1000 Years Discipline

05-12-2022, 09:25 PM

Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

gr8ful · 05-12-2022, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malaysian Observer

Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

The return of the literal 1000 Year Kingdom (i.e., "chiliasm") as a Reward or Punishment is a relatively new Christian doctrine, however, The Lord's Recovery is not the only group to teach this.

Nevertheless, there is a direct refutation of some of the key points that are used to convince us that saved Christians will face a thousand years of gnashing of teeth:

https://thelordsrecovery.org/archive...ine-version-1/

On the non-doctrinal side, there's how the teaching of the 1000 Years Reward / Punishment is used to instill fear of deviating from the "Vision," which just happens to be presented by one man, or now, one committee of men (the Blended Brothers). Fearing that we'll miss the reward or suffer 1000 of punishment if we dare go against "God's Deputy Authority" or consider attending a different church isn't a "Vision."

Timotheist · 05-13-2022, 04:10 AM

Whether or not W Lee was correct or not in his assertions about the Outer Darkness, I have to accept that there will be rewards and punishments at the first judgement.

Otherwise, why have a judgement at all?

So if posters want to pick on Lee on this topic, then I expect that “rewards and punishments” of the believers be defined by these same posters.

“No punishment” is not an answer.

Zezima · 05-13-2022, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timotheist

Whether or not W Lee was correct or not in his assertions about the Outer Darkness, I have to accept that there will be rewards and punishments at the first judgement.

Otherwise, why have a judgement at all?

So if posters want to pick on Lee on this topic, then I expect that “rewards and punishments” of the believers be defined by these same posters.

“No punishment” is not an answer.

Reading your expectations and wishes of others bending to your beliefs is the punishment.

Trapped · 05-13-2022, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zezima

Reading your expectations and wishes of others bending to your beliefs is the punishment.

Rather than submitting the readers to snark that provides no benefit to anyone, could you instead respond to Timotheist's reasoning that a judgment makes no sense unless there are both rewards and punishments? Is his statement here sound or not? If not, why Biblically?

Notice he's not saying there is or isn't a 1000 year thing. He's just speaking of reward and punishment in general. Many throw away the 1000 year thing and claim there is no punishment at all.....that seems to be the pendulum swing he is trying to avoid.

Trapped

UntoHim · 05-14-2022, 09:40 AM

To my friend Zezima, there is not much of a serious controversy regarding reward and punishment for believers among orthodox biblical teachers, scholars and apologists. I believe if one is to take the plain reading of the actual teachings of the original, scripture writing apostles, especially Paul, everything points to the Millennial Kingdom being a time of reward for some, and punishment, or discipline as it were, for others. I think many Christian teachers, and for our purposes here, especially Nee and Lee, were very wrong about the reasons for the rewards, and even more wrong about the reasons for the discipline. Maybe we can sort some of this out on this thread.

To everyone else....If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times...
Seriously, though, I think sometimes we concentrate too much on the number one thousand, and the mystery surrounding the when, where and how of all the punishments and rewards, all at the cost of missing the "forest" of what the Lord is asking of us in the here and now, for the "trees" of all the intrigue and mystery of who gets what punishment and who gets what reward, and the when and the how.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Ephesians 2:8,9 ESV
For by χάρις (charis; grace good will, loving-kindness, favor of the merciful kindness by which God ) you have been σῴζω (sōzō; saved; keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction)
~
Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds.
Revelation 22:12 NLT
Bringing my μισθός (misthos; reward; wages earned) with me to repay all people according to their ἔργον (ergon; an act, a deed)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
2nd Timothy 4:8 ESV
The crown of righteousness στέφανος stephanos δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē; (Crown of Righteousness) which the Lord, the righteous judge, will ἀποδίδωμι (apodidōmi; to requite, recompense in a good or a bad sense) to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia; a manifestation, the advent of Christ; past or future appearing, brightness.)
~
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.
2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV
So that each one may κομίζω (komizō; to get back, receive back) what is due for what he has (διά dia ὁ ho σῶμα sōma deeds in the body) whether ἀγαθός (agathos; good, excellent, distinguished, upright, honorable) εἴτε eite (or) κακός (kakos; bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious, destructive)

