Cleveland was not fully implemented in the new way. It does show how the majority could sit there and think, "Oh, this is good. This is a well-regulated church life." In another society that might be a sign of despotism.
People do polls all the time. It's not some secret science. What does the population think about this value, versus that value? Then they know what to title the next Hollywood movie or fragrance or utility vehicle. Generalizations are merely generalizations. I am not afraid to make them. I don't pretend they are some absolute truth for all people at all times. If anyone is offended by my making a generalization, well I will go look at the poll numbers and see if I can back it up.
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06-19-2014, 06:19 PM | #13 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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From American Sociological Review, 2000. Turns out Asians are much more rational... "I do this because it's the best thing to do" versus Americans who are more traditional... "I do this because my daddy did it." But Asians are more oriented toward social coherence and conformity... "I do this because that's what the group wants me to do" versus Americans who are more independent... "I do this because I want to do it." Zeek is right, though: I should have titled this thread something less inflammatory and provocative, like "Shared cultural norms and values: East vs West"
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06-19-2014, 07:48 PM | #14 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I've been tooting this horn about the dichotomy between Eastern and Western cultures being at the root of the problems in the Recovery for years. Waking up to the realization that I had grown up in, and given my life to propagate, an incognito Chinese church was deeply disturbing, but the conviction only gets clearer as the years go by.
I stumbled in here today by chance. Wasn't even aware this forum existed. Reading this thread almost gave me goosebumps, to finally hear some traction for this understanding. In a discussion that I didn't personally initiate, no less. Actually, most of what I've had are monologues, not discussions. Nice to see that someone else can connect the dots. Once you see this dichotomy clearly, I believe you'll recognize that nearly every gripe from disgruntled ex-members or frustrated current members has its roots in Asian cultural values that got institutionalized so deeply into the practices of the Local Churches that they create an atmosphere of expectations so rigid they are just as effective at enforcing conformity as posting a bouncer at the door, or a requiring a profession of doctrinal faith that one must sign in order to be fully received into the circle of fellowship. Some of the Asian cultural elements relate to standards of conduct that are pushed as if essential to the Christian life. Others elements are Eastern cultural values that make their way into doctrinal stances on minor truths, and then get stressed like major ones. The manifestations are numerous, but the root is the same. We (they) failed to distinguish between Lee's culture and his portion of Christ. On the one hand, I believe this is the glaringly obvious "elephant in the room" that even the current leaders in the Recovery acknowledge has been wreaking havoc and hemorrhaging the life-blood of what, by all rights, should be a thriving organism. Whether they see the elephant for what it truly is or not is not for me to say, but I've been encouraged just to hear they acknowledge the problems it causes for them. And that encouragement is not rooted in cynicism toward them. On the other hand, though, there is a reason why so many members can't see the elephant, and why the leaders (in my view) should be given some slack for failing to evict it. I bumped into it daily, got trampled by it with bothersome frequency, and wrestled with it on and off for over a decade before all the loose threads of my chronic frustrations got tied together by the common thread of Asian culture, at which point the resultant tapestry finally came together. It was a relief in the small sense that the puzzle finally got solved and yielded a coherent picture. But it was devastating at the same time -- my faith got rocked and my Christian life got shipwrecked by the disappointment. Blindness is not always willful, and the more painful the picture, the more innate subconscious defense mechanisms there are to prevent you from seeing it. Plus, it's a complex picture, not a simple line-drawing. I blame no one for not being able to connect the dots without help. It took me about 30 pages even just to put my thoughts on the topic together when a brother asked me to connect the dots for him by giving detailed explanations rather than generalizations. It's like walking someone through calculus, when you can jump 5 steps at a time, but they need each little one spelled out for them separately in order to see the connections at first. I'll probably share pieces of that effort here as the discussion progresses, but I'm leery of becoming one more disgruntled bozo with an angry manifesto. (Sorry if that that offends anyone here; I trust most of you here, like me, have been there for a time, even if you've moved past that phase.) For the record: I have no interest in WL, LC, or BB bashing. I bless the Lord for the privilege of growing up and giving my best years whole-heartedly to be receive what these people gained of Christ, and serve together with them. Some of you here, I feel, have some issues with bitterness that you would do well to seek help dealing with. God forbid that He eventually has to judge you with the same strictness and enthusiasm with which some of you here are casting stones. I have no interest in participating in that or providing ammunition for those who are just looking for rocks to throw rather than to build something with. If there have been moral or ethical wrongdoings that set some of you off, I can't speak to that, as I never noticed such things in greater frequency or severity than are common to any institution, sacred or secular. I'm just talking about the personal offenses and reactionary cynicism that rise up when a person finds out they don't fit in to something they had hoped to be a part of at some point. I still struggle with disappointment that there seems to be no place for me among what those dear folks are doing. But I'm dealing with it, and staying positive is part of how that is best done. |
06-20-2014, 03:06 AM | #15 | ||||||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
OK, I'm registered now. Post #14 is mine. Upon re-reading it I wish I could go back and edit some things. Sounds arrogant the way that came out. I'll dodge the light and claim I wasn't my usual charming self only due to lack of sleep.
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Sorry. Maybe I just need to get some more sleep again. I know I'm new here so I hope I'm not crossing the line. |
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06-20-2014, 06:18 AM | #16 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So to be exposed to the Local Church "oneness" culture with its integrated service, and fellowships, was very attractive. There were many opportunities to get involved, as well, and not "pew sitting." And I found the approach to the Bible very rational, which had an appeal. In the community churches there were pastors who didn't have formal training, but they spoke on Sunday morning because they were the one reading the Bible on Monday through Saturday! They didn't know much but they knew more than the rest. But often they didn't bring much depth of insight to the Word. Contrast that to my first exposure to the Local Church meetings, where the rank-and-file could stand up and go into details on the nuances of the Word like few pastors I had heard. I liked it and jumped in. But over time I saw the fellowships go from being "local" to being franchises of Living Stream Ministry. Every time the Big Brothers from HQ showed up everybody got real stiff, and afraid to go off script. And the terminology was off-putting... "the new way"..."vital groups"... does anyone remember the "youth propagation groups"? That one really rolled off the tongue! Eventually, as well, as I got some experience in the Word, I got kind of resentful that my own insights only had so much value as I could square them with the LSM version. Otherwise I should keep my thoughts to myself. So I went back to the Podunk Community Church. I still told everyone there about "God's economy", but at least I could re-arrange it in my own language without the thought police pulling me back into line. And eventually, looking back, I realized that while WL had some insight, he didn't have the last word on Bible understanding. In an organizational system that required him to have the final word he was forced into a position that nobody but God alone should be in. And as I tried to allude to in my opening post, I eventually realized that there was a big cultural element behind this. Quote:
And I now, outside the system, I also have freedom to point out inconsistencies in WL's expositions. David was too rough on people in the Psalms, said WL. He was supposed to bless his enemies. Yet elsewhere in the OT narrative they were hacking one another to bits with swords and burning cities. Of course my expositions are often inconsistent, also. But I am not in a system in which one person (me, naturally) has to be unquestioned as "God's current oracle". If you require this kind of arrangement for social coherence and your "oracle" is not named Jesus Christ you are probably headed for trouble. WL was indeed logical, and that is attractive, as I am logical too. I like to think, and to solve puzzles, not the least of which is how do I follow the Spirit home to my Father in heaven. I found that in the Local Churches I didn't have much freedom to think, or speak, so I left. And my point of starting this thread was that this lack of individual freedom, as I experienced it, wasn't perhaps due to the fact that Nee & Lee were power-hungry usurpers of God's throne as much as they were from a cultural mind-set that put great emphasis on the collective, and on social coherence and conformity. And they brought that mind-set to the Bible and created an interpretive template that stressed some things and ignored others. Now, we all do this, to some degree, which is why I mention my own history. But Lee, in presuming to have gone beyond culture, missed its effect and was unable to mitigate it. Eventually what we all assumed didn't exist actually dominated the scene. It was your proverbial "elephant in the room." I will let you have the last word, and again thanks for posting.
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06-20-2014, 06:36 AM | #17 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Your insights and attitude are much appreciated here. As a typical Westerner, as if growing up in the west side of Cleveland, Ohio qualifies me of that, I have often thought that we were fooled into thinking that Lee's Chinese culture was "spiritual" just because it was foreign to our own. Admittedly being active in the Titus Chu-led LC's was a kind of Lee-Lite experience, while at the same time introducing a new set of dynamics. It has always amazed me that the justification for regular leadership "dress-downs" by both Lee and Chu were sourced in a missionary sister from England. Supposedly M. E. Barber's brutal rebukes of Watchman Nee, which reportedly "perfected" him, gave all subsequent leaders the privilege to repeat such a shameful practice with others. For a collection of brothers, so "faithful" to the pure word of God, it is quite surprising since the New Testament provides not even a single verse fragment warranting such a leadership style. How do we attribute this ongoing practice to a sister, and without any scriptural support, if Chinese culture is ruled out?
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06-20-2014, 06:43 AM | #18 | |
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Those "propagation groups" took on life like a government program. We had campus PG's, family PG's, work PG's, etc. Eventually some brainchild developed IPG's -- Individual Propagation Groups -- which takes us back to the other LC maxim -- "even when he's wrong, he's right!"
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06-20-2014, 06:56 AM | #19 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I think Jesus mentioned something about building shrines to martyred prophets. Quite similar. We eulogize stuff we'd never allow today. Welcome to planet earth.
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06-20-2014, 07:31 AM | #20 | |
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It took quite a while to finally realize that the continual public shamings of other leaders had little to do with actual "perfecting" and had everything to do with the establishment and maintenance of the power base. The basis for this had much to do with Chinese cultural norms, both within the leader and the followers, which explains why the demographic "color" of the LC's in the US slowly "transformed" from white to yellow. I may be "seeing" Lee through the person of Chu, but from all accounts, the picture is accurate. Not just was power-grabbing a primary motivation, but going further, LC leaders demanded a glory -- a vain-glory (see John 5.43-44) -- that rightfully belonged only to the Son of God, the Man Christ Jesus. The result was a collection of man-pleasers, deteriorating over time with each successive expulsion (i.e. quarantine) of those who refused to pay homage.
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06-20-2014, 07:36 AM | #21 | |
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And lest you forget another sister ... Madame Jeanne Guyon, the 17th century MOTA ...
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06-20-2014, 07:54 AM | #22 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Thanks for your insightful post. Don't know how old you are, but many (most) of the frequent posters here are "middle aged" refugees who were in "the glorious churchlife" back in the 1970s. Some of us left the Local Church 20 years ago or even more. Some just recently. We do have a few scattered current LC members. Anyway, much of the "perspective" you see in the postings here come from us surly old curmudgeons. Most of us are very much aware of our rock-throwing tendencies, and we try to stay on the positive side, but much of the time our willing spirit is overcome by our old, weak flesh. Many of us are living proof that calling on the Lord, pray-reading and going to 5 or 6 meetings a week do not a transformed person make. So when you catch us picking up stones, just do what the Lord Jesus did when those people were going to stone the adulteress and say "Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone" and we'll probably put our tail between our legs and walk away. Seriously, this forum is in need of some new blood and some fresh air - from BOTH sides of the fence. I have been trying my best to see how we can further promote this forum and maybe you can help us. Your brother who is unto Him.
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06-20-2014, 09:15 AM | #23 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But I don't know that for sure either. Cuz I was bucking the Lee/apostle/oracle "Flow of Oneness" push. So maybe stones were flying both ways, it could be claimed, by the leaders. It was at that time I woke up, and realized I was in a cult. So is it throwing stones to tell everyone the local church is a cult? Let's face it, we'll never be able to determine with any degree of certainty, how much Chinese culture influenced Nee and Lee's theology and hermeneutics. We can say that "Authority and Submission," with its deputy/delegated authority, and their insistence on "Hand-over," "follow the one in front of you, and the leader," certainly appear to be very totalitarian in nature. Did it come out of Chinese culture/history? Does it matter where it came from? That's what makes the local church a cult. And that's not a stone. That's a boulder ... for all in the Recovery.
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06-20-2014, 11:51 AM | #24 | |
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I hope that you'll eventually take the time to spell out your thoughts. Unfortunately I'm not a very systematic thinker, and probably the readers would benefit if someone out there is able to state an argument coherently. If you can actually present a "detailed explanation" I imagine that it might be very helpful. I sort of have a habit of meandering, and at the end I hope that my point has been made somewhere in the text.
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06-20-2014, 12:04 PM | #25 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Of course the state has been encroaching steadily but it is telling that no politician could make that kind of statement in the U.S. today but they can, and have, in China. That's exactly what I was alluding to in starting this thread. If you look back at the Local Church established in the U.S. by Witness Lee as a product of someone who came from a society where a Mao Tse Tung could make that statement, then what we experienced there suddenly doesn't seem so weird after all. It almost makes perfect sense. "The individual is subordinate to the collective" in spiritual terms became morphed into "Christ and the church" which of course is directed by Christ's bondslave Witness Lee who just happens to have the ministry of the age. So if you don't subordinate yourself utterly (being "one") to the ministry of the age, which is actually fronted by a book publishing house (and now a multimedia company) then you are not cooperating with God on the earth today. The collective thus becomes the lens through which reality itself is perceived. God is pushed off, somewhere beyond the collective, waiting for us to approach Him through the "church life".
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06-21-2014, 09:59 AM | #26 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Mao Tse-tung was a self-described Marxist-Leninist. The principles of the collective that he refers to, he got from them. Marx and Lenin were Europeans. So, in what sense are these ideas "Asian"? Also, isn't subordinating oneself to a collective the opposite of subordinating oneself to one man like the MOTA?
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06-21-2014, 10:18 AM | #27 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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These formulas work fine for the CPC and the LRC: Mao = Communist party of China (CPC) Communist Party of China (CPC) = Mao WL = LRC LRC = WL If you don't subordinate yourself to Mao (WL), that means you don't subordinate yourself to the Communist Party of China (LRC). BTW, in the USSR, they used a similar formula for one of the Party slogans: “We say 'Lenin' and mean the Party. We say 'the Party' and mean Lenin.” All sects, cults, and totalitarian regimes have similar characteristics. They just need a breeding ground.
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06-21-2014, 10:43 AM | #28 | |
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And like the CPC, in the LRC your are OUTTA THERE ... ELIMINATED.
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06-21-2014, 01:49 PM | #29 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I did find some support for the OP thesis in this article, http://www.develop-top-talent.com/ta...or-styles-asia that states "This research showed that cultural difference do indeed show up in self-expressed behavioral preferences by leaders. However, within each culture there is still room for a diversity of styles and approaches even where one or a cluster of styles is preferred more often than others." But, whether a leadership style is a matter of cultural difference or individual difference is going to be a judgment call in every case, isn't it? |
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06-21-2014, 07:49 PM | #30 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Another hypothesis I have is that the LRC culture of submission was created in an environment where a leadership claims to have special revelation of the bible that no other Christians have. Under such an environment followers would gravitate towards trusting and blindly submitting to and following their leaders because no longer is Jesus to source of divine revelation, but their leader is. Their identity is no longer in Christ, but it's wrapped up in the revelator. That's why those in the LRC become so offended when Witness Lee is criticized, because their identity is wrapped up in him. An attack on Lee would subconsciously be viewed as an attack on themselves.
Jehovah's Witness, a sect which now claims over 8 million members developed in the United States and have something similar going on. They believe that only their leaders are qualified to interpret the bible for them and that every other Christian outside of their sect is misled. It's even more taboo than in the LRC to question authority. But then again they are considered by most to be a cult... Here's a video of Francis Chan's conversation with a JW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcFMGKLTI5k The JW tells this pastor "Your problem is that you read the bible by yourself. You need our leaders to interpret it for you." This is a similar mindset I've heard from ex-JW I've met online who all say they lived in an environment where no one could ever question the elders or the Watchtower's teachings, but they were pretty much expected to blindly follow.
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06-21-2014, 09:33 PM | #31 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So, I've been reading and writing on these forums for over 10 years now, and how is it that bearbear is able to say in just a dozen or so words what I've trying to say for 10 years and probably over 100,000 words? It's just not fair I tell you, it's just not fair! Ok, Ok, it's fair... but only because God is making it fair. Otherwise... Seriously though, "no longer is Jesus the source of divine revelation". Can we just stop right there my friends? Any church, group of churches or association of churches, or any ministry, or any man that has lost "Jesus as the source of divine revelation" is not worthy of our slightest attention, much less giving our hearts and souls to. Nuff said?
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06-22-2014, 03:12 AM | #32 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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The US never knew dictatorship. America was born as a republic, while China has always been a monarchy or an authoritarian regime. Puyi, the last Chinese emperor, reigned until 1917, while the US never had their own monarchy. American saints bought a pig in a poke, i.e. they didn't know what they bought with the LRC. To put it tentatively, firstly, they were told that the Lord loved them and they had to love the Lord. Then they were told that if they wanted to love the Lord, they also needed to love His church. And next step was a substitution, when they were told that if they wanted to love the Lord and His church, they also had to be submissive to WL because he was the MOTA, his vision was God's vision, and the LRC was the only genuine Christian church. By that time, the saints had been brainwashed well enough not to get off the hook. WL just "helped" American saints to substitute their values for his values.
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06-22-2014, 04:03 AM | #33 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I just came back from the Lord's Table where they had a long "sermon", full of cliches: "exercise your spirit", "grow in life", "grow in the Church" (or in the church life - I didn't bother to listen), etc. That's just a lot of hot air, but the saints are confident that it is the Lord who speaks to them through the brothers. They believe their church is unique because it's only in the LRC where God is still speaking to His "chosen people". (BTW, which commandment is easier to fulfill: "exercise your spirit", "grow in the church" or "love thy neighbor as thyself"? I don't remember if I've ever heard the last phrase in the LRC). Saints can't notice that they substituted the word of God (the Holy Bible) and their own word to God (their prayer) for someone else's talk about God. They take the life with man's interpretation of God for the life in and with God.
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06-22-2014, 02:55 PM | #34 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So Untohim you asked, and there wasn't "Nuff said."
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06-22-2014, 08:09 PM | #35 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Awareness, my problem is that I don't know how to explain my wife that "Their identity is not longer in Christ, but it's wrapped up in the revelator". It is a conclusion, not a solution. I know that the phrase is true. Most of the posters know that, too. It's obvious for you and me but not for everyone. Solution is how to make that statement true for others. And I don't know how. The members of the LRC look at their identity from another angle. For them, it's all Christ, from Christ, and about Christ.
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06-22-2014, 09:06 PM | #36 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
InChristAlone,
Harold's right, your post was right up there, and actually there is never "Nuff said" around this place...or why keep this little forum going? Another golden nugget. Bless you my friend. And may God and his Word comfort and strengthen you. Rest assured there are a number of brothers and sisters in your situation that are hanging around this place. And that's one of the biggest reasons that this forum has some value.
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06-22-2014, 09:57 PM | #37 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Reading this gave me goosebumps. In the past, multiple 'new ones' have told me that the Local Church reminds them of communist dictatorship. These are people who know NOTHING about the LC. They visit for the first time, and this was their impression. Scary huh?
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06-23-2014, 01:25 AM | #38 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-23-2014, 04:24 AM | #39 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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In my opinion, political system is a reflection of people's mindset. If people tend to be submissive and lacking initiative, with the need of a strong head to organize them, they will always end up with the leader and political system that represent their character best. We can also see the same mind-set in Asian business. Paternalistic leadership is the prevalent leadership style in Chinese and Japanese business organizations. And again -- this business style is just a reflection of the Asian mind-set. I never said that WL was pedaling the "Asian mind-set". He was pedaling his doctrines. But as a Chinese man, I believe he had the Asian mind-set. His paternalism (in the bad sense of the word) towards saints manifested itself in the way how he treated them. And he treated them as if they were foolish children who were not equal to him. (Well, any dictator or cult leader has a similar leadership style, so we can't blame only the Asian mindset). Why did Americans buy WL's mindset? If my previous post did not sound true to you, then I don't have the answer. I believe the saints didn't even notice how the change happened in their minds. One day they just became a part of the system. "When in Rome do as the Romans do". And they did. Anyway, I don’t want to say that I know everything about the Asian mind-set or that I understand why American saints bought WL’s mind-set. I just share my viewpoint which can be mistaken.
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06-23-2014, 04:35 AM | #40 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Awareness, UntoHim, thank you brothers. It's really tough and frustrating for me when I am trying to talk to my wife. My talks seem to be useless, but I still hope that God helps me to plant some seeds. Anyway, I thank God for everything. My experience helped me realize that if I can't change my wife, I'd better start changing myself.
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As an ordinary Soviet schoolboy, I was a member of a few Communist organizations of schoolchildren. That was mandatory. In a way, it was fun, like the Scouts. But there were always sessions of brainwashing when our elder comrades told us fairy tales about how the US wanted to destroy the world and how the USSR was struggling consistently for universal peace. And we believed all that crap because there was no other information. We lived in, with, and by the myth. We were sure that the USSR was struggling for peace. And we had no idea that our country was sponsoring dictatorial regimes, with hope for communism to conquer the whole world one day. We didn’t know that “good grandfather Lenin” was not “the most kind man” but an arrogant and narrow-minded executioner. Of course, he didn’t murder people personally, with his own hands, but he made orders. However, for us Soviet kids, he was a holy man. That was the only Lenin we knew. There was no alternative reality. Any word against the Party, her leaders or politics could make you a pariah, social outcast. Thank God, the last 10 years of the USSR were quite liberal. In Stalin's time, any critical remark could cost man his life or 10 years in a labor camp. However, control, manipulation, and lack of freedom of speech were always there. But we didn’t feel that. It was a part of the system. And it was a part of us. We were like a man who were born with chains around his legs but never noticed the chains because he didn't know the difference. He got used to his chains so much that he didn’t imagine a life without them. Moreover, he had fear to fall if he loses his chains. And we were like that. We wore chains but we thought we were free. We blindly followed instructions of our elder comrades and never questioned a thing. To question the ideology meant to lose your identity. From a good Soviet man, you turn yourself into a capitalist henchman, traitor, and servant of your Motherland’s enemy. BTW, not many people know that the USSR was not a communist state. The ideology was communist but the USSR was a socialist state, ruled by the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. Lenin wanted to build a communist state but 75 years later the experiment failed. Well, it’s a different topic and a long talk. So I'd better to stop here. Anyway, I don’t want to say that everything in the USSR was bad. Not at all. I had a great childhood. But since the system was based on half-truth, lies, and constraint, it had only two ways: to reform itself or collapse. The reforms didn’t work out and the system didn’t survive in the real world. When the control weakened, the myth died, the truth came out and everything started to collapse like a house of cards. Will the LRC collapse like the USSR? I doubt it. The control, lack of information, and lack of freedom of speech are still there. But it’s a good thing that we have a forum like this where everyone is free to discuss his or her opinion.
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06-23-2014, 05:52 AM | #41 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So what kind of group can fixate on "exercise your spirit" and ignore verses like "they told me to remember the poor, which I was eager to do" (Gal. 2:10)? They say that they are "closely following the apostle (Paul) yet they ignore Paul's words that are not convenient to their philosophy. The greatest commandment, given by Jesus, to love one another is nothing compared to building up the organization. This probably shows that the "oracle" has supplanted God's word. If the Maximum Leader says that a scripture is 'natural' or 'fallen', then they ignore it. And other concepts derived from the Word become the new "speaking from God." And thus you have the plain words of the scripture being ignored or even spoken against, while the "interpreted word" reigns supreme.
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06-23-2014, 06:04 AM | #42 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Now, having said that, the new poster caveman brought up a very good point. He said that the problems in the LRC are not any worse than anywhere else. Their hidden scandals are pale compared to the scandals in the RCC and many denominations. And who are we? What throne do I sit upon, to render judgment? NO. But at the same time we should admit our imperfections, and resist a system which pretends to be perfect. In such a system the Maximum Leader is not allowed to make any mistakes, because he/she is the current "oracle from God", and God does not make mistakes. That kind of a system will not allow change but it will be rigid and inflexible and will eventually collapse. That system is built on a foundation of lies. No one is truly "good" except God. Even Jesus said this, while he was in the flesh. (Mark 10:18) The only truth is to love one another, forgive one another, encourage one another, comfort one another. The rest of it we should be willing to be flexible and work out together, as those who have believed into the Lord Jesus Christ, and are trying to return home to the Father, and not alone but together.
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06-23-2014, 06:36 AM | #43 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So you had firm direction, which is good. We were "wild Americans" with few boundaries and we suffered in a wild system. WL offered us a very controlled environment. The truth was clear. No more gray areas. Secondly, we had "home". We were "home in the church". Our feeling of alienation disappeared. We had a place to go. We had purpose. Our job on earth was "to build up the church". Thirdly, we were offered a charismatic experience, which touched us at a deep level. Many of us cried when we "touched our spirit" in the church. The Bible was no longer a book of black and white "dead letters" but now was living and operating within us. So we really felt alive. I tried to start this thread with the idea of having a balanced and objective look at the LRC experience. I was encouraged that caveman (and others) have related to the idea. But it is not an easy one to work through. When we become simple we risk being simplistic. That is why it is good to have others consider our ideas. So I will try to be simple and clear, with the warning that I may be too simplistic. I think WN started his indigenous Chinese church at least partly as a reaction to Western "imperialistic" domination of Asia. Remember that the Boxer Rebellion was happening also. The Russo-Japanese War, etc. WN was not operating in a social vacuum. Far from it: one of the main reasons for the successful Little Flock expansion was it offered an alternative to the largely Protestant missions that were operating. I believe both WN and WL came out of the Protestant denominations. So the Little Flock was a local, indigenous, "biblical" alternative to the Western "Reformed" tradition. But with its success WN found the same problems as the earlier churches. How to organize, how to coordinate, how to maintain growth. And the Asian mind-set really emerges there. If you read WN's organizational works after WWII it's pretty clear. The "Spiritual Man" has receded and the "Organizational Man" is now at the fore-front. And it is the Asian Organizational Man that we see. One that emerges from an oriental culture. Again, there is no problem with this, any more than the Puritans coming from England and imposing their idea of "progress" on the so-called "savages." The problem, as I see it, is that we assumed that WL had left human culture behind. We were not getting oriental culture but heavenly culture. And who could criticize heaven? So when problems occurred, as they always do, we had to pretend they didn't exist. In the Local Church meetings we were free, even encouraged, to criticize "Christianity", and that meant the Protestants, the RCC, the EO, the "free groups", etc. But we were not free to question the Local Church organization, or the Maximum Leader in Anaheim. So a group that offered "home" actually became quite alienating, because there was nowhere else to go. Many American saints testified that they were "wrecked" for the Local Church. I don't know what they say there in Russia, but in the U.S. Local Churches they strongly push "burning all your bridges" with any connections outside the collective. It is an immersive, intense experience where everything inside the collective is "good" and everything outside is "bad." Your family doesn't know any better, the Christian Church is degraded, the world is sinful, etc etc. Supposedly the only source of information free from corruption is from the Maximum Leader who is "God's oracle." And thus the path has been cleared for a distorted Christian journey. No longer do you hear your conscience, the Bible, or the Spirit; instead your focus is on the speaking of God's current oracle.
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06-23-2014, 09:16 AM | #44 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
The problem that we have was said well in this quote:
Quote:
We see the things we see as true. But they don't. They see something else as true. Doesn't matter that it is actually false. And the real problem is the first sentence in the quote. We are busy pushing conclusions rather than finding solutions. We want to tell them that they are wrong rather than show them how they are wrong. Or how we are right. It takes the opening of the eyes. Theirs have been shut to everything not published by the LSM. They are so used to having blinders and colored glasses on that they do not even notice the apparatus on their heads or the weight of the coke-bottle prescription, Lee-colored glasses on their noses. They think that anything to the left or right of the path straight ahead into the door of the meeting hall is poison and dangerous. If it did not come as the result of their standing order with LSM, they are unqualified to read it and discern whether there is truth in it or whether Lee's still echoing mantra that all they need is in the LSM materials is the truth. Sometimes a simple "but that's not what it says" may be the opener. And you may not get another opportunity to say another word for some time. Maybe even several years. They may just avoid talking anything spiritual, religious, etc., with you from then on. But there will be that "but that's not what it says" bugging them. Maybe they will eventually begin to read a little on their own and see that you are right. It might take years. But I've seen it work. How did Americans get fooled by such a thing? They were searching for "different" and they found it. But it was a cold pot with gallons of water in it and a single candle underneath trying to heat it. The change was subtle and slow. The only other thing to say is that some are predisposed to be followers. They will follow what is in front of them. When a car passes on the highway, they unconsciously speed up and follow. When a poll says that more people are voting for candidate X today than yesterday, they decide to join the herd. I know. That is very cynical. But I see the first day after day. And there is no other reason to publish political polls to the general population. It is a factor in the nature of people. And some will take advantage of it whenever they can.
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06-23-2014, 09:48 AM | #45 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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It doesn't, however, explain what Zeek brought up. If Nee and Lee's theology was informed from an Asian mindset, how is it that we Americas fell for it? I read somewhere in this thread a mention that Nee and Lee were raised in some form of the protestant movement. If I'm not mistaken, they were both raised in Christian homes. So weren't they raised with a Christian Mindset? They were Chinese in China. If Lee let go of that then why was he still speaking in a broken English Chinese accent? None of us failed to realize that the local church came out of China. In a sense the Christian missionary imperialists invaded China, and China, thru Lee, invaded America back. Now who was the imperialist? Now who was, like the Christian missionaries bringing Western culture and ways into China, bringing Chinese culture and ways to America? With something new, to American Christians. And high grade Christians joined the Nee/Lee movement, that invaded America. It was something new, and it came out of China. Our question is, how much of China was brought in? How much of the local church was influenced by China?
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06-23-2014, 09:53 AM | #46 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Quote:
Question: Is it true that there is freedom of speech in the Soviet Union, just like in the USA? Answer: In principle, yes. In the USA, you can stand in front of the White House in Washington, DC, and yell, "Down with Reagan!", and you will not be punished. Equally, you can also stand in Red Square in Moscow and yell, "Down with Reagan!", and you will not be punished. They say there are about 200 Local Churches in Russia, but I don't know anything about the situation there. I have never attended any LC in Russia. About 7 years ago I read a review of a Russian guy who was invited to an LC meeting. He said he had never attended anything more boring than the meeting. I can't say for the Chinese but that is very Russian. Probably, that is why there are 200 Local Churches in Russia.
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06-23-2014, 10:58 AM | #47 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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At one point the LC meetings were quite local. In the Jesus Movement of the late 1960s and early 1970s you had all these young people, who were allowed and even encouraged to function in the LC meetings. But as regional and local leaders were raised up in this system who exercised their "gifts" and became a threat to the central power, then the Maximum Leader, WL, said that every LC group must be "absolutely identical" (see e.g. RcV footnotes in Revelation 2 and 3). Absolutely identical to what? They ended up with meetings of people who were afraid and unable to think and speak beyond the footnotes and training outlines.
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06-23-2014, 11:04 AM | #48 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
It is interesting that the LCs propers in places like Russia, Mexico, and major countries in Asia, but NOT the US and Europe. This tells you something about the culture of the LC, perhaps it is not so much "Chinese" based, but as someone mentioned in an earlier post: it is about "independence" vs "group", and "freedom" vs "organization", etc...
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06-23-2014, 11:14 AM | #49 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I spent time in Japan and it was totally different than the U.S. No trash. You go to Louisiana and they still have trees down from hurricane Katrina. You go to where the Japanese tsunami hit and they have it totally cleaned up. The culture of entitlement is not there in Japan. You don't work, you don't eat. So Lee was attractive to all these young Americans. You didn't have to be from a broken home. The guy got up early and he worked late. Surely he was more impressive than any theology professor RK saw in Princeton. But he was still a man, and he put his pants on one leg at a time, just like everbody else. And eventually his "humanity" came forth, and it was not the humanity of Jesus. But he built a system that taught us to look the other way. Quote:
But in a way, you touch on the system going full circle. Only it wasn't the divine system. Nee raised up a local alternative to Western imperialism, which arguably was there. His movement was very successful. Eventually one of the strains of that movement made its way to America, and the imperialism was returned. And this time the cloak was cleverly set; once you "saw the local ground" you were set up to swallow the whole thing, "Deputy God" and all. You gotta give Satan credit - he isn't called the "subtle one" for nothing. Eventually we re-created the Roman monster. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
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06-23-2014, 11:25 AM | #50 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Aron, you are doing an impressive job.
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06-23-2014, 12:45 PM | #51 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
From post #14, "On the other hand, though, there is a reason why so many members can't see the elephant, and why the leaders (in my view) should be given some slack for failing to evict it."
When it comes to the leaders looking the other way, I cannot in sound conscience cut them any slack. |
06-23-2014, 01:01 PM | #52 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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By contrast in the Western culture I've heard the saying many times, "respect is earned and not given". Even with the current administration of the US government, every move made by the president is scrutinized and critiqued as if under a microscope. Just as on this forum there has been much scrutinizing and critiquing. It's easy for one to say "respect the feeling of the Body". Respect is earned and not given. |
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06-23-2014, 01:14 PM | #53 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
When the serving brothers touched Philip Lee they found an Asian culture. They heard an Asian maxim, something like, "If you touch the master's dog you touch the master." The Asian code of 'face' had been violated.
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06-23-2014, 02:23 PM | #54 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-23-2014, 02:25 PM | #55 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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The USA would rather let 10 guilty men roam the streets, than let one innocent man be wrongly imprisoned. The USSR, however, would rather have ten innocent men in prison, than let a guilty man go free. Great incentive to "behave.'
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06-23-2014, 03:36 PM | #56 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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In the 60s and 70s, at least we had an exciting form to wrap the lack of true content in. They had all these Jesus people who were ready (and allowed) to make the meetings exciting. So much so that we swallowed hooks with ruber worms on them to believe all kinds of nonsense and become aligned with a movement of error. How did Americans buy into a Chinese movement? Like so many, they were seeking spirituality and there is something about Eastern things that seems spiritual. The phrases had enough use of spiritual talk. It had an "elevated" lexicon of terms. They are convinced that saying it better makes it better. And if you can get a bunch of excited hippies to spice-up the meetings . . . .
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06-23-2014, 03:44 PM | #57 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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And the Soviet confederated system, like the Yugoslavian one, held together for some decades. McDonald's, for all their blandness (or because of their blandness) has sold billions of burgers. The Mormons have captured millions of adherents. And so forth. And likewise I think we can appreciate the system Nee & Lee set up, even if we disagree with it, even vehemently. And in the sub-systems of TC and DYL we have to recognize its ability to "morph" even while retaining some of its essential characteristics. And under those essential characteristics we may find certain cultural traits still predominating.
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06-23-2014, 03:46 PM | #58 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
That's about it in a nutshell. Thanks for that observational chestnut.
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06-23-2014, 03:57 PM | #59 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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All of that stuff is under the "common understanding" of the people that study it. And in evaluating the Local Church experience in its successes and failures, we might profit by considering the effect of culture. Because human culture does exist, and even though we insisted as Christians that we were the "one new man", if you step back and look carefully you might still see traces of the old man's culture(s), even in the framework of the religious collective. I think WL successfully blinded us to this, to some degree, and it may have been a big part of his survival.
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06-23-2014, 05:18 PM | #60 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So there is actually a lot of observed behavior to look at. If you step back and examine it en masse, there are actually some generalizations that you can safely make. Enough so that there are plenty of folks who make a good living doing just that. And if we want to be persons of insight (Proverbs 20:5) we might learn something from them, as well. If we think that we are too spiritual to learn, then we learn little if at all.
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06-23-2014, 05:43 PM | #61 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I will start by saying that just because a system takes hold and prospers is not a sign that it has validity, but that it has people who are determined that since they have put themselves into it, they are going to be damned if it does not look good. But putting the LRC and Marx in the same paragraph is insightful, even if you didn't realize it. Seems that Marx was a master at using words with more than one meaning as a way to get the ignorant fired-up for his subterfuge. He saw that the word "exploit" was used in the economic sense to mean that a resource was used. If you work, your work is used. To an economist, that is to "exploit" your work. But the word is commonly understood to mean "used" in a negative sense, such as in an illicit manner. you are said to "exploit" the homeless by getting photo ops with them for political purposes but not actually intending to do anything about it. But this use of the word "exploit" is not what the economists are talking about. But Marx makes sure that the word "exploit" is used in a way that makes the fact that you work for someone else seem as if you are being cheated. That fired-up a bunch of ignorant workers and we had a workers revolution. Then came Nee and Lee. They used words just as masterfully as Marx. They did it well in Chinese. And despite the choppy "English-as-a-second-language" schtick, Lee was a master at using words in just as underhanded a way. He embellished as much as possible, then when it suited his aims, he carved away every meaning of words so that they only meant the one thing he wanted them to mean. "This simply means that . . . ."
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06-23-2014, 10:07 PM | #62 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-23-2014, 10:36 PM | #63 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I am new to this forum and just posted in Introductions. Concerning culture. The LC seems to want us to dispense with our culture altogether. We are to cease being individuals, which is against what we as Americans have been taught all our lives. We are free in this nation because we fought for individual and collective freedom. According to the LC, we are to dispense with holidays and the "selfish" celebration of our own or others' birthdays. We are to have only a collective mentality. We are not to form close personal relationships and have buddies. All these things are part of our culture, and I, for one, like these things. I do not believe Jesus wants us to cut off our emotions and be robots. I believe God loves variety, as evidenced by His varieties in creation. He made us emotional creatures. Loving life is being free to enjoy many things. Any church that tries to suppress our emotions and control our attitudes is a cult.
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06-23-2014, 10:38 PM | #64 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-23-2014, 10:53 PM | #65 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-24-2014, 04:22 AM | #66 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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BTW, there is a verse that distinguishes between the body, soul and spirit: "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."(I Thess. 5:23)." I can't explain what spirit is, either. Probably, it's elusive because it's invisible, not physical. I tried to find answers reading the EOC doctrines, got some insights, but I am still unable to give a clear definition. And I believe even if I could get a definite answer, I'd not be able to comprehend it, anyway. Nevertheless, I'll try to explain the term "spirit". But first of all, let's definite what body and soul are: 1. The body, “dust from the ground” (Gen. 2:7), is the physical or material aspect of man’s nature. 2. The soul is the life-force that vivifies and animates the body, causing it to be not just a lump of matter, but something that grows and moves, that feels and perceives. In the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition, the term 'soul' refers both to the spiritual (not physical) element in our existence and to life itself. Anything that has life is called a soul. The soul is the sign of life, but it is not the cause of life. It is the bearer of life. Animals also possess a soul, and so perhaps do plants. But in man’s case the soul is endowed with consciousness; it is a rational soul, possessing the capacity for abstract thought, and the ability to advance by discursive argument from premises to a conclusion. These powers are present in animals, if at all, only to a very limited degree. In the New Testament, the soul appears also to be the bearer of eternal life, and therefore, the salvation of the soul is identified with the possibility of life which does not know corruption and death. 3. The spirit is that force which God breathed into man when He created him. Spirit, the “breath” from God (Gen. 2:7), is the highest aspect of the soul, which the animals lack. Animals have feelings and different character traits but they don't strive for God. The spirit represents man's active participation in God. It is important to distinguish “Spirit”, with an initial capital, from “spirit” with a small "s". The created spirit of man is not to be identified with the uncreated or Holy Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity; yet the two are intimately connected, for it is through his spirit that man apprehends God and enters into communion with him. With his soul (psyche) man engages in scientific or philosophical inquiry, analyzing the data of his sense-experience by means of the discursive reason. With his spirit (pneuma), which is sometimes termed nous or spiritual intellect, he understands eternal truth about God or about theology or inner essences of created things, not through deductive reasoning, but by direct apprehension or spiritual perception – by a kind of intuition that St Isaac the Syrian calls “simple cognition”. The spirit or spiritual intellect is thus distinct from man’s reasoning powers and his aesthetic emotions, and superior to both of them. (I mainly quoted Metropolitan Kallistos Ware's book 'The Orthodox Way'). Spirituality in the EOC means the everyday activity of life in communion with God. The term spirituality refers not merely to the activity of man's spirit alone, his mind, heart, and soul, but it refers as well to the whole of man's life as inspired and guided by the Spirit of God. Every act of a Christian must be a spiritual act. Everyday thought must be spiritual, every word, every deed, every activity of the body, every action of the person. This mean, that all that a person thinks, says and does must be inspired and guided by the Holy Spirit so that the will of God the Father might be accomplished as revealed and taught by Jesus Christ the Son of God. "…whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." (1 Corinthians 10:31) Doing all things to the glory of God is the meaning and substance of life for a human being. This "doing" is what Christian spirituality is about. A person can abide in Christ, accomplish His commandments and be in communion with God the Father only by the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in his life. Spiritual life is life in and by the Holy Spirit. I can't logically understand WL's words when he said that God doesn't need spiritual giants. Was it something Asian or was he just afraid of competition? In my culture, spiritual giants are those who bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Their life is the life in and by the Holy Spirit. The more spiritual giants, the better. But according to WL, God needs a different type of people. They don't need to be spiritual. They don't need to develop their personal relationship with God. They just need need to belong to the LRC, "exercise their spirit" by reading WL's books, and do all things to the glory of WL and his church. That's a spiritual life in the LRC.
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06-24-2014, 04:27 AM | #67 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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The ONLY holiday which the church endorced was the celebration of Chinese New Year. Supposedly it was celebrated as a means to introduce Chinese guests to the gospel. But why then didn't we use Christmas to introduce American guests to the gospel? Friendships in the LC's are discouraged. The members are convinced that friendships spoil their spiritual sacrifice much like honey spoiled the OT offerings. The teaching is extremely manipulative, forcing member loyalties to only adhere to LSM leadership, and no others.
