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07-15-2010, 09:47 PM
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He came not to be Served but Serve
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 39
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Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES
EXAMINING LSM’s ESCHATOLOGY—REVELATION’S 7 CHURCHES A Case Study of LSM’s Prophetic-Historical Interpretation of John’s Apocalypse Watchman Nee and Witness Lee were outstanding Bible expositors and Christian leaders in their own spheres. However, they added nothing to the field of biblical eschatology—the study of end time events. In prophetic matters, W. Nee and W. Lee merely adopted the dispensational theology developed by John N. Darby (1800-82) of the Plymouth Brethren plus a few other 19th century commentators.1 Hence, the Local Church, like the Brethren, espouses a literal millennial kingdom to be inaugurated by Christ’s return and the pre-millennial rapture of believers.2 They differ from Darby on secondary issues—e.g., their doctrine of multiple raptures3 (early overcoming minority and later majority-raptures) in contrast to Darby’s pre-tribulation rapture of all believers—a popular view portrayed in the Left Behind series.4 Almost two centuries have elapsed since the Brethren’s eschatological views were first proposed. Significant world events have transpired causing Bible scholars, including some dispensationalists, to re-evaluate their prophetic teachings.5 Within the Local Church, however, Brethren eschatology continues to be reiterated in rote fashion as it has been for decades.6 Indeed it now holds the unassailable position of Local Church orthodoxy, having been “canonized as the interpreted word” in LSM’s Recovery Version of the Bible.7 LSM’s prophetic teachings ought to be re-evaluated in the light of world events and recent biblical scholarship. That is a huge task; it encompasses Daniel’s prophecy of “70 weeks,” the four beasts, Babylon, the Antichrist etc. Ultimately only after-the-fact can such teachings as single- or multiple raptures be verified or denied. Therefore, instead of addressing the entire field of eschatology, we focus on a single aspect—LSM’s prophetic-historical interpretation of Revelation’s seven churches (Rev. 2-3). ARE REVELATION’S SEVEN CHURCHES PROPHETIC? All Bible expositors agree John’s seven brief epistles were addressed to seven churches existing in the late-1st century Roman province of Asia. In each epistle the Lord diagnoses the condition and offers His prescription. Hence scholars seek to understand their meaning at the time of writing. Moreover, expositors extend these lessons to the present era via “devotional” applications to individual believers and congregations.8 In addition some expositors argue that the seven epistles ought to be interpreted prophetically, portraying (at the time of writing) the future course of the Church throughout the Age of Grace. From the vantage of later centuries this leads to a historicist interpretation, matching past Church history with Scripture.9 Others reject this prophetic-historical interpretation of Revelation 2 and 3, including some Bible teachers who accept the remainder of John’s Apocalypse as prophecy.10 W. Nee and W. Lee adopted the Brethren’s prophetic interpretation11 of Revelation’s seven churches. These churches are viewed not only as 1st century local churches, but also as foreshadowing the future course of Church history. This prophetic-historical view was embodied in Andrew Miller’s Church History, (1873)12 and popularized via Scofield’s Reference Bible (1909, 1917).13 Watchman Nee used this prophetic scheme in his Orthodoxy of the Church (1945).14 W. Lee’s Life-study of Revelation replicates it; the first page states, “The seven epistles to the seven churches…are prophecies regarding the church on earth until the Lord’s coming back.”15 He elaborates,16 “the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 match the stages of church history. The history of the church from the first century to the present is clearly divided into seven stages: the initial stage, the suffering stage, the worldly stage, the apostate stage, the stage of Reformation, the stage of the recovered church, and the stage of the degradation of the recovered church.” Note that this interpretation concerns the outward appearance of the Church, including the “apostate Church,” not merely the invisible “true Church,” composed only of genuine believers.17 These stages are then identified in history. LSM’s Recovery Version Bible summarizes the results, saying “The seven churches also are signs, signifying prophetically the progress of the church in seven stages…Ephesus, provides a picture of the end of the initial church…during the latter part of the first century… Smyrna prefigures the suffering church under the persecution of the Roman Empire, from the latter part of the first century to the early part of the fourth century, when Constantine… Caesar of the Roman Empire, brought the church into imperial favor…Pergamos pre-symbolizes the worldly church…from the day Constantine accepted Christianity to the time the papal system was established …Thyatira depicts prophetically the apostate church…the papal system in the latter part of the sixth century to the end of this age… Sardis prefigures the Protestant Church from the Reformation in the early part of the sixteenth century to Christ's coming back.