Who make up the "Nations" in the New Creation?

[Timotheist]

[reposted from another thread. It did not draw any comments the first time, so I am giving you another chance to opine.

I did not cite all of the scriptures justifying this list. But I swear I did not make this stuff up ]

Here is my take on who will make up the Nations in the New Creation:

1) None of the "goats" in Matt 25. they are the living unbelievers who survive until the second coming, and are immediately tossed into the LOF before the Millennial kingdom
2) The "sheep" in Matt 25, described as you did here. They will be allowed entrance into the Son's kingdom, to be ruled and reigned over by the kings and priests for 1000 years. I would venture to suggest that not ALL of these sheep will survive a second judgement. 1000 years is a long time, and they must be actively obedient to these leaders (and to Christ). Some, I fear, will resist and join Satan in the final rebellion. These are among the "tares" mentioned in that other parable.
3) Unbelieving Israelites (like the rich man in Luke). They will be resurrected and allowed a second chance during the Son's kingdom. For some of them their reward, like the obedient sheep, will be eternal life (also contingent upon continued obedience).
4) Believers who were judged at the Son's judgement seat and cast into Outer Darkness. They are described in the parable of the sower as those who initially received the Word of God but walked away. They will be saved through fire, but are not holy enough to dwell in the NJ.
5) And finally, a portion of the unbelievers who died and are not resurrected until the Great White Throne judgement. I believe this covers a segment of the population that never heard the gospel, but are saved nonetheless. They are given eternal life in a similar manner as the gentile sheep of Matt 25.

The parable of the Sower describes four different types of people, and the New Creation describes four outcomes:

1) The unholy. Those who have no eternal life and are tossed into the LOF.
2) The holy (Called). Not holy enough to draw close to the Throne, and will not get the TOL's fruit. But they will continue in eternal life via the water and the leaves distributed from the Throne. These are the "Nations".
3) The holier (Chosen). Primarily the Royal Priesthood who rule over the Nations. Out of the many who are "Called" these are the few "Chosen".
4) The holiest (Faithful). The Bride of the Lamb. Described as the "sons of Zadok" in Ezekiel. They are distinguished among the "Chosen" Levites as being also "Faithful".

What a load of eisegesis!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What a load of eisegesis!

Then please do the work to provide something better.

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What a load of eisegesis!

Don't know if this was a tease or a serious comment.

The term "eisegesis" was thrown out there in the other thread to contrast alleged interpretation of parables with "direct statements".

Let me just say this about the passages mentioned here:

1) The judgement of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is NOT a parable. It is stated with clarity that the judgement of the living Gentiles is coming, and that among them are those whose deeds earn them entrance into the kingdom.

2) The account of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke is NOT a parable, but is described as an actual event. Both men are Jews, but one is rewarded and the other is punished.

3) The parable of the Sower is a parable, but it is one of the few that comes with a clear interpretation.

4) Similarly, the parable of the wheat and the tares is followed by a clear interpretation.

No eisegesis going on here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Don't know if this was a tease or a serious comment.

The term "eisegesis" was thrown out there in the other thread to contrast alleged interpretation of parables with "direct statements".

Let me just say this about the passages mentioned here:

1) The judgement of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is NOT a parable. It is stated with clarity that the judgement of the living Gentiles is coming, and that among them are those whose deeds earn them entrance into the kingdom.

The message of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is troubling, and appears to indicate a monumental change in God's plan of salvation. This verse indicates that good works, specifically those caring for the suffering of God's children, can save us. Save us from God's judgment.

To most casual Protestant readers of the Bible this appears heretical, and must be "interpreted" according to the standard of faith alone in Christ alone. But is it really? Or is this new standard of salvation applicable during the end times?

Some Bible scholars have suggested that the gospel of grace thru faith has an expiration date, referred to in the Bible as the "fullness of the Gentiles comes in." (Rom 11) At this point God's plan once again focuses primarily on Israel. I think this will correspond to the rebuilding of the Temple, and the restoration of sacrifices, the final "week" prophesied in Daniel.