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06-24-2014, 06:16 AM | #68 |
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Asian Culture meets West Texas Culture: Don Rutledge testimony
From Don Rutledge
Ray Graver was strongly bent toward the teaching of “Deputy Authority.” He believed that in every activity of the church deputy authority should be manifested. Before the consolidation in Houston a few brothers in Waco and Lubbock were given copies of the “Eldership Papers.” These were messages given by Witness Lee in Taiwan. One of the main points was that there was an order in the eldership and in all manifestations of God’s work. There was a number one elder, a number two elder, a number three elder, and so forth. The same was true in the practical service in the church, such as cleaning the meeting hall, serving in the children’s meeting, and preparing food for a love feast. Until the number one person made a decision, there would be discussion (fellowship) regarding a matter, but once the “number one” gave his judgment all fellowship was over on that matter and any desire for further discussion was considered to be dissension and against God’s authority. Ray Graver had come up with a teaching and a principle from the listings of the names of the twelve apostles in the New Testament. He discovered that the various listings in Matthew, Mark, Luke and Acts could be divided into three groups of four and that the first name in each grouping was always the same. Therefore, one might infer that here was a clue regarding divine deputy authority. While the order of number two, three and four could shift, the number one was always the same. This was introduced about the same time that the elders set up the practical service with various service groups. The elders used a model that Witness Lee had used in China and Taiwan. All the members of the church were organized into various service groups: children’s meetings, cleaning, yard work, visitation etc. They also appointed four deacons including myself four deacons, one of which was myself. Ray met with me personally to go over the entire service list. He emphasized that I was the number one deacon and should communicate with each service group through the number one person listed under each group. I was specifically charged to draw up a procedural manual for the deacons called “the common way.” This was a term and practice lifted directly from Witness Lee’s practice in China and Taiwan. The elders charged each service group leadership to develop a “common way” and to submit it to the deacons. I never complied and never developed a “common way.” I was the youngest brother and newest Christian among the deacons (Don Looper, Herman Massey and Jim Coleman being the other three), and for me to have some kind of official leadership or authority was a little silly. When I moved to Dallas, the “number one” concept and “common way” practice were left behind in Houston with Ray Graver. We did have service groups with leadership and oversight, but did not carry out Ray Graver’s concept. Ray was very gifted in the area of organizing activities and projects. He worked hard to push for one project after another. Over time, his projects became more important than his participation in church meetings, shepherding, fellowship and gospel work. The more he dedicated himself to the projects coming from Witness Lee or Benson Phillips, the more he became suspicious of individual saints and different churches. Eventually he saw a competition between the spiritual work of an individual saint and an LSM project. He seemed to always think that the worst motives were motivating an individual saint, and especially those of a local leadership. Witness Lee had an illustration regarding how “the self” is expressed and how to apply the cross to “the self.” He often declared that your opinion is the expression of the self. Thus, when someone offered a different perspective from that of a “number one,” they may be exhorted to deny their self by denying their opinion even if they are “right.” Ray Graver and a few others ran with this notion. They applied it widely. It seemed that there were a number of West Texans who latched onto this idea: Francis Ball, James Barber, Benson Phillips, Ben McPherson and others. Though Ray was originally from Virginia, he went to college at Wayland and adopted the West Texas code. I believe that the cultural background of the leadership was a big factor in the development of the local churches in the USA.(My italics) The men from West Texas brought a male-dominated and male-centric culture into the local churches that melded well with the male-dominated culture of China, the place where Witness Lee and other leaders were from. These West Texans were anything but weak. Several came from the oil fields and working ranches. They could sacrifice comfort and self interest and expected the same from others. The West Texas culture promoted strong leaders and fierce loyalty to the leader. The followers of the leader were expected to lay aside their own feelings and follow the leader fearlessly into whatever situation they may face. Lest the reader ask “where does Don Rutledge get off talking about West Texas culture?”, let me mention that Baylor University, my school, has the Texas Library and Texas Ranger Museum. It is the center for the study of Texas history. While in Waco, I developed an interest in Western history and particularly Texas history. This has been a hobby of mine for forty-plus years. I have read scores of books on this subject including many on the character of the early and later Texans. In contrast to West Texas, I come from the poorest section of the USA, the lower Mississippi River valley. I did appreciated the West Texans’ rugged character, as I myself had slept in the rain, had friends who needed to hunt and fish for food and who worked “can till can’t” in the hot southern sun. (“Can till can’t” means this: you start working when there is enough daylight so that one “can” see and you do not stop until it is so dark that one “can’t” see.) There was no lunch break. You ate whatever you had while you worked. You were not paid by the hour but by the day, provided the boss thought you had worked hard enough. I did see young teenage boys sent home without any pay because they had not pulled their share of the load. As a result, they faced a beating at home. But the next day, they did “jump up and turn around” and carry their share of the work. Thus, I appreciated the West Texan toughness, but I did not come from a culture which honored a leader as did the West Texans did. In fact, we in Arkansas had plenty of resentment toward the exploiting “planter class” which oppressed the peasants. It was sports that provided us a level ground with the sons of the planters. During pre-season, our high school football team had live scrimmages and hitting drills every day. The hitting and contact was ferocious. Not one son of a planter ever survived pre-season. They all would quit rather than continue to take the beating the peasants handed them. We peasants had sympathy toward the weaker members of our society, and especially for ones oppressed. I believe the Lord Jesus puts into his believers a strong desire to bestow more abundant honor on the less comely and to protect the weak. One of the main reasons I eventually left the local churches was the rough treatment received by weaker ones and ones whose opinions did not match the leaders’ ideas. I recognize in some ways my reaction to the “lording it over” that came in later days may have been partly due to my culture. (My italics) Ransford Ackah of Ghana once told me, “Don, you always favor the poor.” I had to confess to him that his statement was true. Regardless of our background, culture, disposition, or how our mother raised us, we all need to be transformed and conformed to Christ. As this book develops, I ask the reader to allow me to comment on the personalities and background of different leading figures.
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06-24-2014, 06:22 AM | #69 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-24-2014, 08:12 AM | #70 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-24-2014, 08:32 AM | #71 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Take heart. I have bunches of friends from the local church. But they are all exLCers. In fact, my most dearest and precious friends are from the local church. And I love them to death. But we weren't suppose to be friends while in the LC. What a funny and unnatural rule and practice not having friends is. Of course the supposed reason is that, our hearts are suppose to be wholly for Christ, and nothing else. They seem to forget about "the least of these." My advice is to run, run, run, from the LC. If your LC friend cuts contact with you after leaving, she wasn't a real friend in the first place ; she's just pretending to be a friend, while hoping you get captured in the LC. Go find a church where they've never heard of such a silly rule. That's not a cult. If you stay, not being friends is just one aspect of your humanity that will be condemned and stripped away. It's a cult. You won't be allowed to even be your self, if you stay. You'll have to take Witness Lee's personally as your own. Run Forest run.
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06-24-2014, 10:26 AM | #72 | |
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More from Don Rutledge
More from Don Rutledge's testimony on Local Church leadership
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One of my Local Church elders was very similar: if Elder #1 said to jump off a bridge, we all were to jump. So your conscience and following the Spirit and discerning the word all got telescoped to a very narrow range, that of supporting the one over you. "Follow the one in front of you." In some cultures this may be more normative but I find it very anathematic, yet I tried, "for the church life".
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06-24-2014, 10:38 AM | #73 | |
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Re: Asian Culture meets West Texas Culture: Don Rutledge testimony
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#2 If the apostle John and Paul were in the same room, do you think that John would really listen to Watchman Nee's idea that he should know who was over him (i.e. Paul)? John would laugh in Nee's face if he told him to be submissive to Paul. Nor, importantly, did John ever attempt to boss Paul. #3. Did John then get restored to the "mantle" once Paul exited the scene, to write his memoirs (Gospel, epistles, Apocalypse)? Now that he was the Big Kahuna he got the Spirit to write? This "God can only move through one servant; all others must line up" idea is looney tunes. It was from Jump.
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06-24-2014, 12:43 PM | #74 | |
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Re: Asian Culture meets West Texas Culture: Don Rutledge testimony
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Like aron said, that was akin to looney tunes.
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06-24-2014, 02:00 PM | #75 | |
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Re: Asian Culture meets West Texas Culture: Don Rutledge testimony
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She eventually talked her husband, and one of his friends to a meeting. They were right behind me. Well, the meeting got going and was on fire with great enthusiasm, action, lively testimonies, songs, and heavenly festivities, with everyone on their feet. And I overheard the friend say to the president next to him, "These people are a half a bubble off level." (They were smart. That's the last we saw of them.) Well I didn't take it to heart at that time, nor were I insulted. But I never forgot it. Bro Zeek and I were talking and I brought that incident up. And we quickly went to: We were at least a half a bubble off level, if not more, and prolly still are. Methinks we were all looney tunes, and Tinker Bells. Just own it.
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06-24-2014, 03:40 PM | #76 | |
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Re: Asian Culture meets West Texas Culture: Don Rutledge testimony
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But think about it this way. God, who is holy and righteous, sent His only Begotten Son, Jesus, into Satan's vortex where we were trapped, and rescued us. Jesus said that the angels cheer when we repent and turn back to God. Why? Because they love us, man, they love us! Sometimes I sense a whiff of the divine love and it is so intoxicating, so overwhelming that I don't want anything else. Then 5 minutes later I forget! Oh, man! God loves us. God loves us. God loves us. Yes, I'm a little bit teched in the head.
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06-24-2014, 08:02 PM | #77 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Well here's a nice Christian church in Changzhou, China, built in the architecture of the western mind, adorned with consumer stores in the style of the Chinese consumer mind, offering five or six services a week and scarily reminiscent of the LC with a lot of "Amen" chanting going on inside.
The painting to the right of the interior shot was interesting, I didn't get it all in, sorry, but it features a westernized non-Middle-Eastern pastoral Jesus with a very Chinese "Three Gorges" mountainous background. The sheep, as best I can figure, are Scottish. |
06-24-2014, 10:40 PM | #78 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Since we're speculating already, I may as well go further. You know, God is supposed to be the God of the entire universe. So for God to act within the universe as God would really mess things up. I mean there are laws of physics that would be violated and that almost never happens outside of the Bible. But, from time to time people get a sense of a momentous presence that they can't explain. The experience is so awesome that they suppose that they are in the presence of that which cannot be exceeded. They can never really explain it and they have to use a symbol to point to it. That symbol is "the Holy Spirit." Now, have I said anything more than your text? Maybe not. But I thought I should at least try to put the matter in my own words rather than settle for rote repetition like WL taught us to do in his training sessions. He didn't want original thinkers there either, just parrots. |
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06-25-2014, 01:25 AM | #79 | ||||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
That's a great post, Zeek. Thanks! It's hard for me to argue with someone who got a B.A. in Psychology. Nevertheless, l'll try to put my two cents in.
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As for spirituality in our daily life, I like this quote by St Thophan the Recluse: We are all servants of our God. God has assigned to each his place and responsibilities, and He watches to see how each approaches his assignment. He is everywhere. And He watches over you. Keep this in mind and do each deed as if it were assigned to you directly by God, no matter what it is. Do your housework in this manner: When someone comes to visit, keep in mind that God has sent you this visitor, and is watching. When you have to leave your house, keep in mind that God has sent you out on an errand, and is watching. Will you complete it as He wishes? By orienting yourself to God at all times, your chores at home and responsibilities outside the house will not distract your attention from God, but, on the contrary, will keep you intent on completing all tasks in a God-pleasing manner. All will be performed with the fear of God, and this fear will keep your attention on God unswervingly. To determine which duties inside and outside the family are God-pleasing, take the books in which these matters are discussed as your guides. Be careful to distinguish between concerns prompted by frivolity, passions, flattery and worldliness, from those that are correct, appropriate and honorable. Quote:
"The principal thing is to walk before God, or under God's eye aware that God is looking at you, searching your soul and your heart, seeing all that is there. This awareness is the most powerful lever in the mechanism of the inner spiritual life. (Theophan the Recluse)
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06-25-2014, 06:27 AM | #80 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But I do know this: I have a story in front of me. It is the story of God's love. God is holy, and because of our sin we were lost. We were so lost we didn't know we were lost. We didn't know what love was. How could we? We had no reference point. But then, in the gospel of the Son, Jesus Christ, we sensed God's love and we repented and turned back (yes, I got that from WL: 'repentance' as not only being sorry, or regretful, but changing one's course). We have the written narrative in front of us, in all the details, of Jesus Christ. All the ancient writings pointed to the coming One, and one day Jesus was here; seemingly the son of a Nazarene carpenter, whose brothers argued with him (see e.g. John ch. 7). We have the four gospels, fulfilling the OT prophecies to the 'jot and tittle'. We have the rest of the NT, which is arguably all of apace. Now, here the discussion turns to the 'church life'... I cannot say with the conviction of a Nee or Lee that some organizational model is right, or true. But I can say that no discussion that distracts me from the story of God's love will gain much traction. And if the church, the collective witness of the saints, tells these church-occupied people that they are missing the mark, that we as the church should rather be occupied with our Christ, and with receiving one another, than with building better organizational mousetraps, then even if they don't agree, at least they'll know that they've been spoken to. Then if they want to reject that and pursue another reality, fine. That is their journey. What more can we say? Quote:
Certainly the U.S. in the 1950s into the early 1960s was a dominant cultural, military, and economic power. But we had: #1 the race issue. Big problem. Not only African-Americans, but Hispanics, Native Americans, etc. A lot of marginalized and repressed people that were tired of it, and were talking. #2 The environmental issue. 'Prosperity', arguably merely shallow materialism, meant ruining the environment. Very discouraging, even frightening. #3 The whole nuclear annihilation thing. Armageddon was one red button away, with some 22-year old sergeant in a bunker in North Dakota staring at the thing all day long, waiting to be told to push it. #4 Political unrest; JFK shot, then his brother RFK, then MLK shot, etc, etc. #5 Vietnam came along; our friends, brothers, and cousins were going off to get blown up in some jungle, for what? For Monsanto? For Dow Chemical Corp? #6 There is more (the women's rights issue, for example), but you get my point. A society that by all rights should be peaceful and contented, but hardly. Actually a very alienated and restless society. So the "eastern way" offered Americans a sophisticated alternative. I don't see much coming out of Africa except Rastafarianism. South America? Central America? I don't see anything significant, which can compete. The European, Protestant-dominated model was tired and exposed. So the Asian model certainly had some traction. "Model" meaning "way of doing things". Like what I wrote earlier about Philip Lee and the idea of 'face'. That was an Asian thing, largely, and we unwittingly let it in when we let in WL. Asian culture isn't superior or inferior to Western, but we pretended it didn't exist, in our new and shiny "Normal Christian Church Life". So it became the proverbial elephant in the room, to a significant degree. http://www.livingstreambooks.com/ser...h-Life,/Detail "The Normal Christian Church Life is a record of messages given during conferences held in Shanghai and Hankow. Watchman Nee spoke to his fellow workers on the principles in the New Testament concerning the practical arrangement of the churches, the ministry, and the work. In his speaking, he honestly examined his own work before the Lord in the light of these principles, provided adjustment and encouragement to his co-workers, and confirmed through personal testimony that the practice of the normal Christian church life revealed in the New Testament can be recovered." So my question is, in the "practical recovery" of the supposedly normal Christian church experience, as presented by Nee, how much is a culturally-conditioned response to imperialism? And how much of that became the new imperialism, as we experienced it, in the American Local Churches of Lee? Go back and read the testimonies of those who went through Lee's "recovered" Local Churches, and if you keep these questions in mind as you read, you may be surprised.
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06-25-2014, 06:50 AM | #81 | ||
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Re: Asian Culture meets West Texas Culture: Don Rutledge testimony
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In this immenseness, by comparison, even our sun and solar system are invisible specks. Then we have the earth, an even smaller invisible speck, and finally us humans, less than an invisible speak of dust ; completely nothing by comparison with the immense universe. And yet, as you say, "God loves us. God loves us. God loves us." And that blows my mind. Quote:
And if we, by comparison to the universe, are less than an invisible speck of dust, what do you think our brain is? Is it any wonder we're all a little tetched in the head? Our thoughts are even smaller. And I say: wonders of wonders, mysteries of mysteries ... not only is the universe mysterious, but so is God ... and so is God's love.
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06-25-2014, 11:04 AM | #82 | |||||||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-25-2014, 01:15 PM | #83 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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The question that I have is whether we were made to feel alive or to be alive? If you don't feel alive, are you no longer alive? This whole realm fits in nicely with the question I raised in another thread about "God's plan." We are so often conditioned to believe that our "inner sense" is a barometer of God's activity in and around us. And we think that a lack of discernible activity is somehow evidence of a failure on our part. A variant on the prosperity gospel. We seek the feeling because it proves to us that we are on the right track. And if we don't feel it, then we are doing something wrong. That is what Lee's dispensing did for us. We learned to consider that "getting dispensing" was all we needed so we learned to feel good about that. And we also learned that just doing what we knew was right was not right. But we were duped. It really was right. In the meantime, as we felt good for doing "spiritual things" and "getting dispensing" while ignoring righteousness, it would be safe to say that any accurate sense of God should have been displeasure. But it was not. Or at least we thought it was not. God's goal is not to be active everywhere and everyone know it because they sense it. It is (as it was) to have his created people be his representative. To bear his image on the earth. That can only be meaningful if he is not constantly visible and moving without us. We must become his hands and feet. We must be those who live the righteousness of God. It should not matter how we feel about it. We must be about our Father's business. Seems dry? No sense of personal speaking from God? Do we think that is the measure of the presence of God? What happened to omnipresent? What happened to "I am with you always"? Why do we allow the feelings to drive us? You will probably feel at least a little better for realizing that the way you feel is not an indicator of God's presence. And what if the feelings are self-created and revolve around the irrelevant? What then? I guess we strike out on our own based on whatever seems right to us based on a jolt of static electricity, a bad taco, or a reduction in back pain for the day. Yes, neither the Eastern nor Western mind owns these. They are natural and illusory. The difference should be that their religions have embraced it while our has (or should) ignore it.
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06-25-2014, 08:16 PM | #84 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-26-2014, 07:54 AM | #85 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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On the other hand, I admire my mother-in-law, an avid church-goer and long time member of the LRC, who says that she has never felt God's presence. Nevertheless, she is still faithful and, probably, loves God even more than I do.
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06-26-2014, 09:35 AM | #86 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Those good feelings, while sensing the presence of God, releases a dose of Oxytocin in the brain. And that is addictive. And it's neither Asian nor Western. It's human neurology.
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06-26-2014, 11:08 AM | #87 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
My therapist advised me to seek experiences that engender good feelings and now I find out that not only are good feelings "illusory" {OBW} but also addictive {awareness}. But let me ask you, isn't being addicted to a good thing a good end?
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06-26-2014, 11:08 AM | #88 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But the fact remains that over the past half-millenia all these groups have emerged, each trying to repair what's been lacking. Even the Mormons have some justification, if you look at it that way. Probably the "church life" in upstate NY in 1825 was as dead as a doornail. So a restless young man goes out into the woods and suddenly there is a golden frog or a white salamander or whatever, and suddenly his spiritual life gets very interesting; engrossing even. But if the spiritual life of young Joseph Smith was engrossing in the first place he wouldn't have needed talking amphibians, would he? I posit that perhaps all of these events show some reaction to the situation at hand, and they do it through an expression of the current popular culture. So Joseph Smith incorporates the seeking of gold, and instant wealth from the wilderness, with questions such as, "if Adam and Eve gave birth to all humanity, how did the American natives get here" and "what ever happened to the 12 tribes of Israel, anyway?" So young Mr. Smith gets a revelation that (surprise!) ties all the loose, unanswered threads together. Likewise in 1917 young Mr. Nee was indeed in a situation of cultural imperialism. And indeed there was religious degradation, and sectarianism, and hypocrisy. Indeed there was a gap between the written word and the experience on the ground. So Nee got a nice revelation that exposed the situation and proposed a solution, all within his cultural lens. And if you don't believe it, read the testimonies of those who passed through his system. And today the Blendeds talk about rejecting teachings having a "different flavor"; what flavor is the one they are promoting? Remember that the problem may be very real, and crying for a solution. But our solution is according to our cultural concepts, often subconscious. We can repress them and pretend they don't exist, but they do. Think of the "solution" the disciples wanted to the continuing Roman occupation, and the Herodian (who was an Idumean[Edomite]) usurpation, and Pharisaical religious hypocrisy, and the promise of the coming Son of David, whose kingdom would have no end. "Lord, are you at this time restoring the kingdom to Israel?" The kingdom they asked about there, was the kingdom of their cultural concepts. How could it have been any different? How can we see but else we can see? Only God can see the things of God. So the moral is, don't let people sell you their vision as if it were God's vision. Remember Lee's mocking degraded Christianity: how they hang socks every Christmas? We all laughed, yes; but what was his solution? The Local Churches/Little Flock is merely another "splinter cell", and arguably yet more collateral damage from the Great Schism of 1054.
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06-26-2014, 11:11 AM | #89 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-26-2014, 11:56 AM | #90 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But I suppose others may not see God in this way. And that's okay too. To each his or her own.
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06-26-2014, 03:34 PM | #91 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I never asked for any feelings, neither did I have any time of heart-wrenching or soul-searching repentance. I just was reading this Book my new friend gave me, who also had given me a ride home from school, after my car broke down. It was the first time in my life that I was filled with inner joy and peace. Without being told a thing by any other person, I knew that I knew that I was no longer destined for hell. After that experience, I had to tell everyone about what happened, and what my Savior had done for me. I really don't think that "releases a dose of Oxytocin in the brain" can adequately describe all that happened to me. Perhaps I am wrong, maybe I just got a mega-dose, like a super-sized salvation. P.S. About 8 months after this experience, after numerous trials, both good and bad, I went to a gospel meeting near my home at the Church in Cleveland. In that meeting, I had the distinct feeling that the "dose" I received in the meeting was identical to the "dose" I had initially received, which was all the confirmation needed to stay with that church for a very long time. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
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06-26-2014, 04:54 PM | #92 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I wouldn't think of trying to unstick you for all the tea in China (in keeping in theme of the thread)
Seriously, and I'm not sure how much this relates to the Asian/Western dichotomy nature of this, but I don't think that many of us had even a slightly unremarkable initial experience of "touching the Church". I was a 17 year old Orange County, Calvary Chapel attending, space cadet with bushy blond hair who looked like a fish out of water...but there was something about the atmosphere that attracted me. I was in a "brother's house" (with a future Blended Brother) on the weekend of my 18th birthday. I think the thing that set my parents and Christian siblings off as much as anything else was the "Asian flavor". Even though mid-1970s Orange County did have a substantial Asian population, there was not much of an Asian influence among evangelicals at that point. To me, Chinese people were a bit of a cultural/spiritual mystery, and that made Witness Lee all the more of an attraction (much to the chagrin of my parents and family). Of course as time went by, I boldly declared to my family that "in the local church we don't have any culture!". At that point I was just a little college-aged punk who had no idea that I was firmly entrenched in one of the most "culturally intense" (if there is even such a term) religious movements to hit our fair land. But at that point if Witness Lee said we had no culture, then it must be true...we had no culture. Looking back, it seems to me now that this was one of Witness Lee's many ruses on us gullible Americans - that we could actually establish and maintain a complicated, involved religious culture without actually having any culture.
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06-26-2014, 05:51 PM | #93 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I find that there is one song that the LRC sang that they do not seem to really believe. A verse went something like "The feelings do not change the fact." It is not important what the rest of the song was about. That one statement was true. But then they go and accept or reject virtually everything based on their feelings and "taste." My goal was not to chastise you, but to give a different perspective on the experience you had in the early days. Not saying that feelings are bad, but that they do not dictate whether things are good or bad. They do not define the truth or establish our spiritual condition. (Also not saying that if you feel really bad about something that you have done wrong and you sense a need to repent that such a feeling is a bad thing or to be ignored.)
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06-26-2014, 07:45 PM | #94 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I asked if that is what you think you are doing. Apparently not, because you admitted that you [ as part of the royal "we"] are often not good at it. If that's the case, then I submit that your righteousness is not "of God" because, as I'm sure you are aware, God is supposed to be very good at it. Perhaps you learned to ignore your feeling when you were in the Local Church. I know I did. As long as you went through the motions and made the right noises, it was OK with most of the "saints". We were taught to release our spirit [by which I mean shout slogans] regardless how we felt. Eventually I caught myself acting a part and I wondered if other people who shouted were acting too. Later on, some confirmed that they were. That's how the leadership got us to behave like robots. It's really healthy to pay attention to your feelings. They are an important part of consciousness that imparts information about what is good or bad, right or wrong, sometimes even before we can think our way through situations. This book supports what I am claiming about the importance of feelings: http://www.amazon.com/Emotional-Inte...l+intelligence
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06-26-2014, 08:28 PM | #95 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I'm still keenly interested in what means "righteousness of God," and "being about the Father's business." I picture the times of our record on it. And wonder if that's what they mean. How could we ever hope to live up to that?
That's why I would like an explanation on them.
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06-26-2014, 09:05 PM | #96 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I practiced this is a monastery once, in Kathmandu, every morning was a beautiful sunrise at 5am or so and we would all go to take tea and watch it - in silence of course. And then one morning I decided this was merely an illusion. I sat in a corner facing a wall, still on the rotating planet, still feeling the sun come up, but without that "sunrise kodak moment". Just being. That felt like freedom and space. That was more of a divine revelation, to me, than the blah blah worshipful beauty of the dawn sky. You could argue the "fall" was the first illusion - we're naked, we need clothes, and everything else since then has been just all in our minds. |
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06-26-2014, 09:51 PM | #97 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I think this matter of "the righteousness of God" is very applicable to our discussions here on this thread.
In general, I think that Asian people are looked upon as more moral and/or "righteous" than us westerners. Whether this is actually true or not may not be as relevant as we might think. "Perception is reality" is more of a truism than we Christians may want to admit. Now when it comes to Witness Lee, perception was most certainly reality, at least when it come to how he was viewed, admired and followed by his flock. The perception of who and what Lee was to us equaled reality. So when others from within or without told us otherwise, we simply blew them off as "opposers". Anyway, one point I would make is that the righteousness of God is JUST THAT - THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. It's HIS righteousness and not ours. The apostle Paul made it very clear: "Not having a righteousness of my own" (Phil 3:9). And how more clearer could have our Lord been when he exclaimed:"unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."?(Matt 5:30) These were pretty righteous dudes, those scribes and Pharisees. So it cannot necessarily be an outward, visible righteousness that was talking about. God is after MUCH more than the outward man, but moreso after the "hidden man of the heart".
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06-26-2014, 11:08 PM | #98 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I want to share Anthony Bloom's testimony that always inspires me: "Up to my middle teens I was an unbeliever and very aggressively anti-church. I knew no god; I wasn’t interested and hated everything connected with the idea of God. Later, I began to look for meaning in life. Studying and making oneself useful for life didn’t convince me at all. As a member of a Russian youth organization I was talked into listening to a presentation by a priest. The presentation made me more indignant and angry. I immediately went home and asked my Mother for a book of the Gospel. I counted chapters looking for the shortest one and started reading St. Mark. While I was reading the beginning of St. Mark’s Gospel, before I reached the third chapter, I suddenly became aware that on the other side of my desk there was a presence. And the certainty was so strong that it was Christ standing there that it has never left me. This was the real turning point because Christ was alive and I had been in His presence. I could say with certainty that what the Gospel said about the crucifixion of the prophet of Galilee was true. History I had to believe, the Resurrection I knew for a fact. It began as an event that left all problems of disbelief behind because it was a direct and personal experience.” He saw nothing. He heard nothing. He just became aware of God's presence. This was neither a sensory hallucination nor a trance-like state, nor even the product of emotions. It was an encounter experienced with complete sobriety and equilibrium. Anthony Bloom used to say about this event that “God for me became a fact.” I believe God must become a fact for every Christian, not just be a theory or an abstract idea. But this happens only through personal relationship of man and God. I don't know if God was a fact for WL, but I believe that in the LRC, God is rather an abstract principle than a fact. They are too busy with God's plan, God's church, and God's economy that they don't have time to establish a personal relationship with God himself. “We should try to live in such a way that if the Gospels were lost, they could be re-written by looking at us.” (Anthony Bloom)
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06-27-2014, 05:33 AM | #99 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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It's like a young college girl bringing home an African-American or Asian man to meet mommy & daddy. The parents may be liberal, they may be conservative, but this girl is reacting, at least unconsciously, to the "same old, same old" of her upbringing. Because face it, by the time you are 18, often, what you grew up with feels old and restrictive. You want new horizons. The Lee group's strangeness was not off-putting in that regard. Its newness was attractive, the same way a young person of a different race or culture may be to a teen: all the girls or boys of your peer group are familiar, and generic (boring), and suddenly here comes this exotic person, so alluring. Lee's group in some way offered that exotic alternative to the bored and restless young American Christian. We were discontented, and "seeking"; yes, but seeking what? Quote:
But actually, that is very Asian: the Maximum Leader is unquestioned. To Asian culture, unquestioning obedience is necessary for stability, and harmonious functioning of society. Look at Singapore, for example: it's not communist at all, and is a very impressive place. But it's highly regulated - they have a different idea of "freedom" than we do in the west. To them the system comes first. To them, without the system you have nothing. So freedom is only what you get from the system; it is not an innate right. If the system is functioning well, and it gives you some human right, then okay. But if the Singaporean system decides that something like "freedom of speech" is a threat to the stability of society, guess what? No free speech. Lee's system was derived from that culture, and to some degree reflected its cultural roots. But since he assured us it was "heavenly", we took it.
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06-27-2014, 05:38 AM | #100 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But we can decide for ourselves what is truth. And if the system tries to get us to reject the truth we can reject the system.
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06-27-2014, 09:17 AM | #101 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-27-2014, 09:39 AM | #102 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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06-27-2014, 12:07 PM | #103 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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That I, and any of us, are not always and completely righteous is a given. But whether we are or are not righteous is not a matter of feelings. It is a matter of fact. The best among us will reach the end of this part of our experience of the kingdom without ever being 100%, all the time righteous. But dismissing the righteousness we do exhibit and experience as "not of God" because we aren't as good at it as He is misrepresents things. While there is an argument that we are not righteous until we are 100% righteous, at the same time, we are called to fulfill the righteousness of the law. In this lifetime. So it must be that what we do fulfill of righteousness is righteous despite the fact that we are not 100% righteous. If we are righteous, it is not us but Him. The only true righteousness is His righteousness. If you think that we have to be 100% before it is his righteousness, then I do not know what scripture you subscribe to. Mine says to "just do it." There are others who clutter their version with footnotes that suggest that we not bother trying until it feels right. Or to forget about reckoning yourself dead to sin because it is hard. Studies have shown that the mental aspects of emotional and physical pain are very related. They also show that we notice and remember what is wrong or bad much more than what is normal and good. So it might be that unless we are clinically depressed, feeling bad could be a choice rather than something concrete. I did not go through that to say feelings are irrelevant. But feelings that are not clearly tied to specific things that legitimately should create those feelings may be telling us something that is not true. We become euphoric because a group gets whipped into a frenzy. As a result we are convinced that what we hear at the time has to be right. It is associated with euphoria. On the other hand, we get taught to feel bad when anyone mentions certain things — religion, clergy, communion (rather than Lord's table), "going to church," "Sunday" — and if they say it in a meeting, the groaning from some becomes a groundswell to drive out the heretic, or bring the wayward member back to their senses and shut them up. Surely if we cut someone off on the road we should feel bad about it. we may not have the opportunity to stop and repent to that person, but we should at least repent to God. But that does not make every case of "feeling bad" into a spiritual problem. Neither does it make every case of feeling good into evidence of a spiritual mountaintop. And it does not mean that a period of days or even weeks or months in which we do not experience some kind of emotional high or other thing that we identify as a sense of the presence of God means that he has left us. Where can a go from your presence? If I ascend to the heavens, you're there. If I make my bed in Sheol, you're there. Despite my admitted lack of mastery of much of anything, I believe that it is in the realization of the presence of God without "feeling it" that causes us to act as if we are children of God without having a feeling about it. To obey because we know we are called to obey. To stop hiding behind Lee's nonsense that if I don't feel it, I shouldn't do it because it somehow turns from being out of grace and into duty. You may not think of it as being from Lee, and surely there are others who teach similarly. But it is wrong. Jesus did not tell the 11 to go and disciple, baptize, and teach them to obey when they have a feeling. I think that teaching such a thing would get you "least in the kingdom" status (Matt 5:19). Guess what. We have a duty. It was not put upon us before grace came to us. But even the grace teaches us to obey. Stories about "waiting for dispensing" or "premature light" are cop-outs for those who don't want to at least try and fail. Better to try and fail at obeying than to just say "I knew I couldn't do it, so I didn't even try. I buried the little will-power I might have had in the sand with my one talent."
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06-29-2014, 03:49 AM | #104 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
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06-29-2014, 07:21 AM | #105 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
To all you people who actually know the mechanics of how the editor works here. Specifically, what's the easiest way to break up a long post into smaller quotes so we don't end up having everything in the quote box like zeeks last post? I'm sure it was time consuming for him to change his responses to red font.
Anyway, the way I do it, is to take the first sentence or two that I want to quote, keep the beginning part that contains the posters name: [QUOTE=OBW;33180] then at the point where I want to end the quote I manually type in: [ /QUOTE ] (without the spaces though) I then type my response immediately after. Then for the next quote I simply highlight the word, sentence or paragraph(s) I want to quote and hit the quote icon, and then type m response to that particular quote immediately after. Then so on an so forth for the rest of the post. ***one thing people sometimes forget is to always remove the [ /QUOTE ] at the very end of the original or it will show up in your last entry of the post. I'm probably doing this the long way, so if anybody has a better explanation then feel free to jump in!
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06-29-2014, 11:33 AM | #106 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
Saves time.
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06-29-2014, 12:21 PM | #107 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Thank you UntoHim, Awareness. I have done it that way many times before. I think the black-red contrast makes the text easier to follow. As evidence to support that hypothesis, I present every Bible you have ever seen that had Jesus quotes printed in red and every other word in black.
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06-30-2014, 06:20 AM | #108 |
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The Last Apostle
Here is an interesting notion: "The last apostle". Where did that one come from? It reminds me of the Sunni's and Shia's, now at discord over whether Ali followed Muhammad. Who was the last prophet? There seems to be an inability to reach consensus.
So the Blended's say it was WL. Supposedly he was the last spiritual giant, and now is the age of small potatoes. No more apostles, no more big leaders. Now I wonder, from where in the Bible is this idea derived? The Brazilian Dong-ites and GLA Chu-ites perhaps believe that their man is the latest and greatest apostle sent from God. WL supposedly handed over the reins to Dong and/or Chu. That seems to have a little more biblical precedent than the Blendeds' position. I cannot see where the Blendeds come from, and that they're still pretending to be a Christian group. What kind of 'normal' New Testament church life pattern are they following? "Witness Lee is the last apostle"... What kind of idea is this? Is this Asian culture manifested as ancestor reverence, even worship? Maybe filial piety and obsequiousness are divinely mandated in Asian culture; as WL, the divinely appointed successor, once revered WN, now it's the "Brothers Wee" who collectively revere WL? I'm guessing here; I don't know. From whence came the idea of an unbroken line of apostolic succession, that then had to culminate, and even terminate, in the person of WL? I see nothing in the Bible remotely like this; it seems to be spun whole-cloth from the human imagination, and (perhaps) helped along by cultural pressures.
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06-30-2014, 07:56 AM | #109 |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Who needs the Bible when you have the oracle, that speaks straight from the horses mouth ... er, ah, I mean from LSM books ... and from some weird -- really out there -- extra-Biblical, "blended" bunch. (If'n ya search the KJV, from top to bottom, there's no occurance of the word "blended" anywhere.)
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06-30-2014, 11:32 AM | #110 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
David Shields, in 2006, writing on the idea of a "blended" group. Where was its origin, he asked. Howabout maybe in a despotic culture. So WL the oracle of God said that he was the latest in the and long line, who give the the "sheep" the straight skinny right from the throne. But the oracle also said that he was the last, that he looked and there was none qualified to follow in his giant footsteps. Who needs the Bible if you have God's oracle? If the oracle says it, well that's it.
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06-30-2014, 12:42 PM | #111 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Zeek,
In at least one point in your reply, you ask where it was ai thought you had said what I was talking about. Everything about my posts are not specific to the person they are responding to. Where I directly quote you and then I am probably speaking directly about what you said for as long as I am talking directly to that point. But points beget points. And ideas sometimes require more discussion than a three sentence reply. Once the discussion goes farther, we are often prone to speaking of "we" or "you" in generic terms, not meaning "you" specifically, but anyone who might read. If I say "if you thing about [idea] . . ." that is a call for whoever is reading to consider it. It does not mean that something they said is the source of the idea that I am now making. This is a little like a recent comment I got when I said something about "we" and someone seemed to take exception to being swept into some generic "we." Now, in that post, you said "Doesn't righteous just mean right? If so you are saying that every time a child tells the truth it is THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD. If so then, exhibiting THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD is an ordinary every occurrence. If not, then it is possible to be righteous and it is not HIM. Which is it?" (Before anyone comments on the section below, read the whole thing. If you chop my post into fortune cookies, you can make all kinds of interesting things out of it. But as a whole, it says something more cohesive. You may or may not agree with it, but it is not a collection of one-liners for scrutiny. If you find the whole to be faulty, then show me where it falls apart. But if you just start at the top and comment on each sentence or two without reference to the rest, you are not commenting on what I actually said. Just to some of the words that joined with others to say much more.) This, like another post I just read, is a matter of context. In a generic way, "righteousness" can be simplified to "right." But in the Biblical context, it is really more than that. Righteousness is not just the outcome, but the source from which it arises. It is also an attribute of the one who is said to be righteous. In the realm of attributes, there are many who are, at least for the most part, righteous. There are people in this world (without regard to whether Christian or not) who display outward evidence that they operate in human interactions in a manner that would be characterized as righteous. At least in major ways. But the other aspect of righteousness when understood in the Biblical sense is the source from which righteousness arises. Is it just an adherence to a code of conduct? Or is it something that is being enhanced, or spurred into action by something other than our own will? Surely, in some aspect what I suggested is to adhere to a code of conduct. I specified that we have been commanded to behave righteously and therefore should seek to do that whether we feel like it or can identify how it is that God is doing it in us and it is not just a matter of obedience to the code we have signed on to. And we have learned from certain people (Nee and Lee, for starters) that righteousness should come from within, not from without. But where does it say that? Where does it say that we will simply start being righteous if we have the right stuff within us? It actually does not. Instead it says that we are to obey. And obedience is something that Jesus commanded the disciples to teach. Must not be so automatic. Yet, for those who have "signed on" to salvation through faith, we do have a power within us to do what we might not have been able to do without that power. But nowhere does it say that this power is going to simply make it start happening. We have to actually do it. Whether we feel like it or not. Whether we understand how it is that we have the power to do it or not. I will confess here and now that I am not fully obedient in all things. But I can also confess that I know that there is something in me that gives me the way to do what I could not do on my own. Yes, there are still things that I could do before and I will continue to be able to do. That does not deny the power of Christ, or make that righteousness different. The source inside me has been changed. I still do those things, but I do them as a child of God.
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06-30-2014, 12:48 PM | #112 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
“Now when this people or the prophet or a priest asks you saying, ‘What is the oracle of the Lord?’ then you shall say to them, ‘What oracle?’ The Lord declares, ‘I will abandon you.’ Then as for the prophet or the priest or the people who say, ‘The oracle of the Lord,’ I will bring punishment upon that man and his household. Thus will each of you say to his neighbor and to his brother, ‘What has the Lord answered?’ or, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For you will no longer remember the oracle of the Lord, because every man’s own word will become the oracle, and you have perverted the words of the living God, the Lord of hosts, our God. Thus you will say to that prophet, ‘What has the Lord answered you?’ and, ‘What has the Lord spoken?’ For if you say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’ surely thus says the Lord, ‘Because you said this word, “The oracle of the Lord!” I have also sent to you, saying, “You shall not say, ‘The oracle of the Lord!’”’ Jeremiah 23:33-38 |
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06-30-2014, 01:38 PM | #113 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
Is that it? is that their only support for the Blended Brothers? And people, local churchers, are buying it? One verse is all it takes? With some convolution going on with what the KJV translates as "tempered?" Boy, they'll buy anything. I'm using eSword, and have like 29 translations (some of them in just Greek - but a lot of translations) and not one of them translates "συνεκέρασε" as blended. Strongs: to commingle, i.e. (figuratively) to combine or assimilate Maybe Lee should have used "assimilate." As in the Borg. The Assimilated Brothers - (The ASBs). "Resistance is futile."
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06-30-2014, 02:25 PM | #114 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
Frameable quotes for the next training!
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06-30-2014, 03:33 PM | #115 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
"Who needs verses when you have the oracle; the Minister of the Age." Or more appropriately, "Verses!?! We don't need no verses! . . . ."
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06-30-2014, 03:35 PM | #116 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
Think about what happens when the culture provides the vision. Then the Bible can become malleable, to fit its cultural constraints.
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06-30-2014, 05:59 PM | #117 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
I won't bother to analyze any more of your statements since you explicitly asked me not to. Suffice it to say the rest of your post is just so much equivocation. Righteousness is inward then it's outward, it's a source then it's obedience to a code, you have the "power" but you are not fully obedient anyway. I will be charitable and assume that you are not intentionally trying to obfuscate the issue. Nevertheless, your argument is too diffuse to be persuasive. It might help if you kept your posts short and to the point. Piling on words doesn't necessarily make an argument clear or coherent.
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07-01-2014, 06:26 AM | #118 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
Lee, on the other hand, said that his ministry revealed Jesus Christ and therefore the Father. And Lee's ministry also taught that much scripture doesn't reveal Jesus. (if you want, go through the Psalms and count how much he either ignored or said was "fallen" and "natural concepts".) So he effectively was telling us, "Who are you going to believe, my teaching, or the Bible?" I notice as well that when he used the Bible to support his arguments he called it the "pure word", and when it wasn't so convenient to his teachings he had less kind things to call it. So what kind of idea are we seeing manifested here in "God's oracle", and "the last apostle": one according to scripture, or one derived from human nature, and expressing its parent human culture?