…Philadelphia predicts the church of brotherly love, the recovery of the proper church life, from the early part of the nineteenth century, when the brothers were raised up in England to practice the church outside all denominational …systems, to the second appearing of the Lord. Laodicea foreshadows the degraded church life of the brothers…from the latter part of the nineteenth century until the Lord's return.”18 In this paradigm, John’s Apocalypse predicts “the progress of the church in seven stages”—churches matching those in Revelation 2 and 3 appear successively (in the sequence described) over the course of the Age of Grace, until the Lord’s return. Yet, although “seven stages of the church” are identified, only four types of church are predicted to persist until the Lord’s return. Hence Witness Lee says, “The seven churches…symbolize the seven kinds of churches in church history…The initial church had its continuation in the suffering church; the suffering church became the worldly church; and the worldly church became the apostate church. Hence, the first four churches issued eventually in one kind of church…the Roman Catholic Church. Then the reformed church…came into existence as another kind of church, a church not fully recovered. Hence, after this, the recovered church was raised up as a full recovery of the proper church life. This…[is] the third kind of church. Through the degradation of the recovered church, the degraded recovered church came into being. This can be counted as the fourth kind of church. These four kinds of churches will all remain until the Lord comes back. Undoubtedly, only the recovered church can fulfill God's eternal purpose…” [W. Lee, Rev. 3:22, RcV., note 1, emphasis added] These are dogmatic assertions. LSM’s interpretation is not merely that the Church will pass through seven successive stages, beginning with Ephesus (the loss of the first love) and ending with lukewarm Laodicea. Their paradigm is much more specific. The first three kinds of churches (Ephesus, Smyrna and Pergamum) are past—“these three are of one group…they have all passed away”19—they were fulfilled in previous eras of Church history. According to this view, since the Roman Catholic Church first developed, no church on earth has matched the initial church, suffering church or worldly church portrayed in Revelation 2. These three have come and gone. These assertions ought to be checked against history—e.g., did the “suffering church” really cease after A.D. 300? According to this doctrine, only the last four (Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia & Laodicea) exist on earth today, and they will continue to the end of the age—“the last four continue their days on the earth together…they end at the same time.”20 Hence W. Nee states,21 “In this age God shows us four different churches…There are the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant churches, the brothers who love one another and the Brethren Assemblies. The fourth one, the Brethren Assemblies, has fallen into the position of Laodicea.” Therefore, he asserts, “There are four different kinds of churches from which we may choose.”22 Beyond these four, no further manifestations of the church are predicted. Apart from the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant- Reformed churches, the recovered church and the degraded recovered [Brethren] church, this view contemplates no fifth or sixth kind of church. This last point is far from innocuous—it is these four and no more! These are unequivocal statements which can be tested against twenty centuries of recorded Christian history. We note that LSM’s interpretations are very specific. Sardis does not represent denominations generally, but those mainline Protestant denominations—e.g., Lutheran, Reformed, Presbyterian, and Baptist—which emerged from the sixteenth century Reformation.23 Laodicea portrays, not the church under a general malaise, but degraded Philadelphia. “Only failing Philadelphia can become Laodicea…Only that which has tasted the goodness of Philadelphia and is now fallen is Laodicea.”24 Hence the latter is specifically identified as the degraded Plymouth Brethren. NO MORE STAGES, NO NEW DEVELOPMENTS, NO FURTHER PROGRESS As a prophecy of the church’s progress in the 20th and 21st centuries LSM’s interpretation of Revelation’s seven churches predicts no change—no more stages, no new developments, no further progress—only a perpetuation of the status quo. In fact, as of 150 years ago, this prophetic-historical approach had already exhausted its predictive content in terms of new manifestations of the church. Once the last kind of church appeared this view predicts no further progress for the church. According to LSM’s exposition, by the 1830s and 1840s, each of the final four manifestations of the church—represented by Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea—were