I think I'll keep my comments brief, and maybe let the verses I have posted here speak for themselves. Brothers and sisters, friends, readers, lurkers, the simple fact is that is we do not live and act as subjects of God's Kingdom today, then it should come as no big surprise that we will not enjoy the privileges and benefits of the Kingdom to come. If we do not submit our lives, our time, our energies, our heart and our minds to the righteous judge today, how could we possibly expect to have the privilege of receiving a crown of righteousness in the age to come? Every day, while we are still in this fleshly, earthly vessel, we are faced we choices - and these choices inevitably lead us to commit deeds that are "agathos" - good, excellent, distinguished, upright and honorable, or if we are not constantly on watch and on guard, they will lead us to commit deeds that are "kakos" - bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious and destructive. And the important thing to remember is that there will be a day of reckoning. If we live in outer darkness today, then maybe we will have to live in outer darkness for some period of time in the Kingdom to come. The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. Are we willing to endure the discipline and chastising in this age, in order to receive a crown of righteousness in the age to come? If we do not accept, and even love, the Lord appearing to us to discipline and correct us today, how could we expect to be rewarded by him at his "epiphaneia" - his second advent at the dawn of the age to come?
(Many thanks to BlueLetterBible.Org)
-

Zezima · 05-13-2022, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malaysian Observer

Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

Is there any biblical evidence that objectively says there’s a 1,000 year discipline?

No.

Paul Vusik · 06-01-2022, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I felt the same way at one point. I was brought under condemnation at the 2 Corinthians training for not being a good “salesman” bringing all my family into the Recovery.

You know Ohio,
We invited my mother to couple of meetings and conferences. She came and listened, and never said anything about it. She has been a Christian all her life.
When by Gods mercy, He pulled me out of it, I spoke to my mother and told her where we have been. She said, you know, I couldn’t tell you this then, because you wouldn’t listen, but the couple times I visited that church, it was some of the most suffocating and pressurized environment I have felt being anywhere in my life. I’m not sure if anyone else can attest to that, but after I have left that and ask God to completely free me from all of its connections and influences of any kind, I feel the same way.

Raptor · 06-03-2022, 03:33 AM

Sharing authority and joy with Christ as a reward in the Kingdom is a conditional matter as seen in the following verses: CONDITION: faithful, overcoming, enduring, good, wise. REWARD: authority, responsibility, reigning, joy.

Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their portion at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. Matt. 12:42-44

Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’ Matt. 25:21

‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ Luke. 19:17.

If we endure, we will also reign together with Him; if we will deny Him, He also will deny us; 2 Tim. 2:12

And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery. Rev. 2:26-27

Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev. 20:4.

To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne. Rev. 3:21.

Matt Anderson · 06-09-2022, 06:47 AM

I rely on some things when thinking about this subject.

1. The Bible is not completely clear
2. God is righteous in His judgments
3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ.
4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot.
5. My Father in heaven loves me

The verses regarding "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are not clear as to their targets. They could be referring to the "good believers vs. bad believers" or "believers vs. non-believers". As a result, I think about what the Bible says, the nature of God and how He has dealt with me in all aspects of my life to form an opinion here. It is just an opinion.

I believe that the real goal for us now is to become as fully mature in Christ as possible (Ephesians 4). I believe that the process of growth includes making mistakes and having problems that we can't find our way past. However, if we focus on the Lord then we will mature. We may not know or be fully willing to mature as much as we could, but we should be encouraged to grow as much as possible and to ask God to supply where there is any lack of ability or willingness.

With all these things in mind, I completely set aside trying to definitively resolve this issue about believers being in "outer darkness" for some or all of the Millennial kingdom. God has a plan for each one of us to FULLY participate in eternity (beyond the Millennial kingdom) and He consistently sets forward the idea of rewards vs. punishments under both the Old Covenant and the New Testament. Whatever I have to go through to reach the measure of maturity God has in mind for me, I simply ask for Him to supply me with what I need to walk the path. On the day we are judged as believers, we will all fall short, but we have a good and loving Father who is judging us. Yes, he is righteous, but I am not afraid because of how I see He has taken care of me so far through all the good and bad things I have done and all the good and bad things in my heart.

Matt

Nell · 06-09-2022, 08:59 AM

Your post makes a lot of sense, Matt. It seems that the meaning of the verses on this (or any) topic...generally speaking...imply a more personal matter. i.e., did you figure out with your natural mind your position on 1000 Years Discipline all by yourself? Did you read a verse and form an opinion, or do you trust your personal relationship with God to spiritually reveal in His own time, the/a matter, to you.

It seems to me that the best takeaway from the "1000 Years Discipline" discussion of the topic might be: "I'm not sure...". Or as you have stated:
1. The Bible is not completely clear
2. God is righteous in His judgments
3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ.
4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot.
5. My Father in heaven loves me

Consider 1 Corinthians 2:12-16
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

These verses address the scriptural "requirements" for interpreting scripture: Not my requirements.

12: not by the spirit of the world, but the spirit of God. What is the "spirit of the world"? Well, what we know for sure is that the spirit of the world is not the spirit of God.