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07-02-2014, 06:19 AM | #119 |
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The Apostle and the Oracle
There seem to be two key aspects to the arrangement of Witness Lee's Local Church hierarchy, and I'll capitalize them to avoid writing "supposed" or "so-called" before each use of the word. The first idea is of the Apostle. Today's Apostle is ostensibly the one most closely following the path of the original apostles, a la Acts 2:42: "And they continued steadfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the breaking of bread and the prayers." So we have Lee continuing steadfastly behind Nee, who also closely followed (largely through literature) Mackintosh, Panton, Govett, Pember, Darby, Penn-Lewis, etc. Plus Nee had fellowship with notables such as at the Keswick Convention, of Andrew Murray, Hudson Taylor, T. Austin-Sparks, etc. So Lee was the Apostle, after Nee, who was after Somebody; we assumed a lineage stretching back.
The second idea is of the Oracle. Without the Oracle to guide you, the uninterpreted Word is missing something. The Oracle gives you the vision to see the intrinsic light and truth contained in the Word. Without the Oracle's speaking, the Bible is just a book. Look at Christianity, for example: they have the Bible but little truth or light. The Oracle could even show us where the Bible had natural human concepts: where the Bible and the Oracle's teaching came into conflict, the Oracle's revelation always won. Where Bible and Oracle agreed, the Bible was indeed revelatory, but when they disagreed, the Bible was actually the concepts of fallen men. So the Oracle had determined where the Bible was to be spirit and life to us, and where it was merely dead letters, to be be ignored. The Oracle even revealed that eventually there's no Oracle! He'd looked high and low, and there were none of ability, so now the Oracle said that "one Apostle per age" was changing into "the age of small potatoes". There were to be no more spiritual giants. And we didn't need a Bible verse, chapter or book for this because it was from the Oracle. It seems as if our orientation, and vision, wasn't to the common Christian faith, nor even the "ground of the church". It was now to the Oracle, the Apostle, who was (surprise, surprise) the same person. The Apostle had invested the Oracle with authority, and the Oracle showed that the Apostle was God's man of the hour. Combined in the person of the Maximum Leader, the roles of Oracle and Apostle created an identity and orientation for the Party, the Collective, the State, the Church, the Body, or whatever you'd call it. This collective orientation is probably just the instinctive social aspect of our species, seen here in a rather pronounced form, and an Eastern-tinged variety at that! Remember what they told us: "Be absolute". Our Maximum Leader, who the Oracle assured us was just a humble servant of all, had become the orientation point of group identity and culture. So when the Apostle asked us, "Who among you have I controlled?", we immediately replied in unison, "Maximum Brother, you have controlled no one!" We were for the Party, the Collective, the State, the Church, not for the Maximum Brother! But the Party/State/Church/Collective needed the guiding hand of Oracle and Apostle: without this firm hand at the wheel, the whole thing would fall apart! We told ourselves, "Even when he's wrong he's right"; if we kept that firmly in mind, everything would be fine. Just obey the Maximum Leader without question. It seems now, looking back, that the Local Church movement was a ruse to get our humble servant installed as the Maximum Leader. And if you don't see it, maybe you're still wearing culturally-tinted eyeglasses which were installed free of charge, back at your neighborhood Local Church.
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07-02-2014, 01:03 PM | #120 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
Contrary, division is promoted is you take an "Us versus Them" stand in regard to the ministry LSM publishes. Contrary if you are on fire for the ministry, you will get a level of care more than those who are lukewarm or apathetic towards the ministry. |
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07-02-2014, 01:30 PM | #121 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
Quote:
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07-12-2014, 07:19 PM | #122 | |
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"In the divisions he sought us"
From the thread "in the divisions He sought us", which probably should have been appended to this thread.
Quote:
And then we had to deal with the consequences of what we uncritically had received. "What you eat, that you eventually become."
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07-14-2014, 06:14 AM | #123 | |
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Re: "In the divisions he sought us"
Quote:
Probably, what had happened was that, over centuries, the religious narratives had become "boiled down", and reduced, so whether it was the RCC/Eastern Orthodox liturgical cycle or the Fundamentalist Protestant "justification" dogmas, the story repeated in every Sunday morning service had become small and simple. Not much was needed to prop it up. The Bible we were familiar with was a small set of familiar tropes (the 4 gospels, a few epistles, some OT history types) and that was good enough, so we were told. "Believe and you will be saved", I heard over and over. Along came Lee with his Brethren background and we were snowed under with verses. Believe me, other than vague references to "tribulation", they never talked about the book of Revelation in my community church! Who wants to read about plagues of fire and boiling heat and vapors and smoke? We knew it was there, but nobody wanted to look at it. So a lot of the Bible was basically off-limits. Same with history. Everything that didn't fit into our parochial views was basically put in a closet and marked "do not open." Then Lee came along and seemingly blew everything up. In reality he just gave us a bigger box. But it was still a box. It still had edges, with an injunction "do not go beyond this point." It was actually still parochial. But we were told it was all-encompassing. No culture here; no self, no reaction to previous cultural modes. Just pure God. The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. That's why Lee & Co were able to keep the sheep in their fold: they convinced us that everything outside their box was "fallen human culture" and everything inside it was pure recovered truth. And even when it started to taste bland like cardboard, we just had to keep saying, "Yum, yum." Now, it's dawned on me that my own writings may reveal me as merely a "bitter ex-member", trying to tear down God's building. Maybe it is my wild, individualistic American culture reasserting itself. Maybe I'm merely reacting to what I see as Oriental cultural imperialism. But even if so, my Western cultural upbringing surfacing through my writings doesn't mean that Nee's Eastern culture didn't surface through his, right? I argue it's the opposite: that when we look at the world, including our religious world (ideas, behaviors, groups), we'll evaluate what is "normal" and "abnormal" based on culturally-derived norms. We'll filter our experiences for meaning based on culturally-instilled values. That proposition shouldn't be too shocking -- why do we think that Nee and Lee were somehow immune from this? We got tricked by a "confidence game", and it was effective because the one gaming us, our new Prophet, was more assertive than we were, and waved more Bible verses in the air than we were used to seeing. So we thought that we were submitting to God, but were actually submitting to the thought-world of our Prophet; but which world, we were constantly reassured, had no vestiges of fallen human culture! And when that fallen human culture did eventually and undeniably reveal itself, it was too late. We were in: we'd fervently declared that we were "wrecked" for Lee's Local Church, and felt that there was no longer any way out. Again, this view is a arguably a culturally-derived one. "The group is all and in all" is very Asian; the idea that the individual only has value in the group, by the group, and for the group. But if you don't recognize the source of that idea it will hold you and never let you go.
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08-23-2014, 12:10 AM | #124 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
"The Eastern Mind" might explain the prosperity of the local church in Taiwan and China, but not in America (other than Chinese Americans). Did you weep over one of American presidents' death? I bet not. Did I and the majority of Chinese and Taiwanese weep over Mao's and Chiang's death? I bet we did. Why so stupid? Don't know. I somehow wept when I heard brother Lee passed away in 1997, so did many of Chinese believers in the local church. (Maybe not Western minds, please correct me.) Chinese were oppressed by Western powers and Taiwanese were colonized by Western powers and Japan in the past. You might see that long term effects on the people. Then, the Lord came to rescue us and deliver us. The gospel was good and the church life was sweet, then, some things went south. When I became the weak one, when I can't fly in sync, when I can't swim accordingly, I left on my own. I don't blame them. I prayed that I will stay alive, not hit by a car or die instantly, to take care of my family. It is quite a sad story. |
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08-23-2014, 08:07 AM | #125 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Great to hear from you Eph ...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
http://www.lcinfo.org/?page=writings/media/obituary
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08-23-2014, 09:41 AM | #126 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Don't buy the lie.
The LSM loves all the "sad stories" of those who perish outside their flock. They want you to go down, because that lifts them and their gospel up. Don't believe the lie. This system is built on the concept of "other" which is actually a biological phenomenon but has been well-honed in Asian society. The system requires a "sad story" periodically to make it work. To do this someone needs to be designated as the "other"; it could be Max Rappoport, Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, or yourself. Or Titus Chu, Dong Yu Lan, Steve Isitt, Bill Mallon, John So, The Bible Answer Man... can I stop now? Can we see the pattern? Then the bad sheep, the newly-discovered and announced "scapegoats", are publicly "flogged and executed", to keep the other sheep inside the pen. So their narrative needs you to #1 be pushed out, and #2 to come to a bad end. They don't want you to be saved. Their institutionally-biased narrative forgets the sacrifice of Jesus on Calvary, and so they tell one another, "It is necessary for one man(or woman) to perish, that the group is saved." So they pick on yet another scapegoat. Their system of "social harmony" needs it. That's the opposite of Jesus' way. In the Jesus system, the Shepherd leaves the 99 and goes to find the lost sheep. Then the other 99 celebrate when their brother is returned to them. But in the LSM system, occasionally one sheep has to be publicly whipped (metaphorically speaking) and turned into a "the other" to keep the remaining 99 well-behaved and compliant. So their narrative structure, of "Us" versus "Them", wants you as the "other" to suffer and eventually to be destroyed. Don't buy into the lie. Don't offer yourself on their altar. Actually, if you want to look at it that way, everybody has a sad story: you, me, and Witness Lee. All of us, I cannot overstress this, all of us, were bad sheep who went astray. Only Jesus made it back to the Father. Christ is the victor. There is only one name by which we may be saved. Keep your eyes on Jesus, and keep your heart fully engaged in pursuing Him. Don't be distracted by anything or anyone else. Everything else is a trap. Jesus presents you with the way home to our Father in heaven. This earth is not your home. "In My Father's house are many, many mansions". There is one waiting for you. That is why you wrote your comments. That is why you are going on. Because you believe it. As Jesus said, "Where I am going, you know the way." This is the gospel story.
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08-23-2014, 11:38 AM | #127 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But I noticed certain warning signs that Nee's "Normal Church" life was merely human culture. 1. The exaltation of one person. I was at the Anaheim meeting hall and saw Chinese visitors posing next to Witness Lee's leather chair. Like it was a shrine. 2. Despising the poor. Of course the poor are despised everywhere but at least we in the West pretend to care. Jesus certainly cared. The Local Church way was, "Too bad for you." This, to me, is very Asian. 3. The Group triumphs fully over the Individual. Again, this has inroads everywhere but in the West we have the idea of individual human rights, even though we can't always follow it. 4. Order over freedom. Very similar to number 3, except this is in behavior. In the Lord's Recovery, you have complete freedom, as long as everything that you do is for the building up of the Group. And the Maximum Brother has told us what is for the building up of the Group. 5. Constant fighting, with "us" versus "them". This is a basic principle of much social organization. Without a "them" there is no "us". And the two are usually antagonistic. This is clearly fallen, and not exclusive to Asian culture, but in the Lord's Recovery it was filtered through Asian social expression. Quote:
My main point of starting the thread was that a lot of what we thought was a biblically- and scripturally-based "Normal Church Life" was really filtered through a human culture. But we didn't see it, so we took it as if it came from heaven. Yet all of the "storms" and "turmoils" and "rebellions" show us otherwise. "By its fruit a tree is fully manifested." For example, the idea of "losing face" was clearly and repeatedly manifested. When Max Rappoport found Philip Lee misbehaving, Witness Lee couldn't be allowed to lose face. That would undermine the whole social order. Likewise Titus Chu could not lose face to Benson Philips. So yet another "storm" would break out. So a "natural" force is really controlling what we are told is the "divine order".
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08-23-2014, 09:22 PM | #128 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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4. Order over freedom. Very similar to number 3, except this is in behavior. In the Lord's Recovery, you have complete freedom, as long as everything that you do is for the building up of the Group. And the Maximum Brother has told us what is for the building up of the Group. Gradually, I tell myself that if I work for a company I have to obey the rules and follow orders. When I can't handle it anymore, I quit. Is it a common practice both in the West and the East? |
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08-23-2014, 09:51 PM | #129 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-24-2014, 04:51 AM | #130 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Matt 10:25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 "It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant,…" See also 1 Peter 5:2 shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; 3 nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. The social order of the Local Church is a human order, with an Asian flavor. But we were told it was a divine flavor so we ate it as if it were manna from heaven.
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08-24-2014, 04:58 AM | #131 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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As I wrote earlier, Western culture is not necessarily better, or superior, to Eastern. But the Lord's Recovery's disregard for the poor clearly displays its Asian cultural origins, and thereby subordinates both its Christian heritage and the words of scripture, to its organization-building scheme. "Don't waste your time" on the poor, was what we were told in the FTTA.
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08-24-2014, 05:47 AM | #132 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Maybe Aron can answer this question for us? |
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08-24-2014, 07:11 AM | #133 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I read it anyway. Actually, I ran to it faster than Eve ran to the forbidden tree. And yes, there's a serpent in that paradise. I feel I should tell you. Watchman Nee was a man, a human, just like you & me. And yes, he was deified in Shanghai. Like Lee was deified here in America. Why we have to deify men is beyond me. I guess we don't like who we are, so we hope that if other men can be deified, so can we.
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08-24-2014, 03:43 PM | #134 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Maybe there was an inward, subconscious desire to show up the West, who had oppressed the East during the 19th and early 20th centuries. The ancient cultures wanted to demonstrate their validity, if not superiority, and Nee et al were supposedly the chosen vessels. Naturally Nee & Lee would never say this, but like I said look how quickly the Little Flock morphed from an indigenous, “local” movement, to one which was consolidated, centralized, and exported abroad. The imperialist, or "dominant" pendulum began to swing from the West back to the East. Quote:
James 2:2-4 For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in dirty clothes, and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool," have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges with evil motives? This may explain why the Little Flock movement and organizational/social structure has resonated more strongly within Eastern societies than in the West. Because to Western culture it is peculiar and unfamiliar, and to the Eastern mind it is comfortable, and familiar. Number One, don't waste your time on those who have no means to repay you. Ignore them; forget about them. Number Two, focus on those who are "good building material", who will make our society (i.e. the Lord's Recovery) prosperous and strong. Number Three, obey without question; this is essential to effective and harmonious social functioning. These kinds of ideas echo their source, or parent, Asian social/cultural systems.
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08-24-2014, 09:39 PM | #135 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-24-2014, 09:56 PM | #136 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-24-2014, 11:03 PM | #137 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Actually the good one, as to Nee's book, The Spiritual Man, was the remark that, yes, there's a serpent in that paradise.
The serpent in that book is/was Jessie Penn-Lewis. There's claims that he, Nee, pretty much got the book from Lewis, claims of plagiarism even. Jessie taught that Christians can be possessed of demons. That's why, I suppose, I was told that some brothers had become demon possessed from reading TSM. If you ask me, and I have good off topic reasons for thinking this, Jessie Penn-Lewis was the demon, the serpent, in Nee's TSM paradise. At this point, 1920s, we're at the West coming to the East, and bringing it to Nee and Lee. This was actually the point when syncretizing between East and West began, and a new Christian hybrid was born, that deformed both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee into Chinese Minister's of the Age. Every paradise has a serpent.
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08-25-2014, 06:13 AM | #138 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Now, this may seem like pretty flaky conjecture, but I still find it more satisfying than Tomes' work, which merely demonstrates stuff like Lee's plagiarizing, and his crude and amateurish etymology, but never addresses the elephant in the room: why did so many of us completely give our lives over to this man's ideas, and allow our consciousnesses to be totally subsumed by his? What is behind that?
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08-25-2014, 06:27 AM | #139 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So did an Asian-flavored variant of this make its way, via Lee, into the USA & S. Cali in the early- and mid-60's and create a kind of mass hysteria, subjectivist "primal scream therapy" charismatic phenomenon? I don't know; I wasn't there, but some of its effects I still felt 10 years later when I arrived. The sort of 'elevated sensations' phenomena was very prevalent, and pronounced, and you'd become susceptible to whatever was shouted from the podium or the seats. You were expected to chant or scream the latest slogan, and let it flood your consciousness. The second thing about Penn-Lewis that I find interesting is the "Jezebel" idea. It seems to be a topic that no one wants to touch, at least in a balanced way: the ability (i.e. weakness?) of women to be channels or vectors of instability. I say this here, particularly, because as I have noted, Nee & Lee made a big deal out of being influenced by several women's ministries, yet no woman could so much as speak (i.e. teach) in Lee's meetings! The only "functioning" women that I'm aware of were Jane Anderson & Sandee Rappoport & a few others, who merely had the temerity to try to privately counsel people, and help them. You know, shepherding, etc. Care. This was termed a "sisters' rebellion." Yet in addition to Penn-Lewis, others like Margaret Barber, Peace Wang, Dora Yu, Ruth Lee, were publicly waved as "early pillars" in the historical rise of the Little Flock. So there is clearly some tension there in the narrative, and some glaring unresolved contradictions, but since this is a "lightning rod" issue it's hard to approach. And to do so through the "Asian cultural lens" that I present on this thread makes it even more challenging. I don't have any ideas here, and won't even try my "flaky hypotheses", which may insult everybody involved, to no benefit. But it's an obvious issue in the Lord's Recovery discussion.
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08-25-2014, 06:38 AM | #140 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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From the "Biographical dictionary of Chinese Christianity" web site. So Nee had an "extensive literature ministry", according to this site, in which he "did not make clear" all his sources... sound familiar? http://www.bdcconline.net/en/stories/n/ni-tuosheng.php
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08-25-2014, 07:54 AM | #141 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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To "shoot at" the maximum leader would bring condemnation and excommunication, but for the maximum leader to take aim was to be expected by all. To take a direct hit was simply the means to "take the cross" and be perfected. To refuse was the ultimate failure, with all your friends abandoning you for looking back after you have put your shoulder to the plow.
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08-25-2014, 10:06 AM | #142 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I plead that I was young and dumb ... and seeking God. Then I came to a local church, went to a Lee conference ... and got the "vision." Not realizing that the vision was an artificial replacement for God, and that it was a mirage.
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08-25-2014, 11:10 AM | #143 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Quote:
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08-25-2014, 01:21 PM | #144 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-25-2014, 03:35 PM | #145 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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It was indeed impressive, coming in from the outside, and seeing a well-oiled machine in which everyone is rabidly shouting agreement with the latest directive from headquarters. But then you'd hear someone mentioning a "rebellion" or a "storm", and when you'd ask what that was they'd look at the floor and say, "We don't talk about it." This kind of "perfecting" and its obvious side-effects went against the scripture, against common sense, and most importantly against our own consciences, yet we took it, and came back for more. If this is not fallen human culture successfully masquerading as the way of eternal life, what is? Amazing, in retrospect, that so many people got so deeply taken in by this. If I wasn't there I might say they were without discernment, etc. But I was there, and that seems like an awful lot of people lacking discernment, and ignoring their consciences.
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08-25-2014, 08:42 PM | #146 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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That defined me. And perhaps you. It also had nothing to do with our innate intelligence. And this is why I place nearly all the responsibility on leaders like Lee and Chu and the Blendeds. They all knew better. We did not because we were young. They actually were wrongly calibrating our consciences. Young believers really need leaders who will help them to properly calibrate their consciences in the ways of life and righteousness. This is the healthy pattern we see in the scriptures. And this is why I am so thankful for leaders like John Ingalls. They spoke up against all odds. They were willing to risk it all to be faithful to their conscience.
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08-25-2014, 09:24 PM | #147 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So I'd like to ask western minds the same question as Aron did above. Why? Furthermore, if not cultural, then? If we can answer it, we might help christian believers who are not suited to stay in the local church to live a healthier and happier life. |
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08-25-2014, 09:42 PM | #148 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-26-2014, 06:38 AM | #149 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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We wrongly calibrated our own consciences, with the help of our new masters. We accepted the path; we chose it. Yes, we were ignorant. But we still made a choice, and had to live with it. I understand your point as well, and Jesus also referenced this, but the only way to get off the path is to accept responsibility. I sat in the meetings while ritualized public shaming was going on. I didn't recognize the Asian "losing face" and "saving face" phenomenon for what it was, but my conscience was indeed bothered. Yet I stayed. And that goes for the rest: ignoring the poor and weak, elevating a man above the flock, etc. etc. We accepted a fallen human culture as our own, because it was new, and different, and we'd been convinced it was scriptural and divine. Even when our consciences were troubled we kept telling ourselves it was the normal church, and was heavenly. Quote:
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08-26-2014, 06:46 AM | #150 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Christian leaders, more than any other on earth, must take a stand for God's righteousness and holiness, in order to properly shepherd the children of God. This was the biggest failure of LC leaders.
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08-26-2014, 07:15 AM | #151 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Beware of someone who teaches you that everyone else is wrong except them. Once you accept a ministry based on the judgment and condemnation of others, and this ministry begins to abuse you, then where can you go? If accepting a ministry means burning all your bridges with everyone and everything else, beware. Beware of a ministry that elevates one person above everyone else, and that elevated person is not named Jesus Christ. Only Jesus Christ has passed through death and been given glory. Everyone else is waiting for the Bema, the Judgment Seat of Christ. Don't assume that someone among you is already fully transformed, and beyond error or reproof. Beware of a ministry that pretends everything they do is divine, and that there is no trace of fallen humanity or fallen human culture in their activities. Beware of a ministry that requires absolute obedience and subjection, and calls any hesitations, considerations or questions as being independent, divisive, and rebellious. Beware of a ministry that incessantly argues with others, and delights in pointing out the faults of everyone but them. They epitomize the parable of the splinter and the beam. Beware of a ministry that either adds to God's word, like the Book of Mormon, or disparages God's word, like LSM does with the Psalms and the epistle of James (among others). Beware of a ministry that is so subjective that it can tell you what is God's move and what is not. "Then God raised up Watchman Nee..." How do you know God didn't also raise up Joel Osteen, or Billy Graham? How is it that everything you do is God's move on the earth today, and everything else is the vain works of fallen men? Beware of someone who merchandises the gospel, and makes buying books, CDs, DVDs, conference tickets, magazines, pamphlets, and posters equivalent to partaking of and accessing the divine reality. How much money did Jesus make for his teachings? And when Paul collected money it was for the poor saints, not for his ministry. Beware of a ministry that puts pressure on you to accept them and their ideas. Who did Jesus pressure to be his disciple? No one. If you give in to such pressure, thinking that they will be pleased, later they will pressure you to renounce your family, attend the full-time training, relocate to Sweden, serve full-time, donate for the latest building project, etc. Proverbs 30:15 says, "The leech has two daughters. 'Give! Give!' they cry." You think if you give in to them, they will be satisfied? They will never be satisfied. Beware of a ministry that gives you a skewed version of history. Beware of a ministry that says that we were all in darkness until Brother X or Sister Y came along and brought us to God's revival, restoration, recovery, etc. Beware of a ministry that says nobody could intrinsically understand the Bible until Brother X or Sister Y got revelations and now it is all so clear to us. Beware.
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08-26-2014, 09:06 AM | #152 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Beware of a ministry that grows by proclaiming a return to the pure word of God, only to later warn us of the dangers of returning to the pure word of God without his own interpreted version.
Beware of a ministry that must slander all the prophets God sends to them in order to maintain their own pristine image. Beware of a ministry that sells grave sites in the "Garden of Transformation" so that members can spend their future next to their leader. Beware of a ministry ... To be cont
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08-26-2014, 10:17 AM | #153 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Don't trust your spiritual care to someone who places someone or something as equivalent to Jesus Christ. There is one God, and Father of all, and there is one Lord of all, Jesus Christ. There is only one way to the Father, and that is the Lord Jesus Christ. There is no equivalent to Jesus Christ: the Church is not the way. The ministry of the age is not the way. God's current move is not the way. The ground of oneness is not the way. The Body of Christ is not the way. Jesus Christ is the way.
If you go to a meeting and the focus of the meeting isn't Jesus Christ but rather it is "discipling of the nations" or "the building of the Body" or "the consummation of the age" or "the current speaking of God for His intensified move" or "the intrinsic nature of the Body of Christ", beware. When the the meeting begins to introspectively focus on itself, rather than on its Savior, Shepherd, Teacher and Friend, then it has clearly been distracted away from the heavenlies where Christ is, away from its Head, and has lost the way. Jesus Christ is the way.
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08-26-2014, 10:21 AM | #154 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Don't trust someone who tells you that the "group" is the only way to be saved. This is to repeat the RCC's failure. Haven't we learned anything? Didn't we already pass through the Protestant Reformation? I thought we were beyond this.
"Nobody who's left the Lord's Recovery has ever amounted to anything." Thank you for informing us of this, O omniscient one.
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08-26-2014, 04:40 PM | #155 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Beware of unhealthy ministry, con't:
Watch out for someone whose ministry regards their flock, their readers, hearers, and disciples, as "mooing cows" and other less-than-salubrious terms. Once I felt that the Lord communicated something to me, rather pointedly, and told me that the distance between myself and the dullest laggard, in terms of intelligence, wit, and capability, was much less than the distance between myself and God. If I desire God's mercy, shouldn't I also be merciful to those around me? What profit is there in categorizing other people so uncharitably? Don't we see the vast gap between ourselves and God? Then why presume some vast gap between us and our fellow heirs of faith, those who abide here in the flesh with us? Lee let us know on no uncertain terms, and repeatedly, that we were dull, and unwitting, and failing take advantage of his vision, insight, teaching, and gifts. Why, if we'd just do exactly as he'd told us, a revival would sweep over the globe and the Lord would soon return! But no, unfortunately we were too poor and miserable to grasp what he'd placed front of us. I think Jesus referred to such ministers as shepherds who beat the flock. Be wary -- this minister's assessment of ones who don't match their standard is perilously close to the person who says to others, "Raca", or "You fool!".
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08-27-2014, 07:34 AM | #156 | |
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08-27-2014, 07:58 AM | #157 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Does the fact that God is sovereign mean that everything is designed and willed? Or rather that God has the ability to control when he wills? Does the fact that everything we go through has an impact on our lives in the kingdom mean that we were ordained to go through those due to His sovereignty? Or does it mean that God will use whatever is provided to shape us? I note that the "work together for good" is tied to "to those who love God." Does this mean that God ordains the "things" or that he works in and through the things for good? And it says all things work together, not all things are ordained by the sovereign hand of God to work out for our good. I do not have a problem with God for allowing bad things to happen to good people simply because he does not simply ordain everything. I do not diminish God if I am not on board with every declaration that the thing that just happened (won the lottery or lost a child in a horrible way) is declared to be God's will. I think we are too busy trying to make God out to be in charge of everything. If that is the case, then free will doesn't exist and the existence of evil is truly His doing. And I do not believe either of those. He is sovereign. But he is operating with restraint in this world during this time. Life happens. For those who love Him, who are called according to his purpose, he will work in all of the circumstances for our good (whether or not we understand how). I do not know the answer, but it creates for me a question about God willing any of us to become part of something as corrupt as the LRC just so we would have these experiences. I am beginning to think that God may not necessarily will that we did it, but is going to work with it since that is what he has been given to work with. In other words, I am not sure that I can find a positive reason for having become part of the LRC. Not sure that it is what God really wanted. Only evidence of how God worked with and on me during that time and afterwards as I have come to grips with the havoc it generated in my life and the lives around me.
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08-27-2014, 08:36 AM | #158 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
So that you could hone your writing skills on this forum!
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08-27-2014, 08:43 AM | #159 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So he then condemned us all for all our deficiencies in carrying out all of his failed programs. Does that not define hypocrisy? Or was that insanity?
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08-27-2014, 09:01 AM | #160 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Not really a good reason. I would much rather be discussing the Evangelical errors of focus on the "decision." The Great Reversal. The thought that our witness is about evangelizing rather than living righteously. About what we say rather than who we are. That service for God is about doing religious work.
That extemporaneous prayers are better than those provided through thoughtful consideration (Psalms and other written prayers). That may be ought to have a portion of our "worship service" in which we confess together. Maybe, just maybe the more liturgical groups have the content or worship down somewhat better than the evangelicals. (Maybe even the RCC to some extent.) We have turned salvation into the only thing required to then go out and preach the gospel. And we think that preaching the gospel is the only thing we are "sent" to do. So we despise ourselves for not feeling the calling to go to Kazakhstan. We don't have any appreciation for our calling to be Christ's hands and feet in everything we do. With or without religious/spiritual words being spoken. That would be much more appealing to me. This is a little bit of a mission to me. And maybe has become an addiction. I keep thinking I won't return, but I always do. But I get interested in less and less of what is going on. Not complaining about where the forum is heading. It just may not always be for me. I am a little beyond 9 years in these forums now. For my personal tastes and desire, the best has come and somewhat gone. I keep wondering whether I will just continually dabble in it, catching onto some particular thread on occasion, or just fade away.
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08-27-2014, 09:25 AM | #161 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
OBW, before you fade into the ether, would you please recommend some readings along the lines you mentioned in your last post?
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08-27-2014, 11:02 AM | #162 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Maybe you'll make "featured post" one day!
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08-27-2014, 04:16 PM | #163 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
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08-27-2014, 04:42 PM | #164 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Brian McLaren's A Generous Orthodoxy comes to mind. A lot of good issues bubbling forth from someone who would lead us to water everything down if given the chance. One of the primary theologians of the Emergent movement. (Not the Emerging, but the Emergent movement. If you don't know the difference, don't worry about it.) Mere Churchianity by Michael Spencer. Available on either Amazon or Barnes and Noble (or both) as an ebook. He is prone to hyperbole and paints a darker picture than is probably warranted, but worthy of consideration. Two books by David Fitch. He is a professor of theology at Northern Seminary (Chicago area). He is quite prone to writing like it is for study within the scholastic theological world, so sometimes uses a lot of excessively expensive words. But once you get through the words you don't understand, very thought provoking. I like that he speaks of the problems within Evangelicalism yet from the standpoint of someone that considers himself to be part of it rather than as a sniper from the outside. #1 (which I read most of several years ago) The Great Giveaway: Reclaiming the Mission of the Church from Big Business, Parachurch Organizations, Psychotherapy, Consumer Capitalism, and Other Modern Maladies. Actually got a lot of thoughts on worship from this one although it is about a lot of things, including expositional preaching (the staple of most Evangelical preachers).I used to study the Emerging/Emergent movements, but that has fallen to the wayside as the biggest speakers on the radical side (the Emergents) sort of shot themselves in the foot in recent years. That would be Brian McLaren and Rob Bell. Bell with his Love Wins and McLaren when he finally took a stand, I think in A New Kind of Christianity. I have read neither and probably do not intend to even think about it. I follow blogs by Scot McKnight (Jesus Creed), Chaplain Mike (Internet Monk. Oddly this was the blog of Michael Spencer until he died three or so years ago. It is now written by two or three regulars, mostly a guy who is a hospital chaplain.), Kevin DeYoung (at The Gospel Coalition — very "Reformed" and sometimes dogmatic about it). There are a couple of others that I visit occasionally for interest, but that I have some issues with generally. I also follow a blog by a guy sort of in charge of worship direction for a Baptist organization in the Midwest (not sure if it is SBC or some other Baptist group). Can't remember much about it to lookup right now, but it is not really in the area of the controversies. Despite my tendency for the logical arguments, I think that the value in apologetics is way overrated. Just too much thinking about stuff and checking off things on an "I believe that" list. Not enough rubber-hits-the-road emphasis on moving beyond that decision (i.e., to sanctification). Besides, I'm not sure how much you believe if you don't actually act like a believer. And people who don't obey aren't acting like it. (And that was pointed at me as well.)
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08-28-2014, 02:20 AM | #165 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
http://www.bdcconline.net/en/about/p...l/wrightdoyle/
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08-28-2014, 02:32 AM | #166 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
This thread reminds me of something I posted a few years back. Igzy and a couple others, as I recall, found it interesting. I'm sure many of you have seen it. It's a Nat'l Geographic documentary about N Korea, filmed a few years before Kim Jung-Il's death. 45 mins and well worth the watch. There were a couple of scenes in particular that gave me goosebumps. If I get the time maybe I'll track down the particular minute mark to look for.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxLBywKrTf4
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08-28-2014, 06:58 AM | #167 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Interesting post by Dave that I read elsewhere about Oriental spiritual development. "He who overcomes" in Asian cultural reading...
Quote:
Also, Quote:
"[Chiang Kai-Shek's] lifelong commitment to Confucianism makes some wonder whether his fundamental faith was more a matter of traditional Chinese ethics than Christian belief. Did his extraordinary self-control in public stem from dependence upon God, or upon the inner strength he had long learned to cultivate? In defense, many have argued that Chiang’s autocratic leadership style is simply the norm for Chinese, and can be found in some of the most outstanding Chinese church leaders even today; that he was surrounded by mortal enemies and spies, and could really trust no one; that his murderous purge of communists in Shanghai was undertaken only after his enemies had formed a rival government, committed atrocities and put a price on his head; that war compels one to make decisions that will cost many lives, in order to save more people; that he matured in his Christian character as he grew older; and that a Christian’s true heart can be known only to God. If his private diaries, public pronouncements, consistent support of Christian churches and foreign missionaries, and active involvement in the production of Christian literature which we have noted above mean anything, then we may perhaps say that Chiang Kai-shek’s Christian career represents the halting, stumbling, but steady pilgrimage towards the Celestial City of a sinner saved by grace." Again, I stress that we use culture as part of shared meaning and understanding. It is part of who we are. But Lee sold us a story that he and Watchman Nee were somehow transformed beyond human culture, and the religious society they founded was guided solely by the "pure word" and the Holy Spirit's revelation. Somehow Lee got beyond all that fallen human culture, and was leading us there as well. That is wishful thinking at best, and when continually pushed in the face of mounting evidence it becomes delusional.
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08-28-2014, 12:44 PM | #168 | |
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Re: The Last Apostle
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3 John 9-10 This pattern of Diotrephes seems to be the LSM way. |
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08-28-2014, 04:21 PM | #169 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Actually, when I look back, the real situation was hidden from us. Lee had just smeared the reputations of all those who attempted to fellowship with him about the direction of the Recovery. Ingalls et. al. in Anaheim were branded rebellious conspiratorial lepers when all they were doing was speaking their conscience as prophets of The Lord. Lee, on the other hand, had lost the anointing, and put the blame on all of us. He happened to use the topic of culture.
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08-28-2014, 07:29 PM | #170 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Some say divergent movement. I don't know but some might say I'm of the subvergent movement.
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08-28-2014, 08:57 PM | #171 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
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08-28-2014, 11:48 PM | #172 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I'm just tossing out some thoughts here. It can't be said that Lee was a Taoist. He was a Taoist like I'm a Southern Baptist. It's instilled in us, unconsciously, so to speak, or subconsciously, prolly, from birth. To say that we can just uninstall it, like it's a computer program or something, is a fallacy. The culture we're raised in becomes part of our being. It becomes us, and we become it. And we don't see it any more than we can see our eyeballs when looking thru them. We look thru our culture like that. I'd believe Lee's claim to be free from culture if he could have gotten free from his broken Chinese English. He didn't, and couldn't. So cuz he couldn't help it, Lee was a Taoist in Christian clothing. I wish I knew that back then. I should have. I was a fan of C.S. Lewis, who in his book "The Abolition of Man," speaks of the Tao: Quote:
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At least C.S. Lewis admitted openly his association with the Tao. Unlike Lee. Who snuck it in on us, importing it from China, into our soul in a hidden subconscious way, subliminally, if you will, culturally. Lee was a closeted Taoist. To bad. As it turns out, like C.S. Lewis, I love the Tao. And I believe that reading >The Tao De Ching< can improve the Christian walk. Did I get this love for the Tao subliminally, perchance, from listening to Lee for a decade? Maybe I should be careful. Being raised in a culture of the Tao didn't seem to do much for Lees' Christian walk. So maybe it's not all that. You decide. Taste and see that the Tao is good. Ha.
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08-29-2014, 12:13 AM | #173 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I have contemplated the Tao every day this year. Philosophical Taoism is central to such meager spiritual practice as I have these days. I believe the practice is compatible with the negative theology of the Western Christian mystics, a claim I can support with evidence if necessary. But I have no need to discuss Taoism here except as it pertains to the OP topic of this thread since, after all its origin is Chinese and it has had an enduring influence on Chinese culture.
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08-29-2014, 07:51 AM | #174 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Don't take sides bro Zeek.
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08-29-2014, 08:47 AM | #175 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
You believe in subliminal infecting and worming. There's a simpler, better supported explanation. I was already aware of Taoism before I joined the Local Church otherwise I wouldn't have observed the similarities between Lee and Taoism when I was there. And, even then, when Lee denied the influence of Chinese culture on his thinking, it occurred to me that he was probably simply not conscious of what seemed so evident to many others. I remember one brother who observed that the Eastern influence of the "Ministry" was what gave it its unique flavor as opposed to Christianity. Even though I wanted to disagree with him, I couldn't see how to refute it in view of the evidence.
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08-29-2014, 09:42 AM | #176 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Well you never told me about it. You left me in the dark.
But then again, I probably appeared too fanatical for the recovery, for you to bring it up. I was, in fact, fanatical. Or maybe we failed to have enough alone fellowship time together, for you to find opportunity to confide in me. Did you share it with Dave? Hey, Dave, were you aware of Lee's Taoistic cultural influence, back in Detroit days? Back to Zeek: "The Tao," I would have prolly responded, "Why go back to the Tao, when we're on the spearhead of God's Recovery," I'd likely say to dismiss your sharing of spotting Taoism in Witness Lee. (But like Eve to the tree, I would have run to the library (no internet back then, or even personal computers) to look into Taoism). What an idiot I was back then. And all the while, as you recognized, the Tao was being slipped into my subconscious, by a crazy little Chinaman. LSM doesn't even realize, to this day -- it has slipped past even Kangas' sharp mind -- that they're subliminally pushing Taoism by publishing Lee's books. But it's there. I should be appreciative. I'm very glad the Lord eventually led me to the Tao De Ching; where I can get the unadulterated Tao (if there is such a thing), a purity not coming out of Lee. And one more thing about the Tao. The Tao, and the Tao religion, are two different things. The Tao religion can take many shapes ; even, perchance, the shape of a Christian Recovery.
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08-29-2014, 10:43 AM | #177 | |||||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Well, while Lee's teaching may have been influenced by Taoism, he, of course, didn't endorse it. Quite the contrary what he said about it was usually either merely factual or derogatory. For example:
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Strange that he did not see the parallel to Christian doctrine of spirit. Quote:
Quote:
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But, he does sound more positive about Taoism here: Quote:
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08-29-2014, 11:48 AM | #178 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I once noted the gospel's similarities with the religions of the east, while reading a book on spirituality by Ralph Waldo Emerson, who was influenced by Oriental philosophy and did much to import it to the American continent in the early 19th century. Emerson was a Harvard Divinity School graduate who more or less renounced formal religion, and embraced the cosmos. I found his writings to be quite good, but none of it either nullified Christ, nor replaced it, but just sort of presented it in a fresh way. But of course Emerson's orientally-tinged cosmos missed the death and resurrection of Christ. In that it was certainly not Christian. I've several times here boiled down the philosophy of Christ to "do unto others as you would have God do to you" or some variant. That "what you do is what you get" philosophy is rather oriental, actually, and it Christian as well. Much hay has been made of the connection between Plato's philosophy and that of the NT, and I wonder why less is made of the similarities between Buddhism and Christianity. They both seem to me to say, "What you do is what you get." Of course the crucial difference in Christianity is that we believe that Christ fulfilled the Divine Mandate, not only for God but for us the fallen. Christ is the One whose death redeemed mankind, we who fell from grace. Now it is faith that begins the process of restoration. Yet, marching right behind that faith, is the irrevocable philosophy of, "What you do is what you get." Believe, yes; but believe and obey. Don't be a hearer of the word but a doer as well. Faith without works is dead. If you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. Etc. The main advantage of Christianity to Buddhism as I see it is twofold. First of course we have Christ to lead the way. Jesus the Nazarene is the irreplaceable Shepherd, Guide, and Friend, Teacher, Master, and Captain of the army of the Lord. Second, as Paul said, "I die daily"; we don't need to wait for the end of this life to see if we'll become a frog or a bat or a rajah. We can die today, and move "to the next level" so to speak. I find this preferable.
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08-29-2014, 12:01 PM | #179 |
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Another point on culture
Culture is the currency with which we interact. It forms the shared meanings that we use to make sense of the world and share this sense with each other.
In the NT we see Greek philosophy/mythology in several places. The gates of Hades were supposedly the portal to the realm of the dead. They were made of adamantine, the hardest substance known, and once the dead went past them they never returned. Jesus said that these adamantine gates could not withstand his ekklesia. If two or more of us agree on earth, the gates are broken and the dead are released. Very suggestive. And I believe that the hearers of Jesus would have this understanding when He spoke of the gates of Hades. The reference to Tartarus by Peter is similar. It is a word picture, with an already established meaning, which Peter knows that his readers will have. So what if it traces roots to Greek mythology? The point is that Peter has something to say and he uses the currency of the day. It is just like if I say "cool" and if it is the year 1950 that means temperature and in the year 1975 if means an exclamation of praise. Meaning is a culturally-derived process. It is shared. So there is nothing wrong per se with an American-flavored church group or a Chinese-flavored Christian philosophy. But let's call it what it is. Lee sold it as something else, and therein lies the problem. We spent an undue amount of time and energy in the Local Church/Lord's recovery pretending it was something that it's not. (Now, having said that, the influence of the British Christianity on the young Nee and Lee is of course enormous. But again let's face it and not just say something stupid like "Then God raised up Watchman Nee to restore the vision of the proper church" or some other dreck.)
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08-29-2014, 12:07 PM | #180 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
So Lee was a self-hating, self-loathing, Taoist/Buddhist.
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08-29-2014, 01:24 PM | #181 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Correction then : Lee was a everybody-hating, everybody loathing, Taoist/Buddhist, pretending to be a Christian above all others.
"Wise men say, only fools rush in . . ."
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08-29-2014, 03:13 PM | #182 | |
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Re: Another point on culture
Quote:
Not sure if this is a Chinese or British cultural phenomenon.