already present on the earth. The Roman Catholic had existed for centuries. The mainline Protestant churches emerged from the 16th century Reformation. Then “in 1825, Philadelphia appeared and the [Plymouth] brothers rose up…Then after 1840, Laodicea appeared. [So] today [W. Nee said in 1945] there are four different kinds of churches…four ways from which we can choose.”25 In fact, a century earlier—by 1850—all four kinds of church already existed. Everything signified “prophetically [concerning] the progress of the church in seven stages”26 had already been fulfilled at that time. No further, “eighth stage of the church” is contemplated in this paradigm; no new expressions of the church are feasible. Every church in the 20th and 21st centuries, no matter how innovative it appears, falls into one of these four categories. There is no possibility of a fifth- or sixth kind appearing, nor is the reappearance of the first three kinds—Ephesus, Smyrna & Pergamum—possible. Evidently, since 1850 churches have either cycled through these options or remained firmly in one type. Bible scholars note that among the seven churches only two (Smyrna & Philadelphia) escape the Lord’s rebuke; only the latter is positively commended. Hence Philadelphia is the best. In the historical-prophetic view, this implies the church’s expression reached its apex among the early Brethren, during the era of John N. Darby, George Muller, Anthony Norris Groves etc., in the period 1825-40. Hence, W. Lee declares,27 “In the late 1820s the brothers were raised up in England as the fulfillment of the church in Philadelphia.” He also states,28 “Approximately 150 years ago the recovered church began in England …it was wonderful. It was a real recovery of the church life.” Since the Brethren already attained the peak, the highest attainment any church can achieve afterwards is to regain Philadelphia’s status, to recover the early Brethren’s Philadelphian condition. Ironically, this means “the present Recovery” is not the “original recovery” (that status belongs to the Brethren); rather it is a “re-recovery,” a substitute Philadelphia, replacing the Brethren after their fall into Laodicea. Viewed through this prism the “Lord’s recovery” did not produce a new kind of church, nor is it a new stage. It is merely a replacement.29 ONLY FOUR KINDS OF CHURCH? LSM’s paradigm predicts only four kinds of Church—“there are four different kinds of churches.” All Christians around the globe belong to one of these four. The possibilities are identified— “there are the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant churches, the brothers who love one another and the Brethren Assemblies,” W. Nee declared. The third possibility, Philadelphia, “the brothers who love one another,” is not explicitly identified. Yet, doubtless, LSM-adherents view themselves as “the recovered church.”30 The table below31 gives global membership statistics according to LSM’s paradigm circa. 2005. Type in Rev. Church Mega-bloc Members Percent Thyatira Roman Catholic 1,119M 50.1% Sardis Protestant & Anglican 456M 20.4% Philadelphia LSM’s Local Church 1.15M 0.05% Laodicea Plymouth Brethren 3.57M 0.16% TOTAL Rows 1-4 above 1,580M 70.7% Independents 427M 19.1% Eastern Orthodox 220M 9.8% There were 2.2 billion global Christians in 2005. One-half are Roman Catholic (“Thyatira”); another 20% were Protestant (“Sardis”). These two categories account for 70% of global Christians. The next two rows—LSM’s Local Church (“Philadelphia”) and the Brethren (“Laodicea”)—are a tiny fractions of global Christians. LSM’s Local Church constitute one-two thousandth; combined they represent only one-five hundredth of global believers. Taken together LSM’s four categories account for only 70% of Christians. Strikingly, almost 30% of global Christians (about 650M people) don’t fit within LSM’s interpretive scheme. Two major group omissions are the Eastern Orthodox and “Independents.” The first omission reflects the LSM-scheme’s focus on Western Europe; the Eastern Church is ignored. The second reflects the rising number of post-denominational churches which reject historic organized Christianity. Many of these “independent churches” are charismatic and/or indigenous churches in the Third world. The most serious problem for LSM’s prophetic-historical view is its prediction of no further progress, merely a perpetuation of the status quo represented by four kinds of church. The 20th and 21st centuries have seen a significant progression in the global Christian Church. These developments don’t match the “holding pattern” predicted by LSM’s prophetic paradigm. The on-going transformation of the global Church caused one scholar to declare32Consider the following examples of progression. “we are at a moment as epochal as the Reformation itself—a Reformation moment…for the entire Christian world.” THE RISE OF THE PENTECOSTAL-CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT Regardless of whether its origins are traced back to Azusa Street (1906) or earlier, the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement has become a significant force in the Christian