13: not by the words of man's wisdom, but the teaching of the Holy Spirit...comparing spiritual with spiritual. What is "man's wisdom"? It seems that man's wisdom is whatever man figures out on his own without the benefit of the spirit of God. (Leaning to man's own understanding perhaps?)

14: spiritual matters are foolish to the "natural" (not spiritual) man. Is it possible that literal verses in the scripture can be subject to foolish (natural) interpretation based on "man's wisdom"? But...but...but...The Bible says "this". The Bible doesn't say "that".

15: the spiritual man judges but is not judged. Huh?

16: Who has known the mind of the Lord? (Similar to the question/discourse to Job.) Do you, natural man, know what you're talking about? Do you really think you, natural man, are qualified to teach (or speak for) God?

Zezima · 06-09-2022, 09:14 AM

If the Bible isn’t clear on a doctrine, then that should be proof enough to debunk a strongly preached doctrine in the Recovery right?

05-12-2022, 09:25 PM	#1
Malaysian Observer Guest Posts: n/a	1000 Years Discipline Is there any discussions, videos, or topics that will debunk the 1000 years discipline the in millennial kingdom?

05-13-2022, 04:10 AM	#3
Timotheist Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 424	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Whether or not W Lee was correct or not in his assertions about the Outer Darkness, I have to accept that there will be rewards and punishments at the first judgement. Otherwise, why have a judgement at all? So if posters want to pick on Lee on this topic, then I expect that “rewards and punishments” of the believers be defined by these same posters. “No punishment” is not an answer.

05-14-2022, 09:40 AM	#6
UntoHim Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,824	Re: 1000 Years Discipline To my friend Zezima, there is not much of a serious controversy regarding reward and punishment for believers among orthodox biblical teachers, scholars and apologists. I believe if one is to take the plain reading of the actual teachings of the original, scripture writing apostles, especially Paul, everything points to the Millennial Kingdom being a time of reward for some, and punishment, or discipline as it were, for others. I think many Christian teachers, and for our purposes here, especially Nee and Lee, were very wrong about the reasons for the rewards, and even more wrong about the reasons for the discipline. Maybe we can sort some of this out on this thread. To everyone else....If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times... Seriously, though, I think sometimes we concentrate too much on the number one thousand, and the mystery surrounding the when, where and how of all the punishments and rewards, all at the cost of missing the "forest" of what the Lord is asking of us in the here and now, for the "trees" of all the intrigue and mystery of who gets what punishment and who gets what reward, and the when and the how. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8,9 ESV For by χάρις (charis; grace good will, loving-kindness, favor of the merciful kindness by which God ) you have been σῴζω *(sōzō; saved; keep safe and sound, to rescue from danger or destruction)* ~ Look, I am coming soon, bringing my reward with me to repay all people according to their deeds. Revelation 22:12 NLT Bringing my μισθός *(misthos; reward; wages earned)* with me to repay all people according to their *ἔργον (ergon; an act, a deed)* ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. 2nd Timothy 4:8 ESV The crown of righteousness *στέφανος stephanos δικαιοσύνη dikaiosynē; (Crown of Righteousness)* which the Lord, the righteous judge, will ἀποδίδωμι (apodidōmi; to requite, recompense in a good or a bad sense) to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his ἐπιφάνεια (epiphaneia; a manifestation, the advent of Christ; past or future appearing, brightness.) ~ For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. 2 Corinthians 5:10 ESV So that each one may κομίζω (komizō; to get back, receive back) what is due for what he has (διά dia ὁ ho σῶμα sōma deeds in the body) whether ἀγαθός (agathos; good, excellent, distinguished, upright, honorable) εἴτε eite (or) κακός (kakos; bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious, destructive) I think I'll keep my comments brief, and maybe let the verses I have posted here speak for themselves. Brothers and sisters, friends, readers, lurkers, the simple fact is that is we do not live and act as subjects of God's Kingdom today, then it should come as no big surprise that we will not enjoy the privileges and benefits of the Kingdom to come. If we do not submit our lives, our time, our energies, our heart and our minds to the righteous judge today, how could we possibly expect to have the privilege of receiving a crown of righteousness in the age to come? Every day, while we are still in this fleshly, earthly vessel, we are faced we choices - and these choices inevitably lead us to commit deeds that are "agathos" - good, excellent, distinguished, upright and honorable, or if we are not constantly on watch and on guard, they will lead us to commit deeds that are "kakos" - bad, wrong, wicked, injurious, pernicious and destructive. And the important thing to remember is that there will be a day of reckoning. If we live in outer darkness today, then maybe we will have to live in outer darkness for some period of time in the Kingdom to come. The Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. Are we willing to endure the discipline and chastising in this age, in order to receive a crown of righteousness in the age to come? If we do not accept, and even love, the Lord appearing to us to discipline and correct us today, how could we expect to be rewarded by him at his "epiphaneia" - his second advent at the dawn of the age to come? (Many thanks to BlueLetterBible.Org) - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