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08-29-2014, 03:24 PM | #183 |
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Re: Another point on culture
It's a blending, oddly enough.
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08-29-2014, 11:17 PM | #184 | ||||||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
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08-30-2014, 02:54 AM | #185 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I remember, as a kid, being told about a conference in which Witness Lee had admonished everyone that culture is a bad thing, culture separates us from God, etc. Apparently, the next day, after everyone had spent the evening feeling bad about their natural selves w/their natural culture, WL then advised that actually, we do need our culture. And that culture "keeps" us and God uses it.
Perhaps the same conf, Ohio? Quote:
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08-30-2014, 03:47 AM | #186 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
And what do you think, zeek? If not "subliminal infecting and worming", what do you believe re the power of ideas, esp subtle ones, instilled in a person's mind over a period of years/decades?
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08-30-2014, 04:55 AM | #187 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I do remember feeling pretty bad before I felt better. I somewhat remember culture functioning like the law as a "child conductor." After this time Lee found his stride with the "high peak theology."
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08-30-2014, 08:34 AM | #188 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So I don't deny that subliminal learning may take place. Nor do I deny the power of suggestion or even the effect of memes. The greater problem is that people accept propositions that are unsupportable by evidence or rational argument. I favor critical thinking, a skill that many adults are deficient in. Critical thinking should be taught to everyone in high school. But, it would be inconvenient because critical thinkers do not make docile consumers of whatever the dominant authority is putting out like we were in the local churches.
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08-30-2014, 12:15 PM | #189 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But looking back, because a Full-Duplex transmission was going on -- it is confusing to put it together -- the problem could have been me, or Lee. Or both. I wasn't seeking critical thinking back then. I was seeking God and His eternal purpose. And I thought I could get there by jumping into the subliminal waters that pervaded the milieu in the local church. Praying was a subliminal activity, especially group prayer. Pray-reading was subliminal, especially group pray-reading. Pray-reading was chock-full of subliminal messaging. Calling on the Lord was subliminal activity, especially group calling. Meetings were full of subliminal messaging. And I dove right in. Thinking it, diving into the subliminal waters, were working me into God and His purpose. What a delusion! And yes, I thought my way out of it. That's why I'm a critical thinker today. It's a defense mechanism against falling for anything like the local church.
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08-30-2014, 12:27 PM | #190 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-30-2014, 01:43 PM | #191 | |
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08-30-2014, 05:54 PM | #192 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-30-2014, 07:23 PM | #193 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Maybe irrational. But that doesn't convey the spook factor, working in the LC system.
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08-31-2014, 02:46 AM | #194 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Maybe this is the kind of thing zeek and awareness are trying to find an adequate term for? It's hard to put our finger on how to describe something that's hard to put our finger on, eh?
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08-31-2014, 07:17 AM | #195 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I have an easier proposition. If someone can show Lee giving props (respect, acknowledgment, recognition) to anyone except his MOTAs then my statement fails.
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08-31-2014, 07:29 AM | #196 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
By way of analogy, suppose you fall madly in love. Then your friends come by, offering diversions and amusements. Suddenly, you are no longer interested. Your friends are still the fine people you once enjoyed, but now your orientation is altered.
Buddhists may have Buddha to guide. That may be real. But the Christian has chosen Jesus. Had I been born elsewhere, I may have chosen differently; I understand. But I chose Jesus.
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08-31-2014, 09:05 AM | #197 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences. Coincidences and happenstance oddities are interpreted as omens or prophecies. And in his book "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China," he speaks to this thread: "Lifton also interviewed 15 Chinese who had fled their homeland after having been subjected to indoctrination in Chinese universities. From these interviews, which in some cases occurred regularly for over a year, Lifton identified the tactics used by Chinese communists to cause drastic shifts in one's opinions and personality and "brainwash" American soldiers into making demonstrably false assertions."
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08-31-2014, 09:16 AM | #198 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Right. He praised J. N. Darby, for example, as in Three Aspects of the Church: Book 2, The Course of the Church. He probably considered him the MOTA. I suppose that in Lee's mind the earlier MOTA's were his only peers.
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08-31-2014, 09:48 AM | #199 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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In reading a little about the history of Christianity in China, seems the Chinese have a real weakness for prophesies concerning the end times, and have been swept up in Christian movements time and again that traffic in them. (Why?) Well Nee and Lee must have taken notice. All Lee's MOTA's were to do with the Lord's Recovery: the final stage of the end times. And we had a weakness for it too. Ha!
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08-31-2014, 10:24 AM | #200 | |
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08-31-2014, 02:58 PM | #201 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
A process of theosis or divinization like that of Witness Lee or the Eastern Orthodox Church is central to the religious Taoism of the Chinese.
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08-31-2014, 03:17 PM | #202 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
Quote:
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08-31-2014, 05:08 PM | #203 | |
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08-31-2014, 07:09 PM | #204 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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The end of times prophecies have been used to deceive and fleece the sheep for a couple thousand years. Basically, life sucks, so we hope in something better after the end of time. And that's probably why those in China are an easy market for believing in the end of time prophecies. The latest, Harold Camping, now gone to not be with the Lord (just kidding), made over $90 million ... and he knew to reach out to the Asian mind to get it.
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08-31-2014, 07:45 PM | #205 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-31-2014, 08:49 PM | #206 | |
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09-01-2014, 01:50 AM | #207 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Martin Luther Count Zinzendorf Father Fenelon Madame Guyon John Nelson Darby Watchman Nee Witness Lee Nee and Lee, of course, were the heirs to the line of the Recovery. What I remember from childhood was laid out by Watchman Nee as far back as 1934 at a conference in Shanghai -- remember this booklet? -- What are We? (Of course, Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had not yet been added to the lineage by 1934.)
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09-01-2014, 02:00 AM | #208 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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http://www.ministrysamples.org/excer...-THE-AGES.HTML http://www.local-church-gods-revelat...hes/index.html Nee and Lee's claim to fame within the present-day "Lord's Recovery" movement is that they are the successors to this lineage. Plain and simple.
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09-01-2014, 02:10 AM | #209 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-01-2014, 03:08 AM | #210 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
That would require more reading ... Ha.
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09-01-2014, 03:47 AM | #211 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I think it goes without question in the minds of the LC faithful that Martin Luther was the first pioneer MOTA.
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09-01-2014, 09:35 AM | #212 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Because we're discussing the Asian mind and the Western mind, I think it might be helpful to compare Jesus to how they consider Buddha in China:
According to the Fo-pen-hing, when Buddha was about to descend from heaven, to be born into the world, the angels in heaven, calling to the inhabitants of the earth, said: “Ye mortals! adorn your earth! for Bôdhisatwa, the great Mahâsatwa, not long hence shall descend from Tusita to be born amongst you! make ready and prepare! Buddha is about to descend and be born!” The womb that bears a Buddha is like a casket in which a relic is placed; no other being can be conceived in the same receptacle; the usual secretions are not formed; and from the time of conception, Maha-maya [the virgin Mary motif - pre Mary] was free from passion, and lived in the strictest continence. M. l’Abbé Huc, a French Missionary, in speaking of Buddha, says: “In the eyes of the Buddhists, this personage is sometimes a man and sometimes a god, or rather both one and the other, a divine incarnation, a man-god; who came into the world to enlighten men, to redeem them, and to indicate to them the way of safety. “The miraculous birth of Buddha, his life and instructions, contain a great number of the moral and dogmatic truths professed in Christianity.” This Angel-Messiah was regarded as the divinely chosen and incarnate messenger, the vicar of God. He is addressed as “God of Gods,” “Father of the World,” “Almighty and All-knowing Ruler,” and “Redeemer of All.” He is called also “The Holy One,” “The Author of Happiness,” “The Lord,” “The Possessor of All,” “He who is Omnipotent and Everlastingly to be Contemplated,” “The Supreme Being, the Eternal One,” “The Divinity worthy to be Adored by the most praiseworthy of Mankind.” He is addressed by Amora—one of his followers—thus: “Reverence be unto thee in the form of Buddha! Reverence be unto thee, the Lord of the Earth! Reverence be unto thee, an incarnation of the Deity! Of the Eternal One! Reverence be unto thee, O God, in the form of the God of Mercy; the dispeller of pain and trouble, the Lord of all things, the deity, the guardian of the universe, the emblem of mercy.” The incarnation of Gautama Buddha is recorded to have been brought about by the descent of the divine power called The “Holy Ghost” upon the Virgin Maya. This Holy Ghost, or Spirit, descended in the form of a white elephant [a big white critter. Unlike the little white critter, a Dove]. The Tikas explain this as indicating power and wisdom. The incarnation of the angel destined to become Buddha took place in a spiritual manner. The Elephant is the symbol of power and wisdom; and Buddha was considered the organ of divine power and wisdom, as he is called in the Tikas. For these reasons Buddha is described by Buddhistic legends as having descended from heaven in the form of an Elephant to the place where the Virgin Maya was. But according to Chinese Buddhistic writings, it was the Holy Ghost, or Shing-Shin, who descended on the Virgin Maya. When Buddha avatar descended from the regions of the souls, and entered the body of the Virgin Maya, her womb suddenly assumed the appearance of clear, transparent crystal, in which Buddha appeared, beautiful as a flower, kneeling and reclining on his hands. Buddha’s representative on earth is the Dalai Lama, or Grand Lama, the High Priest of the Tartars. He is regarded as the vicegerent of God, with power to dispense divine blessings on whomsoever he will, and is considered among the Buddhists to be a sort of divine being. He is the Pope of Buddhism. Doane, T. W. (2011-12-14). Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions - Annotated and Illustrated (Kindle Locations 4935-4939). . Kindle Edition. Book available upon request. Note: There's not much difference between our present Dalai Lama and our present Catholic Pope.
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09-01-2014, 04:02 PM | #213 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-01-2014, 04:07 PM | #214 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-01-2014, 06:02 PM | #215 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
I found this.
"Watchman Nee: In the Old Testament both Solomon and David represented the Lord. The two persons represented the one ministry in two separate ways. In the Old Testament there were many ministries. After Moses, the judges were raised up. After that, there was Solomon, the kings, and the prophets. After the Israelites were taken into captivity, the vessels for the recovery were raised up. The Old Testament is filled with different kinds of ministries. In every age there is the ministry of that age. These ministries of the ages are different from the local ministers. Luther was a minister of his age. Darby was also a minister of his age. In every age the Lord has special things that He wants to accomplish. He has His own recoveries and His own works to do. The particular recovery and work that He does in one age is the ministry of that age." (Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 57: The Resumption of Watchman Nee's Ministry, Chapter 27, Section 1) |
09-01-2014, 06:13 PM | #216 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
And this.
"In the Old Testament both Solomon and David represented the Lord. The two persons represented the one ministry in two separate ways. In the Old Testament there were many ministries. After Moses, the judges were raised up. After that, there was Solomon, the kings, and the prophets. After the Israelites were taken into captivity, the vessels for the recovery were raised up. The Old Testament is filled with different kinds of ministries. In every age there is the ministry of that age. These ministries of the ages are different from the local ministers. Luther was a minister of his age. Darby was also a minister of his age. In every age the Lord has special things that He wants to accomplish. He has His own recoveries and His own works to do. The particular recovery and work that He does in one age is the ministry of that age." (Remaining in the Unique New Testament Ministry of God's Economy under the Proper Leadership in His Move, Chapter 1, Section 13) Last edited by HERn; 09-01-2014 at 06:15 PM. Reason: I wanted to give the reference. |
09-01-2014, 07:26 PM | #217 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-01-2014, 08:39 PM | #218 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Perhaps it's a sign of end times:
"For all the MOTAs prophesied until Lee." |
09-01-2014, 09:28 PM | #219 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Okay rayliotta and HERn has nailed it. Nee and Lee taught the succession of MOTA's down thru history.
The question I have is : Is this what God has been doing down thru history? Or is it just something made up in the minds of Nee and Lee? Bottom-line: Is THE RECOVERY real? Is it really going on? If so, looks to me like God is failing. Just look now. What do we have? We have no MOTA. We have the Blended Brothers. Does the recovery move down thru the MOTAs in history, and culminate, finally, in the last days, not in a MOTA, but in the Blended Brothers? Where's scriptural or historic backing for the Blendeds, in God's supposed recovery? Moreover, where's scriptural backing for the notion of a MOTA? If it is God's method, in the final days, why wasn't clearly developed and spelled out in the NT? Seems to me the this recovery notion has more to do with Nee and Lee being legends in their own mind, or MOTAs in their own mind, than anything God is doing. When in truth, at best, they were just Bible teachers ... among many.
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09-02-2014, 12:47 AM | #220 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I said, "Witness Lee taught the Biblical principal of the 'line of life' extending through the Old Testament, through the New Testament, and straight through Martin Luther, Darby, right up to Nee and himself. So how can we now be so sure that 'the age of spiritual giants is over'?" The response? A few full-timers and college students laughing out loud, rolling their eyes, and saying that I (me, rayliotta!) wanted to be the next MOTA. Apparently, the only reason why anyone would dare to ask, "Gee, how can we be sure which age is over and when?", is if they wanted to set the stage for their own ascension to spiritual giant-ness. So my response was something to the effect of, "What are you talking about? I'm just a 19-yr old college kid who doesn't even come to many meetings anymore! How could I possibly think I'm going to be the next MOTA?" To which they just rolled their eyes and laughed even more. I guess I was making their point -- he's a college kid, and a lousy brother at that -- yet he's still pining for MOTA -- wow!
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09-02-2014, 12:50 AM | #221 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Nah, I usually utilize the Vulcan mind-meld technique. Puts a lot of fingerprints and smudges on my laptop monitor, but it does allow me to absorb a lot of material quickly.
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09-02-2014, 12:57 AM | #222 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Could the Recovery ever have really gotten off the ground -- in the US, at least -- w/o this popular belief in impending Apocalypse?
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09-02-2014, 01:59 AM | #223 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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This showed, to the LC faithful, that your old man was not subdued, and was straining to emerge within the Hive. Which, of course, can never happen. So the answer is simply that the MOTA says he's the MOTA, which must be true because he's the MOTA. Get it? And if the MOTA says, "No more MOTA -- I am the last of the line" then that also is true, because he's the MOTA. Get it? Appealing to scriptures, or to your fallen human logic, will not work, because the MOTA has spoken. And asking questions, to the LC-indoctrinated, is the "fox tail" of your humanity emerging, and will only lead to ridicule and eventual expulsion from the Hive.
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09-02-2014, 02:09 AM | #224 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-02-2014, 05:35 AM | #225 | |
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I heard that after Lee passed away, saints were clamoring around the Asian world, "Née-Lee-Chu, Née-Lee-Chu." So there you have it folks! God had given us a MOTA. God had answered our cries for a king. But some rejected God's plan, and that's why today we have no MOTA. We had our chance, but quarantined him instead. It was Ron Kangas who was instrumental in terminating our lineage of MOTAs.
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09-02-2014, 05:43 AM | #226 | |
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09-02-2014, 06:48 AM | #227 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
It's a sign of filial respect.
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09-02-2014, 11:17 AM | #228 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Not fair. I'm tired of going around blind. I want to be a seer too. Give me filial or give me dinner.
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09-02-2014, 11:35 AM | #229 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
One thing about the filial obsequiousness thing; isn't this an Asian trait? The Good Son is the one who copies the Father? When you see Lee pushing Nee into the religious stratosphere "the Seer of the divine revelation" he, Lee, is setting himself up to be the next Seer of the age. Lee as Chief Cheerleader of Nee simultaneously set himself up as Heir Apparent. So his filial respect toward his spiritual forebear was concretion of a system in which he, similarly, would be held up by his own spiritual "children". I remember reading about where someone was struggling with the latest crazy directive out of Anaheim, and the LC True Believer response to them was, "Lee is our spiritual father. We owe him our lives."
Now, this is not restricted to the Asians; I think Jesse Jackson basically made his career by being MLK's chief flunky. Etc etc. But the oriental society has really integrated this deeply, and don't think about it or question it; it is just what they do. Again, I repeat that Asian culture is not inferior to the West. But it is not divine. Now, here's where it gets interesting: we have Jesus, who was actually the True Son, who glorified His Father God in heaven. And we are to follow Jesus. But it is not through human intermediaries like "the apostle of the age" or any other fallen, fleshly person. Not Luther nor Nee, nor whomever. Jesus is the one we follow. And yes we do have elder, more mature ones (thank God!!), but we don't make them the focal point of our journey. We don't deify them. We only imitate them as much as we perceive them imitating Christ, and no more. Because they also, truthfully, are at least partial failures, and prone to err. Lee's system nearly made Nee "Christ" to us. Supposedly Nee was so transformed as to be without failure, and we held that Lee as his Top Lieutenant was also similarly transformed. So the position which they created and occupied, that of Deified Father, is only for God, and now shared with His glorified Son. As an aside, I have previously pointed out that Chu and Dong were really the True Heirs of Lee, in that they elevated him as he'd done to Nee, while simultaneously positioning themselves in similar religious systems. I see it as quite oriental; feudal even. It is a kingdom, but the wrong one.
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09-02-2014, 01:14 PM | #230 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I'm having doubts that Lee ever read the Tao De Ching, but who knows? The Tao, Buddhism, & Confucianism are all part of Chinese culture, going way back before Jesus. I suppose Jesus as the Logos could have something to do with them. They've worked for the Chinese for millennia. But who could know such a thing? Lee calls it a Chinese proverb, so he could have picked up the principle of return by just growing up in China ... or from a fortune cookie. Ha!
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09-02-2014, 01:15 PM | #231 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Are you ready to eat hypocrisy for an entree?
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09-02-2014, 01:18 PM | #232 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Maybe as a dessert ... like Devil's food cake ... Ha!
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09-02-2014, 01:28 PM | #233 | |
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History shows us that all of Lee's "filial respect" for Nee had self-serving interests in view. While others, like the elders in the church in Shanghai, had the Lord's throne of righteousness in view, Lee sought a "bigger" prize -- being the next, and perhaps the last, MOTA. My comments about the Reverend Jesse are not suitable for a family forum. But it does surprise me that one who leans "liberal" would even think such a thought.
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09-02-2014, 06:36 PM | #234 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
More on WL saying WN was an important person for that age.
"When I was saved over sixty years ago, there were Christians all around me; yet I had no knowledge of God's move on the earth. I thank God that He gave me a heart that loves the Bible. I read it continually and even collected many reference books. Afterward, I became very clear that as a human being, I must be a Christian, and as a Christian, I must be in God's move. Therefore, I dropped everything and dove into the Lord's recovery. At that time, although I could not speak the message that I am giving this morning, the vision within me was very clear. I saw that there was the Lord's commission upon Brother Nee, which is the ministry. I also knew that Brother Nee was the one chosen, commissioned by the Lord in this age to bring in His recovery. I therefore recognized him as the leader in this work. (Words of Training for the New Way, Volume One, pp. 21-24, Witness Lee)" (Remaining in the Unique New Testament Ministry of God's Economy under the Proper Leadership in His Move, Chapter 1, Section 13) |
09-02-2014, 08:30 PM | #235 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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And: How did Lee know Nee was chosen? In the Baptist churches I grew up in all that was needed was a claim of "a calling," usually the pastors son, I spotted even when young. How did Lee know Nee was commissioned of the Lord in this age? Lee couldn't have known everyone in this age. How did he know if there weren't others commissioned of the Lord ... on the other side of the globe, in the west? Lee even couldn't have known if the Lord commissioned others just in the east. Looking back now, The Recovery looks to be made up, whole cloth, in the heads of Nee and Lee. And their idea that, the Lord started the recovery with Luther, and worked His way up to Witness Lee is ludicrous to me now. Even more, this is where the eastern mind may show to have a proclivity for MOTAs: that China has a long history, going back into the bronze age -- pretty much the same timeline as Judaism -- of lifting men up to be gods and vicegerents of God. Now I know, looking back on history, and at primitive human tribes, there's plenty of evidence that all human primates have such a proclivity. But we're trying to explain why Nee and Lee were MOTA inclined, and obsessed; why they were weak for megalomania? They didn't grow up in the west. So they didn't come up with the silly MOTA doctrine from there/here.
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09-02-2014, 10:11 PM | #236 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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"Filial" 孝順 is not a western concept, it is completely a Chinese one. It has 5000 years of meaning in it. So when I heard the new term "spiritual father", it caught my attention deeply. It gave you this feeling mixed of solemn, owe, fear, gratefullness, foreign, mysterial, etc. My heart was captured by the teachings of the "spiritual fathers." They are of Christ. |
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09-02-2014, 10:38 PM | #237 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-02-2014, 10:51 PM | #238 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-03-2014, 11:52 AM | #239 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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1. TC held WL as his "spiritual father". 2. TC did not hold RK & BP as his "spiritual fathers". 3. Therefore GLA split off from the LSM. 4. See also the Dong split in Brazil. Same dynamic. It wasn't about religion, but about cultural practice. The problem is that the "spiritual fathers" referred to by Eph are indeed of Christ. But they are not Christ. Watchman Nee is not Christ. Yet look at the Shouters movement in China today, some of whom actually hold Lee as "Lord Changshou", which isn't too far from how Lee held Nee in front of us. If Lee said Nee walked on water, we would yell, "Amen!". Here is a quote from ICA, on another thread: Quote:
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09-03-2014, 12:12 PM | #240 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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He still had no knowledge of God's move on the earth. Just the claims that his little sect was God's move on the earth. And if you are talking about the "acting god," then you might be right. He did tend to act like a god. And he did know his sect's movements on the earth because they did exactly what he told them to do.
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09-03-2014, 12:58 PM | #241 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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In an amazing sleight of hand trickery, Lee spun history to convince all of his Recovery faithful that he himself alone coming to the US was the reason for God's abundant blessing during this time. It's kind of like a surfer riding out a great wave, only to come to shore and convince us that he actually was the cause of that great wave.
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09-03-2014, 01:59 PM | #242 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Yes! The Jesus movement caught me! A kid on drugs who got saved! Read a booklet called the "Street People" where a guy in a beard was passing out newspapers was on front.
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09-04-2014, 02:46 AM | #243 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Forum?
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09-04-2014, 11:09 AM | #244 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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On a number of occasions when Lee had personal problems, he went to Watchman Nee for help. In one story Nee and Lee both blame themselves because Lee's wife thought she was going to die following an operation for which she was hospitalized. The moment Lee repented for his "inadequate consecration and in my love for the world", the enemy left his wife, and "the Lord gave her peace. " It's an odd story especially if one steps back from Lee's supernaturalist assumptions. Apparently, Lee's wife was delusional and was not actually going to die. Nee and Lee both thinking that they have sinned and caused the delusion. In the parlance of our time it was "all about them." In a more mundane reading of the facts, one might suppose that there was some kind of marital problem between Mr. and Mrs. Lee. Perhaps when he expressed his contrite feelings, she felt better. Of course, that would relegate the story to a domestic problem between to ordinary people in China. However, as we learn from Witness Lee, it was far more momentous than that. It was an episode that had cosmic historical consequences in the eternal purpose of the God in the universe.
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09-04-2014, 12:13 PM | #245 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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That last sentence is phenomenal Zeek. A real keeper. I know Christians now, today, that think ordinary -- what I would consider synchronicity's -- experiences have divinely orchestrated cosmic historical consequences. Two that I'm talking to these days are of the Pentecostal persuasion. One is a preacher. I've know him since kids. He's always been a narcissist ; always the life and center of the party. And he still is narcissistic. Only now he's the center of what God is doing. God is using HIM HIM HIM. Since I'm an old friend I leveled with him. I told him he's full of sh#t. So was Lee. And Nee. I'm telling ya, they made up The Recovery in their own heads. And then concocted a historical secession that led up to them ... them becoming the very center and heart of what God is/was doing. God was using THEM THEM THEM .... Me Me Me God ... make it all about me.
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09-04-2014, 12:39 PM | #246 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Zeek and I have discovered that LSM websites are shifty. That is, you can post a link, and it might work at first, but then something changes and the link no longer works.
So here goes a test: Zeek mentions : According to Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age. Here's the link : http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.c...=CMLPO9414R4IP Let's see how long it works.
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09-04-2014, 12:51 PM | #247 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I think the thing is that the LSM web site is designed to provide an entire book as if a single page. I note that if I start scanning through page ofer page, then hit the browser's "back" button, you are back at the LSM online books front page. Or the index of books to read. Each page within a book is provided as some kind of shifting content for a single web page. As far as the browser is concerned, you are just continually refreshing the same page.
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09-04-2014, 01:26 PM | #248 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Here are both of the stories I referred to as told by Witness Lee in Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age:
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09-04-2014, 01:44 PM | #249 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I just love this at the bottom: Downloading this material, even for personal use, is prohibited. Your IP address is ********* [11:56:57 AM (GMT -08:00), September 4, 2014]. I guess they're looking to sue, sue, sue. SOTA - Suer's Of The Age. Is suing an Eastern thing? It's certainly not a Christian thing, or a Biblical thing.
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09-04-2014, 08:36 PM | #250 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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It has long been my suspicion, that the leverage which Lee's sons Timothy and Phillip held over their father, was related to the passing of their mother.
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09-05-2014, 07:09 AM | #251 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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In light of recent comments concerning Chinese "filial respect," this paragraph from the above link really stands out. In the eyes of the Recovery "faithful elect," here Lee challenges the motives of every other potential Née biographer, even calling on the Almighty Judge to guarantee the absolute veracity of his book Seer .... His aggrandizing claims about himself and Née are almost sickening to read. Note that this book was released in 1991, just after squashing the so-called conspiratorial rebellion by Ingalls & Company, who demanded ministry accountability from Lee in the aftermath of numerous Phillip Lee scandals. Just as easily as he condemns the motives of those prophets sent by God to correct him, Lee claims heavenly endorsements for his new book. Since the biography was written 14 years earlier in 1997, Lee goes further to cite in another place how this action linked him with the Apostle Paul, who also waited 14 years before unveiling that he had been carried away to the Third Heavens. (2 Cor 12.1-6)
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09-05-2014, 10:00 AM | #252 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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That was for entertainment and fun, we could say, if it weren't for the fact that the stories all lead to Lee being God's not to be questioned authority on the earth.
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09-05-2014, 12:27 PM | #253 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-05-2014, 01:10 PM | #254 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Funny that Lee would endorse Nee later than 86 when it would appear that while he continued to issue his version of everything Nee ever wrote, he sort of seemed to suggest that it was better to just read his own books. Once Lee got enough link to Nee, he seemed to push him aside, resurrecting him in the abstract where necessary to reassert his lineage, but seldom referring to any of Nee's material. Even though the ground of the church lived on, Lee had written enough about it to no longer need to refer to Nee's writings as support. Lee was now established in his own mind as a standalone MOTA.
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09-05-2014, 09:42 PM | #255 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Of course, much later, I realized the abject hypocrisy of Lee's claims that he was "following brother Nee because he was the one who brought the recovery to all of us blind, mooing cows". Much (and by much, I mean MOST) of the teachings and practices in the Local Church today were invented out of whole cloth by Witness Lee. You will not find "calling on the Lord (oh Lord Jesus), or anything approaching "pray-reading", or calling other believers all sorts of derogatory epithets (blind, mooing cows, dead, etc, etc) in the writings of Nee. I'm not saying that some of the seeds of these unbiblical teachings and practices were planted by Nee, only that Witness took the errors of Nee and magnified them many times.
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09-06-2014, 12:02 AM | #256 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Aron started this thread for a reason and I hope that we will look into it further. Many practices might truly be derived from cultrual and ethnic upgrowings. Is it the "emperoric" mindset of ruling over his people but he is not aware of? In modern Japan, Japanese is worshiping their emperor as a god. The concept of mixing "emperor" and "god" together is prevailing in Japan. "Hand Pick" and "Father to Son" practice is no doubt an Asian one. Why did brother Lee pick the "blended brothers"? Who are these brothers and their background? Did he pick them to balance among their cultural backgrounds? Does financial play a part during the process? Why is it his sencond oldest son in charge of the LSM, not the others? |
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09-06-2014, 01:02 AM | #257 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Yes, it turns out there are. As Joseph Campbell points out in Oriental Mythology, in the Orient the ideal... Quote:
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09-06-2014, 03:13 AM | #258 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I would use, as an example, the culture of loyalty and filial respect as portrayed in The Godfather movies. (I don't use this example lightly -- I learned a lot about the culture of the Lord's Recovery from these movies. No kidding.) Think of Vito Corleone handpicking Tom Hagen (Robert Duvall's character) as consigliere. I remember being told as a kid that Andrew Yu was Witness Lee's "right-hand man".
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09-06-2014, 04:18 AM | #259 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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BTW, I just love the Godfather movies. |
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09-06-2014, 06:04 AM | #260 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
This quote is a real eye-opener, even for me, one who was active in the LC's for 30 years and studied them at a distance for another 10.
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Here Lee creates another "deadly sin" where the Bible has none: INDIVIDUALITY. To a typical member of the Recovery, it seems that here Lee sees something that the rest of us cannot see. Thus members are convinced that this is once again proof that Lee is the Oracle of God. Actually not. No one else "sees" it because it is not in the Bible. God never condemns individuality because He created us that way. Then why would Lee create such a new sin? Because then he can secure his power and control over others. Since he alone can "see" who is an INDIVIDUAL and who is not, he alone can determine who should be esteemed in his version of the body of Christ. This simple measure alone completely insulates his sphere of influence from all interference.
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09-06-2014, 09:35 AM | #261 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-06-2014, 01:37 PM | #262 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I remember the guy I was staying with (who's Chinese) making a comment, something to the effect of, that there was something wrong w/the American saints. I guess that's how people who stay deal w/the fact that so many people are leaving -- to assume that there must be something wrong w/those leaving. Couldn't possibly be that there are troubles within the group that are causing the exodus. Couldn't be.
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09-06-2014, 01:39 PM | #263 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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You do know that, don't you? You do know that, don't you?
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09-06-2014, 03:02 PM | #264 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 1 Corinthians 12:12,27 The Bible doesn't deemphasize individuality, but points out as individual members, we make up the Body. Whether it's philosophy or something else, there's a teaching the individuality must be suppressed for the good of the collective. Better description is a group-think culture in the recovery if you don't submit to peer pressure, you're being individualistic and doing your own thing. If you don't submit to "fellowship" given by the blended brothers, you're being individualistic and doing your own thing. In the blended brother's imaginative reality, you are trying to gain a following of your own. |
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09-06-2014, 03:26 PM | #265 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I was a true believer who tried to rid myself of individuality for years before I gave up on it. I am thankful now that I failed. If God created everything that is then God created me the individual that I am. A good God does not create bad stuff. If you believe that God is good then you can believe that you are essentially good too. Based on Biblical principles, I am using my God-given ability to reason and my individuality to express who I am. Nee and Lee were wrong about these matters. Their teaching was psychologically damaging to me and many others because it was untrue and contrary to life. I stand against these aspects of their teaching. I don't consider myself a rebel. I consider Nee and Lee to be in error on these matters and I submit the people that they have hurt over the years as evidence. The conception of humanity which is embodied in documents like the Declaration of Independence, U.S. Constitution, and the Gettysburg Address represents an advance which Nee and Lee did not appreciate or understand. It's a higher conception of humanity than theirs. We gave up our western heritage too easily for the ministry of Lee/Lee. Their conception, contrary to the claim that it was a "recovered item", was actually a step backwards into something barbaric. We were foolish to abandon our human rights for the Nee/Lee system. When I saw that the church authorities including Lee did not live by the standards that they required of the rest of us, I left. I should have left after reading the Jack Sparks' observation in The Mind Benders that Local Churchers were required to give up the normal use of our minds because it was true as a review of Nee and Lee's published works verifies.
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09-06-2014, 05:37 PM | #266 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
This issue of "individuality" has also been a struggle for me. Before I had any realization of what was really going on in the LC, I was convinced that I needed to rid myself of all individuality.
The more I tried to do this, the more frustrated I got. What I realized is that while some in the LC may have the appearance of not having their own individuality, it is all a pretense, an act that they put on. Once someone's time is completely occupied by the LC, individuality doesn't mean much because they don't have time to be themselves. That's what I think this teaching is really about. They don't want people having hobbies or activities that are going to "distract" someone from being 100% dedicated to LC activities. Of the Christians I know outside the LC, I haven't met any that are expected to spend as much time doing church activities as in the LC. In the LC it is highly looked down upon to have other interests outside the LC. |
09-06-2014, 05:56 PM | #267 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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09-06-2014, 11:49 PM | #268 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Truth is, I had no problem being part of the LC hive, as long as I believed I was in Gods' hive. It was when I discovered I was actually in a man made hive that my independence could no longer be held in check. Since leaving the LRC I've made it a point to be an individual, & independent. A fact that disturbs even our loving host UntoHim.
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09-07-2014, 01:13 AM | #269 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Quote:
http://ep.yimg.com/ay/stylinonline/s...-t-shirt-7.jpg
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09-07-2014, 01:29 AM | #270 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Is it too much of a stretch to suggest that the present culture of the Lord's Recovery is in many ways a "hybridization" of Chinese culture and Italian culture?
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09-07-2014, 02:25 AM | #271 | |
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09-07-2014, 08:47 AM | #272 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Unlike God we can't see into hearts ... or minds. But Asians and Westerners look differently on the outside, that we can see, so why not on the inside too, where we can't see?
That dismissing a common human moral core, of course, if such a thing exists. (I think it does.) Personally, I love the Asian mind. And Asian women (I married one - a Lee). Zeek recently quoted from Joseph Campbell, "Masks of God - Oriental." Long back I read the Masks of God "Primitive," "Occidental," and "Creative." I skipped "Oriental" cuz I knew it would be Campbell's best in the series, and was saving and savoring it. Well years passed. Many years actually. Then, a couple of yrs ago I got the itch for it again. I have the paper bound book, but wanted it for Kindle. I went searching for it at Amazon, only to find no such format existed. I'm a member of the Joseph Campbell Foundation so I emailed them about the series coming out in ebook format. Was told they were working on it but only had Oriental ready. Long, short, of it, they sent me a free copy. Long, short, of that, Zeek quoted from it. I say all that because Oriental mythology goes back before Abraham ; before the Bible was a thought in the mind of God, prolly, if that's possible ; before, definitely, the thought of a Messiah entered into the mind of man (improbable prolly, cuz man has always needed a savior - we're born needing a savior - our mother), but you know what I mean. As a result the Asian culture, history, mythology, and mind, is/are complex. It's been mentioned that Nee and Lee's theology, specially as to their Delegated/Deputy Authority, was primed by their Asian background. But actually, it was Christianity that was primed by the Asian background. Oriental mythology is replete with human gods, with virgin births, and much of the same symbols, found in Christianity. And that makes it all the more difficult to figure out how much the Asian mindset influenced what became know as the local church movement ... also headed by gods ... coincidentally. How do you like that?
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09-07-2014, 09:05 AM | #273 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Gotta get me one of those so I can look hip down in Sheol.
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09-07-2014, 10:45 AM | #274 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Sheol = Hades. Just stay out of Tartarus, the "deep, gloomy part of Hades, used as a dungeon of torment and suffering."
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02-11-2015, 06:49 AM | #275 |
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An interesting web site.
Here is and article by someone at the Sorbonne in Paris, delineating differences in thought patterns, behaviors, and groups, in Asia versus the West.
http://www.ceibs.edu/ase/Documents/E...orum/faure.htm I liked the idea that the language shapes thought processes, and the presentation of thought processes in language. Western thought, post-Descartes, developed in a more linear fashion. Oriental thought is holistic. So Lee's "This proves that", may be easily rejected with a few linear refutations. I can show causality elsewhere. But perhaps there was a larger theme that Lee's linear forays were aimed at building. So to dismiss his thinking simply because one shows inconsistencies in his thought may be writing him off too quickly. Perhaps there are larger themes ("the ministry"?) which consistently emerge within "God's economy" and "God becoming man to make man God" and "the processed Triune God", etc. Also interesting to me was the idea of the value of relationships. In Chinese society, strangers are less trusted and family is more trusted. So I shouldn't be shocked if the "family" of the local church, no matter how it is touted, is pretty weak. If Philip and Timothy Lee was allowed to crash the "church life" party, we shouldn't be too shocked. Also if we see social ties remaining at arms length, even after years of close association. In contrast, Western relationships become intense, quickly. Westerners will become emotionally vulnerable, and accessible, to each other much more easily. Think of all the young idealists that flooded the local church scene circa 1965-75. Witness Lee welcomed them all. And he dumped them just as quickly. Because he had bigger fish to fry. We shouldn't be too shocked if the "love" moved elsewhere. Different values were at play.
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02-11-2015, 10:16 AM | #276 | ||||
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Re: An interesting web site.
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Also TC's treatment of underlings, and his expectation that they would carry that treatment back to their "localities". It is culturally sensible. Quote:
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So WL could tell SB "You just lost your virginity". Clash of the cultures. I won't say, "Suddenly it all makes sense to me", but really the importation of different values and expectations explains a lot.
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02-11-2015, 12:59 PM | #277 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Thanks Aron. "Covering Noah" is applied as a Biblical phrase for "saving face".
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02-11-2015, 03:47 PM | #278 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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And I'd like to expand that further. Just as Americans didn't understand Chinese cultural values which Lee brought over, so Nee & Lee in 1930s-40s China didn't understand the Near Eastern cultural values of the first century, which underlay so much of the text, which understandings had vanished with a combination of time and social upheaval. Every church rupture (the Great Schism, the Protestant Reformation) moved the collective discussion further from the original dialogue, and left readers reliant on what was seen there in the bare text. And, Post-Protestant, we saw what we wanted to see, what our cultural values primed us to see. Nee's "normal church" sprang out from the text like Athena from the forehead of Zeus. And "covering Noah" came along with it. To Nee & Lee, it was normal, proper and good. Like Lee suddenly changing course, that was just being pragmatic. Anything else would be foolish, because it would clash with his value systems.
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02-14-2015, 07:42 AM | #279 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
For an example of the cultural divide, look at attitudes toward family. Jesus taught to "hate your mother and father and sister and brother" for the sake of the kingdom. But the Chinese value of respect for elders trumped that. The Caucasians, without a cultural lens to receive it, took it literally.
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02-14-2015, 09:27 AM | #280 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But "hate your mother and father and sister and brother" was not the only thing Jesus said on the subject. And it was probably a form of hyperbole for the purpose of putting things into proper perspective. God and his kingdom comes first. Not mother, father, sister, and brother are at the bottom or are not even in consideration. There is something that we do not like about the Chinese culture. And there are things that we should see where our own culture is not God's culture. I believe that Nee and Lee were foolishly believing that Chinese culture somehow was the answer to being Christ-like. They probably didn't even recognize it is such. How much do we do the same (meaning we, generally, as Americans). We believe that capitalism is the Christian method of economics. We think that being independent and doing things for yourself is a Christian virtue. And thinking that my thoughts are better and therefore right (every man does what is right in his own eyes). There is much that is wrong with the LCM and with the substitution of Chinese worship of elders, family, etc., for the life that Christ calls us to live. That makes so much of the LCM a spiritual sham. But to the extent that we simply substitute American values for "Christian" living, we are no better. I start singing "Substitute" by the Who when I consider all the "this is simply that" stuff that Lee pushed on us. And the one that mostly comes through is "Substitute your lies for fact."
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02-14-2015, 12:32 PM | #281 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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I believe that we all read things with a subjective cultural lens. We behave individually, but in so doing we at least partly act out values that we absorbed from our parent culture. Watchman Nee found a vision of the "normal church" in the text of the NT, and to some degree it was arguably truer, scripturally, than the European/American model that had been imported on Chinese soil. But he also read into it his ideas of what was normal. And "everyone line up with the person in front of you", for example, was probably a value derived from his societal heritage. In America he'd have been laughed out of the room, but in China it was taken as from God. And I think that Witness Lee abandoning John Ingalls, his "closest co-worker" for his profligate son Philip is neither shocking nor incongruous if you remember the ingrained values he brought with him into the "glorious local church". Family was family and church was church. With the Caucasians, the local church would easier over-ride family ties. Even though he encouraged us to call one another "brother and sister", Lee clearly valued his son Philip more than his "brothers" Max Rappoport or John So or Bill Mallon. And the rest of us essentially lived in a personality cult, as we had to take his values (Philip Lee over John Ingalls and Bill Mallon) as our own. To OBW's post, the fact that Nee and Lee didn't see the Asian-ism of their interpretive position becomes a big problem. With Nee and Lee, the Maximum Brother (them) must be right at all times, else the whole collective enterprise will be in peril. An alternative, I believe, is not to become racist or xenophobic and decry the Chinaman Lee while asserting my own American-isms as the (superior) solution, but to realize that we all have bias. We all have interpretive predispositions. The person who thinks that (s)he alone is "cutting straight the word of the truth" will be the most deviant. Lee insisted on being that designated "straight cutter" -- so he and his followers went right into the ditch.
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02-14-2015, 03:54 PM | #282 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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02-14-2015, 04:07 PM | #283 | |
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02-14-2015, 04:10 PM | #284 | |
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02-18-2015, 12:24 AM | #285 | |
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Re: An interesting web site.
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02-18-2015, 06:32 AM | #286 | |
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Re: An interesting web site.
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My reply is this: we don't realize how many blind spots we have. Nee's "normal church" was read through a cultural lens. Period. If you don't see this, you don't see it. But Nee's so-called normal church was his normal church, not the normal church for everyone at every time. Doesn't mean that the European/North American church model, imported onto Chinese soil, which Nee reacted to, wasn't corrupted. It was. But the Nee model was also corrupted. We all are. That's just the way it is. The one who thinks he sees most clearly is the most blind of all. So the blind spot in the LCs is big as a house, big as a bucket loader running over everyone and everything. Big as a tank in your living room. And then one wonders why the furniture is always crushed. So, blame it on the "storms" and "turmoils" and "rebellions" inherent in humanity, in life itself. And therefore one is unable to learn, to grow, to change. Always remaining true to the "vision", or lack thereof.