faith. Observers refer to three successive waves—the Pentecostal, Charismatic and Neo-charismatic waves. Together they are the most significant 20th century development among Christians. Professor Johnson says,33 “The [Charismatic] renewal…experienced a meteoric rise in the twentieth century. Renewalists grew at five and a half times the rate of growth of global Christianity as a whole.” The combined number of Pentecostal-Charismatic believers grew from 1 million in 1906 to 600 million in 2006. As a percentage of global Christians they grew from a mere 0.2% to 27.6%. Moreover, by 2025 Charismatic believers are projected to reach 800 million, or 30% of Christians world-wide.34 Professor Anderson asserts they have precipitated35 “a twentieth-century reformation of Christianity.” “By the end of the 20th century, Pentecostal and charismatic Christianity…had expanded into almost every country on earth. It had become an extremely significant movement within global Christianity…It is probably the fastest expanding religious movement in the world ever, certainly the fastest within Christianity.” Such developments cannot be ignored. LSM’s dismissive retort—“we don’t care about numbers”—is undercut by W. Lee’s recorded challenge to a Pentecostal leader, based on relative numbers—“Do you have the power or do I have the power?”36 Yet, despite its obvious importance, there is no place for the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement within LSM’s prophetic framework. There is no room for a “fifth kind of church” at the close of the Age of Grace. The Pentecostal-Charismatic churches are not Sardis—that represents the Protestant churches which issued from the 16th century Reformation. One solution to this dilemma is proposed by the “Midnight Cry,” published by “a brother in Kansas City.” This tract identifies both the Plymouth Brethren and Watchman Nee’s “Little Flock” as the fulfillment of Philadelphia. The prophecy of Laodicea is then (allegedly) fulfilled by37 “The Deception of the Charismatic Renewal (AD 1900-Tribulation)”! Few Christians would endorse this extreme position. Nevertheless the author recognizes the failure of this prophetic scheme to account for the 20th century Pentecostal-Charismatic movement. In their own search for a prophetic identity, Pentecostals found their own identity, not in Revelation 2-3, but in the promised “latter rain” in Joel 2:23 and 28.38 Regardless of our attitude to that claim, the fact remains that the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, despite its manifest importance in 20th century Christianity, finds no place in LSM’s interpretation of John’s Apocalypse chapters 2 and 3. This is a serious omission. INCREASING IMPORTANCE OF INDEPENDENT CHURCHES The 20th century saw dramatic growth in the number of believers meeting as independent churches, diverse gatherings “completely independent of historic organized Christianity,” composed of Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Protestant denominations. Barrett calls such independent churches a “huge new Christian mega-bloc” and “a vast movement, contemporary post-denominationalism [he says] is a movement sweeping throughout the churches worldwide,”39 consisting of “423M Independents in 222 countries [who] have no interest in and no use for historic denominationalist Christianity.”40 Typical of this category are 68 million believers meeting as house churches in mainland China (2005) of which 10 million claim affiliation with Watchman Nee.41 Most Chinese Christians gather apart from historic organized Christianity. Given China’s history, this is discontinuity is hardly surprising; 60 years ago foreign missionaries were expelled, churches closed and Christian leaders (e.g., W. Nee) imprisoned. The Church in China passed through a “dark night.” What emerged was independent of historic organized Christianity; it was initiated by the Spirit through Chinese believers. They are “Chinese-initiated Churches.” Today a majority of the 100 million believers in China gather apart from the Roman Catholic, Protestant and Brethren churches and also apart from the government-sponsored “Three-self Church.”42 Again they don’t fit within LSM’s prophetic paradigm based on historical western Christianity. Also illustrative of this genre is the "African Independent Church," [AIC] defined as "a church which has been founded in Africa, by Africans, and primarily for Africans." They are a form of43 “indigenized Christianity that has consciously rejected Western ecclesiastical models and forms of being Christian;” they view themselves as “a reformation of over-Europeanized Christianity." Prof. Anderson describes the AICs as44 “an indigenous reformation and transformation of Christianity unprecedented in the history of the worldwide church.” These African churches view themselves as the fulfillment, not of Revelation 2-3, but of Psalm 68:31, “Cush will stretch out her hands to God.” Similar “independent post-denominational churches” have proliferated globally. They include the Indigenous Churches of India, assemblies45 raised up by Watchman Nee’s contemporary, Bakht Singh in India. The Local Churches declare that46 “We