06-03-2022, 03:33 AM	#9
Raptor Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 414	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Sharing authority and joy with Christ as a reward in the Kingdom is a conditional matter as seen in the following verses: CONDITION: faithful, overcoming, enduring, good, wise. REWARD: authority, responsibility, reigning, joy. Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their portion at the proper time? 43Blessed is that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 44Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. Matt. 12:42-44 Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!’ Matt. 25:21 ‘Well done, good servant! Because you have been faithful in a very small matter, you shall have authority over ten cities.’ Luke. 19:17. If we endure, we will also reign together with Him; if we will deny Him, He also will deny us; 2 Tim. 2:12 And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations. 27He will rule them with an iron scepter and shatter them like pottery. Rev. 2:26-27 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Rev. 20:4. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to sit with Me on My throne. Rev. 3:21.

06-09-2022, 06:47 AM	#10
Matt Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 155	Re: 1000 Years Discipline I rely on some things when thinking about this subject. 1. The Bible is not completely clear 2. God is righteous in His judgments 3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ. 4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot. 5. My Father in heaven loves me The verses regarding "weeping and gnashing of teeth" are not clear as to their targets. They could be referring to the "good believers vs. bad believers" or "believers vs. non-believers". As a result, I think about what the Bible says, the nature of God and how He has dealt with me in all aspects of my life to form an opinion here. It is just an opinion. I believe that the real goal for us now is to become as fully mature in Christ as possible (Ephesians 4). I believe that the process of growth includes making mistakes and having problems that we can't find our way past. However, if we focus on the Lord then we will mature. We may not know or be fully willing to mature as much as we could, but we should be encouraged to grow as much as possible and to ask God to supply where there is any lack of ability or willingness. With all these things in mind, I completely set aside trying to definitively resolve this issue about believers being in "outer darkness" for some or all of the Millennial kingdom. God has a plan for each one of us to FULLY participate in eternity (beyond the Millennial kingdom) and He consistently sets forward the idea of rewards vs. punishments under both the Old Covenant and the New Testament. Whatever I have to go through to reach the measure of maturity God has in mind for me, I simply ask for Him to supply me with what I need to walk the path. On the day we are judged as believers, we will all fall short, but we have a good and loving Father who is judging us. Yes, he is righteous, but I am not afraid because of how I see He has taken care of me so far through all the good and bad things I have done and all the good and bad things in my heart. Matt

06-09-2022, 08:59 AM	#11
Nell Admin/Moderator Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 2,100	Re: 1000 Years Discipline Your post makes a lot of sense, Matt. It seems that the meaning of the verses on this (or any) topic...generally speaking...imply a more personal matter. i.e., did you figure out with your natural mind your position on 1000 Years Discipline all by yourself? Did you read a verse and form an opinion, or do you trust your personal relationship with God to spiritually reveal in His own time, the/a matter, to you. It seems to me that the best takeaway from the "1000 Years Discipline" discussion of the topic might be: "I'm not sure...". Or as you have stated: 1. The Bible is not completely clear 2. God is righteous in His judgments 3. God judges each one of us individually based on our deeds and the condition of our heart. There is no group aspect to this judgment. It is entirely individual as siblings in Christ. 4. Do not be afraid. Jesus says this a lot. 5. My Father in heaven loves me Consider 1 Corinthians 2:12-16 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ. These verses address the scriptural "requirements" for interpreting scripture: Not my requirements. 12: not by the spirit of the world, but the spirit of God. What is the "spirit of the world"? Well, what we know for sure is that the spirit of the world is not the spirit of God. 13: not by the words of man's wisdom, but the teaching of the Holy Spirit...comparing spiritual with spiritual. What is "man's wisdom"? It seems that man's wisdom is whatever man figures out on his own without the benefit of the spirit of God. (Leaning to man's own understanding perhaps?) 14: spiritual matters are foolish to the "natural" (not spiritual) man. Is it possible that literal verses in the scripture can be subject to foolish (natural) interpretation based on "man's wisdom"? But...but...but...The Bible says "this". The Bible doesn't say "that". 15: the spiritual man judges but is not judged. Huh? 16: Who has known the mind of the Lord? (Similar to the question/discourse to Job.) Do you, natural man, know what you're talking about? Do you really think you, natural man, are qualified to teach (or speak for) God?

06-09-2022, 09:14 AM	#12
Zezima Member Join Date: Jul 2021 Posts: 361	Re: 1000 Years Discipline If the Bible isn’t clear on a doctrine, then that should be proof enough to debunk a strongly preached doctrine in the Recovery right?