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02-18-2015, 09:40 AM | #287 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
The "recovery" narrative held that Christianity had by fits and starts improved itself, essentially starting with the Protestant Reformation of Martin Luther. Then, on "fresh soil", God raised up WN, who was able to do a syncretistic (combining) work and take the best of Darby, Luther, Murray, Govett, Penn-Lewis et al and get a "vison for the age". Now, why can't you or I come along, take a piece of WN and a piece of Billy Graham and a piece of Robert Schuller and a piece of Rick Warren (or whomever) and do our own syncretistic work? Why was WN's "normal church" vision supposed to be the culmination of all visions, only to be supplemented by his "closest co-worker" WL, and after that to be supplemented by nothing at all? Ultimately this narrative reveals itself as not being based on the Bible. Pray tell us, what scriptural revelation shows us one spiritual giant per age, eventually terminating in the age of "small potatoes"? What scripture supports the idea that "everyone must get in line" behind the Maximum Leader (ML)? Etc, etc, etc? No, I argue that this kind of narrative arises from, and (importantly) takes root and grows upon, the shifting and untrustworthy sands of human culture. Therefore we said, "Amen, amen", even when the narrative drifted further and further from scripture, because our LC culture dictated that we be "one" with the ML, even if the ML deviated significantly from scripture, morality, and common sense.
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02-18-2015, 10:47 AM | #288 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Why choose Luther? Not taking anything away from his service to God, but he readily admitted he was a "Hussite." According to my study of church history, the Czech Jan Hus should have been the first "Recovery" minister. According to Nee's prophetic commentary of the 7 churches in Revelation, Luther should have represented Pergamos since he was so attached or "married" to the world, drawing his strength from the German nobility, most of which cared only to be loosed from Rome. Then why was China the "virgin soil?" Why not Czech, Germany, or Bohemia? Why not India? I'm still purging my memory of Lee's tall tales of revisionist church history.
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02-18-2015, 10:44 PM | #289 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Just the way of the world, I guess. Not such a bad thing -- so long as we're able and willing to acknowledge it for what it is.
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08-08-2015, 08:03 PM | #290 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
First off, the emergence of the Little Flock was a culturally-driven reaction to economic, cultural, and political imperialism by the west.
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It also explains why 30 years later Lee put his admittedly ne'er-do-well on Philip in charge of the Living Stream Ministry: because Philip was in the network of family. To have not given him some of the spoils of the flock would have been an unforgivable sin, for Lee's culture. Ditto for son Timothy and Daystar. A father couldn't abandon his children, no matter how scurrilous, reprobate, or unspiritual they may be. They're in the network. You have to honor the network, and give them something. Culture triumphs. And Lee himself was the Top Dog, publishing all those books, so his ministry added the most value to the network. So the idea of his "ministry" became the stand-in for Jesus Christ. Those like EM, RG, BP who incessantly promoted the ministry added value to the network, and rose to become the Blendeds. Those who valued their conscience more than the network were disposable. It's all about the network: without the network you are nothing. It also makes perfect sense that they constantly promoted the recruiting of "good building materials" and ignored the divine mandate to give to those who couldn't repay you in this age. Because it's all about adding value to the network. People who don't repay you in this age add nothing to the network: forget about them. It also explains why the Party and the People remain unchallenged in China decades after its main Western analog, the Russian Soviet Federation, collapsed. The Chinese culture values the system, not the individual. The individual only has value as much as he or she is related into the system. Put "church" instead of "Party", and suddenly you have the Lord's Recovery and you have the same thing. Instead of Chairman Mao adding to value to the system it is the Apostle of the age, God's humble bondslave Witness Lee. It also explains how the "Lord Changshou" sect of the Shouters broke off. Elevate Lee to Godhood, and you as the chief value-adder (promoting Lee to God status) get elevated, also. Just like BP and RK and EM: elevate Lee, and elevate yourself. Lee added value, so you promote Lee's ministry, then you add value to the network. And it's just what Lee himself did by calling Nee the Seer of the Divine Revelation. Lee elevated Nee as the top value adder, then he (Lee) as Nee's chief promoter got to be next in line. Pretty simple math, really. Add value to the system, and your value goes up, also. Your value is proportional to the value that you add to the system. There's nothing wrong with that system, per se, and it's certainly not inferior to the Western model - it works, after all - but it is still "the way of the Gentiles".
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08-10-2015, 06:55 AM | #291 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Now look at Watchman Nee: first he sold the idea of "autonomy" and "independence" in the local church, then called the Little Flock. In the 1920s and 1930s whole congregations moved away from the Western-affiliated model and to Nee's model. The Methodists had done the hard work of conversion and now Nee's model was, they complained, "stealing the sheep". But in fact the sheep were voting with their feet. No more foreign church affiliation, but the true, 'normal' church of the Bible. Then Nee reversed course, dramatically. Suddenly he discovered the 'Jerusalem Principle', in which one church was the HQ and everybody had to line up. 'Handing Over' followed suit. Not just the local, autonomous, independent church but the Mother Church became the focus. Also Church Leadership. Who's the Big Boss? And they all followed suit. How could all these people reverse course so dramatically? I can understand Nee's motives, but what of the thousands, even tens of thousands, who immediately followed suit? I believe they were hard-wired with a cultural imperative which made building up the Collective a prime directive. Both the original "autonomous" directive, which expelled foreign affiliation/domination, and the "Jerusalem" directive, which consolidated power, direction, and coordination, were seen as building up the Network/Hive/Collective. So in both cases they would be followed en masse. There is no contradiction. The only problem was when the Little Flock Hive ran into a bigger Hive. The Commie Hive. Then, the 'People' and the 'Party' won over, and the Little Flock was seen as a counter-revolutionary movement which needed to be expunged. Just as WN brooked no deviance to his Authority Model, so neither did the Communists. And they had the guns, so the fall of the house of Nee was great. Later, Witness Lee resurrected the same model in the USA, with interestingly similar patterns. First, throw off the yoke of Religion. We answer only to Jesus. Then, spread to all the cities of the earth. All local and autonomous. Then, consolidation began - we all have to be One. See the classic RecV footnotes in Revelations 2 and 3. All churches have to be absolutely identical. Ideas like Blending, Fellowship, Coordination were now the new norm. We must have the Practicality of the Body of Christ. In other words, just as Nee said 50 years earlier, Find out who is in front of you, and get in line. So culture triumphs, in the end.
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08-10-2015, 09:49 AM | #292 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-10-2015, 09:54 AM | #293 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Makes sense to me. The New Testament can be very communistic. And Lee used it that way. It amazes me that Americans fell for it. But how could they not? Lee used the Bible.
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08-10-2015, 11:45 AM | #294 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So the idea common in the Occidental West, since at least the Enlightenment Era of Jefferson and Madison and Locke, of give-and-take, with checks and balances, had no place with the Apostle of the Age. The "Authority and Submission" stuff had a veneer of Biblicality but it was culture-driven, sure 'nuff. And stuff like "We must all be absolutely identical, with no differences" and "Everybody should know who is in front of them and get in line" are pure Orientalisms. No Bible involved. Pure, raw human culture. Not even a pretense of spirituality. But we were mesmerized and followed along, anyway. It is amazing, what a con job. And we fell for it.
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08-10-2015, 01:24 PM | #295 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-10-2015, 01:30 PM | #296 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But I remain spellbound by it. For example, I read Joseph Campbell's Masks of God series. It's a four book series:
I read all of them but Oriental. I saved that last because I knew it would be his best work. I left that hanging for over a decade. Then around 3 yrs ago I decided to finally read it. By that time I had a Kindle reader (thanks to the sister that helped me marry in the LC long long ago). But Masks of God wasn't offered in digital format. So I sent an email to the Joseph Campbell Foundation about it. I'm a member. I was told they were working on it, and lo and behold they had Oriental Mythology finished. And a digital copy was sent to me. I spent days binge reading it. It's a great book. I'm still spellbound by the Orientals. But I see it thru Occidental eyes, or thru Campbell's Creative Mythology, the culmination of Western thought. And that's why I'm amazed that us westerners fell for Lee's Oriental mythology. I think the reason for that is because it's so framed by the Bible that Lee's Oriental mythology is not easily recognized. The Bible masks it. In short, the Occident took the Bible to the Orient, Nee and Lee picked up on it, and Lee brought the Oriental version of the Bible to the Occident. And we westerners found the Oriental version of the Bible new and attractive ... and ... AND ... fell for Lee's Oriental hive culture and mentality. It's like Lee slipped us a mickey -- a date raped drug, so to speak -- in his Bible Kool-Aid, took our virginity, and screwed us ... like his son did to the married sisters in LSM, metaphorically speaking.
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08-11-2015, 06:46 AM | #297 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Even the stuff that's directly from the Bible is way unbalanced. It's like they obsess on 10% of the text, use 20 or 30% to prop up their obsession, distort another 20 or 30% to pretend to complete the picture, and ignore the rest. If you quote them a verse that's not covered by "the ministry", they just stare blankly at you as if you're speaking Swedish.
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08-11-2015, 07:01 AM | #298 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Here is Teresa Zimmerman-Liu: Quote:
But the Asian model needs a "Spritual Giant" (LSM term), a "super apostle" (Paul's term) to give it social cohesion. And the rest of the Body, the People or Party or Church or whatever they call it, are defined in how they prop up the Maximum Brother. So in the PRC you had Chairman Mao. How could you not support Chairman Mao? Even today, 40 years after his death, you cannot criticize Mao. Social cohesion demands that we uplift the center and head. So a person becomes the stand-in for the State. And the LSM variant was that "the ministry" should be supported. They called it "the practicality of oneness". How could you say that you are one, if you don't support the ministry? So a fallen, fleshly man becomes the stand-in for the kingdom of heaven. To me it's a completely culturally-derived model. It's "normal" for Nee and Lee, because that's their culture. And they did an impressive job of selling it to the naiive Westerners. Some of us even held on through all the "storms" and "rebellions" and "turmoils" that such a model engendered.
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08-11-2015, 10:26 AM | #299 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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By the way, From “Children of the Devil” to “Sons of God”: The Reconfiguration of Guanxi in a 20th Century Indigenous Chinese Protestant Group By Teresa Zimmerman-Liu can be found at: http://sociology.ucsd.edu/graduate/d...oSonsofGod.pdf
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08-11-2015, 11:41 AM | #300 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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And Witness Lee openly envied the Red Guards of Mao; all he had to work with were the stupid "mooing cows" of the LC. But Witness Lee didn't model himself after the Commies, but rather both the Commies and Lee's LC had to conform to standard Asian cultural social contracts to thrive. As do all human collective enterprises, to some degree - they have to account for cultural norms, expectations, and tastes. The peril was that we weren't supposed to have anything but heavenly culture in the LC, so when we got repeatedly trampled by the elephants which didn't exist, we just had to dust ourselves off and pretend nothing was wrong. And so it got wronger, and wronger, and wronger. The "flavor" of the LC is definitely Chinese. But you aren't supposed to admit that.
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08-11-2015, 11:46 AM | #301 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
From Teresa Zimmerman-Liu's paper:
For Kipnis (1997:8) what is actualized in guanxi rituals is the network of relationships that “in fact constitute one’s self” and the “families, villages, and perhaps any other social group one could name.” Thus, guanxi practices and relationships form the warp and weft of Chinese societies, and foreign institutions, such as capitalism or Christianity must negotiate their form with respect to guanxi rituals, when they enter a Chinese society. I think that if you never get this stuff you'll never understand the LC. Conversely, once you get it, all that 'weird' stuff makes perfect sense; suddenly you have a coherent narrative. The self is identified in conjunction with its larger social structure. So meaning and value are derived from that larger form. The problem is, Jesus upended the conventional values of the social model. Jesus taught that the great "Spiritual Giant" on earth is really the least in the kingdom. And the littlest "Small Potato" is the greatest. So the LC model works on earth, but it violates the basic spiritual principles of heaven that it was supposed to build towards. Just another human-oriented, Babylonian Tower. And this one got pretty high, because we didn't see it for what it was, and we turned over everything - what was it the Age Turners pledged? Their lives, their income, jobs, relationships, families, etc. Stacking bricks toward heaven.
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08-11-2015, 02:02 PM | #302 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-11-2015, 02:02 PM | #303 | |||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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The body metaphor in the New Testament may be communistic, but it's head is Christ, that's obvious in the metaphor (we aren't actually the physical body of Christ). 'Offends the Chinese people' and 'offends the body' would be abstracts that would easily mingle in Lee's mind. It would come as natural as walking and breathing to Lee. In essence, Lee couldn't help but bring the Chinese model to the west. It constituted him. He picked it up in his cult-ure. He saw it with deep gǎnqíng. I've always thought the LC's exemplar model was the Rome Catholic Church. That just proves I think in western terms. But now I see the exemplar model was really the Chinese system. "Authority and Submission" by Nee, is exactly that system.
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08-11-2015, 04:09 PM | #304 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Authoritarian models are not unique to the Orient. But notice how well this one ran, while other models came apart at the seams. Because this variant had a large, pliable membership base in "the virgin soil of China", while the man-lording and man-elevating aspects were carefully hidden behind rhetoric and argumentation to fool the foriegners. It is only when you see the statements like "everybody get in line with the person in front of you" and "every church must be exactly identical" to you really see it for what it is. Oriental despotism, pure and simple.
Comparing this model to the RCC, the RCC looks almost benign. Would Desiderius Erasmus have survived in the Lee church? No chance. And Nee & Lee sold it so well to us, because they believed it. It was in their blood, in the air they breathed. So they really sold it well. You have to give them credit for that. Lastly, look how Lee told us to overlook his "messy kitchen" while he built the perfect church life to consummate the New Jerusalem. But nobody else's kitchen got a free pass. Because it wasn't his. So you can see how subjective it was - he could see everyone else's fallen culture but not his own. "Who can discern his own errors?" Psalm 19:12
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08-11-2015, 06:39 PM | #305 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Come to think of it, it's dangerous to ignore the bones. Especially when eating fish, it you don't "take heed" of bones, you might choke on it.
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08-11-2015, 07:12 PM | #306 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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We should have told Lee that we preferred indigenous Christianity. ...And driven that Eastern Imperialist back to China.
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08-12-2015, 05:16 AM | #307 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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We all have bias. We use filters to sift through the mass of experiences streaming in. Many of these filters are culturally-derived, maybe almost all. What's pernicious about Lee's filters, in particular, is that he couldn't see them, wouldn't admit that he had any, and convinced a bunch of us likewise. We endured beating after beating (sometimes literally - see bro Ohio's testimony of the GLA experience), all the while convinced that it was pure and heavenly. "Glorious church life, feasting on such a rich store" - remember that song? Our portion in the LC was supposed to be rich, high peak, glorious, and pure and without mixture, while everyone else's experience was poor. But that, my friends, is a culturally-derived view, and model. It was an effective glue for the LC 'social contract', but still was human culture. Many of us got damaged or even spiritually destroyed, in the various storms and turmoils, but the model lived on. But it's important to see it for what it really is. Yes, there's a lot of non-LC, non-Asian despotism out there, elevating of persons and lording over others. This particular brand, however was Asian, and its unfamiliarity helped mask it for what it was. Then, when things went south, we still didn't know what it was, and what was beating us so badly, so we toughed it out, convinced it was 'of the Lord', when really it was 'of men'. 'Covering the brothers'. That preserves the network. Leadership survives, network survives. Look what happened to the Mars Hill church group without Mark Driscoll. It imploded. 20,000 members to nada. 'Positive for the ministry'. The ministry is the life-blood of the network. No ministry, no network. So we must continually prop up and promote the ministry. Even when it feeds us crap, we must smile and say, "Yummy." 'Our leader is(or was) a spiritual giant'. Promote the leader, promote the group. 'Even when he's wrong, he's right'. Never question leadership. That is Asian culture. 'Get in line, and follow the person in front of you'. Asian practice. Watchman Nee's organizational scheme in the Little Flock. 'Everyone must be absolutely identical'. Conformity is good because it doesn't threaten group cohesion. We can't have individuals here. That leads to disharmony. Individuality might lead to chaos. We must, at all costs, preserve the network. Conscience, truth, justice - forget about it. Preserve the network. 'Don't waste your time' with the poor, weak, sick, and aged. They can't be used to build the network. Instead, get the useful 'good building materials'. Don't waste precious resources on those who can't pay you back in this age. This is Asian culture, without pretense of biblicality. And so on. If I tried I could probably think of a dozen or twenty more LC-isms. And in many of them there's a strong Asian flavor. Sometimes it's pretty overt, with no Biblical covering. Usually, though, it's carefully reasoned out in scripture. But they came to scriptures with a cultural bias, or lens, or filter, and reasoned out a system based on that bias, and then exported it. Yes it is imperialism. Cultures are good at that. The Chinese aren't the first. But certainly that seems to be what happened here.
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08-12-2015, 06:47 AM | #308 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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The ministry must be preserved at all costs, even if the Bible is diminished in the process, because the ministry is essential to build the network. The Bible, however, is expendable; occasionally useful, occasionally not useful. Rather, I believe that the Bible coherently presents us with a picture of Jesus Christ. And the more we see it, the more opportunity we have to enter in, ourselves. Instead, the LC ministry gave us a culturally-derived interpretive model, which ultimately distracted us from the Bible and the Christ of God revealed therein.
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08-21-2015, 05:33 AM | #309 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Quote:
The reaction to Western technological and cultural hegemony, and unfair trade practices, was summed in "Revere the Emperor, expel the barbarians". Likewise, Watchman Nee's indigenous alternative to Western spiritual imperialism found a ready audience in the Chinese Christian community, where xenophobic (anti-foreigner) sentiments were widespread. Now here's where I find two striking parallels: first is that just as the Japanese saw no contradiction between "expelling the barbarians" and themselves becoming the invaders in Manchuria, China and WWII (because both actions furthered the interests of Greater Japan), so also did the quite different philosophies of "local autonomy" and "centralization" make sense in Nee's conceptual world. Both autonomy (from the foreigners) as an initial step, and centralization and handing over as a later step, were to further the interests of Nee's church organization. Secondly, both the Japanese Empire and Witness Lee's Local Church, like Mao's China or Nee's Little Flock, had no room for democracy, and no time to entertain the opinions of the people. Discourse among peers to collectively solve problems was/is discouraged: in Nee's words you must "figure out who's in charge and get in line". Obey without question. As the Japanese put it so succinctly: revere the Emperor. Reverence to central authority was the social glue that gave everything shared meaning, purpose, and cohesion. I remember Lee saying that the LC is an army, not a democracy. But if he'd read American history he'd know that George Washington's Continental army had a consensual, democratic aspect: when Washington wanted to figure out what to do next, he'd often call his generals into a tent and they'd hash it out in front of him. This is how they decided to continue the advance, after the brilliant surprise victory at Trenton, and press the attack against the British at Princeton. The Continentals were bloody, weak, and cold: what to do - forward, or go back to safety? Washington was a true leader (in the Western mold) in that he didn't worry about strong, opinionated, vocal underlings. In the Asian model, allowing such open debate would be seen as weakness, loss of control, and the precursor of social collapse. Western civilization isn't inherently superior to Eastern; obviously Asian armies and navies have had much success over the years, as have their governments, cultures and societies. Look at Singapore! A very successful society on many levels. But the Nee/Lee church set-up is an Asian one, and was created from and disseminated through fallen human culture just as surely as were the Methodists who brought Christianity to China. Once you see the influence of human culture, values, thinking and practices in the LC operation it becomes more understandable. Like seeing Watchman Nee's complete 180 degree reversal from the 1920s to the 1940s; what was once contradictory and baffling to my eyes suddenly became sensible. I don't have to agree, or follow, but can start to understand what happened.
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08-21-2015, 07:01 AM | #310 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
"As a perceived foreign menace the Christian community became the target of the bloody rampage by famished North China peasants known as the Boxers. Before the revolt was quelled by the expedition forces, it had visited death on more than 200 Westerners and untold thousands of native converts.
As the culmination of nineteenth-century anti-foreign and anti-Christian agitation, the Boxer Uprising drove home the point to Chinese Christians that, in the popular mind, their profession of the foreign faith and their membership in churches dominated by the Westerners had turned them into disciples of the 'foreign devils' and collaborators in a Western assault on Chinese tradition. In the decades that followed, a chief test of Chinese Christian leadership would be the ability to shake off the foreignness of their religion, to take control of the churches, and to fashion a viable indigenous Christianity that would respond to the needs of the country and its people." "The Search for Chinese Christianity in the Republican Period", by Lian Xi. Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 38, No. 4 (Oct 2004), pp. 851-898. If I remember, Lee's family suffered in the persecutions of the Boxer Rebellion. So Nee's proposal of a biblically-based "normal" Christian church was obviously appealing to many, many Chinese Christians, Lee included. But it was a solution from the Bible being read through the lens of human culture and meeting immediate human need, i.e. expediency. To sell it as the solution for all Christian people at all times is short-sighted, to put it mildly.
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08-21-2015, 11:19 AM | #311 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
An excerpt from Life Study of Genesis, chapter 114:
"After the Boxer Rebellion, many saints in England prayed desperately for the vast country of China. The Lord answered their prayers by coming in and doing a marvelous work in the colleges throughout the country. Thousands of students, including a good number of brilliant ones, were captured by the Lord, and many of them saw a vision. I was one of these students, and I was very familiar with the situation. Brother Nee was not the only one to see something concerning the church. Many others did also. However, they were afraid to speak of their dream concerning the church. These students were afraid of the missionaries, whose goal was to advance their mission work, their mission church. They were fearful that if they spoke something different from what the missionaries were doing, they would get into trouble. Because of his bold speaking, Brother Nee was betrayed. In the middle 1920s he published twenty issues of a paper called The Christian. In the articles in this paper Brother Nee spoke according to his dream. As a result, people laughed at him, and he got into trouble. The missionaries, teachers, and theologians, all of whom were older than he, disregarded him and opposed him. Brother Nee had seen a vision of local churches in every city throughout China. A quarter century later, his dream was fulfilled. By 1948 there were about five hundred local churches in the provinces of China. Before Brother Nee's dream was fulfilled, however, he suffered a great deal, not only from outsiders, but even from turmoil stirred up by insiders. Due to this turmoil, his ministry was set aside for a number of years. Brother Nee once told a certain brother that there was no possibility to ever resume his ministry. This is an indication of the severity of Brother Nee's sufferings. He suffered so intensely that he felt that it was impossible for him ever to resume his ministry. But, much to his surprise, the Lord did something in 1948 to restore his ministry. In the forthcoming biography of Brother Nee now in preparation all this will be made clear. As a result of the restoration of Brother Nee's ministry, hundreds of churches were raised up in the cities of China. This was due to Brother Nee's speaking, to his sounding of the trumpet, and to that of a few co-workers who were faithful to him." Elsewhere, Lee talks about the 'persecution' of Christians in China causing the local churches to come forth. But Lee doesn't mention that this persecution is due to foreign affiliation. The incentive for the native Chinese to dissociate with European churches was very strong. They probably followed Nee not because he was right, but like Constantine before him, he offered a way for the widespread suffering to cease. And once you see everybody else is going, you go too. It's like a hit movie - eventually it gets its own momentum and people go see it because it is popular, not because it's any good. What follows is an excerpt from The Meaning of the Church, Book 1. pp. 94,95: "In 1900 thousands of Christians were killed in the Boxer Rebellion. From the human perspective, the church suffered a great deal. But from God's perspective, the church in China was able to travel a long distance in a glorious way. The Boxer Rebellion can be compared to a large camel that was unclean in the eyes of God, yet it functioned as a means of transportation for the church... The reason the churches in China are in their present condition is due to the persecution of Christians in the Boxer Rebellion. Since that time there has been the continual increase of the Lord's testimony in China." None of the Chinese xenophobia as a backdrop to the rise of the Little Flock (i.e. 'the Lord's testimony') is mentioned by Lee. It isn't helpful to the story of Nee. Plus, the glaring disconnect of an indigenous, nativist movement arising as a reaction to foreign cultural imperialism, but later becoming an imperialist movement itself, and being exported and imposed on people in other lands, might at some point become too big not to notice.
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08-21-2015, 12:31 PM | #312 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Nee? No great leader is great until the mythmakers are finished ; in this case Lee.
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08-23-2015, 06:20 PM | #313 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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Ultimately, however, his teachings were revealed to contain new fetters. I think his subsequent centralization "Jerusalem" program made that quite clear: "get in line" and "hand everything over" and "obey without question" became the new watchwords. Asian Church Organization 101. Meet the new boss...
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08-24-2015, 02:38 PM | #314 |
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"You're in the (Asian) army now"
I wanted to re-visit Terry's post of his experience in Bellevue, where the elder said, "This isn't a democracy - the church life is an army". Specifically, it is an Asian army. As I said, if you read the history books you will see the American Army having an allowance for discussion, for back-and-forth. Earlier I gave George Washington and his generals as a classic case, but it was by no means the last. Conversely, in the Asian army it's expected that no commentary or public deliberation will be raised. At all. Ever.
In the American Army, if the commander gives an illegal order, the troops not only have the right to resist, but will be held accountable if they comply. Lt. Calley and the men of My Lai in Vietnam (shooting unarmed civilians in a ditch) found this out: you're expected to know the rules, and an order by a superior can't countermand them. But in the Asian army, any command from above is the rule, in and of itself. "Even when he's wrong he's right" is a classic orientalism. I remember my LC "junior elder" telling me that whatever the "senior elder" said, he would do without question or hesitation, however wrong or ridiculous. At the time I thought it strange, as much of the Asian-steeped world of the LC was. But I went along anyway. (I found it preferable to the even stranger world I'd come from.) Lastly, the Asian army doesn't value individual human life very much. If you're left behind, or plowed under, too bad for you. The "lost sheep" doesn't count for much - the army must go on. No Gettysburg Address for the fallen. The Individual is continually sacrificed for the Mother Ship. From the banzai charges of the WWII Japanese to the human wave assaults of the Chinese and Koreans in the next war, the tactics of sacrificing pawns for the greater good was considered to be sound, even de rigueur. Using such tactics, the North Vietnamese eventually triumphed over the U.S. a decade later - they suffered exponentially greater losses, but had the stomach to absorb the suffering while the U.S. didn't. So when WL paid lip service to his fallen comrades, and Steve Isitt went out to find them, he found out how much WL really cared. Not at all, in fact. Because the lost sheep had stories to tell, and the Mother Ship couldn't absorb the tales. Fact-finders and truth-tellers, in spite of rhetoric to the contrary, were shunned like the plague. In the Asian-flavored LC, if the individual couldn't be utilized to service the collective, they had no value. As in zero - the lost sheep don't exist. The collective must go on, and acknowledging lost individuals threatens the group-centric church life. Instead, we get the faceless, drab, grey, sea of proletariat small potatoes. There aren't any individuals - Mother Ship is all. It's Maoism with a religious face.
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08-27-2015, 06:47 AM | #315 | |
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Re: "You're in the (Asian) army now"
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So it's not really too much to expect, that a Chinese man leading a church in the USA would have some of these issues. WL's apologists say that his word selection is misunderstood, because English is not his native tongue. He just seems to be non-orthodox in his presentation of the trinity, for example. But it's merely awkwardness in language. And so forth. My castigation of LC "Maoism" may have be too strong, because there's another culture at work here, and not from heaven but earth, with its behavioral customs and social expectations. So I don't want to be judging an ethnicity or a culture or history, as if mine were somehow better. If my posts seemed venomous (and surely some were, at some point), then mea culpa. I apologize. Certainly we can make the generalization of the individual vis-a-vis the collective in Asian versus Western thought, and how it played out in the care for the proverbial lost sheep, and the have-nots, and the ability for the individual member to take initiative in their spiritual life versus waiting for a command from HQ. And so forth. But if my tone has been unpleasant I apologize.
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08-27-2015, 09:29 PM | #316 | |
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Re: "You're in the (Asian) army now"
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Seriously though in the local churches individualism is de-emphasized. The end justifies the means even if the result is utilizing brothers and sisters as pawns for LSM's bottom line.
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08-27-2015, 10:44 PM | #317 | |
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Re: "You're in the (Asian) army now"
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08-28-2015, 11:55 AM | #318 | |
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Re: "You're in the (Asian) army now"
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I don't make any claim that the LC is obligated to fit American culture. The only issue I take is when they make the claim that culture is nonexistent or irrelevant in the LC. More than anything else, LC leadership is delusion in thinking that they can increase their relevancy in the U.S. without making significant changes. Case and point, if Lee's "New Way" projections were true, the LC in the U.S. would have been to the moon and back already in terms of membership increases. The fact of the matter is, whatever aspects of American culture are incompatible with the inherent Asian culture of the LC, those are things that will keep Americans from joining. Maybe the biggest generalization that can be made is the individual vs the collective. Americans value their individuality above all (even to a fault), so any group that attacks individuality is something most people want nothing to do with.
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08-28-2015, 12:59 PM | #319 | |
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Re: "You're in the (Asian) army now"
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Ones raised in the American culture are not prone to look the other way as those from the Chinese culture in regard to unrighteous matters. I'll sum up by saying how the late 80's turmoil was mishandled caused many Caucasian families to leave which could partly explain for the current LC demographics.
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09-12-2015, 11:28 AM | #320 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
A consideration I had this morning with regard to children raised in the local churches, that the Asian influence results in repression. Especially when young people reach the ages of 17-19 years old the effects of repression becomes manifest.
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09-12-2015, 02:27 PM | #321 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Repression of human nature can result in undesirable instincts and behaviors that wouldn't occur otherwise.
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02-08-2016, 09:41 AM | #322 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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If you think my writings are flowery hyperbole and unrelated to reality as it occurred on the ground, I googled some words in the quote above, and the first link was a discussion with Xi Lian, professor of world religion at Duke University, who got a Christianity Today book award in 2011 for his book "Redeemed by Fire" on modern Christianity in China. https://www.faithandleadership.com/q...op-its-own-way Quote:
Once you start to connect the dots, the cultural connections and forces become so glaringly obvious that you really have to be willfully obtuse not to see them. Everyone please repeat after me, "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand!"
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03-09-2016, 12:49 PM | #323 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Thinking about the Asian mind in relation to the western mind, how much of a cultural influence was in effect when Witness Lee tolerated his son's running roughshod over brothers, sisters, churches, etc?
To what extent in the Asian mind does the end justifies the means? (Consequentialism)
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03-14-2016, 11:31 AM | #324 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
A number of saints in my district went to Bro. Benjamin Chen's memorial service. When they returned and testified, it was so Chinese. For instance, I heard them say "golden opportunity" at least 4 times. Nothing wrong with being Chinese, but why do they say all other Christian groups are deformed and degraded? It doesn't make sense. Who are they to say this?
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03-14-2016, 02:13 PM | #325 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-24-2016, 02:04 PM | #326 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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So, "Tell it to the church" is irrelevant? And Paul only heard about the impropriety in Corinth, therefore he should have ignored it? And Lee's 'spiritual being' came out of Nee? I had always thought God was the source of our personhood, our being, our very lives. Isn't this just human culture that we're seeing here, superimposed upon scripture?
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08-24-2016, 02:44 PM | #327 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
Let's look at the progression of Lee's argument with the Shanghai elders:
1. Whether he is wrong or right is not my business.Firstly, what is personal to Lee becomes mandatory for the elders. Secondly, the story of Noah proves right or wrong is insignificant when you consider your "source." Thirdly, it went from "like a father," to "my spiritual being came out of him," to "he is your father," to "whatever you are came out from him," to "whatever you obtained has come out of him." Looking carefully at each of these three progressions, woven into a single conversation, the reader is taken from a Paul/Timothy relationship to a Father God/son of God relationship. How subtle! If you swallow this persuasion, then W. Nee is God Himself to you, since you can only say of God Himself that "whatever you are came out from Him," and "whatever you have obtained has come out of Him." Is anyone besides God Himself really above the laws of right and wrong? Has there ever been any man of God who was absolutely above all accountability?
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08-25-2016, 08:16 AM | #328 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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But the cost of this mindset in their pursuit of social coherence and stability is seen in the periodic upheavals, the inevitable "storms", "turmoils", "rebellions", and "quarantines", along with the attendant lawsuits, divisions, rancor, etc, all of which are supposedly the cost of doing business. Such evaluations, writ large and formalized in the LC social contract, are culturally biased, I believe; what things one tends to accept as unfortunate but necessary, and what things one rejects as unthinkable. And the Bible becomes a bit player in the drama, a prop, used as necessary and ignored where unhelpful.
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08-27-2016, 08:42 AM | #329 | |
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Re: Second Gen SoCal LCM Asians
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I was in the SoCal LCM, but like Bob Seger's "Midwestern boy on his own", I didn't have the expectations that young Asians get pounded into them from their third or fourth breath. Middle-American Anglo expectations were completely different. Our culture is founded on independence, even rebellion - our forefathers threw off the yoke of centuries of kings and created a 'polis', a democratic government, a government of laws, of the people, of ideas. Not based on centuries of hierarchy or social strata. Questioning, challenging, finding new ways, leveling the playing field - these are ingrained in our cultural DNA. The Asians, from what I could see, were trained from Day One not to bring shame on the family. Many of us Anglos didn't have family - we lost it somewhere around the age of 12 or 15 when we hit the streets. That was simply how it was. It was natural for our culture. So I was a "stranger in a strange land" in SoCal LCM, but had been for some time; no biggie. Getting to the comment of Koinonia, that the cohort now struggling to live in the Lee Museum, dedicated by their parents to preserve a perfect world that never existed, may not have an emotional capacity to critically challenge its features the way many here have done - i.e. to challenge the expectations of the current status quo and still hope to walk out alive. We did - we grew up challenging everything - it was expected of us, culturally - but this demographic cohort has a different experiential basis, shared value set, and common assumptions. I brought it over here to the "Asian mind" thread, for one reason: it's important to examine cultural pre-suppositions, because if you don't deal with them, pretending that the "natural man" was buried under the Jordan River and doesn't exist here anymore, you're fooling yourself. Satan now has his invisibility cloak working in full force. So I try to bring this stuff into the open. Examine everything - especially the unexamined stuff. Now to Koinonia's idea: how to do it in a way that's respectful, with empathy, and invites others to come forward? In a way that's open, therapeutic, transformative? I may have failed miserably with this thread - I like sarcasm and often overstate and overgeneralize and overdramatize my points, and people get (rightly) turned off and wouldn't participate if offered 2 Grand. So, how to look at culture without insulting people, and turning them away? I don't know the answer to Koinonia's post but wanted to hold it out for consideration. If the challenge was taken up, respectfully and thoughtfully, it might bring this forum to the next level. Or it might point to a different kind of forum, that addressed issues this forum simply can't. Some kind of format that currently doesn't exist. In any event, there's a need, and I don't pretend to have the answer.
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08-29-2016, 11:41 AM | #330 | ||
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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WL is on the record attempting to instill a sense of guilt into co-workers who had concerns about Nee, implying that they should either feel indebted to Nee, or even feel that their existence as Christians would be nullified without Nee. Many years later, some of WL's coworkers attempted to use the same tactic in a letter to John Ingalls. It's really disturbing to see how far off the deep end the LC has gone with regards to appreciating certain people. There's nothing wrong with looking up to someone as a "spiritual father"/mentor, but if the appreciation cannot remain objective, then there will be problems. I also think that another factor at play is the cultural notion of reciprocity. This has been discussed before. Many of the blendeds who were personally mentored by Lee likely were made to feel 'indebted' to Lee. Philip Lin is on the record saying that according to his culture he must remain loyal to Lee. Beyond just an excessive appreciation of Lee, because many of these men were given special attention and positions by Lee, their reaction was to reciprocate with loyalty.
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08-29-2016, 01:02 PM | #331 | |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
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08-29-2016, 01:48 PM | #332 |
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Re: The Asian mind and the Western mind
On another thread I mentioned the testimony of a Brasil co-worker who dared question the finances of the Estancia Arvore da Vida (evidently, Dong's son ran the place). The moment he publicly raised the issue of their accounting practices, and their lack of transparency, and the perceptions that such arrangements engendered, then he was "out". And with this cultural mindset when you're out that's it - doesn't matter your position, your sacrifices, anything. The big wheel turns and you're ground to dust. Do not, under any circumstances, examine the Oracle. If you do, then you can't be trusted and you're effectively through.
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11-12-2016, 12:56 PM | #333 |
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Witness Lee on Watchman Nee
"Let me tell you a story concerning my own experience. For a period of six years, from 1942 to 1948, Brother Watchman Nee was out of his ministry. Because of the work of the Devil in China, there was a spiritual storm that kept Watchman from ministering. He and I were separated during the war. After the war, in 1946, I was invited to come from the north to the capital city in the south. When some of the co-workers who were involved in that storm against Brother Nee and who also knew me very well came from afar to meet with me, they said, 'Brother Lee, can you say that Brother Nee has ever been wrong?' I replied, 'Brothers, whether he is wrong or right is not my business. You must admit one thing—that we all owe very much to Brother Nee. We all must admit that he was just like a father to us all. If he was not a father to you, I must testify strongly that, in the Lord's economy, he certainly was a father to me. Before I met with Brother Nee, I knew nothing of the Lord's economy. He is my spiritual father, and my spiritual being came out of him.' Then I told the brothers the story of Noah. I said, 'Brothers, look at Noah's case. Was Noah wrong? Certainly he was wrong. But, it is not a matter of whether Noah was right or wrong; it is all a matter of from where we have received our being. Was Noah not our father? If he was your neighbor and not your father, it would be another story. But remember that you derived your being from him. He is your father. Whatever you are and whatever you obtained has come out of him. This involves you with the divine government.
Brothers, I didn't see the thing for which people condemn Brother Nee. Even if I did see that he was wrong, I have no position to say anything about his wrongdoing, because he is my spiritual father and my spiritual being came out of him. I could never say anything against him. I am under God's government. Brothers, you must consider that it is not a small thing to be against our spiritual father. When you were not against Brother Nee, what was your inner feeling?' They all admitted that they felt so much life. When I asked, 'How about now?' they responded, 'We have to admit that we are just dead. We have no anointing or watering within. We are dried up.' Then I said, 'Brothers, you should listen to this real sensation. Don't care for your mental analysis. According to your mental analysis, Brother Nee is condemned, but as long as you condemn him, you are dead. The more you condemn him, the more dead you are.' Immediately, the brothers turned and were saved from their dead situation." [Life-Study of Genesis] Witness Lee told the Shanghai elders, "It is a matter of receiving your being", and "You derived your being from him", meaning Watchman Nee. What 'being' is this they derived? Human or divine? Clearly human, i.e. status and position. Watchman Nee here is not "Our Father who art in heaven", but instead an earthly analog. Fallen and sinful, but clearly necessary for the Little Flock to go on. Yet the NT tradition had clearly departed from the 'respecter of persons' method. "Call no man your father, for you have one Father in Heaven: that is God." The 'ekklesia' brooked no fallen human culture promoting hierarchies of control, respect, and obedience. That is the way of the gentiles, but it should not be the way with you (Matt 10:5). Yet here in China, clearly established NT precedent is contravened because it isn't useful for the survival of Nee's and Lee's religious offices. Then, Lee said that he didn't see the things for which Nee was condemned. Remember this is 1946, before the Communist show trial, with the pictures and confession. So the context here in 1946 is, "tell it to the church"; Lee says, "I didn't see it, therefore it doesn't exist." Again, this is clearly human culture trumping scripture. The clear word of Jesus in the gospels is simply ignored as if it didn't exist, and cultural imperatives steamroll God's word into oblivion. "Brothers, these things should not be so." Philip Lin said, "I know in my conscience you brothers are right according to the truth, but in my culture I must be loyal to Brother Lee." This statement by Lin repeated a pattern set by Witness Lee, regarding Watchman Nee, a pattern which eventually preserved Lee's organizational leadership as well. Human culture was the incubator of the Little Flock of Nee, as well as the Local Church of Witness Lee, and also was their conduit to full flower and fruit-bearing.
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11-12-2016, 02:33 PM | #334 | |
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Re: Witness Lee on Watchman Nee
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11-12-2016, 04:09 PM | #335 | |
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Re: Witness Lee on Watchman Nee
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11-12-2016, 04:29 PM | #336 |
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Re: The Asian Mind/The Western Mind
"Let me tell you a story concerning my own experience. For a period of six years, from 1942 to 1948, Brother Watchman Nee was out of his ministry. Because of the work of the Devil in China, there was a spiritual storm that kept Watchman from ministering. He and I were separated during the war. After the war, in 1946, I was invited to come from the north to the capital city in the south. When some of the co-workers who were involved in that storm against Brother Nee and who also knew me very well came from afar to meet with me, they said, 'Brother Lee, can you say that Brother Nee has ever been wrong?' I replied, 'Brothers, whether he is wrong or right is not my business. You must admit one thing—that we all owe very much to Brother Nee. We all must admit that he was just like a father to us all. If he was not a father to you, I must testify strongly that, in the Lord's economy, he certainly was a father to me. Before I met with Brother Nee, I knew nothing of the Lord's economy. He is my spiritual father, and my spiritual being came out of him.' Then I told the brothers the story of Noah. I said, 'Brothers, look at Noah's case. Was Noah wrong? Certainly he was wrong. But, it is not a matter of whether Noah was right or wrong; it is all a matter of from where we have received our being. Was Noah not our father? If he was your neighbor and not your father, it would be another story. But remember that you derived your being from him. He is your father. Whatever you are and whatever you obtained has come out of him. This involves you with the divine government.