stand outside of and apart from historical, organized, institutionalized Christianity.” If we take this declaration seriously, we cannot simply dismiss in cavalier fashion the independent churches’ declaration that they also are “completely independent of historic organized Christianity.” They deserve to be treated as such. In 1900 there were 8 million believers within “independent churches” worldwide (1.7% of all church members). By 2010 this number had risen to 420 million (20% of global Christians).47 This means that one-in-five Christians meet as independent churches, unaffiliated with Roman Catholic, Orthodox or mainline Protestant denominations. Moreover, adherents reject the claim they are merely transplanted versions of western Pentecostalism.48 They include members of indigenous churches of Africa, Asia and Latin America, like China’s “house churches.”49 Such churches disavow historical descent from the various forms of organized Christianity which arose in Europe since the Middle Ages. Hence, they belong to neither Thyatira, nor Sardis; nor are they affiliated to the Plymouth Brethren, nor “the Recovery.” They don’t fit within the four groups defined by LSM’s prophetic interpretation of Revelation 2 and 3. On occasion LSM-publications acknowledge the existence of both “Pentecostal churches and independent groups” as distinct from Catholics, Protestants and the Brethren. For example in their critique of Christianity, LSM alleges that50 “the Catholic Church, the Protestant denominations, the Brethren Assemblies, the Pentecostal churches and the various independent groups have been held back by their imperfect and unscriptural theology….” These five categories of Christianity are directly contrasted with “the Lord’s recovery.”51 But notice that, within LSM’s prophetic paradigm, “the Catholic Church, the Protestant denominations, the Brethren Assemblies” are identified with Thyatira, Sardis and Laodicea (respectively). The question arises—with what are “the Pentecostal churches and the various independent groups” identified? They don’t fit within LSM’s prophetic scheme of four kinds of churches. SHIFT TOWARDS THE GLOBAL SOUTH The twentieth century saw a52 “remarkable…demographic shift in the global Christian community,” away from Europe and North America and towards the global South. “In 1910 over 80% of all Christians lived in Europe and Northern America. By 2010 this has fallen to less than 40%, with the majority of Christians located in Africa, Asia, and Latin America.”53 This is reflected in “a decisive southern shift…in the statistical center of global Christianity” from SW. Europe to sub-Sahara Africa. Compared to previous centuries, “this 100-year shift is the most dramatic in all of Christian history,”54 says scholar Todd Johnson. Professor Andrew F. Walls observes that55 “The twentieth [century] has been the most remarkable for the transformation of Christianity…producing the radical shift in the cultural and demographic composition of the Christian church.” Europe, which was for centuries the heartland of Christianity, is rapidly entering the “post-Christian era.” Meanwhile the Christian faith is growing rapidly elsewhere. Christianity is no longer a “white man’s religion”—the percentage of global Christians who are ‘white’ has declined steadily from over 80% in 1900; it is projected to reach 30% by 2025.56 Prof. Walls declares that57 “The most striking feature of Christianity at the end of the second millennium is that it is predominantly a non-Western religion…the representative Christianity of the 21st century will be that of Africa, Asia, Latin and Caribbean America, and the Pacific.” Professor Robert concurs, saying58 “The transformation of world Christianity since the Second World War—[has seen] a massive cultural and geographic shift away from Europeans and their descendants toward peoples of the Southern Hemisphere.” Prof. Jenkins argues a distinct expression of the church—a “Third Church in the Third World”—is emerging in southern continents. He writes59 “In the global South (the…Third World) huge and growing Christian populations…now make up what…has [been] called the Third Church, a form of Christianity as distinct as Protestantism or Orthodoxy, and one that is likely to become dominant in the faith.”Given these seismic shifts, it is difficult to accept LSM’s thesis that nothing significant has happened to the global church during the last century! Hasn’t the global Church entered another stage? LSM’s PROPHETIC-HISTORICAL VIEW IS EURO-CENTRIC Evaluated from a 21st century perspective, LSM’s prophetic-historical interpretation of the seven churches is distinctly euro-centric. It finds the prophetic fulfillment of Revelation’s seven churches within the context of Christianity as it unfolded in the history of Europe, specifically Western Europe. LSM’s exposition never mentions Christianity’s early growth outside the Roman Empire—in Persia, Syria and Ethiopia for example. There is also no recognition of the Eastern Orthodox branch of Christianity60 No reference is made to the rise of Islam and its decimation of Christian churches.61 Isn’t this also Smyrna? LSM’s prophetic doctrine