I think this new "message" of salvation is seen in Rev 14. An angel proclaims an "eternal gospel" to every nation to "Fear God." Fearing God is more related to our actions during the tribulation than to our belief in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in contrast to John 3.16, which clearly equates our faith to eternal life.

Receiving eternal life, i.e. being born again, or being born of the Spirit to become a child of God and an heir of God, differs from merely living forever, which apparently the good sheep, or the "nations" will do.


Will this mean that regeneration by the Spirit also has an expiration date?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The message of the sheep and goats in Matt 25 is troubling, and appears to indicate a monumental change in God's plan of salvation. This verse indicates that good works, specifically those caring for the suffering of God's children, can save us. Save us from God's judgment.

Yes, it does seem there is a change of age at the end of times. I call it the "age of judgment." I heard a pastor say that at the end of the age there is going to be unprecedented preaching of the gospel and huge number of people saved. Well, there is not even one account of a person in all of Revelation that is saved and baptized, or born again, or saved by faith, etc. Zero. Compare that with the rest of the New Testament, with Acts, with the Gospels. So yes, I see that during the last 3.5 years, even maybe the entire last 7 years, the age changes and salvation does not include regeneration and receiving Christ into you by faith. It is more of a works salvation based on fearing God, glorifying Him, worshipping Him, not receiving the mark of the Beast or worshipping the Beast, helping Jews and Christians (that have not been raptured yet).

If the two witnesses appear on the scene at the start of the last 7 years, (I think they do), it makes sense to have the change of age then. When Moses came with the Law, it changed the age. When Christ came with grace, it changed the age. So it follows that when the two witnesses come (I believe they are Moses and Elijah), they will change the age with their preaching. Then they are killed at the mid-point when the Beast comes up from the Abyss and overpowers them. So then the 3 angels start their preaching with the: eternal gospel, judgement on Babylon and warnings about following the Beast.

Another interesting point that might fit in is that Paul in 2 Thess. 2:7 talks about when "He that restrains is taken away" the lawless one (Antichrist) will be revealed. Many suggest that He who restrains is the Holy Spirit. So if the Holy Spirit is "taken away" it might partly explain why people are no longer born again with the Spirit.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, it does seem there is a change of age at the end of times. I call it the "age of judgment." I heard a pastor say that at the end of the age there is going to be unprecedented preaching of the gospel and huge number of people saved. Well, there is not even one account of a person in all of Revelation that is saved and baptized, or born again, or saved by faith, etc. Zero. Compare that with the rest of the New Testament, with Acts, with the Gospels. So yes, I see that during the last 3.5 years, even maybe the entire last 7 years, the age changes and salvation does not include regeneration and receiving Christ into you by faith. It is more of a works salvation based on fearing God, glorifying Him, worshipping Him, not receiving the mark of the Beast or worshipping the Beast, helping Jews and Christians (that have not been raptured yet).

If the two witnesses appear on the scene at the start of the last 7 years, (I think they do), it makes sense to have the change of age then. When Moses came with the Law, it changed the age. When Christ came with grace, it changed the age. So it follows that when the two witnesses come (I believe they are Moses and Elijah), they will change the age with their preaching. Then they are killed at the mid-point when the Beast comes up from the Abyss and overpowers them. So then the 3 angels start their preaching with the: eternal gospel, judgement on Babylon and warnings about following the Beast.

Another interesting point that might fit in is that Paul in 2 Thess. 2:7 talks about when "He that restrains is taken away" the lawless one (Antichrist) will be revealed. Many suggest that He who restrains is the Holy Spirit. So if the Holy Spirit is "taken away" it might partly explain why people are no longer born again with the Spirit.