Brothers, I didn't see the thing for which people condemn Brother Nee. Even if I did see that he was wrong, I have no position to say anything about his wrongdoing, because he is my spiritual father and my spiritual being came out of him. I could never say anything against him. I am under God's government. Brothers, you must consider that it is not a small thing to be against our spiritual father. When you were not against Brother Nee, what was your inner feeling?' They all admitted that they felt so much life. When I asked, 'How about now?' they responded, 'We have to admit that we are just dead. We have no anointing or watering within. We are dried up.' Then I said, 'Brothers, you should listen to this real sensation. Don't care for your mental analysis. According to your mental analysis, Brother Nee is condemned, but as long as you condemn him, you are dead. The more you condemn him, the more dead you are.' Immediately, the brothers turned and were saved from their dead situation." [Life-Study of Genesis] Under Titus Chu, we heard this often concerning Lee, "he is my spiritual father, his mistakes are none of my business." Actually, as shepherds of the church of God, they are your business. God is our real Father, remember? "Call no man father." On the one hand, we in the LC's regularly condemned the Catholics for calling the priest their "Father," and then our leaders instruct us to do the same. The question remains, are our responsibilities greater to our spiritual "father" or to our heavenly Father and His children under our care? If loyalty to one's superior trumps all, then we are an army, not a church. We are not talking about meany complaints here, like whether our spiritual "father" drives a Chevy or a Cadillac. We are referring firstly to God's righteousness, and secondly to stumbling God's children. Those in the Recovery who have spoken out in the past concerning the sins of their leaders were willing to suffer for righteousness sake, and they did. Those who spoke out concerning the stumbling of God's children were not hirelings but real shepherds. This next statement that "my spiritual being came out of him," robs God of His glory. Our spiritual being came out from Him. The New Jerusalem of God's people may be our mother, working together with God, but never our source.
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11-12-2016, 06:12 PM | #337 | |
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Re: Witness Lee on Watchman Nee
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11-24-2016, 07:39 AM | #338 |
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Re: Witness Lee on Watchman Nee
Same can be said of LSM leadership today. Feeling bears more weight than facts. All reason and objectivity is tossed aside.
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12-14-2016, 10:34 AM | #339 | |
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Guanxi Networks
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The point I want to make is that we never saw this cultural influence, believing the Lee narrative that somehow China was (somehow) "virgin soil" for God to raise up something apart from fallen human culture. So when fallen human culture began trampling us to death, we couldn't see it. Even though we got crushed by it. It's amazing, really.
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12-14-2016, 11:04 AM | #340 | |
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Re: Guanxi Networks
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However, with every passing day, the LC is become more and more particular in its demographic: more Asian, more rich, more urban, and more elitist (in terms of education). Visit the FTTA today, and you will find that 70-90% of the population is either Asian-American or actually from Asia, and that the great majority of those come from wealthy families. LC young people are under constant pressure to attend elite universities on the East and West Coasts. The whole phenomenon is resulting in a cultural shift in the LC that is making it more and more unrecognizable to the original "baby boomer" generation that was captivated by Witness Lee in the 1960s and 1970s. It also means that the up-and-coming demographic of LCers feel more and more disconnected with anything that might be considered more traditionally American. LC leaders know this, and it's the reason why there is so much emphasis on fixing the "racial ratio" and "gaining 'typical' Americans." But it's a lost cause if you ask me. |
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12-14-2016, 11:11 AM | #341 | |
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Re: Guanxi Networks
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It took WL himself, back-stabbing dear brother John Ingalls for protecting vulnerable sisters from the profligate Phillip, to open my eyes to the corruption of fallen human culture within LSM.
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01-20-2018, 08:41 AM | #342 | |
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Cultural shift - paradigm shift?
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01-20-2018, 06:57 PM | #343 | |
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Re: Cultural shift - paradigm shift?
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Growth I've seen in the local church I visit is among Asian and Hispanic brothers and sisters.For the Caucasian brothers and sisters, they only get older without any new ones gained.
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03-21-2018, 01:34 PM | #344 |
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Re: Cultural shift - paradigm shift?
I had read a quote Brent Barber posted years ago on another website. His quote describing the late 80's was "white flight". I wonder if that's what he meant be demographics being changed due to many Caucasians leaving the local churches? Certainly in Anaheim that certainly was the case and could have been in other localities as well.
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03-21-2018, 06:05 PM | #345 | |
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Re: Cultural shift - paradigm shift?
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https://postsecondary.gatesfoundatio...lege-students/
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06-25-2018, 03:21 AM | #346 | ||
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Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Question: if women can't teach with authority, then why did Nee traffic with them? Answer: they were useful on the path to power - temporal, earthly, human power. They were used and then discarded. Today in the LC there are no women as senior or "blended co-workers" when Nee's own initial church experience had many. The only "truth" this Church is founded on is that of personal expediency. Look at the whole Jerusalem Principle thing. First it was all about localism, because that was the way to be shed of the Western control. Then suddenly Nee "recovered" the idea of centralized control. A blatant reversal. Same with Witness Lee. There's even a thread on this forum titled Early Lee vs Later Lee. The only constant was the pursuit, acquisition, and maintenance of personal power at others' expense. Why would anyone want to be enrolled in a Training Programme run by this group? It's manipulation and mind control, and entirely for someone else's benefit, not yours.
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06-25-2018, 06:47 AM | #347 |
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Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-25-2018, 08:12 AM | #348 |
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Getting ahead in the Guanxi Network
Although some scholars have discussed the concept of the “interaction ritual”, the question of how interaction rituals operate within differential closeness levels of guanxi in China has not yet been thoroughly explored. This study aims to fill this gap. It draws its data from two ethnographic studies of school place allocation in two Chinese cities during 2012 and 2013, and additional post-fieldwork in 2014. The research finds that the use of interaction rituals in la guanxi could be a profitable social investment, and that the interaction ritual chain is usually more powerful than a single instance of ritual. Instrumental li is the shared value behind this type of ritual practice, which has the function of exaggerating the actors’ moral obligation and emotional attachment, and masking rational calculation, in order to justify the practice. Expressive ritual is less valued, and occurs less frequently, with distance. Instrumental ritual is more workable and occurs more frequently in moderate guanxi (a relationship neither close nor distant) than in close and distant guanxi, thus following a “weak-strong-weak” pattern. These findings suggest that instrumental ritual plays a more important role than expressive ritual in building strong social capital, due to “the strength of weak ties”.
The phenomenon of using guanxi is pervasive, embedded in every aspect of Chinese social life, and reported on by domestic and international media. Guanxi refers to personal relationships, connections or networks based on Chinese culture, which can be utilised to acquire resources in informal and interpersonal forms (Jacobs, 1979 Jacobs, J. B. (1979). A preliminary model of particularistic ties in Chinese political alliances: KanCh’ing and kuanhsi in a rural Taiwanese township. China Quarterly, 78, 237–273. King, 1991 King, A. Y.-C. (1991). Kuan-hsi and network building: A sociological interpretation. Daedalus, 120(2), 63–84.; Kipnis, 1997 Kipnis, A. (1997). Producing guanxi: Sentiment, self, and subculture in a north China village. Durham, NC: Duke University Press; Yang, 1994 Yang, M. M. (1994). Gifts, favors, and banquets: The art of social relationships in China. New York: Cornell University Press). Guanxi practice is the use, development and maintenance of guanxi relationships, defined by Kipnis as the “practice of guanxi production” (Kipnis, 1996 Kipnis, A. (1996). The language of gifts: Managing guanxi in a north China village. Modern China, 22(3), 285–31, pp. 6–7). La guanxi, or instrumental guanxi practice, refers to those guanxi practices that have a clear instrumental purpose, such as making exchanges, manufacturing indebtedness or accomplishing tasks (Guthrie, 1998 Guthrie, D. (1998). The declining significance of guanxi in China’s economic transition. The China Quarterly, 154, 254–282., p. 266). Some other guanxi practices, such as visiting siblings with gifts at weekends without any instrumental purpose, are not regarded as la guanxi but as expressive guanxi practice, although it has been noted that such guanxi relationships can also be used instrumentally. Some argue that guanxi is a “special form”, or “variant form”, of social capital (Gold et al., 2002 Gold, T., Guthrie, D., & Wank, D. (Eds.). (2002). Social connections in China: Institutions, culture, and the changing nature of guanxi. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press., p. 7; Fan, 2002 Fan, Y. (2002). Questioning guanxi: Definition, classification and implications. International Business Review, 11, 543–561. , p. 549; Qi, 2013 Qi, X. (2013). Guanxi, social capital theory and beyond: Toward a globalized social science. British Journal of Sociology, 64(2), 308–324., p. 308; Wu, 2013 Wu, X. (2013). The power of social capital in school choice in a Chinese city. Australian Journal of Education, 57(1), 48–59., p. 49). Social capital pertains to the ability of actors to secure benefits by virtue of membership in social networks or other social structures (Portes, 1998 Portes, A. (1998). Social capital: Its origins and applications in modern sociology. Annual Review of Sociology, 24, 1–24., p. 6), and has three components – social networks, norms (such as obligation and reciprocity) and sanctions (Halpern, 2005 Halpern, D. (2005). Social capital. Cambridge: Polity. pp. 9–11). Guanxi, as a network, therefore seems to be one of the components of social capital rather than social capital itself. If we were to describe social capital based on a guanxi network, we would need to adopt a new term – “guanxi capital”. Bian (2001 Bian, Y. J. (2001). Guanxi capital and social eating in Chinese cities. In N. Lin, K. S. Cook, & R. S. Burt (Eds.), Social capital: Theory and research (pp. 275–295). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers. , p. 227) defines “guanxi capital” as the capacity to mobilise social resources from guanxi networks: for example, “having face means having guanxi capital” (Bian, 2001 Bian, Y. J. (2001). Guanxi capital and social eating in Chinese cities. In N. Lin, K. S. Cook, & R. S. Burt (Eds.), Social capital: Theory and research (pp. 275–295). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers, p. 227). In recent years, the Chinese media has frequently reported on the phenomenon of parents using guanxi to acquire school places for their children. In order to determine how and why people use guanxi in this context, two case studies of two small cities were carried out during 2012 and 2013, and additional post-fieldwork was conducted in 2014. Ethnographic case studies based on participant observation, interviews and documentation provided most of the data. In the two researched cities (“A” and “B”), the local government had established key schools, which offered a relatively better quality of education than the average school. Parents need to use guanxi, violating many rules, to obtain a place in key schools, if their children fail the entrance exam or lottery allocation and are not qualified for admission to these schools. Those who cannot use guanxi have to accept a lower-quality education. Forty-nine people (27 in City A and 22 in City B) were interviewed, and some relevant organisations (schools, training centres, and “cigarette and wine shops” that buy back expensive gifts) and activities (entrance exams, lottery activities and school places, gift giving, banqueting) were observed. The sampling criteria for participants cover people who are involved in guanxi practice for school places and relevant observers. Consequently, I utilised different categories of people, and divided the interview guides into seven categories in both cities: parents, teachers, students, head teachers, officials, shopkeepers, and other insiders. Those with different roles in la guanxi, including gift givers, gift recipients and middle-men, were observed and interviewed. Some of these were involved in the same case, allowing the researcher to capture both sides of the story. The documents collected included educational policies, student recruitment information, and local news items. I have coded all names, cities, places and schools in order to protect the anonymity of informants, and pseudonyms are used throughout this paper. Unlike Guthrie’s claim (1998 Guthrie, D. (1998). The declining significance of guanxi in China’s economic transition. The China Quarterly, 154, 254–282.) that the use of guanxi is declining, utilisation of guanxi to gain school places was found to be prevalent and on the increase in the two cities in this case study from 1998–2012. Due to Xi’s anti-corruption drive, which began in 2012, the use of guanxi to obtain places in key schools is restricted, but it still commonly occurs, with the emphasis shifting from key schools to key classes in regular schools where the rules are less strict. The use of guanxi in school selection has generally declined since 2012, but the use of guanxi to secure official positions, better treatment in hospital and other advantages is still prevalent. A substantial body of research has shown that many people use ritual to influence others when engaging in la guanxi, such as gift giving, banqueting, embodying concern, face giving and ritual struggle (Jacobs, 1979 Jacobs, J. B. (1979). A preliminary model of particularistic ties in Chinese political alliances: KanCh’ing and kuanhsi in a rural Taiwanese township. China Quarterly, 78, 237–273.; King, 1991 King, A. Y.-C. (1991). Kuan-hsi and network building: A sociological interpretation. Daedalus, 120(2), 63–84.; Kipnis, 1997 Kipnis, A. (1997). Producing guanxi: Sentiment, self, and subculture in a north China village. Durham, NC: Duke University Press.; Yang, 1994 Yang, M. M. (1994). Gifts, favors, and banquets: The art of social relationships in China. New York: Cornell University Press.). The investment in ritual can have a profitable return, such as a place in an elite school, a job, a professional rank, or better services in hospital. The use of ritual improves one’s ability to acquire resources in one’s guanxi network, raising one’s level of guanxi capital. In common parlance, a ritual is a formal ceremony, going through a set of stereotyped actions. Interaction rituals are both local and ubiquitous, operating in every daily interaction (Goffman, 1967 Goffman, E. (1967). Interaction ritual: Essays on face-to-face behavior. Garden City, NY: Anchor.), and form the processes by which participants develop a mutual focus of attention and become engrained in each other’s bodily micro-rhythms and emotions (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press., p. 67). Ritual produces a momentarily shared reality that generates solidarity and symbols of group membership (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press., p. 27). Traditionally, the interaction rituals of philosophers have attempted to produce truth, which function as Durkheim’s ([1912] 1965 Durkheim, E. (1965 [1912]). The elementary forms of religious life. New York: Free Press.) sacred objects: that is, as collective symbols that appear to transcend individuals, constrain behaviour and demand respect. The particular truth represents the solidarity of the group and energises those who participate in its production. Following the work of Durkheim ([1912] 1965 Durkheim, E. (1965 [1912]). The elementary forms of religious life. New York: Free Press.) and Goffman (1967 Goffman, E. (1967). Interaction ritual: Essays on face-to-face behavior. Garden City, NY: Anchor. ), Collins argues that rituals are constructed from a combination of ingredients that grow to differing levels of intensity, and result in the ritual outcomes of solidarity, symbolism and individual emotional energy (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press., p. 67). According to Collins, what is significant about these interaction rituals is not the manifest subject, but the fact that the rituals serve as a focus for attention and emotional involvement. Through the practice of ritual, people can improve their “mutually focused emotion and attention” and “emotional energy” – also expressed by the Chinese concepts of ganqing and/or renqing (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press., p. 67). Ganqing is translated as “affection” or “emotional feeling”, and represents emotional commitment in longstanding and intimate bonds, which always comes with material obligation (Yang, 1994 Yang, M. M. (1994). Gifts, favors, and banquets: The art of social relationships in China. New York: Cornell University Press.; Kipnis, 1997 Kipnis, A. (1997). Producing guanxi: Sentiment, self, and subculture in a north China village. Durham, NC: Duke University Press.). Renqing is simply reciprocal obligation and indebtedness, making guanxi more than just the social embeddedness and social connections identified in Western societies (Qi, 2013 Qi, X. (2013). Guanxi, social capital theory and beyond: Toward a globalized social science. British Journal of Sociology, 64(2), 308–324.; Yan, 1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press.; Yang, 1994 Yang, M. M. (1994). Gifts, favors, and banquets: The art of social relationships in China. New York: Cornell University Press.). In fact, the concept of renqing has at least four implications: 1) human feelings; 2) a resource as a gift or favour; 3) reciprocal obligation and indebtedness (known as renqing debt, or social debt); and 4) social norms in Chinese society, or the so-called renqing ethic (Gabrenya Jr. & Hwang, 1996 Gabrenya Jr., W. K., & Hwang, K. K. (1996). Chinese social interaction: Harmony and hierarchy on the good earth. In M. H. Bond (Ed.), The handbook of Chinese psychology (pp. 309–321). Hong Kong: Oxford University Press. ; Hwang, 1987 Hwang, K. K. (1987). Face and favor: The Chinese power game. American Journal of Sociology, 92(4), 944–974.; King, 1991 King, A. Y.-C. (1991). Kuan-hsi and network building: A sociological interpretation. Daedalus, 120(2), 63–84.; Li, 2001; Yan, 1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press.; Yang, 1994 Yang, M. M. (1994). Gifts, favors, and banquets: The art of social relationships in China. New York: Cornell University Press.). Yan (1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press) mostly takes renqing to mean social norms – the fourth implication listed above. Yan calls this the “renqing ethic”, and draws out three dimensions – rational calculation, moral obligation, and emotional attachment – as the principles of guanxi networks (Yan, 1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press., p. 46). Interaction rituals such as gift giving, banqueting and face giving are common in guanxi, and are in fact expressions and forms of renqing and face (Ruan, 2017a Ruan, J. (2017a). Guanxi, social capital and school choice in China: The rise of ritual capital. London: Palgrave Macmillan., pp. 121–134; Ruan, 2017b Ruan, J. (2017b). Ritual capital: A proposed concept from case studies of school selection in China. Asian Journal of Social Science, 45(3), 316–339., pp. 329–337). In the research discussed in this paper, all guanxi cases observed involve interaction rituals, and gift giving and banqueting are the two most popular methods of ritual practice. Gift exchanges in City A and City B form part of people’s daily practice, and people always bring gifts when they visit their friends or relatives. Some gift giving has a clearly rational intention. For instance, many people bring gifts to head teachers or officials when they ask for a place at a school. In my frequent visits to Xie and Lee, head teachers in City A, I noted that their apartments were full of guests and gifts during the summer – the time of year when parents seek to gain school places for their children. It is noteworthy that the ritual of home visits with gifts to head teachers or officials is a ritual that tends to support traditional forms of social hierarchy and authority (Bell, 1997 Bell, C. (1997). Ritual: Perspectives and dimensions. New York: Oxford University Press.). Traditionally, rural society in China is characterised by “rule by ritual”, or “rule by li” (lizi), as opposed to societies that are ruled mainly by law (Fei, 2012 Fei, X. (2012). From the soil: The foundation of Chinese society. Beijing: Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press [in both Chinese and English, first published in Chinese in 1947. Trans. G. G. Hamilton & W. Zheng, 1992]. [1947]). Lee, a head teacher in City A, told me a story that supports this claim. A friend told him that during a meeting an official had said: “Lee is arrogant. In his eyes, there are no others”. The friend asked Lee if he had offended the official, which Lee denied. The friend then asked if Lee had ever visited the official’s home with gifts. Lee demurred, because the official was not directly in charge of his school; in response, the friend told Lee that although the official was not directly in charge of Lee’s school, he still had some influence over it. The official was therefore upset because Lee had not shown him respect. Lee’s friend advised him to visit the official’s home to show his respect. Lee subsequently visited the official, taking some gifts, and since then, the official has not criticised Lee – indeed, he has praised his character. What the official was seeking from Lee was not only the material value of the gifts but also respect and personal loyalty. Rituals honour what is socially valued: so-called sacred objects. In modern societies, the foremost of these is the individual self, treated as if it were a little god in the minor presentational and avoidance rituals of everyday life (Goffman, 1967 Goffman, E. (1967). Interaction ritual: Essays on face-to-face behavior. Garden City, NY: Anchor. , p. 232). Many head teachers who participated in this research claimed that they needed to visit relevant officials with gifts regularly to maintain good guanxi, and similarly, many teachers visited their head teachers with gifts. The ritual of visiting with gifts is widely practised by those who work with officials, in order to show the official’s power on one hand and the personal loyalty of the subordinate on the other. Banqueting is another popular form of la guanxi. Traditionally, banqueting has been a ritual for showing respect and appreciation for one’s guests, or to celebrate certain events. Nowadays, banqueting is one of the most important forms of la guanxi. It becomes very instrumental and can provide the means to ask for a favour, creating renqing (indebtedness). Parents in the two cities studied here often wine and dine head teachers or officials in order to acquire a school place, and after obtaining the place, they may entertain their benefactors again in order to thank them. Banqueting is full of ritual – etiquette, politeness, propriety, and so on. Proper rituals are important during each stage of the process: for example, during the dinner, people lower down the hierarchy should serve others with food, soup and tea. If one practises ritual improperly at a banquet, one will get a bad reputation. Along with gift giving and banqueting, people give face to others when they la guanxi. Face (mianzi or lian) is a combination of a sense of moral imperatives, social honour and self-respect (Yang, 1994 Yang, M. M. (1994). Gifts, favors, and banquets: The art of social relationships in China. New York: Cornell University Press., p. 141). Doing face work includes showing off one’s power, networks and resources to attract others, and giving face in order to maintain good relationships and receive favours (Yang, 1994 Yang, M. M. (1994). Gifts, favors, and banquets: The art of social relationships in China. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 141). As Hwang (1987 Hwang, K. K. (1987). Face and favor: The Chinese power game. American Journal of Sociology, 92(4), 944–974., p. 962) writes, “Face work is also a method of manipulating the allocator’s choices of allocating resources to one’s benefit. Thus, doing face work is a power game frequently played by the Chinese people”. To practise ritual properly is important, since people may consider it as a way to gain face; and a failure to perform a ritual successfully may lead to a loss of face. It is vital to practise ritual properly in la guanxi, since “face work is about guanxi capital accumulation” (Bian, 2001 Bian, Y. J. (2001). Guanxi capital and social eating in Chinese cities. In N. Lin, K. S. Cook, & R. S. Burt (Eds.), Social capital: Theory and research (pp. 275–295). New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Publishers. , p. 227). People give face to others in many ways. They accept others’ requests for favours, agree with each other in meetings, give others support at work, avoid making others embarrassed, give “flattery gifts”, and so on. In some situations, even to entertain someone, to accept a dinner or party invitation, or to visit someone’s home can be a form of giving face. Mai, a teacher in City A, had to accept his colleague’s invitation to his father’s birthday party, even though Mai was extremely busy at the time. He considered that his attendance at the party gave face to his colleague, who would then support him at work and vote for him in Excellent Teacher selections. This ritual practice with face giving produces “mutually focused emotion and attention”, and results in the ritual outcomes of solidarity, symbolism and individual emotional energy (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press. , p. 67). If one engages in improper ritual in la guanxi, one may fail to gain social resources, and acquire a bad relationship or reputation. For example, gift giving requires much ritual and etiquette, in terms of the content, packaging, and the number or value of gifts, which should be carefully prepared and carried out – otherwise the gift recipient might be offended. Liu, a head teacher in City A, told me that a teacher at his school visited his home with a flattery gift of six apples in order to show respect and maintain good guanxi. Liu was very unsatisfied with the gifts, saying, “Eight is a lucky number; why didn’t she just buy two more apples? Ridiculous!” We can see here the possible consequences of unsuccessful gift giving: Liu was unhappy and might not be willing to do the teacher a favour next time. Although the value of gifts also matters in la guanxi, the ritual aspects of the gift, such as the quality and quantity, the colour and the packaging, are vital. The proper use of ritual largely improves the quality of guanxi and can be a productive social investment. The use of ritual to gain social resources seems to be one of the unique properties of la guanxi. Interestingly, when people use ritual to gain desired resources, they stress to their benefactors that their ritual practice is underpinned by Confucian ethical ideals, such as ren, yi and li; and they make every effort to show this moral and emotional intention when doing la guanxi. Ren refers to the ethical ideal, and li to certain traditional norms that govern human conduct (Liang, 2010 Liang, J. R. (2010). Ren verses Li: Reinterpretation and re-evaluation of Confucianism. [Chinese text.] Beijing: Peking University Press., pp. 29–46; Shun, 2002 Shun, K.-L. (2002). Ren and li in the Analects. In B. W. Van Norden (Ed.), Confucius and the Analects: New essay (pp. 53–72). Oxford: Oxford University Press., pp. 53–59). The concept of “li” is the rule of proper conduct, including etiquette and religious and moral rules (Shun, 2002 Shun, K.-L. (2002). Ren and li in the Analects. In B. W. Van Norden (Ed.), Confucius and the Analects: New essay (pp. 53–72). Oxford: Oxford University Press., pp. 53–59). Ren refers to inner spiritual development, which is the innate character of li. Li is the outer expression of ren, the instrument in the cultivation of ren, and can even be the measurement of ren (Liang, 2010 Liang, J. R. (2010). Ren verses Li: Reinterpretation and re-evaluation of Confucianism. [Chinese text.] Beijing: Peking University Press., pp. 29–46; Shun, 2002 Shun, K.-L. (2002). Ren and li in the Analects. In B. W. Van Norden (Ed.), Confucius and the Analects: New essay (pp. 53–72). Oxford: Oxford University Press., pp. 53–59; Tu, 1985 Tu, W.-M. (1985). Confucian thought. Albany: State University of New York Press., pp. 67–78). In simple terms, if one acts with propriety and proper rituals in order to achieve ren, one’s behaviour can be li – for example, giving gifts to parents in order to achieve xiao (filial piety), entertaining a friend from far away to achieve yi (righteousness), or bowing to supervisors to show zhong (loyalty). King (1991 King, A. Y.-C. (1991). Kuan-hsi and network building: A sociological interpretation. Daedalus, 120(2), 63–84., p. 74) explains that “renqing, in part, can be equated with the content of the Confucian li”. If a Chinese person is accused of “knowing no renqing”, this means that he/she is lacking li and is incapable of managing interpersonal relationships (King, 1991 King, A. Y.-C. (1991). Kuan-hsi and network building: A sociological interpretation. Daedalus, 120(2), 63–84., p. 74). La guanxi, as well as its norm – renqing ethic – is not true Confucian li because true li should come with the goal of achieving ren. With la guanxi, the so-called “Confucian li” is self-serving and not true li, since li should incorporate ren (Ruan, 2017b Ruan, J. (2017b). Ritual capital: A proposed concept from case studies of school selection in China. Asian Journal of Social Science, 45(3), 316–339., p. 318). Although the practice of li is usually observed in daily interaction rituals, some of these rituals, such as gift giving or banqueting to influence others to gain resources, may be driven by self-interest; thus, these social rituals should not be regarded as true li but as “fake li “ or “instrumental li”. That is to say, when doing la guanxi, people simply copy the forms of li in their ritual practice without the motivation of achieving ren but with self-interest in mind: they claim to be acting with li to justify their practice (Ruan, 2017b Ruan, J. (2017b). Ritual capital: A proposed concept from case studies of school selection in China. Asian Journal of Social Science, 45(3), 316–339., p. 318). Yan (1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press.) has argued that renqing is the ethic or norm of guanxi, which combines moral obligation, emotional attachment and rational calculation. Instrumental li seems to exaggerate the actors’ moral obligation and emotional attachment, and to mask their rational calculation. For example, in the context of la guanxi for school places in the two cities observed for this paper, gift donors and recipients both claim that their gift giving is a ritual that follows Confucian li, and that they practise lishang wanglai (courtesy demands reciprocity). Using the excuse of Confucian li, parents give gifts to head teachers or officials to obtain school places, which is actually instrumental li, or fake li, designed to cover their rational calculation. Ritual practice with instrumental li also frequently occurs when people give a payment to a friend or relative. Mai, a teacher, often gives extra tuition to his guanxis’ children, and his guanxis usually hide an envelope containing money in a bag of tea and give him tea as a gift. So, why do the guanxis not give money directly to Mai as payment for tuition? Fei (2012 Fei, X. (2012). From the soil: The foundation of Chinese society. Beijing: Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press [in both Chinese and English, first published in Chinese in 1947. Trans. G. G. Hamilton & W. Zheng, 1992]. [1947], p. 148) explains: Commerce cannot exist in an intimate consanguineous society. Although exchanges do take place in such a society, people exchange with renqing, by giving gifts to each other [showing the moral and emotional part of renqing]. If one does not practise these rituals properly, one may not only fail to achieve the desired outcome, but may also cause offence. From the perspective of interaction ritual theory, ritual produces shared emotion and awareness, solidarity, symbolism, individual emotional energy and social trust (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.; Durkheim, 1965 [1912] Durkheim, E. (1965 [1912]). The elementary forms of religious life. New York: Free Press.; Goffman, 1967 Goffman, E. (1967). Interaction ritual: Essays on face-to-face behavior. Garden City, NY: Anchor.). It follows from this that the investment of ritual can produce social capital. That is why people invest in ritual for school places in the two cities studied for this paper. Ritual is employed not only to get something done or acquire social resources, but also to improve ganqing, renqing and trust among actors, accumulating guanxi capital for further use. True guanxi cannot be established merely through one-off ritual practice or the one-time payment of a coarse bribe; the individuals must interact, exchange favours, and work over time to establish and maintain the relationship (Dunfee & Warren, 2001 Dunfee, T. W., & Warren, D. E. (2001). Is guanxi ethical? A normative analysis of doing business in China. Journal of Business Ethics, 32(3), 191–204., p. 192). In other words, a good guanxi relationship is built, not by independent rituals, but by “interaction ritual chains”, which represent the personal histories generated as individuals go through various ritual encounters within networks (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.). Interaction rituals may reaffirm previous truths or create new ones – they always create a chain connecting previous interaction rituals to future ones (Collins, 1998 Collins, R. (1998). The sociology of philosophies: A global theory of intellectual change. Cambridge: Harvard University Press.). New collective truths require a knowledge of previous collective symbols and the relationships through which they were created and distributed. These interaction ritual chains represent the personal histories generated as individuals go through various ritual encounters within networks. Without the personal histories of encounters, a stranger will not be able to obtain a school place from a head teacher just by visiting their home with gifts or even money. People need to go through their rituals and rites of passage, and they acquire a repertoire of symbols that are loaded with emotional energy and membership significance (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press., p. 67). Network ties, including guanxi networks, are a particular kind of interaction ritual chain, in which similar symbols and emotions are recycled and sometimes augmented. Positions in networks are created and sustained on the micro-level by the degree of success of interaction rituals (Collins, 2004 Collins, R. (2004). Interaction ritual chains. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press., pp. 185–188). In guanxi networks, renqing, ganqing and the quality of guanxi are not built by a single instance of ritual or by independent rituals, but by many instances of ritual, continuously connected. The case described below illustrates how an interaction ritual chain builds renqing, ganqing and trust between a teacher and an intermediary. Mai, a teacher at a senior high school in City A, told me that he used guanxi to gain a place in a key primary school for his nephew in 2010. Mai’s wife told him that an official, Jin, was her former classmate, and a good friend of the head teacher of the key school. Mai’s wife had not seen Jin for 20 years; however, they had many friends in common. So Mai and his wife invited Jin to dinner with a few other former classmates, and Mai sat close to Jin and got to know him. They are both smokers and like French brandy, and these common rituals of drinking and smoking brought them closer. Mai and Jin next met at Jin’s office, and then at Jin’s home, with Mai and his wife bringing some gifts. The fourth time they met was at Jin’s home, with Mai again bringing gifts – this time, Mai asked Jin to use his influence with the head teacher of the key school, and implied that he would give the head teacher an envelope containing money. By this time, Jin knew that Mai was a person who “knows renqing”, so he phoned the head teacher. Later, Mai and Jin visited the head teacher’s home taking gifts; a few weeks later, at Jin’s advice, Mai took an envelope containing some money to Jin’s office to meet the head teacher. When the head teacher came in, Jin excused himself to go to the toilet, allowing Mai to give the envelope to the head teacher without anyone else in the room. In the end, Mai secured a school place for his nephew. Jin, like Mai, was interviewed for this research. Jin told me he had helped Mai with a school place, and seemed proud of his ability to do so. He revealed that he had observed Mai’s ritual practice to see if he followed the expected renqing ethic. By deciding to help Mai, Jin could gain renqing for future use, which enhances his social capital. If Mai had not followed the renqing ethic, Jin would not have gained social capital by doing Mai a favour: in that case, Mai might have upset both Jin and the head teacher, and worse, run the risk of bribery accusations against the head teacher. In this case, however, every time Mai met Jin, he improved his guanxi capital because the collective symbols they both value facilitated subsequent interaction rituals. The interaction ritual chain consists of the process of la guanxi and social capital development. Before asking for a favour, Mai had been interacting with Jin for a month; afterwards, he maintained a long-term relationship with Jin and the head teacher by visiting them regularly with gifts. Their guanxi relationship can be more effectively used in the future due to their history of interaction ritual chains. Zhang, a teacher in City B, provided a further example: One of my colleagues was thinking of asking me to pay more attention to one of the students in my class who is her friend’s child, so she tried to talk to me more frequently, then gave me some compliments, gave me some small gifts, did me some small favours and tried to get closer to me. After taking these steps, finally, she told me that her friend’s child was in my class and asked me to pay more attention to him. Although Zhang clearly knows that the kindness demonstrated by her colleague is not pure, she feels indebted and is willing to do her colleague this favour: Zhang considers this a renqing exchange, and she may need her colleague to return the favour in the future. The rituals here make this exchange work, since they follow instrumental li and the renqing ethic, which both actors recognise and share. An interaction ritual used to ask for a favour will be more effective if previous rituals have been observed properly. In the cases reported above, both Mai and Zhang’s colleague clearly recognised that they did not have long-term guanxi with their expected benefactors before asking for the favour, so endeavoured to build interaction chains, thus preventing their practice from becoming a one-off transaction. Although a relationship may be cultivated with instrumental goals foremost in mind, the forms of renqing (mostly interaction ritual) must be followed if the goals are to be achieved, and the moral and emotional element of the relationship must be presented as primary with the exchanges treated as secondary. If it becomes apparent that the relationship involves only material interest, it may be characterised as bribery (Yang, 1989 Yang, M. M.-H. (1989). The gift economy and state power in China. Comparative Studies in Society and History, 31(1), 25–54., p. 48). “The More Distant the Less Significant” – The Pattern of Expressive Ritual It is necessary to distinguish between expressive and instrumental ritual. Expressive ritual is usually observed to express one’s real emotion and concern without much rational calculation, while instrumental ritual is usually performed for instrumental purposes (la guanxi) (Ruan, 2017a Ruan, J. (2017a). Guanxi, social capital and school choice in China: The rise of ritual capital. London: Palgrave Macmillan., p. 130). Many informants in the two cities give gifts to their friends and relatives, or invite them to dinner, as part of everyday life and without instrumental intention. Moreover, attending a friend’s birthday party, wedding or even funeral is usually expressive ritual. This type of guanxi practice is different from parents practising guanxi to gain school places, where they give gifts and/or invite their benefactor to dinner with a very clear instrumental purpose. This expressive ritual can also improve one’s ability to acquire resources. Sometimes an instrumental ritual used to ask a favour will become more effective if previous expressive rituals have been observed. Less instrumentally, people’s happiest and most rewarding hours are spent talking with neighbours, sharing meals with friends, participating in religious gatherings, attending celebration dinners for friends’ or relatives’ birthdays, weddings, or the birth of a new baby, or giving gifts and “good luck money” to friends and relatives on special occasions. In these activities, the practice of expressive ritual rather than instrumental ritual gradually improves the quality of guanxi. Yan (1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press.) examined both the dynamic process of cultivation of guanxi networks and their functions in everyday rural life. He states that “the closer to the centre in a given guanxi network, the more gift-giving relations are involved” (Yan, 1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press., p. 101). Moreover, he argues that “all instrumental gift-giving relations go beyond the village boundary”, which means that the gift giving of “the closer the more involved” is mainly expressive gift giving (Yan, 1996 Yan, Y. (1996). The flow of gifts: Reciprocity and social networks in a Chinese village. Stanford: Stanford University Press., p. 102). Many expressive rituals observed in this ethnographic study are consistent with Yan’s findings, and follow the pattern of “the more distant the less significant”. With the increase in social distance, people are less likely to be involved in, value and invest money and time on expressive ritual with their guanxi members. These expressive rituals include expressive gift giving, red packet giving, expressive banqueting, visiting a patient, and attending occasions such as weddings, childbirth celebrations and funerals. When Liu, a head teacher, was ill, all of his relatives visited him in hospital with red packets. He found that the closer the guanxi were, the more likely they were to visit him; and the closer the guanxi were, the more money they gave him. One parent, John, recalled his wedding and noted that closer guanxi gave more gifts and larger red packets. At the dinner celebrating the birth of John’s son, the closer guanxi were more likely to attend with red packets. “The more distant the less significant” pattern of expressive ritual practice seems to be a principle of renqing ethic familiar to everyone in the two researched cities. This pattern corresponds to Fei’s (2012 Fei, X. (2012). From the soil: The foundation of Chinese society. Beijing: Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press [in both Chinese and English, first published in Chinese in 1947. Trans. G. G. Hamilton & W. Zheng, 1992]. [1947]) identification of chauxgeju – the differential mode of association. It is sometimes difficult to distinguish between expressive and instrumental ritual, just as it is difficult to distinguish between expressive guanxi practice and la guanxi (Ruan, 2017a Ruan, J. (2017a). Guanxi, social capital and school choice in China: The rise of ritual capital. London: Palgrave Macmillan., p. 131). The motivation of people attending their supervisors’ weddings, birthday parties, or funerals for the supervisors’ parents could be expressive, or instrumental, or a combination of the two. Smart practitioners of guanxi are generally good at using expressive ritual activities, such as weddings and birthday parties, to develop ganqing (informants call this “ganqing investment”), so that they can ask for a favour in the future: this seems to be a more effective way of la guanxi. These rituals look like expressive rituals but are, in fact, instrumental ones. Nevertheless, whether expressive or instrumental, ritual practice can enhance one’s social capital if performed in the proper way. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full...63?src=recsys&
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06-25-2018, 08:19 AM | #349 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
I was thinking that it might not be a good idea for Drake to challenge aron for "credible sources."
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06-25-2018, 08:25 AM | #350 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
The public interface between Titus Chu and Witness Lee was ritualistic. I saw it. One clearly 'lost face', prefacing his statement with the words, "I am ashamed. . . " Guess which one that was?
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06-25-2018, 08:34 AM | #351 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
The other thing to keep in mind is, once one breaks the guanxi network, the reciprocal web of mutual obligations, there is no going back. There is no "ministry of reconciliation" that can repair the breach of etiquette. Thus it's holding power.
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06-25-2018, 10:57 AM | #352 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Quote:
Asian "guanxi" culture at LSM has expunged all leadership accountability in the LC's.
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06-25-2018, 11:09 AM | #353 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Quote:
In the encyclopedia Britannica wannabe of guanxi that you posted in this thread there is nothing that validates your claim. Yet, perhaps I missed it buried in all the text. So, please provide the actual text that supports your claim. Drake |
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06-25-2018, 01:32 PM | #354 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Taylor and Francis is not a credible source? Then what is? Is this LC-speak where "proper" means published or promoted by LSM? And what is so outrageous about my claim that Asian culture influences the LC? Is every religious group on earth tainted by fallen human culture except yours?
How is it that the leader of a group does something so obviously self-contradictory and yet membership doesn't make a peep? What else could be at work here, but fallen human culture? Did or did not Watchman Nee visit Elizabeth Fishbacher to see what was what, spiritually speaking? And if so, and if they continued in spiritual fellowship beyond that point, are we not remiss if we don't ask why the supposed apostle of the age was seeking spiritual aid and counsel from a woman? The answer in the LC is that the apostle of the age can make his own rules; today's Moses, as it were. Women can't teach, unless the 'apostle' wants to appropriate something, then Mary MacDonough recovers the three parts of man! How could a woman do that? Because it's advantageous to the selfish narrative. That, however, isn't biblical, but fallen human culture, and it lines up well with what we know of the oriental mindset vis-a-vis authority. And we western yokels thought it was spiritual. It was not. Either women can teach, and the LC is spiritually bankrupt, or they can't teach, and the LC is spiritually bankrupt. Take your pick.
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06-25-2018, 05:51 PM | #355 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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aron, I did not say Taylor and Francis were not credible. What you posted by them did not support the assertion you made in post #16 in the first sentence. Drake |
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06-26-2018, 03:39 AM | #356 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
This thread was on Training- whether to attend, or not? My point has been, who would want to get trained by this group? Their teachings and practices are clearly contradictory. I mentioned the role of women as an example, not the only one by any means, but one of the more curious ones. Yet no one says a word. Why? Culture. And yes, this was strongly conditioned by the culture of origin. China was not "virgin soil" but had 5,000 years of social conditioning in their society.
I have named names - the women who were touted in the official organs of the group as lionesses of the recovery in its first few decades. Margaret Barber, a "Miss Groves", Peace Wang, Ruth Lee. . . well over a half dozen names of you include the influences coming in from abroad like Guyon, MacDonough and Penn-Lewis. By contrast, how many lionesses has the group advanced in the past 40 years? Zero. One must be assidiously trained in non-thought to miss this kind of obvious discrepancy. Well-practiced in the art of mindless oblivion.
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06-26-2018, 05:56 AM | #357 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Wasn't there a song, "Where have all the cowboys gone?" They got Quarantined! Talk about contradictions. They teach inclusion, they practice exclusion.
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06-26-2018, 07:21 AM | #358 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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I asked you for a specific response to a specific assertion you made in your first sentence in post #16. Now you’ve generalized your response into ever expanding circles of irrelevant mental meandering. Probably a defense mechanism has kicked in to facilitate your not answering the specific outrageous assertion. So please, go back to your post #16, read the first sentence, clarify what you were specifically referring to there, and then provide a credible reference to validate that specific assertion. Thanks Drake |
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06-26-2018, 07:27 AM | #359 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Ok, to Post #16. Titus Chu would bow and scrape (Kowtow) to Witness Lee. I was there, I saw it. But later, post 1997, he wouldn't bow and scrape to Blendeds Wee. I say that is Asian Culture. Same happened with Dong Yu Lan (though I don't have direct visual evidence). The Beta Dog (Chu, Dong) is willing to Lose Face to the Alpha Male (Lee), but not to the Gamma Males. In this case the social dynamics have a distinctive Chinese "flavor". Not sure why such assertions are "outrageous". I think it's outrageous that a group could allow a teacher to pass such contradictory practices on to members, and force them into such a state of non-thought. Just ignore everything but the Bullet Points of this weeks HWMR. But I apologize if my tone is caustic. As Paul said, "I wish I could change my tone". Gal 4:20. Like Paul with the Galatians, I suspect the flock has been seriously misled, and hope for positive change in the future. But there are serious structural issues with this church, many caused by the uncritical reception of fallen human culture. So I point out the culture.
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06-26-2018, 07:32 AM | #360 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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And yet they lionize the pioneers like Margaret Barber and Ruth Lee. Out of the other side of their mouths, of course.
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06-26-2018, 07:54 AM | #361 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Sister Barber supposedly "recovered" the lost art of perfecting the brothers via public rebukes and humiliations. Can I have a verse? This became the standard ingrained leadership practice of Nee, Lee, and Chu.