of Church history fails to recognize the spread of the Christian faith beyond Europe and North America during the past two centuries. LSM’s narrative runs from Constantine (Caesar of the Roman Empire), through the rise of the Roman Catholic papal system, on via the Protestant Reformation to the growth and degradation of the British Brethren. Every key historical event marking a new stage in the church’s progress occurred in Europe. By 1850 the entire prophecy had been fulfilled, all within the context of European Christian history. Thereafter, according to LSM’s interpretation, Church history has been in a “holding pattern” consisting of four kinds of church, all of which originated in Europe. LSM’s paradigm views post-1850 developments of the Christian faith in Africa, Asia, Latin America and Oceania as insignificant extensions, expendable appendages of European Christianity. Recent trends call for a revised view of global Church history. Professor Mark Noll says, “The time has come for a new history of Christianity.” The problem with older histories is that62 “they locate the center of Christian history in the West—Europe and North America—with the global majority [of Christians] relegated to the periphery. But the field has changed; world Christianity has taken on a new shape.” Another scholar says “We must move beyond…the assumption that what happened in the course of Western Christendom is universally normative for Christian history.”63 Another emphasizes the pitfalls of disregarding the non-Western world. Prof. Dana Robert says,64 “Since the Reformation we have become used to the assumption that Christianity exists in three more or less permanent modes: Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox. These categories, however, reflect events in Western history; in the West they have a significance that they cannot have in the non-Western world.” He rejects this parochial view, asserting65 “There is no way in which African and Asian church history can be…treated as appendages to Western church history.” Given the large (and growing) importance of the Church in these areas,66 “the days are gone when the history of Christianity could be taught as the development of Western doctrine and institutions. [We are] in the middle of a large-scale transformation in the nature of Christianity,” Robert declares. A euro-centric focus may have been appropriate at the time of the Reformation, around the year 1500, when, “Europe…was essentially Christian and Christianity was essentially European.”67 However, 500-years later, Europe’s role in global Christianity is rapidly declining. Phillip Jenkins observes that68 “European levels of church attendance fall far short of American, and the situation is deteriorating fast.” With Europe rapidly becoming a “post-Christian society” and African, Asian and Latin American expressions of the Christian faith growing rapidly, a euro-centric interpretation of Christian history, such as LSM’s, becomes increasingly irrelevant to the present profile of the global Christian Church. In 1850 it appeared that Church history—essentially European Christian history—matched the prophetic profile in Revelation 2 and 3. 150-years later that view appears distinctly parochial and euro-centric. We ought to ask—was that correspondence merely a passing coincidence? CONCLUSION For centuries Bible students have researched current events for signs of the times matching Daniel’s 70 weeks and 1260 days, plus John’s apocalyptic agenda. Protestant reformers were sure the Pope was the Beast (Antichrist) and the Catholic Church was Babylon. In 1701 Robert Fleming, Jr. (c. 1660-1716)69 predicted the French Monarchy’s overthrow “at least before 1794” and, soon after, Revelation’s “5th bowl” would be poured on the seat of the Beast (Rome). The French Revolution occurred “on schedule.” Soon after, Napoleon expelled the Pope from Rome. Strikingly, this latter event occurred in 1798, precisely 1260 years after Rome and the Pope were liberated from the barbarians (A.D 538). The number 1260 was deemed highly significant.70 Contemporaries felt Bible prophecies are being fulfilled before their eyes! The end was near! Subsequent events showed the correspondence was coincidental, a fleeting mirage. When Andrew Miller penned his Church History (circa. 1873) it appeared Christian history concurred with Revelation’s seven churches. Events among the Plymouth Brethren provided the final puzzle pieces —Philadelphia and Laodicea had been fulfilled prophetically. History matched prophecy. This became the authoritative Brethren teaching concerning the historical course of the Church. Along with many other interpretations (e.g., OT types) it was adopted by the Local Church. This prophetic doctrine has remained unchanged for 150 years. But time has not stood still; major developments in the world and the Christian Church have left this doctrine stranded by the ebbing tide of events. 