Your first point about no record of salvation during the tribulation and the mention of “apostasy” in 2 Thess 2 has caused me to reconsider what I hear from nearly every minister today. They regularly prophesy of the coming great revival. They pray and sing about it. They scramble to extract verse remnants from the OT about it. It does sound appealing, no doubt, and even I have prayed and believed a great revival is coming. Couple weeks ago we gathered at the stadium downtown with dozens of churches praying for this revival.

But where is the justification from the New Testament? I can’t find it. Instead I read about “enduring” hardship to the end. I read about martyrdoms. I read about the love of many “growing cold.” I read about false teachers, false prophets, and false Christ’s. I see strong warnings not to be deceived. I can’t find anything that remotely indicates revival excitement is coming like everyone is talking about.

Can someone help me out here?

[Timotheist]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Receiving eternal life, i.e. being born again, or being born of the Spirit to become a child of God and an heir of God, differs from merely living forever, which apparently the good sheep, or the "nations" will do.


Will this mean that regeneration by the Spirit also has an expiration date?

Great discussion... thanks to both you and Raptor.

We have been trained to equate eternal life with "being born of the Spirit", and that is what is required to be saved in this age.

And I used to think like both of you that the "rules will change" during the Tribulation.

Now I am not so sure.

Consider the two thieves on the cross... Is one "saved" and the other not? If so, how was he saved? Did the Spirit come down and enter him just before he died? Apparently not. So he must be saved, but not in the manner that we think of today.

Can there not be two kinds of salvation? One based primarily on deeds and the other on hearing the Word and receiving the Spirit? I think the answer is 'yes', but the quality of life will be different: as in living as part of the Nations vs living in the NJ in the eternal kingdom.

I have often wanted to question Paul on exactly what he meant when he said:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

I don't see any mention of the word "Spirit" here... but I do see a lot about moral character (works), and the judgement thereof.

So that is why I think that the dead Gentiles will be raised and given a similar offer of eternal life at the GWT that the living Gentiles do after the Tribulation.

So will the rules change, or did we just not understand the rules?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

We have been trained to equate eternal life with "being born of the Spirit", and that is what is required to be saved in this age.

Eternal life, the life of God Himself who is able to birth us as newborn babes, to regenerate us, is not the same as living forever. Eternal life is the quality of that life. That's why as believers we believe that, though we may die, we will be resurrected unto a living hope. Most Christians would accept this as truth.

The nations, on the other hand, appear to enter into a kingdom "prepared from the foundation of the world." This kingdom begins with the return of the Son of Man in His glory.

What is strange is that Jesus called them "the righteous" in Matt 25.37. Apparently they became righteous, not by faith in His sacrifice for sins, but by good works, by fearing God. Yet they are not considered children of God, but "the nations." I assume they are the nations around the New Jerusalem who are healed by the leaves of the tree of life.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Consider the two thieves on the cross... Is one "saved" and the other not? If so, how was he saved? Did the Spirit come down and enter him just before he died? Apparently not. So he must be saved, but not in the manner that we think of today.

I have always wondered about this too. I consider the "thief" to be similar to all the OT believers. They believed looking forward to the coming Messiah, who would take away their sins. When these ones die, they are in the pleasant part of hades called paradise. Luke 16 discusses these two sections.

Imagine these two thieves, crucified on either side of Jesus, ending up on either side of that great chasm, just like Lazarus and the rich man, because of the last minute faith by the one thief. What discussions they must have had! Perhaps these two thieves were childhood friends who grew up together, yet ended up on the wrong side of the Roman law, and now separated by sin and faith.

Now the next question for me is whether these OT believers in the long-promised Messiah also become regenerated by the Spirit of God as we do after Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus obviously went to paradise and announced the Gospel to all of them. The long awaited Messiah had just showed up with "thief" the latest "arrival" in paradise. When Jesus resurrected from them in paradise, that is from the dead, did they also receive the Spirit? Did they also get taken to heaven? (Eph 4.8-10)