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06-26-2018, 07:58 AM | #362 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Please provide a credible source that substantiates your above assertion that this behavior is Asian culture and a “Chinese” flavor. Not looking for an encyclopedia, Aron. Drake |
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06-26-2018, 10:04 AM | #363 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Drake,
Sorry but aron himself IS A CREDIBLE SOURCE. He had been a devout member of the Local Church of Witness Lee for many years. He also has gained huge credibility on this forum for his measured, sensible and decidedly informative posts on this forum for about a decade now. Now why wouldn't a religious group's "behavior" and culture be heavily influence by it's founder and the culture it was born in? The Calvary Chapel movement is heavily influenced by the person and work of Chuck Smith and the American Jesus Movement culture it was born in. Same goes for the Vineyard movement, except you can replace Smith with John Wimber. Same goes for any number of Christian movements/ministries around the world. So why would the Local Church be excluded from cultural influences? The vehement claims of Witness Lee and his followers notwithstanding, the Local Church/Recovery movement is most certainly not excluded nor immune from such influences. Now let's return to the original quip that apparently got your feathers so ruffled: Quote:
Ta Da! I know that you are desperate to make an end run on this one. (trying to "duck" the real issue at hand, are we?) There is a reason why quite a number of Christian apologists and other keen observers have said many of the things that aron and others have said. The Local Church of Witness Lee screams out "We are of Lee!" "We are of and for this Chinese fellow and anything he says!" "We have one of strongest cultures you could imagine but we really don't have culture!" (just like we don't have permanent and official leadership!) -
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06-26-2018, 11:57 AM | #364 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
-1
UntoHim, Aron is a credible resource anecdotally. For that matter so am I. So is everyone. I have no objection to what you said. Of course culture is ingrained in us. Everybody has culture be it American, German, Chinese. etc. and sometimes it oozes out all over. My objection was that aron claimed that in Asian culture the more one is abused and mistreated the more complaint they become. He witnessed it. Well, its okay to witness and have an opinion about how to interpret what you witnessed but at the point he stated "it is Asian culture" then I ask for a credible source to validate that assertion. If he cannot provide one then the reader can decide whether it is a fact or just his opinion. Anecdotally, I have worked with most of the Asian cultures professionally in person and onsite for decades..... PRC China, Hong Kong, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Vietnam, India, and the Philippines, I never saw any, not one, Asian become compliant when confronted, spoken to harshly or disrespectfully, face to face, in writing, or through an interpreter, To do so is the kiss of death as far as relationships are concerned. Furthermore, I have worked for Asian companies, on the payroll, and I also can testify that Asian managers, just like their American counterparts, do not achieve a compliant and productive workforce, orfrom subordinates, by abuse or mistreatment. Anymore, than as occurs in any other ethnic group. I am not saying people do not have their own distinct culture and that it doesn't carry over into their work or ministry... I am saying that there is no evidence from a credible objective source, and I have studied this matter for professional reasons, that suggests Asians become complaint when they are abused and mistreated because it is a cultural thing with them. That is outrageous. If aron had said that as an employee of any multinational corporation he would be hauled into HR and have some serious splain'in to do. But, this isn't a multinational corporation, aron is not an employee, and he can say whatever he wants, he can makes things up, or he can play off of false racial stereotypes which he has done more than once in this forum. I'm not put off by that but I don't have to sit by and let false assertions go by unchallenged. Therefore, I asked him for a credible source to substantiate that specific assertion. Drake |
06-26-2018, 01:49 PM | #365 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Drake, my friend, you are still dodging the crux of the matter.
You have called aron's claims "outrageous". What is outrageous is your dismissive and back-handed comment about him being a "credible resource anecdotally". "Anecdotally"? For years you have played the "bitter ex member" card again and again and again. It's your answer for every claim and challenge against Witness Lee and the religion he invented. (and no, you haven't used this exact term...yet...but your headed that way...you always do) Look, I personally couldn't care less about quanxi or the quanxi network...it's TMI to me. (I'm not dissing aron...just starting from here to make a point) Most of us don't need any in-depth studies about Asian cultural norms to know for a fact that the Local Church of Witness Lee is steeped in Chinese/Asian culture and has been since the beginnings. Insiders know this. Many outsiders know this. Even you're buddy Hank Hanegraaff called the Local Church "a Chinese interpretation of Christianity" (paraphrase). I believe this is really all that aron is saying. Sure, he is embellishing, which is a totally legitimate argumentative tool as far as I'm concerned (after all, it's pretty much all that Witness Lee ever did!) So you admit that Lee and the movement are affected by Asian culture. Good. So what's the problem? -
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06-26-2018, 02:32 PM | #366 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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And how can so many people so studiously ignore the yawning chasm between what's been pronounced versus what's actually done? What fallen human culture is involved, here?
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06-26-2018, 02:42 PM | #367 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Asian culture is not inferior to any other. It has worked for thousands of years. But it is not divine. So, why would any Christian want to get trained by this group?
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06-26-2018, 03:56 PM | #368 |
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Making sense of it all
I've been on this forum a while, and have interacted with many other posters. So I have some observational data to draw on.
I've repeatedly noted the discrepancy between the official LC "women can't teach in the Church" policy and Watchman Nee's actual experience. The founder of the group that won't let women teach got a major part of his teaching, experience and practice directly from women! And not merely one or two but nearly a bakers dozen over a couple decades. Now, doesn't this strike anyone as odd? It does to me. I have given several active and opinionated posters ample opportunity to square this issue up. Not only do they not do so, but one seems to go to lengths not to pay attention to what I'm writing. Now what gives? Did these women who Nee sourced get some special dispensation? Or, did Nee get a special dispensation to draw upon otherwise forbidden sources? Should we say, "Women can't teach unless they teach the apostle of the age?" My question here has been, Who would want to be trained by such a nutty group? Who would want any of their codes, up to and including their dress code? Back to culture - let me contrast the LC experience with an American group, otherwise quite similar. The International Churches of Christ. Another aggressive, insular group. But the leader's daughter went atheist and they kicked out the leader, because Paul said the leader must have believing children. So, too bad. Now, that's the way Americans treat their leaders. But not the Chinese, and not the Chinese-flavored Americans. If Ron Kangas ever critiqued Nee for receiving help from "spiritual sisters" the whole edifice would collapse. It's simply unthinkable to publicly criticize the Top Leader. So they invent non-Christian terms, like today's Moses and today's Paul . This tries to cover their fallen human culture.
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06-26-2018, 04:38 PM | #369 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Of course, I am familiar with the whole "losing face" concept. I dealt with the stereotype firsthand throughout my career. In reality, it is no different in any culture. I cannot think of a single person in any culture that wants to "lose face". I can't think of any manager or leader that wants to be embarrassed over something. I can't think of any subordinate that wants to be wrong and "lose face". I can't think of any person in this forum that wants to "lose face". Its not an Asian thing. Americans do not want to "lose face". Europeans do not want to "lose face". Neither Africans nor South Americans. Irish and Scots will not "lose face". You are closer when you say it is a human thing. Your original assertion that abuse and mistreatment will lead to compliance as an Asian thing is misguided at best. Plug in that false assertion to the "losing face" discussion above and the outcome is the same. It seems to me, that you are playing off stereotypes to build your anti-anything-local-church narrative. Its your MO, isn't it? Drake |
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06-26-2018, 05:04 PM | #370 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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aron has a free reign in this forum to leverage stereotypes about Asian culture because Brother Lee was Chinese by birth. He gets a free pass, he gets kudos, the crowd roars its approval. Good for him, he has his audience. This isn't his first rodeo act. However, I am almost a 95% confident that if he were using, in a similar fashion, common stereotypes about African Americans or Latinos or Jews that you would exercise more guidance over him or anyone else who did that. It is not just negative stereotypes that impugn a persons character or motives. Any stereotype about Asians or otherwise can be used in a negative way. Aron is not lightheartedly talking about eating sea cucumbers. nor is he valuing diversity of cultures, and I'm not asking him to,, or you or anyone else to either ..... but in how he uses Asian and Chinese culture to make his points in this forum.. well, the subtlety is not lost.... at least on me Drake |
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06-26-2018, 05:20 PM | #371 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Remember how Lee dealt with Max, who had the audacity to confront Philip for molesting that sister at LSM's new Ball Road offices?
Instead of agreeing with Max, thanking him for standing for righteousness and protecting the sisters, because of "face" Lee could never allow that. Face trumped righteousness. So how did Lee react? Prayer and fellowship? No! Hardly. Instead, Lee shamed Max's wife Sandee. Old Chinese custom of dealing with an "opponent."
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06-26-2018, 05:49 PM | #372 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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And I repeat for the umpteenth time, Chinese culture is not inferior to American or any other. But it is not divine.
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06-26-2018, 06:18 PM | #373 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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There are brothers functioning as deacons.....but they get called "leading brothers" or "responsible brothers" or "helping brothers" (among other similar phrases). But never the actual word which is in the Bible, deacons! Then I realized......if you use the word "deacon", then the next logical question is "and who are the deaconesses?", since both are Biblical. One way to avoid having women in any official, labeled, position of responsibility is by calling their male counterparts by a specialized name not found in the Bible. No "deacons", then no question about "deaconesses"! I realized when at least half of the church in any given locality is female, how can their specific needs be met when no female can be in any position of responsibility and none of their words, feelings, or sense carries any weight in any matters concerning the church being fellowshipped? |
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06-26-2018, 07:35 PM | #374 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Trapped, you seem to be thinking in clergy terms... title-ish. I have heard the term deacons used but it really just refers to serving ones, the most used term. And serving ones also includes brothers or sisters. Elders is a term that is used to refer to... well elders... but even then not as a formal title..... not like “Hi, I’m Elder Buzz! Nice to meet you.” but like “there will be an elders meeting in Harold’s VW van this Saturday “. Anyway, serving one replaces deacons and deaconess and means the same thing. Drake |
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06-26-2018, 08:35 PM | #375 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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It goes like this -- deacon bad, serving one good. But what's the difference between "an elders meeting in Harold’s VW van this Saturday," and ITERO (international training of elders and responsible ones), besides scope? Change the name and pretend we have a better mousetrap! Besides are not we in the "recovery?" We be good, they be bad.
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06-26-2018, 09:02 PM | #376 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Regarding Chinese customs, there is a reason that Chinese dynasties went back 5 millennia. No other culture on earth has the ingredients which would allow this to happen. We could make a case for the "Nee dynasty" in China, and the "Lee dynasty" in Taiwan and the US. This whole MOTA characterization is both a guise and a proof of this. TC often told us that the "mistakes of my spiritual father are none of my business." This sounds all good and even noble until one realizes just how far reaching these "mistakes" would go. Apparently for TC these "mistakes" also included corrupt business dealings, investment boondoggles, and crimes by Lee's sons Philip and Timothy. But who was TC responsible to? Was it not to the Lord and to the people under his care? Was he not responsible to warn us? Since when do loyalties like this extend exclusively to a MOTA? When Chinese culture demanded it.
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06-27-2018, 01:17 AM | #377 | |||
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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06-27-2018, 08:12 AM | #378 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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But, that is not what you are saying or implying. What you said by way of example of Asian culture in the churches, something you “witnessed” firsthand between WL and TC, is that abuse and mistreatment by leaders results in compliance by subordinates. I said that was outrageous. There is no credible evidence that such a behavior is unique to Asian culture nor is it a practice or norm in the local churches. If you detected anything of deference between Brother Lee and Brother Titus it based on the latter regarding the former as a spiritual father. That is not Asian, that is New Testament (1 Corinthians 4:15). Neither is it abuse and mistreatment for a spiritual father to speak frankly to a spiritual son and shepherd him. My birth father said things to me that he never said to my friends. He also disciplined me out of love. That is neither abuse or mistreatment. In defense of your argument you cited, I suppose as proof that Asian culture has unique things in it, the “lose face” concept. Well, no one in any culture likes to lose face so that does not add any credibility to your argument. Every culture has certain characteristics, that is what makes them distinct, and those cultural things can be a frustration to the Lord. Being cognizant of them helps us to drop them in practice to be one with other members in the Body though they be of a different background and to take Christ in every situation. Now, you suggested as a result of your constructs discussed above, now shown to be misguided and erroneous all, that the local churches are culturally Asian or Chinese. First, the ecclesiology of the local churches is not from China, it is from the New Testament. Second, the center is Christ and the mission is the building of the Body that Christ may be all and in all. That is not Asian. The practices are not Chinese either, they are lifted from the New Testament too. Imagine that. If you disagree with any of that then you could make your case from the Bible because that is their source. As you consider that, consider this as well. Are Protestant Christians following German culture because Luther was born German? Are the truths in the Bible revealed to the Brethren based on British culture? Is the practice of meeting in brotherly love Moravian? Throughout history God has moved through men and women with varied backgrounds and cultures to accomplish His purpose as He wills. I would be glad to debate each and any of those with you. Instead you take the anecdotal path which goes something like this..... Asians abuse and mistreat others to gain their compliance, Brother Lee was Asian and was Brother Titus, Titus was compliant so he must have been abused and mistreated by Brother Lee. Brother Lee was born Chinese so as the leader in the Lords recovery he imposed his culture on the local churches, for proof see the Titus compliance example. What was really Chinese culture was presented as divine and so the local churches are really just Chinese culture masquerading as a Christian group. Oh, and just be clear, I also have nothing against Asians or Chinese. Feel free to clarify if I missed something but that is what I hear you say. Drake |
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06-27-2018, 08:22 AM | #379 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
Quote:
Here is what I witnessed: in a meeting, the "senior brothers" sat in a section to Witness Lee's left. (probably some were on his right as well, but I remember my strong impression was that the more "august" members of Lee's cohort were on his left). Lee was holding forth on "the new way" how to gain and shepherd new ones, and suddenly he stopped, looked toward his left, and said sharply, "Brother Titus, is this how it's being done in Cleveland?" Chu stood up solemnly, looked straight ahead, and said, "I am ashamed to admit that this is not how it's being done in Cleveland", then stiffly sat down. Lee turned back and continued his message. To me that looked like public shaming and quasi-formal or ritualistic 'losing face'. Maybe your conclusions are different. You can couch it in as many spiritual platitudes as you want. "Building the Body" and "brotherly love" and "shepherding". I saw what I saw, and have my opinion. You have yours.
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06-27-2018, 08:35 AM | #380 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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For decades they have condemned the entire body of Christ for having "titles" thus creating so called "hierarchies." They claimed that only TLR is free from this dreaded disease of the "clergy-laity" system. "We are all brothers," they boldly proclaim, as they exalt the books and teachings of Nee and Lee. Nothing could be further from the truth. In the LCM, the LSM and their paid staff all dwell on a higher plane than those merely associated with the LC's. Anyone from LSM HQs is above even church elders. Elders are constantly in fear lest they get reported back to HQ's as not being sufficiently supportive of their many programs, always called the "move of the Lord." How dare any LC eldership have an event which interferes with LSM's schedule. Their PR message is duplicitous demagoguery. One day they claim to be "humble servants at a book publisher," and the next day they elevate themselves as Popes, the Vicar of Christ on earth, ruling their little kingdom as despots. So Drake mocks the elders who gathered for prayer in "Harold's VW van" perhaps because of some domestic emergency in one of their families, but then he exalts their ITERO gathering at some luxurious resort like Whistler. How much better they are, sitting around condemning "poor, poor, Christianity!" And "thank God we are not like those pathetic elders huddling in a VW van for prayer and fellowship." You have your reward.
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06-27-2018, 08:42 AM | #381 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
-2 aron
Right. You are drawing a conclusion from a single personal data point as you say. All other data points are hearsay, not firsthand, at least from your perspective. Shaming must be part of American culture too because I saw on more than one occasion managers challenge their subordinates in public whether they had accomplished their goals. That wasn’t hearsay either, I really saw it firsthand. But wait, on another occasion I witnessed a manager criticize his employee publicly... they were Italian so shaming must be Italian... Shaming must be part of German culture too because history shows.... etc, etc, I saw a Brit once.... Well, you get the picture. Drake |
06-27-2018, 08:55 AM | #382 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
So you justify Lee's bad behavior claiming that he is just like everybody else.
For good reasons like this, Truthseeker should not attend the FTT! .
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06-27-2018, 09:30 AM | #383 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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That is not Asian, German, or American -- that is just wrong! Let's call it what it really is -- the Bully Pulpit. Regardless of how Drake likes to spin this, LC leaders (from M.E. Barber to Nee to Lee to TC to whoever) regularly used public shaming for one reason -- to continually remind their followers who is in charge. It's goal, pure and simple, is the maintenance of power. That may be fine, even necessary, in the military, but has no place in the church, which is His body. Jesus Himself, when He saw this behavior among His disciples, nipped it in the bud. He warned them that they should never "rule as the Gentiles do." (Matt 20.25; Mark 10.42; Luke 22.25) The LCM not only did not get this memo, they built it up into their definitive practice.
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06-27-2018, 11:09 AM | #384 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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During leadership training, we tell our business clients, "Praise in public; Discipline (these days we actually say "coach") in private." To do otherwise is a fear based tactic which will likely just produce short-term results. Disciplining in public does little more than build the ego at the expense of the other person - again, short term thinking. Definitely NOT the servant leadership model we see in Christ! I was speaking with a brother over dinner last night about how Bill Freeman received the boot from the LC. I was told that in 1986 he was called to southern Cal and given a chair in the middle of the room, where he was ringed by a large group of elders. They proceeded to accuse him of various things. According to what I heard he didn't reply much. Right after that, he left the LC, and a few years later the Scottsdale church was formed. I suppose in this instance it was not one person acting as judge, jury and executioner - but was WL actually orchestrating the whole thing? (I'm not sure what the accusations were about, but I suppose they were around two main things: Bill's ministry being independent of LSM, and possibly also around his wife's "nonproductive" activities. I plan to ask about this tomorrow and will report - unless someone already knows the answer . . .) |
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06-27-2018, 12:19 PM | #385 | ||
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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06-27-2018, 04:23 PM | #386 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Couple of points on the above. First, were you ever in a meeting with Brother Lee? Training or conference or conversed with him around a table in a small group or spoke with the man one on one? If not, then do not believe everything you hear in this forum. There is another side. I have had those opportunities and the Witness Lee in this forum is not the Witness Lee I had the pleasure to know. If Brother Lee was anywhere near like the monster folks paint him as in this forum then no one would be there. But, I want to challenge your idea about public confrontation. Not shaming but challenging. Not purposely embarrassing someone for the sake of embarrassment but that all may learn. I will use myself as an example. A most valuable lesson and teaching I learned was from a public question and answer.. in this case, it was an exchange between Brother Lee and yours truly. It was at least as direct as the incident mentioned between Brother Lee and Brother Titus. He asked a question in a meeting and I offered an answer..... the answer was the wrong one and I knew it as soon as it left my lips. Also, at that very moment the Light went on and I had the Lord's shining. There was a little more public exchange but here is what I will share with you. I have had many wonderful experiences of Christ in my christian life and most of them in the local churches....and some of them, that one in particular, came out from a direct and frank public exchange. I am certain others learned from it, but none as much as I. And I treasure the experience of Christ I gained from it. Immediately following this I had a discussion of a personal nature with Brother Lee.... and I can testify that he was most gracious and caring and a offered sincere and heartfelt counsel. Yet, what does the Bible show about this? Was the Lord direct with his disciples, with Peter when he called him Satan? Was Paul too confrontational with Peter when he separated himself from the Gentiles? Was Paul shaming others in his letters to the churches, calling out certain brothers for their divisive thinking, doctrine, or practice? I do not say Paul was uncivil, slanderous, or reviling. He was civil, frank, direct, even when he administered discipline to members of a local church. In fact, I think to be silent when we should speak is playing politics and it is not Christ. Drake |
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06-27-2018, 08:47 PM | #387 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Drake, Yyyyyyyyyeahh........I am not referring to official titles. I am not thinking and do not think in clergy terms. I am well aware there are no titles. I am talking about descriptive terms used to refer to people who carry out the functions of that word. Even as you said, "elder" is not a title. It is a description of that person's function (just like "church in..." is not the name or title, it is just the description). However, Nee does say there are only two offices in the church – that of elder and that of deacon. And deacons are also appointed in the course of their natural manifestation. So while it is not an official title, deacons are actually “appointed” and therefore “officially” deacons. Not in official title, but in appointed function. (And in communication we do have to use words and terms for things and people, or else we are up a creek.) So for a group who tries to do everything so tightly according to the Bible, it is odd that the term "deacon" is not generally used, especially when there is even a specific portion in the word describing the qualifications for one. We have “elders” because it is in the Bible, why not “deacon”? You mentioned “serving one” and said that it covers deacons and deaconesses. Personally I would disagree on the grounds that "serving one" is used too broadly and can include saints who do not hold the qualifications of a deacon as described in the Bible, and moreover are not necessarily appointed. At one point or another most saints can end up being a "serving one" in some capacity, whether briefly or longer term. Under the large umbrella of "serving one", however, some can be deacons in function. (In other words, not all serving ones are deacons, but all deacons are serving ones). Yes, in some LCs there are females who serve in certain specific capacities and who therefore do perform the functions of a deaconess. Why then, if these functions exist among the saints, are the Biblical terms not used to describe them? One realization I had was that to use the term "deacon" would then support the use of the term "deaconess", and having any female termed, or, yes, “appointed”, anything special in the local churches is a no-no. (I do not mean "special" in the sense of being above anyone else. Deacons/esses serve the saints; they are not there to be "over" the saints in a negative way). You said you have heard the term deacon used. I have never heard the term deacon used myself, but accept that there may be LC's where it is used, although I have to suspect that that is a rare occurrence. |
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06-28-2018, 03:19 AM | #388 | |
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Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Who got to be civil, frank and direct with Witness Lee when son Philip was caught repeatedly molesting the sisters at LSM offices? Who got to shepherd, perfect, or correct Lee when all the money invested by LC attendees into son Timothy's motor home business disappeared, and the church members were told to consider it a donation? Did Saul Benoit get to be frank with Lee? Did the elders in Anaheim? Did anyone? Who administered discipline to Witness Lee? No, "fellowship" and "discipline" in the LC was a one-way street, a "normal Christian church life" only for those steeped in oriental cultural norms and expectations. News flash: Witness Lee was not Jesus, sinless and perfected forever; rather, he was a sinner like the rest, only placed in "untouchable" status by his cultural expectations. And the result was ruinous. Not building but dividing and collapse. Aka "turmoil, storms and rebellions" - I heard these terms coming into the LC, and now I've some idea from whence they derived. Who would want to be indoctrinated into such a system? Additionally, for all the "kind older brother" and "begetting father" stories from the LC, there are ones like Ned Nossaman and Bill Mallon who speak of the tyrannical outbursts. See, e.g., the testimony in post #55, below; note that such behaviours are seen as acceptable, necessary even, from a particular societal standpoint. But it isn't a heavenly society but rather an earthly one. So everyone except Witness Lee had to be silent and play politics as you noted in your post. Only Lee got to be frank; everyone else had to be political.
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06-28-2018, 06:00 AM | #389 | |
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Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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But I think the reason may be simpler than you describe. Assuming there is a conscious effort to not use the term “deacon” or “deaconess” it would more likely stem from the fact that the descriptor has been used and spoiled by institutional Christianity were it is a title, it is an official associated with the clergy class.... little deacon became big Deacon. That explanation would be consistent with the teachings and practices of the local churches and to avoid inadvertently creating classes in the local churches. Yet, I have no proof that is why or how this low key use of the term deacon came about. I rather think it is because serving one is the meaning of the Greek diakonos. Just like we don’t use the term “called out assembly” but rather a vernacular expression ....”church”. Drake |
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06-28-2018, 06:14 AM | #390 | |
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Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Part of your post above is a fair argument. But frankly, much of it is shallow talking points and those overshadow any reasonable point you might have made. I’m sure you know that so I wonder why you wallow your argument the mire as part of its presentation. Drake |
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06-28-2018, 08:06 AM | #391 | |
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Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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The facts of history have destroyed your flawed attempts at justifying Lee's bully tactics, and spinning them to appear like anything that resembles the New Testament.
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06-28-2018, 10:03 AM | #392 | ||
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Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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https://www.amazon.com/My-Unforgetta...e+memories+hsu The comments on this forum were mostly like, "See! He confessed! Guilty!" My reply was, "How many trials in the PRC in the 1950s did you see someone plead not guilty, mount a defense, and get exonerated and walk free? How many?" I couldn't find any. I did some searches on the PRC criminal system... there, it's like this: the "State" is right, you're a "criminal" and are wrong. End of story. You wouldn't be accused if you weren't guilty! My point was, and remains, that in Chinese culture that's considered "due process"; those who fight the system get worse punishment, so why fight? It's how social order is maintained. Do we in the west agree? No, but it certainly is effective. So Witness Lee was acting according to type when he summarily 'executed' some of his LC members for 'crimes' real and imagined. Matthew 18:15-20 wasn't thought of - his family or business was at stake and suddenly he was acting like a typical Chinese businessman. That fit his "normal Christian church life" model (and yes I'm punning by quoting the title of Nee's book). Quote:
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06-28-2018, 11:31 AM | #393 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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I have received blessings from the Lord through this brother. But in the end, that's all he was - a brother. A brother with vision but also warts, just like the rest of us. The promise and hope in Christ, is that He is faithful to remove all those warts. We're all in process. But when one man gets elevated, church history shows over and over what happens. No difference here. Last edited by Sons to Glory!; 06-28-2018 at 01:55 PM. Reason: Clarity |
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06-28-2018, 01:35 PM | #394 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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I did attend plenty of Lee's speakings, if that counts for anything. But all that wouldn't turn me off to Lee. Lee was as human as the rest of us. What turned me off to Lee was when he started thinking of himself more than he ought. When it came down from Anaheim that Lee was the one and only apostle on the earth, and the oracle of God and authority of God, then I knew that Lee had gone off the rails. Then Lee was claiming that he wasn't as human as the rest of us. He was better. So maybe there are some slanderous scurrilous libel against Lee out here. Maybe not. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the record has Jesus saying something like, "those who exalt themselves will be humbled." Lee exalted himself, and is now being humbled. Get use to it bro Drake. You'll get over man worship sooner or later ... hopefully. I'll pray for you.
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06-28-2018, 03:30 PM | #395 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Too much Chinese can be a real problem. Some local churches they are trying hard to reduce the Chinese influence. Examples include banning Chinese from being spoken in the meetings and making the pot lucks western instead of Chinese. They also split the churches and West and East meet separately. Promoting Western not Chinese elders. Also giving the Chinese instructions in personal hygiene and good manners.
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06-28-2018, 03:37 PM | #396 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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I am used to it. And there is no man worship. I regard Brother Lee as a servant of the Lord. He put is pants on one leg at a time. He made mistakes. We all do. The Lord revealed much to me over the past 4 decades and Brother Lee's ministry was instrumental to those experiences of Christ. And yet, a normal regard for Brother Lee seems like worship to those that loathe the very ground the man walked on and the air that he breathed. I get that. Drake |
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06-28-2018, 03:43 PM | #397 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Drake |
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06-28-2018, 04:08 PM | #398 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
-1
Except Lee clearly wasn't interested in due process either, and he wasn't Communist by any measure. So much for that theory. And guess who's the last major Communist hold-out today? Russia? Eastern bloc nations? No, it's China. Hey! What do you know? But there's no connection with that country's culture, right? Just a coincidence, I'm sure. Still, an interesting coincidence. And notice that even decades after their deaths one may not point out either Mao's failures, nor those of Lee. Maybe a generic, "mistakes were made", but nothing specific. Don't correct the Big Guy! Don't make them lose face. But that's just coincidence, right? Nothing to do with shared Chinese culture.
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06-28-2018, 04:24 PM | #399 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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06-28-2018, 04:38 PM | #400 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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China has been around for 4000 years. How long has Communism been around in China? You are making correlations where there are none. Your arguments start with your end point and you work backwards from there ending up with odd and unsubstantiated correlations that have no basis in fact. Drake |
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06-28-2018, 04:43 PM | #401 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Secondly, if you don't like ex-members addressing the excessive exaltation which Lee received in the LC's, then why do you falsely claim that members "loathe the very ground the man walked on and the air that he breathed." Please define for us what you would consider a "normal regard" for Brother Lee? I have a problem calling just about anything at LSM "normal."
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06-28-2018, 04:44 PM | #402 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-28-2018, 04:48 PM | #403 |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
But did not Witness Lee teach us that not even God could forgive sins without a repentance. (I John 1.9)
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06-28-2018, 04:49 PM | #404 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Chinese dynasties were communistic long before they were called communist.
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06-28-2018, 05:57 PM | #405 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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How come Lee didn't follow the Matthew 18 guidelines? Was he exempt? "Today's Moses" gets to write his own laws? The only sins I can see Lee forgiving and covering up were those of his immediate family. Everyone else had a different set of rules. Apparently this discrepancy needs to be pointed out - some folks seem to be trying hard not to notice. So I'm just helping them out by breaking the fetters of blindness.
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06-28-2018, 06:01 PM | #406 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Those who don't forgive don't get forgiven. God is willing to forgive. Are the Blinders willing to repent?
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06-28-2018, 07:23 PM | #407 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-28-2018, 08:32 PM | #408 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-28-2018, 08:47 PM | #409 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-28-2018, 08:49 PM | #410 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-28-2018, 09:12 PM | #411 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Surely the Lord's recovery can "recover" the proper use of the word deacon But this isn't an issue that keeps me up and night, and like you said, at the moment we have no proof with the information that is available to us about why it isn't used. Several explanations are plausible. |
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06-28-2018, 09:14 PM | #412 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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From now on we will have FTTT inspections before every meeting. You will get citations if you smell, if you still got dinner between your teeth, and if your LSM tie is smudged. This week we will practice shaking hands and saying "howdy" to the guests. Evangelical, has it really come to this in the "local" church?
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06-28-2018, 09:58 PM | #413 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-28-2018, 09:59 PM | #414 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
What's funny about it? I must have missed the joke. If this situation had occurred in the time of the early church, in Corinth for example, I'm sure Paul would have given them instructions about it, just as he gave them instructions about the problems they were facing like wearing head coverings etc.
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06-29-2018, 03:19 AM | #415 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Didn't you ever go to a FTT, and have some kid do an underwear drawer inspection while you were in a meeting?
It is worse than I described, Evan. In the Asian culture, that's a way for LSM "trainers" to bring elders and deacons under their subjection. Mark my word.
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06-29-2018, 03:30 AM | #416 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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I understand, not all autocrats are Chinese. But these men built a Chinese-coloured system in which there was no mutuality or recoprocality. At one point you wrote, "You don't critique Jesus." But Watchman Nee was not Jesus. When the leading brothers gathered and expressed real and deep shared concerns about the situation in the LC, during the Philip Lee drama, Witness Lee complained to them that they were "pouring ice water" on him. But he got to pour ice water on everyone else. He could not have built such a large organisation around such flawed(and non-biblical, I might add) premises without tacit agreement of shared cultural influences. For example, when members said to one another about Lee, "Even when he's wrong he's right", they were unwittingly inculcating themselves with eastern values. And you keep using Paul as a kind of spiritual sop, or cover. Paul did not have absolute authority in the church. John alone refutes this: John was there before Paul, and was there after, and was continually ministering, and nowhere do we see any indication of the slavish submission that the Nee/Lee model demanded. This thread is a spin- off of an earlier discussion about attending the FTT; my response was, "Who would want to be trained (re-programmed) in such a system?" I agree that the system of western denominations in China, circa 1925, was deeply flawed. One might even argue, hopelessly flawed. But Nee's solution as exported by Lee was worse. At least in the "denominations" (for lack of a better term) there were some safeguards against abuse. In the LC there were, and are, effectively none. Who'd want to give themselves to this kind of system? It invites abuse. We have here story after story, testimony after testimony.
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06-29-2018, 04:10 AM | #417 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
If the thread is about the Chineseness of Lee/Nee then why are you and others talking about the LC in the present tense?
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06-29-2018, 04:17 AM | #418 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Please read the first sentence again. I said, "this IS writ large over the LC". The LC continues to be an extension of the culturally- mediated personalities of its two most dominant members.
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06-29-2018, 04:29 AM | #419 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
What is your proof that this is the case today? Does it apply to ALL local churches around the world?
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06-29-2018, 05:51 AM | #420 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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One of the nasty side-effects of the Midwest Quarantines was to expedite the "yellowing" of the LCM in the US. The Midwest LC's were the last bastion of "native" Americans.
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06-29-2018, 08:21 AM | #421 | |
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Or did you have printed messages from LSM giving other directives? Please share, and reconcile that with the footnote. Unless we hear of sweeping changes in the LC, we are not remiss in assuming this is the case, yes in ALL the LC assemblies, today. Because that's the way it was set up and the current leadership makes such a deal of "closely following the apostles", i.e. Lee's written directives.
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06-29-2018, 08:33 AM | #422 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Drake |
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06-29-2018, 08:48 AM | #423 | |
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They should be as identical to one another as all of the seven golden lampstands in Revelation. No differences whatsoever are allowed, because all of these differences were supposedly "negative."
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06-29-2018, 08:52 AM | #424 | |
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Re: Finally I decided to not join Full time training.
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Whenever questions get difficult for you, then you seem to disappear. My questions here are altogether legitimate, since you regularly dismiss all of Lee's failings with the saying, "everyone makes mistakes."
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06-29-2018, 10:05 AM | #425 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
"They bear the same lamp for the same purpose and are fully identified with one another, not having any individual distinctiveness. The differences among the seven churches recorded in chs. 2 and 3 are all of a negative nature, not a positive one. Negatively, in their failures, the churches are different and separate from one another; but positively, in their nature, shape, and purpose, they are absolutely identical and are connected to one another."
Revelation 1:20 Footnote (Recovery Version) Witness Lee's footnote here is a classic argument from silence. One could probably throw in an argument of ignorance as well. His logic is shoddy and over-simplistic. "Not having any individual distinctiveness?" These churches were made up of flesh and blood human beings, not mindless, opinionless automatons. Furthermore, it does seem to reflect the Chinese/Asian homogeneous worldview. Of course there is nothing inherently wrong in this ancient worldview...the problems come in when this worldview is sold as "Recovered truth". -
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06-29-2018, 10:10 AM | #426 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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The Footnote says identical in " their nature, shape, and purpose" What nature, what shape, and what purpose does the Footnote describe? Drake |
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06-29-2018, 10:47 AM | #427 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Hey - we might need more Chinese in Scottsdale . . . send 'em over here!
Seriously, we're just fine, since "God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired." (1 Cor 12:18)
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06-29-2018, 11:43 AM | #428 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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One of the things many outsiders have had questions about is why nearly everyone in the Local Church looks, dresses and talks the same. And they wonder why they can't get but a few "average American Caucasians". The group has been hemorrhaging young American Caucasian kids at an alarming rate for decades. The makeup of the Full-Time Training Anaheim is so skewed with Chinese/Asians that it looks like it should be in Taiwan, not Anaheim. Why? Are American Caucasians so blind, deft and dumb as to not recognize "the heavenly culture" Witness Lee created? Why wouldn't they want to be "trained" in the godly and glorious ways of the Kingdom? Conversely, why are the Chinese/Asians flocking to the FTTA? You see, there is a method to the madness. If you fill all the churches with people who look, dress, talk and act the same you will end up with a bunch of churches that look, dress, talk and act the same. A bunch of little rank-and-file automatons meeting in a meeting hall make up the corporate automaton. You get what you pay for my friends. And the followers of Witness Lee have been payin and payin for about 50 years now. -
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06-29-2018, 12:03 PM | #429 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Yet that was not my objection. Aron referenced a footnote in the Recovery Version (Revelation 1:20) to substantiate his Asian culture claim. That footnote does not say or even imply what he said it does... it comes nowhere near to it. He is entitled to his own opinion but not his own facts. Therefore, aron, back to your assertion...... that footnote says the local churches are identical in "nature, shape, and purpose". According to that footnote what does the nature, shape, and purpose refer to? Drake |
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06-29-2018, 12:25 PM | #430 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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I know you are having a hard time here, but ... How do you interpret Lee's quoted footnote to demand that every LC must read from the same identical book, and that would be the latest HWFMR based on the latest semi-annual Training at LSM? LSM used this demand to quarantine and literally divide all the LC's in the Midwest. Operatives from LSM literally incited local adherents to physically disrupt the Lord's Day meetings out of their desire to be "absolutely one with other LC's" according to Witness Lee's own instructions.
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06-29-2018, 01:02 PM | #431 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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But truly it wasn't ALL of the LC that was abusive, manipulative, and controlling. Just enough of it that a clear pattern was established. Somewhere between zero and 100%. Jane Anderson, Max and Sandee Rappaport, 'Hope' and John So, Bill Mallon, the sisters abused by Philip Lee, Sal Benoit and the Daystar 'investors', Bill Freeman, etc. I admit that also there's abuse and manipulation in non-LC churches and in non-religious groups. But in the LC it's well-covered over by those spiritual words. Because in the LC you don't talk. Another Chinese trait. Just smile and nod. Who was the Chinese brother (Samuel Chang?) walking with the American brother in the mid-60s, who turned to the American (Don Hardy?) and said, "You have to watch out for Witness Lee's family", then clapped his hand over his mouth and said, "Oh! I shouldn't have said that!" Why? Chinese culture says it's bad form to speak of others like that. So Lee's past got hidden by people who knew. When the Tour of Asia happened and Lee took those strapping young American men, none of the Chinese warned the Americans what was coming. Bad form to speak ill. So they let it pass. And when the storm came the Americans didn't know what hit them. But the Chinese already knew. Lee would hide behind words, "Nature, shape, and purpose". But those on the ground knew exactly what it meant. When Lee looked over the mass of humanity dressed in identical garments he couldn't contain his delight. This is what Ohio tells us of what he saw during the "New Way" in Taipei. Another witness to the non-witness of Witness Lee. He wasn't testifying of Christ, but his native culture. (but he wasn't a monster; Drake says we say that here but I don't ever remember using that word. WL was just another sinner trapped by his concepts and his flesh).
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06-29-2018, 01:25 PM | #432 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Here's a post from a dumb American who opened his mouth:
Quote:
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06-29-2018, 01:26 PM | #433 | ||
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Let me give a personal view. I read Witness Lee holding that in the Psalms the phrase "I will dip my feet in the blood of my enemy" was a type of Christ triumphing over Satan (per Lee's interpretation). Then another Psalm has the Psalmist also wishing harm to his enemies and Lee said, "That's not Christian. We should bless our enemies." I pointed out the interpretational inconsistency and a LC member replied, "Perhaps it is so." Well, perhaps it is not so. And the footnote said it was, not 'perhaps'. Only a docile and compliant culture could stand such ridiculous teachings. Our American culture is if we see something stupid someone will point it out. But the Chinese culture is, "Don't bring shame to elder brother Lee." So they keep their mouths shut. So my point is that the FTT is to give you a "Chinese flavor". Then you will "make it" in the LC. There are many nations and cultures. The Bible says that the kings of the nations will bring their glory into the City of God. Revelation 21:24,26; cf Isaiah 60:3, 5. Nothing wrong with the Chinese, but they aren't the only nation. So imposing their culture as requisite for the Kingdom is patently false. There are other voices besides that of Witness Lee. Let them come forth. There are other "flavors" that will also give glory to God. Let them speak, also.
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06-29-2018, 01:48 PM | #434 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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They had taken a break, and were taking a walk when SC confided in DH about WL's serious issues with his children.
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06-29-2018, 01:52 PM | #435 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-29-2018, 04:18 PM | #436 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Hi Drake, how do you define "mistake" in the context of W. Lee?
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06-29-2018, 04:32 PM | #437 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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06-29-2018, 04:40 PM | #438 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
The footnotes are defined in LC practice. If you don't get that, eventually someone will tell you, "I was with Lee. I know." So I felt it was important to quote people like Doug Krieger who brought many into the Lee orbit, only to find out what the "nature, shape, and purpose" of the LSM-affiliated assemblies really was. You can push words around, but eventually the Lord will send a witness to describe what it means to be "exactly identical" in LSM credo.
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06-29-2018, 04:40 PM | #439 | ||
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Quote:
Quote:
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06-29-2018, 04:41 PM | #440 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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You're focusing on "hearers of the word", and I keep trying to point you to the "doers". If you can't tell the difference then you haven't done your homework.
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06-29-2018, 04:52 PM | #441 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Now, an American wouldn't say that. But a Chinese would. Different cultures. Different values and practices. Now, guess which one runs the LC?
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06-29-2018, 05:38 PM | #442 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Instead of a best effort to prove your point, or better yet, admit that it doesn't .... well, we hear crickets. Drake |
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06-29-2018, 05:46 PM | #443 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Definition of "mistake" please. Even the *crickets* are silent.