65-years ago, when W. Nee wrote, it wasn’t clear; today it is—this interpretation doesn’t fit the data. Close examination raises more questions. For example, LSM’s prophetic interpretation maintains that Smyrna typifies the “suffering church” under the Roman Empire’s persecution until A.D. 300. But is the suffering church restricted to that one era? In fact the twentieth century has seen the greatest number of Christian martyrs. One researcher says,71 “We estimate that over the entire history of Christianity, 70M Christians have been killed for their faith. Over half of these were in the twentieth century alone.” 60% of all martyrdoms occurred since 1900. More than 40M Christians died for their faith in the 20th century—20 M. in the USSR 1920-80 alone, including 1 million Pentecostals.72 The “Soviet Empire” killed far more believers than the Roman Empire.73 Consider also the many martyrs in China (1900, 1950-70), Africa (e.g., Kenya 1950s, Uganda 1970s, Sudan) and the on-going persecution of believers in North Korea and Islamic countries.74 Surely believers in these countries also experienced “Smyrna--the suffering church” during those periods! This logic suggests we abandon LSM’s prophetic-historical interpretation75 and adopt the more eclectic view that characteristics from each of Revelation’s seven churches may be replicated among believers around the globe in any era. Scripture contains prophecies concerning the nations (e.g., Daniel) and the Jews (e.g., Matt. 24);76 where is its prophecy concerning the church? If Revelation 2-3 is not a prophecy concerning the course of the church during the Age of Grace, where is the Bible’s prophecy concerning the church?77 The difficulty with this question is that it assumes the church must have a prophecy, just like the nations and Israel. Yet, the church’s nature is heavenly, while the nations and Israel are earthly. Doesn’t Scriptures’ greatest prophecy—“I will build My church…” (Matt. 16:18)—apply to the church? Isn’t that prophecy sufficient? Nigel Tomes, Toronto, Canada, July, 2010. ------------------------------------------------------- NOTES Thanks are extended to those who commented on earlier drafts of this piece. As usual the author alone is responsible for the contents of this piece. The views expressed here are solely the author’s and should not be attributed to any believers, elders, co-workers or churches with whom/which he is associated. I apologize for inflicting 70+ footnotes upon the reader. However, I have been charged (with reference to previous papers) with taking quotes out of context. The notes & references allow the objective reader to evaluate for him/herself. 1. Witness Lee’s biography of Watchman Nee indicates the importance of John Nelson Darby’s writings in the development of W. Nee’s views of Scripture--“He also collected the writings of the Brethren teachers, such as John Nelson Darby, William Kelly, and C. H. Mackintosh.” [W. Lee, “W. Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation,” p. 25] “Light concerning the church was received from the writings of John Nelson Darby and other Brethren teachers.” [W. Lee, “W. Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation,” p. 27] and “Watchman Nee especially received help in expounding the Bible and on many other truths, in general, from the writings of Darby and the Brethren.” [W. Lee, “W. Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation,” p. 27] Witness Lee, himself testified, “I was led to attend the Brethren Assembly (the Benjamin Newton branch) in [his home town]…From the year I was saved, I continuously attended their meetings for seven years.” [W. Lee, “W. Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation,” p. 284] W. Lee, “Ten Lines in the Bible,” chapter 8, “The Line of Dispensations” presents the standard Plymouth Brethren interpretation on dispensations as historical eras of God’s dealing with mankind. See W. Lee’s “The Prophecy of the Four 'Sevens' in the Bible,” (1990) for his exposition of the “last days”—according to the last 7 years of Daniel’s 70 weeks, & the 7 seals, 7 trumpets & 7 bowls of John’s Apocalypse--which closely follows standard Plymouth Brethren expositions. In 1985 W. Lee said, “Today there are at least 4 different theologies—secular theology, reformed theology, fundamental theology and Brethren theology. Among these, the Brethren theology is the best.” He mentions 6 “good points” about Brethren theology, including “thirdly, they opened up the prophecies.” [W. Lee, Fellowship concerning the Lord’s up-to-date Move, Elders’ training Book 5, pp. 104-5] W. Lee also said, “We honor and regard Brethren theology as the top theology...our teaching is based upon and constituted with the Brethren theology.” [W. Lee, Fellowship concerning the Lord’s up-to-date Move, Elders’ Training Book 5, p. 106] 2. These views contrast with those who teach there will be no literal millennial kingdom on earth (the amillennial view) and those who teach that Christ’s return occurs after the millennial kingdom (post-millennial view). The Brethren espoused a pre-millennial view—that Christ would return prior to the millennium. Darby taught the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church; Benjamin W. Newton taught the post-tribulation rapture. 