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06-29-2018, 06:42 PM | #444 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Nature: Chinese Shape: Hmm? Help me here. There are seven spirits before the throne. Are they all identical in shape? Witness Lee says so. Where did he get this idea? From his culturally-shaped imagination? Then he poses it onto the captive audience? An angel is in the shape of a man (Rev 21:17). Or do you think the word "measure" translates into height? I think man is formed in variety. This pleases God. Witness Lee wanted a shapeless, faceless proletariat. This thread, I remind you, was out of a "training" thread. My comment was, and remains, who would want to be trained by this group? There are seven angels before the throne. Do you think they are all "exactly identical without any differences whatever" in shape, form and purpose? Really? Why? Does Gabriel, who stands before God, have the exact shape, form and purpose as Michael? Do the twelve gates, each bearing a name of a tribe, have exactly the same shape, form and purpose? (Rev 21:12; Exod 28:21; Ezek 48:31) Where did Lee get this idea? He doesn't say in the footnote. So I see him impose uniformity on the LC, telling us to be "Witness Lee tape recorders" in the "Witness Lee duplication center" and this points to the Full Time Training. If you don't commit yourself to 24/7 immersion in the LC culture the cracks start to appear quickly. You begin to notice where the teachings don't match each other, nor apostolic precedent: in one place, scripture's said to be "Christ", in another "fallen". And so forth. You begin to think, to have an opinion... ! Gasp! No! Mustn't think! Erk! Now, does this have anything to do with fallen human culture? According to Philip Lin, who wrote the LSM biography of Lee, yes. When he said "according to my culture" he meant Chinese culture. Or do you think he meant another culture? Divine culture? According to divine culture I must abandon my conscience and pledge loyalty to a man? I don't think so. Purpose: See shape, above. Each creature has a purpose, to glorify the Creator. But a frog does it different from a cricket. If you get bricks coated with slime, each "exactly identical with no differences whatsoever" you can build a nice tower for yourself, so I'm told (Gen 11:3, KJV). Lee tried to mold us into one purpose - his. Good luck with that. And my point all along is that the Bible was interpreted by his cultural bias. Paul, for example, was "the minister of the age", and evidently John, Peter, James and all the rest had to "get in line". But where do you see John getting in line? I don't. The only "line", or purpose to get in is to love. You don't need "local ground" or "the ministry of the age" or FTT or "high peak theology" for that. In fact I daresay that all those things just distract and mislead.
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06-29-2018, 06:52 PM | #445 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
So why did Lee interpret violence in the OT as "Christ defeating Satan" in one place (e.g. Psalm 62) and as "fallen humanity" in most other places? Why did David get a pass by Peter to declare fealty and reward as being indicative of the Coming Seed (e.g. Psalm 16) and yet Witness Lee wouldn't fallen suit, instead saying David was a sinner (e.g. Psalm 18)? Yet Peter acknowledged David as a sinner. Acts 2:29. Dead and buried. Entombed. But Jesus had said that "David was in spirit" and writing of Messiah and Witness Lee said no, David was just a fallen human being exercising his vain imagination.
Now, to the real question of this thread: Why didn't anyone in the audience raise a hand and say, Wait a minute here? Didn't any one of the gathered throng stir uneasily at this blatant exegetical reversal, or at this failure to follow apostolic precedent? No? Why? Were they "trained" out of thinking? Or just trained to suppress? And for what? To be identical? Is that God? No, that is culture. Fallen human culture. This is how you survive in the Lee Dynasty. Keep your mouth shut and look straight ahead. Numb and quiet. No opinion. Maybe you will "make it". Make it where? And I think this culture betrays its land of birth. Now, it's not any worse than German culture, which shaped Luther's thought. Or Italian popes. Or Swedish Christians. Or Norwegians, for that matter. But why did Lee make fun of Western imports - Christmas trees and Easter bunnies - and not see the ridiculousness of exporting his own culture onto others? It's one of the tough things about being blind. You can't see your own blindness. ~John 9:41; Revelation 3:17,18 Culture is like that. Why could Nee source women as spiritual authorities, even foundational (uncovering previously hidden "truths") yet 80 years later an LC sister couldn't give a Sunday morning talk, because "women can't teach"? Answer: because the Mota makes the rules as he goes along. A "truth" only had utility until the Mota didn't need it, then it must be forgotten. Don't bring up what the Mota has dropped - is this not cultural in source? It sure isn't biblical.
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06-29-2018, 07:11 PM | #446 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Lampstands. How do you know the lampstands are identical? Because Witness Lee needs them to be. It fits his culturally-shaped perceptions. But perception is not reality. The Bible doesn't say they are "exactly identical in shape, form and purpose". The footnote said this. Why doesn't anyone question this? Angels are not identical. Nor are flowers, bees, snowflakes, living stones being built together. The twelve disciples were not identical. But in Witness Lee's LC, it helps to be empty, drab, faceless, opinionless. Just pump your fist at the right moment. Get the sing-song intonation, inflect the vowels just so and you are "in spirit". And there's just one spirit, right? The Bible says so! On your way!
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06-29-2018, 07:23 PM | #447 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Ohio. Please. One mustn't ask for specifics, and cause the Mota to lose face. This will never do. (and put proper stress on the word "never")
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06-29-2018, 07:24 PM | #448 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Man, you guys are all so far above my public scholl education - I need a nap!
I'm curious - does anybody ever officially "win" one of these debate hootenannies?
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06-29-2018, 11:56 PM | #449 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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I’m not asking for your definition of “shape”. Or any of the irrelevant manderings about the Coming Seed, angels, creatures, frogs, bugs, Christmas Trees or Easter bunnies, tape recorders, ...or your ironic call for a line of love. This is ultra simple and it is point of YOUR argument, not mine, You introduced and referenced the footnote Revelation 1:20. You claimed it was a proof point that the local churches are identical in Asian culture. That is what we are discussing and the title of this thread. Now, that footnote says the churches are identical in “nature, shape, and purpose”. The question is simple and the answer will either support your assertion or not..... According to the footnote you referenced, what is the definition of 1. Nature 2. Shape 3. Purpose Thanks Drake |
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06-30-2018, 03:24 AM | #450 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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This is, hopefully, a discussion. AKA "Local Church Discussions". My idea of a discussion is that both parties learn something. Versus a lecture or monologue, in which one person dispenses to a ready vessel. Lee obviously specialised in the second format. I prefer discussions. So I'm happy to have folks critique my ideas. And I'm trying to critique those of LSM. This thread grew out of another on Full Time Training, whether to attend or not. My comment was, and remains, "Who would want to be trained by this group?" I pointed out the pressure for outward conformity, and noted what I perceived as a strong cultural component. Everyone must be exactly identical, with no differences whatsoever. There are words on paper, which mask a spirit. Always. The question is, are these words from God or not? From whence this spirit comes? I say, China, not heaven. The earth has rebelled against God, including China. Lee taught us that China was "virgin soil". It was not so virginous as he supposed. Now, we get into problem #2. Satan would love for USA and China to fight. Or Belgium and Germany or whatnot. God has given His sinless Son as Saviour of the world, and we all should submit. But if one sinner tries to get another to submit to him, I'm calling it out. But not, hopefully, in the way of a fight. Just simply saying, "This is not of God." StG, Drake says he doesn't want to talk about bugs, only lampstands. So humour me for a minute and let me talk about bugs. There's all different kinds, but from one Creator. God doesn't mind variety. "The heavens declare the glory of God" says Psalm 19. But star differs from star in glory (1 Cor 15:41). Yet they all have the same purpose!! So why impose uniformity? Does that make any sense? Basketball teams have the same purpose. But the Center is tall and lean, the Power Forward is thick and "powerful", and the guard is small and speedy. Yet Lee tried to push for conformity. To what? To his culturally-mediated perceptions. So he put out pseudo-spiritual words, but eventually, if you stuck around, you found out what was behind those words. I don't know if you know the story of Bill Mallon and Ray Graver. Bill was trying to manage various locales in the Southeast USA, and "the office" aka Philip Lee was pushing non-biblical and non-spiritual rubbish on them. People were discouraged. "Life" was at a low ebb. "Enjoyment" was dissipating rapidly. Bill mentioned this to travelling minsitry enforcer Ray, who replied, "We do what we are told." Eventually, you find out what spirit is behind the words. As did Godfred Otuteye and the Lee-appointed elders in Anaheim, as did others. You eventually find out what nature, shape and form of spirit you're really dealing with, whether it is of heaven or no. So in some sense Drake and I are talking past each other, yes. He's fixated upon the appearance of words on paper, what they might seem to mean (gold meaning divine nature) and I'm pointing to the reality of what happens on the ground if you let this spirit in. This is why I keep pointing to what happens. Let's say the supposed Oracle of God makes an exegetical faux pas (I've specifically noted several, on this thread). Or this year's interpretation is diametrically opposed to last year's, because apparently the Mota needs something different today. Everyone in the audience sits quiety. Because LC (Chinese) culture dictates "you don't make the Mota lose face publicly". So you accept poor teachings (or at least questionable) and 'life' goes on. Apparently the "flow" from Lee's throne has changed, and you try to make do in your LC "church life". But your conscience is damaged. So I'm trying to publicly think here - an ugly sight yes I know - in the hopes people might realize that Witness Lee wasn't the only person on earth with a brain. We can all think what these words mean. And to the topic, my counsel has been to avoid "training" that doesn't allow some freedom to accept other sources. There is a marketplace of ideas out there. Watchman Nee sourced them. Can't we, also? This goes for the LC and any other cloistered sect (LDS, JW &c). The LC has how many hundreds of full time recruiters on college campuses around the world, trying to convince naive teen-agers to go get trained by their "ministry". . . I'm pointing to the spirit behind this. A spirit of corrosion and control. I say, resist and reject it. Think for yourself and this spirit will go away. Sorry for my ability to be short, quick, and to the point. I like talking about stars, angels and bugs. (not in that order, though). Thanks be to God for a format to freely discuss such things publicly.
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06-30-2018, 03:42 AM | #451 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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I have been pointing out the fruits of the footnote, as indicative of it's source, and thus it's "true meaning" or "reality", but if you want to discuss the actual arrangement of words on paper please post them. Let's do discuss definitions. Also, where did Lee get the idea that the lampstands were "exactly identical"? Are you and I "exactly identical"? I think there is a hidden meaning here, a push for control, which aligns with cultural preconceptions of leadership, which is probably what Jesus taught as "the way of the gentiles". This is, I posit, a "Chinese-flavoured (i.e. gentile)" interpretive model imposed on scripture. At it's source, however, someone is angling for control. Let me give an example, from similarly placed source, the NT. 1 Cor 1:10 "Speak the same thing". Now, there is a way to interpret that which still honours the Spirit of Jesus Christ. Love one another. God raised Jesus from the dead. Repent and confess. Or there is another way - unless you take arcane doctrinal position, "x", you will be expelled from the "Christian" assembly. In both cases, the first and the second, you are "speaking the same thing". But in the second case, the letter of Paul is used to quench the Spirit of Christ. Because the letter of Paul is improperly appropriated, according to personal motives and directed by culturally-mediated ignorance. Don't forget thousands of years have passed since these words were written, and now we have liberty to percolate them through our gentile brains and come up with all sorts of nonsense. Sorry for writing so much. Just thinking aloud here.
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06-30-2018, 03:51 AM | #452 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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There was a fall, and man got separated from God. Now men (and women) fight and dominate each other, having lost connection to their Source. Along comes Jesus. He sees His disciples arguing for pre-eminence. He knows what spirit is behind that. The spirit that controls the earth, of grasping anxiety, manifesting itself in what He calls "the way of the gentiles". A spirit of domination. "If I can just push others down, and get them to do what I want, then I will be happy." Because of the fall, we should take the opposite tack. We should all humble ourselves. Paul affirmed this - "why not rather be wronged" - in 1 Corinthians 6:7. My point in noting the footnote in Revelation 1:20 is that it is a wedge, if you uncritically accept it, to separate you from your fellows. Because someone wants control of you. If you submit to them, you will be separated from your brothers and sisters into someone else's holding pen. They get elevated, you get suppressed and lose your natural function. This could be any seemingly spiritual group. I don't know if I'm making any sense -- I just see a bad spirit behind this group and I'm trying to call it out. It hides behind words; we all do, I know, including myself. But I'm not trying to get $$ from anyone, or get them to go to my school. I'm just saying beware of false prophets, of wolves in sheep's clothing. You will tell them by their fruits. And their footnotes also indicate the source. Avoid people who use the word of God for gain, to elevate themselves and control others.
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06-30-2018, 04:32 AM | #453 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Aron, using wit, scripture, reason, and historical examples is dismantling all the baggage we have accumulated in the name of "oneness." We considered any *diversity* to be negative, and divisive, and almost "evil." Lee had effectively used a twisted understanding of the 7 Lampstands to leaven us with Chinese thinking and customs.
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06-30-2018, 06:02 AM | #454 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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And yet, it begs the question, why are you referencing and expounding source material to substantiate your argument that you don't have right in front of you? Apparently you don't know what your own reference actually says. Drake |
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06-30-2018, 06:09 AM | #455 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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That verse has been quoted many times in this forum.....by people who lack humility and apparently unwilling to be wronged. Drake |
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06-30-2018, 06:19 AM | #456 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Or if he wanted to meander about tea-ification, as the basis of his doctrine of deification, you were okay with that? Or, no? Did you hop up and say, "I'm being 'tea-ified'!" after the lecture was over? I mean, if we are all exactly identical in shape, form and purpose, isn't that what we're supposed to demonstrate? Tea bags and water was okay, right? It's ultra-simple. If Lee wants to talk about something, fine. Don't go against the Mota. My point is that this has cultural roots.
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06-30-2018, 06:47 AM | #457 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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But there are other verses in the Bible too. Verses like exposing heresy, marking divisive ones, pointing out error, protecting others, etc.
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06-30-2018, 07:10 AM | #458 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
And notice that he doesn't hold this standard to Lee and Nee. Why didn't they stay in the Anglicans and Baptists, and be wronged? Because there are two sets of rules: one for Mota, one for everyone else. When they do it, it's okay. But no one else. This is Chinese culture. Just as bad as Easter Bunnies.
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06-30-2018, 07:27 AM | #459 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Sadly, aron, what you did by misrepresenting what this footnote actually said is what some opposers of the Lord's recovery have done in the past. They take a statement out of context and twist it to mean something entirely foreign to its stated meaning. They want it to mean something they can attack.... in other words, they, and you, are engaging in deliberate falsehood by creating a strawman to advance a propaganda war... a form of sophistry. Yet, if you did not read the footnote as you indicated, your argument may not be that sophisticated. ... instead you would be guilty of simply repeating the falsehoods of others without due diligence on your part. Of the two, I'm undecided which is worse.... someone who uses craft to slander brothers or someone who slanders brothers out of sheer ignorance. Thanks for dialogue. Drake Revelation 1:20 footnote 1 (concerning the nature, shape, and purpose of the lampstands). The Recovery Version of the Bible "The churches, signified by the seven golden lampstands, are the testimony of Jesus (vv. 2, 9) in the divine nature, shining in the dark night locally yet collectively. The churches should be of the divine nature — golden. They should be the stands, even the lampstands, that bear the lamp with the oil (Christ as the life-giving Spirit) and shine in the darkness individually and collectively. They are individual lampstands locally, yet at the same time they are a group, a collection, of lampstands universally. They not only are shining locally but also are bearing universally the same testimony both to the localities and to the universe. They are of the same nature and in the same shape. They bear the same lamp for the same purpose and are fully identified with one another, not having any individual distinctiveness. The differences among the seven churches recorded in chs. 2 and 3 are all of a negative nature, not a positive one. Negatively, in their failures, the churches are different and separate from one another; but positively, in their nature, shape, and purpose, they are absolutely identical and are connected to one another." |
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06-30-2018, 09:08 AM | #460 | ||
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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I hate to break the bad news to you Drake, but this forum is not merely about "what this footnote actually said". Witness Lee said a lot of things. He taught a lot of things. Some things very biblical, helpful and enlightening. Some things not so helpful and not so biblical. Some things harmful and totally unbiblical. Some things extremely toxic and heretical. I would place this footnote where I would place many of Lee's teaching - in the category of "harmful and totally unbiblical". You see Drake, you can decry that we haven't cooperated with you in your quest to present Lee's teachings in the most positive light, but please keep in mind that aron and I and many other have already paid our dues for decades doing just that. (been there, done that and bought the t-shirt) So now some of us are trying to put some light on the teachings and practices, and this time we don't feel so obligated to make sure that light points towards the positive. Speaking for myself only, I have found that the more light gets shined on the teachings and practices, the worse they look. Yes there are positives - lots of them. But neither Lee, LSM/DPS, the Blended Brothers or their followers need us to proclaim and accentuate the virtues and positives in Lee's teachings - They have tons of websites, meetings, conferences and trainings to do just that. And they also have you and Mr. E to do that right here on this forum. not having any individual distinctiveness...but positively, in their nature, shape, and purpose, they are absolutely identical and are connected to one another. Like I said, this is an argument from silence....and making an argument from silence is a very dangerous thing to be doing when it comes to the bible. "Absolutely identical"? I think not. If he is nothing else, our God is a Creator of diversity. No two human beings are absolutely identical in "nature, shape and purpose." The church is composed of these diverse human beings. Remember, just a few chapters later in Revelation 7 - "from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages" (vr 9) Doesn't sound like God is after absolutely identical after all. He started with diversity in the beginning and he ends up with diversity in his eternal Kingdom. If God wanted every church to be absolutely identical he would have filled them with people with absolutely identical color of hair, eyes and skin. They would all be absolutely identical in their thinking, speaking, actions...nature, shape and purpose. Wow, now that I mention this, it seems to me that a number of people/groups/ministries have tried this over the past 2,000 years or so. How'd that come out for them? -
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06-30-2018, 09:54 AM | #461 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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And then Drake uses this as justification for LSM forcing all the LC's being identical? We should note, however, that all of the LC websites, except for LSM's, are somewhat identical, all cast from a common template. I grew up in the RCC and I had a Catholic Missal, good for the whole year. There was a time when I could go to any RCC around the world and hear the same identical Mass spoken in Latin for every Sunday of the year, orchestrated by some priest wearing the same clothes as every one else. That was the kind of twisted "oneness" that Drake dreams of. It's more like cloning than anything Christian.
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06-30-2018, 10:12 AM | #462 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Now, where's this cultural influence most clearly seen? Probably in the phrase, "not having any inividual distinctiveness". Meaning, anyone with distinctiveness is a threat to group leadership. Any outstanding or "gifted ones" get regular beat-downs, sorry, perfecting and training, to keep them in line. By contrast, look at the stars. They differ in glory (have distinctiveness) yet they all shine light for the same glorification. I covered this already (see my post #105). Same purpose but differentiated expression, and with no problem but rather glory. The archangels Michael and Gabriel, the four living creatures - who is threatened by individual distinctiveness? LC leadership, that's who. And my point all along has been that Witness Lee was NOT a monster but rather a sinner like the rest, trying to make his way home, but misled by his native (gentile) culture, which happened to be Chinese. Lee could see a splinter in others but missed the beam in his own eye. In my time in the LC I noticed how Cleveland, Brasil, New York, and Austin had individual distinctiveness, or "local flavor"; the rest were bland ministry stations, as local as a McDonalds franchise. Two of the four groups survived the LC acculturation system and two didn't. Not a great track record. And it's worth noting that if you don't understand what words like "absolutely identical" mean on the ground, some ministry enforcer like Ray Graver will come along and make it oh so plain. Suddenly spiritual niceties are set aside and "practical oneness" appears: "Here, we do what we are told". As one brother put it to me, "You are in the [Chinese] army now."
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06-30-2018, 12:49 PM | #463 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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So please forgive me in advance if I jump into any future conversations and spout-off some self-righteous thing like "Can't we all just get along!?" Of course, I too experienced some of the woes of central LC control, and we've all seen in the 2000 year history of the ekklesia what happens as a result (Church in Rome, et. al.). This is just Adam's natural propensity - he desperately wants to control. . . (BTW: Considering the need for control, I wonder how LSM views this open discussion board . . .) . .
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06-30-2018, 12:58 PM | #464 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Somewhere over the rainbow.
Quote:
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06-30-2018, 01:22 PM | #465 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Drake |
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06-30-2018, 02:19 PM | #466 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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"Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands" Revelation 1:12 "As for the mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands.... Revelation 1:20 "‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. Revelation 2:1 So John saw seven golden lampstands and mentions it three times as above....... not 5 lampstands and 2 Birdfeeders... not 4 lampstands, 2 Harley choppers, and 1 Ukelele... I am pretty confident that they are identically shaped as lampstands else John would have called our attention to it. Exodus 25 gives a detailed description of the shape and features of the lampstand. John recorded that they were all golden .. not some golden and some ceramic... none were made of aluminum foil, tin, tupperware, particle board, rubber, or other such materials... all were golden. I think we can safely say they were identically made of of the same substance ...gold. That is their nature. Now, we could just infer the purpose of the lampstand... a stand to a hold a lamp and the lamp was to give light by burning oil. But just in case that is perceived as an argument from silence, we can recall Exodus 25 and v37: "And you shall make its lamps, seven; and set up its lamps to give light to the area in front of it." so I think we can safely add this to what is identical about the lampstands.. their purpose is to give light. Given those verses and descriptions there is no argument from silence in the footnote for that is what it exactly states.. It is the plain teaching and description from the scripture. In any event, it has absolutely nothing to do with Chinese culture and frankly, to insist on that in the face of clear biblical evidence to the contrary is to fail to recognize or acknowledge that our High Priest is the One who designed the earthly pattern of the tabernacle to mirror the heavenly one. Is there all sorts of variation in the heavenly tabernacle?... none that we can see and any argument for variation in nature (gold) , shape (lampstands) , and purpose (to shine light) of the lampstands in the heavenly tabernacle is a bonfide argument from silence. Furthermore, if there is a danger to be considered, it is the heart that discards the clear testimony of scripture (here regarding the lampstands in Revelation 1:12, 20 and 2:1) in favor of flawed human reasoning. I'm good to go with the scriptural definition myself. thanks Drake |
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06-30-2018, 02:40 PM | #467 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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When we get our dirty hands into the patient, an infection is the result. (Again, please let me know if I'm not remotely on track with this discussion.)
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06-30-2018, 05:52 PM | #468 | |
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Lee taught this too! Especially "early-Lee" back in the early days. This kind of "identical-ness" was likened to the oneness of the Spirit. He even wrote a book: Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life. The LC's enjoyed some blessing from God in those days. Even some real "oneness" and love and joy in the Spirit. The LC's even looked like the local populations -- mostly white, some yellow, some black. Then Lee changed. Our oneness was not good enough for him. The 1974 elders' meeting was the start -- designated ministry stations all speaking Lee's messages. The 1984 "New Way" was another huge push. Now it was "absolute for the ministry or get out." The demands for uniformity had surpassed any demand in the scripture -- trainings, uniforms, firing all resistant elders and workers, ministry books for every meeting, one man speaking and all speaking from the one man, and not just any man, but the MOTA, the acting God. Fear and duty replace love in the church -- spying on one another, who is not up-to-date, who is not one with WL, who is doing their own thing, who is not absolute enough -- and we have sleeper cells in the LC's, ready to tattle on the locals, scoring points with HQ's -- the results could be seen with brothers like Titus Chu publicly shamed by Witness Lee as an example to all. Pathetic. John Ingalls et. al. were right! Lee had changed. Lee had changed the nature of the Recovery -- from Christ-centered to Lee-centered, from love to fear, from serving to spying, from the Bible to Lee's books -- thinking the same thing, speaking the same thing, reading the same thing -- "Lee, Lee, only Lee" -- just like he ranted in that Rosemead Conference, Thanksgiving, 1988 -- "it must be Lee!"
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06-30-2018, 08:23 PM | #469 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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So they are "absolutely identical" if you mean they are humans. Or lampstands. Or whatever the class. Same "life and nature". Same "gold", beaten fine, into a utensil (a lampstand). But "without any individual distinctions"? What kind of a God is this? God wants all His children (remember the lampstands are churches, composed of people) to be without any individual distinctions? This is a God of Human Culture, not a God that I want. This is the God of this age, pushing for control through conformity to an all-too-human model. The Conform-and-Submit God of this age. Do you think an American would have written that footnote? Or a Pole or a Swede? We don't think that way. We value the individual. We allow distinctiveness. Yes we have issues, too, with our cultural make-ups. But we wouldn't have looked at "seven golden lampstands" and written the RecV footnote in Revelation 1:20. No, that was shot through with Lee's cultural presuppositions. Where did this kind of teaching come from but from fallen human culture? Not from the text.
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06-30-2018, 08:44 PM | #470 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Are the 12 gates (Rev 21:12, 13), each with the name of a tribe of Israel, absolutely identical, without any individual distinctiveness? They are all gates. Same function. But where does it say they have to be identical? Why the need for no individual distinctiveness? I think it's pathological. It has its roots in the fall. It's not supported by either the text or common human understanding. But it resonates with a certain cultural predisposition which is why it's predominantly taken root there.
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06-30-2018, 10:16 PM | #471 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Then I add, "They have no individual distinctiveness." My companion will probably get up and walk away. But in the LC its not gibberish. It's code for, "Get with the program." In the LC they don't walk away, because they've been conditioned, or trained, to sit through this stuff. No different than a Chinese man dressed up as Santa Claus. Someone's cultural fluff has become your pseudo-reality.
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06-30-2018, 11:55 PM | #472 | |
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I always had trouble with this kind of stuff. In college a well-meaning saint tried to spend time with me but it always centered around reading a ministry book and then asking me to immediately share what I enjoyed from those 2-3 pages. First of all it was always impossible for me to immediately digest and regurgitate after reading anything 3 seconds prior, and secondly so often I felt it had no informational value to me whatsoever. Often the content was this kind of meaningless stuff (repeated over and over again in those 2 pages) and it always confounded me what I was supposed to enjoy or give the slightest hoot about. I got really good at deflecting/faking/changing the subject/making them laugh so they would forget they'd asked me to share my enjoyment. There have been a rare ministry book or two that I found worthwile (How to Enjoy God and How to Practice the Enjoyment of God, for one.....Practical Issues of This Life, for another), but so many others just left me with nothing. Cue to years later when a non-LC believer gave me a non-LC book and after the requisite period of time where I shoved that "waste of a book" in my bookshelf and then pulled it out one day when I was bored and had nothing else to do, much to my surprise it actually talked about specific things I was dealing with in my life and thoughts I actually had that I never would have been able to express to anyone in the LC, and it blew me away! Now THAT I could have shared my enjoyment from!! |
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07-01-2018, 04:11 AM | #473 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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You would be amazed to know how many saints have done the same thing! One such book was Joyce Meyer's book, Battlefield of the Mind.
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07-01-2018, 05:51 AM | #474 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Based on the quotation Drake provided earlier it is clear to me that aron and others are extracting a single sentence from a footnote and not considering the context of the whole paragraph footnote in which the sentence is found. This is very dishonest and not something a "noble Berean" would do. For a noble Berean does not dishonestly extract a single sentence and then argue their mistaken point of view, but "receive the message with great eagerness and examine to see if what is said was true" (Acts 17:11).
This quote shows clearly the context of being absolutely identical. As we can see it has nothing to do with human culture but the divine nature and other spiritual attributes. That is: Same nature - divine Same purpose - bearing the lamp (Christ) etc Now that the true meaning of "same nature, and same purpose" has been established as relating to divinity and not to human culture, aron and others should explain why the divine nature and the person of Christ and the Holy Spirit is not "absolutely identical" for every Christian. |
07-01-2018, 05:51 AM | #475 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
On another thread I was discussing the military, and how American/western cultural practices could be seen in organisational arrangements. Contrast that to the Asian military practices.
I gave General George Washington as an American paragon. He wasn't afraid of strong, independent lieutenants. He never required them to be exactly identical in form, shape and purpose, not having any individual distinctiveness. Now, occasionally, this got him and the Americans in trouble. Alexander Hamilton comes immediately to mind. Of course I am being anecdotal. But my experiences in viewing cultures made me think that an American would never have written that footnote in Revelation 1:20. Witness Lee was betraying his cultural schema as he was angling for complete control/domination in the LC. So he "read" things in the text which simply were not there.
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07-01-2018, 05:52 AM | #476 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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07-01-2018, 06:00 AM | #477 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Yes but you can see that the footnote you've been quoting is regarding the divine attributes of the lampstands or local churches, which must be absolutely identical. You have invented an argument about Chinese culture based on a single sentence excerpt of an entire paragraph which shows the whole context.
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07-01-2018, 06:06 AM | #478 | |
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But you and Drake reject this, claiming only LSM franchises with supposedly a proper name can be Lampstands. This is both hypocritical and contrary to the truth.
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07-01-2018, 06:09 AM | #479 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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07-01-2018, 06:10 AM | #480 | |
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07-01-2018, 06:14 AM | #481 | |
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Can you tell me how many "cities" are in New York City? Only someone steeped in Nee's exclusive teachings could even dream to demand that all NYC be one gathering with one eldership.
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07-01-2018, 06:14 AM | #482 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Aron's insight could perhaps stood on its own without misrepresentation of a footnote. Aron's insight is questionable considering it is based on blatant misrepresentation of a footnote. Anyone who can read and comprehend English can see that the context of the footnote and the words "absolutely identical" is not about human culture. Clinging to a misrepresented footnote just seems like an act of desperation and casts doubt on the claimed insight.
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07-01-2018, 06:21 AM | #483 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Whatever a city is, in Revelation there are only 7 mentioned, and only one lampstand per city, so only 7 lampstands. If we want to argue that every gathering of two or three has its own lampstand, then we are forced to come to the nonsensical conclusion that a city can have only two or three people in it. If Jesus mentioned that there are 1000 lampstands that represent all the gatherings of two or three "churches" in the 7 cities then you might have a point, but, it doesn't. 7 cities, 7 churches - a gathering of two or three within each city, therefore, cannot be "a church", otherwise there would be more lampstands that cities mentioned.
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07-01-2018, 06:40 AM | #484 | ||
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Ohio told us a story of the Full Time Training in Taiwan, the push for absolutely identical expression. How happy Lee was when he looked out over a sea of disciples, all dressed in identical clothes, none having any individual distinctiveness. This, I say, has cultural roots. Those who couldn't get with the program were suspected in the LC of "Crimes of Fashion". It's outward-looking, with an eye for control. The spiritual-sounding words are just for cover. https://internalreference.com/crimes...n-56d6fd77b38c There is a remarkable photo in this essay, on public shaming of those who didn't conform. It is obviously an exaggeration of what we saw in the LC, but in a way that is more pernicious, because the cultural influence in the LC is more hidden, and mistaken for spirituality.
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07-01-2018, 07:45 AM | #485 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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________________Lampstands_____________________ Angels Nature__________ Golden ________________Created Divine "elohim" Shape _________Lampstands __________________Angels Purpose________ Shine Light ______________Messengers, Emissary Names______ Ephesus, Colosse, etc. _______ Gabriel, Michael, etc. The lampstands are absolutely identical in nature, shape, and purpose as the footnote in Revelation 1:20 states. . For that matter so are angels in nature, shape, and purpose. Revelation 1:20 does not say the seven lampstands all have one name. Rather, it states clearly that "the seven lampstands are seven churches ". You are misappropriating the definition of "absolutely identical " as the footnote defines it (nature, shape, purpose) and then twisting it to mean something different (e.g Gabriel name analogy). I suggest that you stop misrepresenting footnotes that you haven't actually read, quit making stuff up, and consider explaining ".. why the divine nature and the person of Christ and the Holy Spirit is not "absolutely identical" for every Christian."..... an insightful observation and challenge from brother Evangelical Drake |
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07-01-2018, 11:40 AM | #486 | |
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This was roughly equivalent to a "Sabbath's Day Journey" in ancient Israel. I doubt if any human has ever transversed the boundaries of NYC on foot. I just love how LSMers love to play word games, going back to ancient language semantics when it suits their needs.
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07-01-2018, 12:13 PM | #487 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
There are also many aspects/significances to this portion of the Word. Seven lampstands which refer to seven churches at a specific time in church history are mentioned, but this passage takes on a scope larger than that. There is the heavenly view, the earthly view, the individual local aspect, the aspect of the universal church, etc, and there is a risk in applying characteristics from one view or aspect to another, in a portion so heavily subject to interpretation, that should not be applied.
In CWWN, Nee says, "The lampstands are seven in number, yet that is not to say that these seven churches are combined into a perfect church.....The word seven represents perfection in number, that is, these seven churches typify a whole church." (emphasis added) So if the seven churches typify a whole church, of course the lampstands which typify that whole church would look the same, since they all typify the same one thing. Others, including Nee, provide another level of interpretation that the seven churches represent the church at different points in church history. Since "the church" is just "the church" no matter at what point it is in history, again, in type the seven lampstands would look the same because they are all simply "the church". However (in CWWN again), Nee states, "In life and communion, the churches are one like a body, but in their earthly responsibility and appearance, the churches are administrated separately as seven lampstands. When we read chapters two and three, we see how the seven churches at that time were different in their works, circumstances, failures, rewards, punishments, and responsibilities. To deny this fact is to create confusion." So in the heavenly or universal senses, yes, the lampstands are the same because they all typify one thing. However, this similitude does not by default extend to ALL local/earthly aspects or characteristics in terms of being identical from one locality to the next. Yes, the divine nature is the divine nature is the divine nature, in every lampstand and in every church. But these lampstands are not physical lampstands. There are no geographical coordinates where you can go and visit/look at/touch the lampstands. So in the divine realm, each lampstand is “identical” in certain divine attributes. However, in its earthly appearance, each local church is different. How would identical localities even be practically carried out anyway?! |
07-01-2018, 12:46 PM | #488 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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I understand what you are saying here. If you have seven of the same items, and you state that they are all gold, all lamps, and all shine light, anyone listening will understand they all look the same. But you verge into crazytown if you take it further and say "they have no individual distinctiveness." It's like, okay, what do you want me to do with that information? Yes, all the lampstands are constituted with the divine nature, are all in the shape of a lamp, and all shine forth light. This is true. But the line is crossed when the significance applied to that fact is that they have no individual distinctiveness. It is a hyper-analysis of the Biblical text. When I quoted Nee in my previous post, he states, "In life and communion, the churches are one like a body, but in their earthly responsibility and appearance, the churches are administrated separately as seven lampstands. When we read chapters two and three, we see how the seven churches at that time were different in their works, circumstances, failures, rewards, punishments, and responsibilities. To deny this fact is to create confusion." Nee does not state that these differences are negative, just that they are differences. In the footnote Lee takes it further (too far) and says, "...not having any individual distinctiveness. The differences among the seven churches recorded in chs. 2 and 3 are all of a negative nature, not a positive one. Negatively, in their failures, the churches are different and separate from one another; but positively, in their nature, shape, and purpose, they are absolutely identical and are connected to one another." Nee says they are different in works, circumstances, failures, rewards, punishments, and responsibilities. Not all these are negative, some are neutral (works, circumstances, responsibilities). Lee pushes it and calls these differences between the churches negative and a failure, thus elevating his concept of "no individual distinctiveness" where it should not be taken and where it is simply not stated. |
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07-01-2018, 02:26 PM | #489 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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I would only modify that the extension to earth from the heavenly is permitted.... We are partakers of the divine nature, there is a shape of the local churches, and they all shine forth the Spirit.... or rather should..... when we come to Revelation 2 & 3 we see big differences but those are mostly negative.... even in one case the Lord threatens to remove the lampstand.... Drake |
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07-01-2018, 02:56 PM | #490 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Secondly, why would Lee continually stress that each LC must "not have any individual distinctiveness?" Since God has placed gifts in the body as it pleases Him, and each member has been gifted by the Lord uniquely, it only stand to reason that each church would have different strengths (and weaknesses too.) Why is this so threatening to W. Lee that he would create a teaching about member churches that is completely different from the rest of the body of Christ? What was his motive here? What were the results, or the fruit, of such teaching? How did W. Lee and LSM act to remove "any individual distinctiveness" between churches. These are fair questions to ask. We also have the advantage of decades of history to examine. One notable action which Lee and LSM has taken is to remove and neutralize the gifted members of the body from ministering according to the anointing Spirit. The list of gifted and fruitful ministers around the globe, who once labored to establish churches, and have been expelled by Lee/LSM is just incredible. This forum is filled with their accounts. They were used by Lee, then were discarded. None of them ever parted peacefully. They were always nasty "divorces." Why would Lee/LSM do this? What was there motive? Just to remove "any individual distinctiveness" from the churches?
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07-01-2018, 03:00 PM | #491 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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07-01-2018, 05:06 PM | #492 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Yes, on the divine side the extension from heavenly to earthly is permitted. 1. Nature - do all the churches have the Lord's life/divine nature? Yes. 2. Shape - are they all lampstands? You bet! 3. Purpose - do they shine forth the Lord in a dark place? Yes. But again, these are not physical attributes and are thus in the divine realm. All these criteria can be met, and met fully, in the divine realm without requiring that the churches have no individual distinction in the earthly realm. In the context of this discussion I do not see the grounds for applying "no distinction" to the churches in the earthly realm. (For example, let me go hyper-Biblical myself and let's pretend for a second that you and I, as people, are each a lampstand: 1. Do Drake and Trapped both have the Lord's life? Yep! 2. Are we both believers? Yep! 3. Do we shine forth the Lord in a dark place? Yep! [okay, ideally, right?] But is there individual distinction between Drake and Trapped? You better believe it! Thus, we can both be fully lampstands with the same nature, shape, and purpose, but still have individual distinction.) Nee said it correctly: in the divine realm the lampstands are identical in nature, shape, and purpose. In the earthly realm there are positive and negative differences from one to another and each has its own earthly appearance. Lee took it too far/angled into a wrong direction: in the divine realm the lampstands are identical in nature, shape, and purpose. In the earthly realm there is no individual distinction and any distinctions are negative and failures. (We know this is not true, as Ohio mentioned, because the churches were individually commended for their own positive attributes). |
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07-01-2018, 05:09 PM | #493 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Yes, I agree (see my response to Drake just now). Lee took the erroneous concept too far and applied it in disastrous ways. |
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07-01-2018, 05:13 PM | #494 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
Shall we assume this is another of Lee's "mistakes," or should we examine the results to determine his motive?
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07-01-2018, 05:14 PM | #495 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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07-01-2018, 05:31 PM | #496 |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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07-01-2018, 07:40 PM | #497 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
What is the shape of the local churches? Does the footnote help us? Does the scriptural text?
How can we tell if the local churches have exactly identical shape? If we can't tell, then how does this footnote help us? It reminds me of the various abstractions that can be interpreted any old way one wants. Lee, naturally, got to pick the "proper" meaning. Quote:
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07-01-2018, 09:45 PM | #498 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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The Midwest Quarantine ostensibly was over Titus Chu's right to publish his own books, and many have considered only the financial implications of this. What was really at stake was Lee/LSM's definition of oneness, vis'a'vis Golden Lampstands being absolutely identical in nature, shape, and purpose. When Lee/LSM are the only source of teaching in the LCM, they automatically wield great power over all their members, and in exclusive systems such as the LCM, power is much preferred to money. So it is only Lee/LSM who determines what the exact "shape" of each member LC should be. Why is it that whenever the elders seek the Lord in order to shepherd their people, they immediately get charged with "independence." If that elder becomes effective at positively influencing others, the charge of "ambition" gets hurled at him. Thus, as I have seen for decades, the two unforgiveable sins in the LCM are ambition and independence. Financial impropriety and sexual immorality can be readily covered up as "mistakes," as in "everyone is entitled to a few," but ambition and independence must be rooted out of every LC leader. Except for the one at the top. Only he is allowed to possess unlimited "ambition and independence." This is absolutely contrary to western American Christianity. Neither Billy Graham nor Rick Warren was condemned for "ambition and independence," rather many leaders looked to them as patterns to learn their source of blessing from the Lord. Why attack the fruitful ones? Who would do that? It only makes sense if it is the lust for power that drives the "maximum brother." This explains why the demands for the collective far outweigh any personal liberties we have in the Spirit. It also explains the system of public shaming.
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07-02-2018, 12:20 AM | #499 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Here's what I think: Witness Lee was a flim-flam man. He noticed that Watchman Nee had made a go selling spiritual-sounding words to the masses and wanted to follow suit. So he put out these hifalutin messages, but when examined critically they dissolve like wet crepe paper. There's almost nothing there. He had no theological training so he cribbed 19th century Bible study lessons and Brethren teachings. But the cracks are showing, and what lurks below. The local churches are to be exactly identical, but in what way? In shape? How are we supposed to implement that? Eventually a Ray Graver or a Paul Hon will come by and tell you how. Ironically, the LSM has recently been trying to legitimise Lee by marketing him as a "global Chinese Christian leader", using pseudo-scholarly papers, e.g. Globalization of Chinese Christianity: A Study of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee's Ministry. Asia Journal of Theology. Apr 2016, Vol. 30 Issue 1, p 96-114. Author: Liu Yi. Truth is, he was just another businessman trying to make a living for his family. And his culturally-derived leanings showed when his income or family was threatened: then he was an angry Chinese man defending his business interests, reflexively using the only methods that he knew, in order to survive. Anyone on the wrong side found this out quickly and clearly! Back to the footnote - I know Drake doesn't like it when I use analogies, but Lee did, so I will also. Remember the tea bags and water? In this case I'll use Lee's animal analogies - remember his gophers and turtles? For example he'd say that people tried appear to be something, but eventually a "fox tail" would appear, or the true self would come out. In the footnote to Revelation 1:20 I see a Chinese fox-tail. How are local churches supposed to be exactly identical in "shape"? How are they supposed to be without any individual distinctiveness? The answer is, by following Headquarters and the dictates of Maximum Brother. It's a push for centralisation and control, with hardly the slightest hint of spiritual veneer. And he shows his cultural roots: uniformity and conformity equals "oneness", LSM-style. One further point: if you look at whatever was going on in the LC when Lee was giving his Life Study Conferences, then you'll usually find the source of his "vision"; it was indeed a "timely word". . . check the date of the Revelation training and probably some church or regional leader was getting too "distinctive" if you know what I mean. The whole thing was political to further selfish business interests. (Ohio tells us that one day Witness Lee rang up Titus Chu, and informed him, "You just bought 1,000 chairs". Evidently one of his family's business deals went south.) This thread grew out of a discussion on the Full Time Training. Drake had said, in effect, "It's not for everyone." I replied, "It's not for anyone" and pointed to stuff like this as my reasoning. I also mentioned other things as well but got challenged on a footnote so here we are.
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07-02-2018, 03:27 AM | #500 | |
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Re: Chinese/Asian Influence in The Local Church
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Lest readers think I'm merely trying to score debate points against a rival, I'd say rather that it's about ideas. Good ideas help us on our way & bad ideas hinder. I know families that split up, with parents going with the Dong-ites and children with LSM in Anaheim. The only "truth" that mattered was, "Who are you with?" Everyone felt maligned and persecuted by the other. And behind it all was flawed assumptions and teachings, uncritically received. Ignorance and fervor is a bad mix.
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