3. Among the early Brethren a variety of views were held concerning pre- and post-tribulation rapture, plus partial rapture. Robert C. Chapman held that there would be multiple raptures, consistent with the partial rapture of the church. His coworker, Hake held a different view. Roy Coad says concerning George Muller, “We know from an explicit statement of his own in 1879 that Müller did not adopt the Secret Rapture viewpoint.” [F. Roy Coad, “Prophetic Developments with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.” C.B.R.F. Occasional Paper Number 2(Pinner, Middlesex, 1966) p. 22.]Multiple raptures—an overcoming minority (“firstfruits”) & majority (“harvest”)—were taught by D. M. Panton; this writer appears to be a major influence on W. Nee and W. Lee. 4. “Left Behind: A Novel of the Earth's Last Days” was a best-selling novel by Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins that starts the Left Behind series. This book and others in the series give narrative form to a specific eschatological reading of Revelation. It embodies J. N. Darby’s view on believers’ rapture, dispensationalism and pre-millennialism. Tim LaHaye agrees with the prophetic-historical view that the 7 churches portray 7 periods of church history. He says, In my commentary on the Book of Revelation, I pointed out that the seven churches of Asia were selected out of the hundreds of young churches at that time because they were types of the seven church ages that would exist from the first century to the present. (No Fear of the Storm, p. 41) 5. The early 1990s saw the development of a revised form of dispensational theology called “progressive dispensationalism.” Scholars-- Craig A. Blaising, Darrell L. Bock, and Robert L. Saucy—are considered the primary spokespersons for progressive dispensationalism. In his book, Darby, Dualism, and the Decline of Dispensationalism, Ronald Henzel says, “Some of the very academic institutions founded to promote Dispensationalism have moved away from unqualified allegiance to that hermeneutical and eschatological system. Over the objections of traditional Dispensationalists, many scholars have embraced a new variety known as Progressive Dispensationalism, while others have defected to Covenant Theology.” [Ronald M. Henzel, “Darby, Dualism, and the Decline of Dispensationalism”(2003)] 6. An example of the continued teaching of Brethren eschatology within LSM’s Local Churches would be the message of LSM’s Senior Editor, Ed Marks, one of the “blended coworkers” on “The Church in Pergamos Prefiguring the Church that entered into a Marriage Union with the World…” in LSM’s The Ministry magazine, Vol. 8, No. 6 (June 2004) pp. 35-36. 7. We refer to the saying circulated within ‘LSM circles’ to the effect that “God’s written Word was canonized in AD 397 [at the Council of Carthage], the ‘interpreted word’ was canonized in 1997.” To “canonize” means “to consider or treat as sacrosanct or holy, to sanction or approve authoritatively.” [Dictionary.com] In this context, the “interpreted word” refers to W. Lee’s exposition embodied in the Recovery Version footnotes. The fact that W. Lee passed away in 1997 makes that year significant within ‘LSM circles.’ W. Lee identified LSM’s Recovery Version of the Bible as “Watchman Nee’s interpretation.” He states, “Watchman Nee spent much time to study and collect all the proper, major interpretations of the Bible…I was laboring closely with him for 18 years, he told me what he had collected. Thus, today our interpretation of the Bible is according to the proper interpretations throughout the past 19 centuries…The Recovery Version actually is not my version because my understanding of the Bible depends absolutely on Watchman Nee’s interpretation. Furthermore, Brother Nee’s interpretation depended upon the proper interpretations of all the saints in the past 19 centuries.” [W. Lee, The Ten Critical ‘Ones’ for the Building Up of the Body of Christ Chap. 1] This interpretation is embodied in the Recovery Version’s extensive footnotes. LSM’s “senior editor” contends that these footnotes are “all-inclusive.” Ron Kangas is on record saying, “The footnotes in the Recovery Version of the Holy Bible are all-inclusive. The truth, the life, the light, the revelation, and the vision in these notes are inherited…Every positive element of vision in the Scriptures is included…” [RK, The Ministry, vol. 9, No. 8, Sept. 2005, p. 17] LSM’s “blended brothers” declare, “We need to come back to God by coming back to His written Word and His interpreted word.” [EM, The Ministry, Vol.9, No. 1 (Jan. 2005) p. 259] In this context, God’s “written Word” means the text of Scripture; God’s “interpreted word” means the exposition contained in LSM’s Recovery Version footnotes. 8. For example the call for overcomers in each of the seven churches is surely a principle relevant in every era of the Church. Hence W. Nee writes, “Although the Lord desires that the entire Church would obey, He fully realizes that only certain individuals will overcome and will obey. There is no such thing as the whole group turning and repenting. For this reason He promises great rewards to those overcoming individuals.” [W. Nee, “Meditations on Revelation,” The Christian (2), Collected Works of W. Nee, vol. 4, p. 275] W. Nee draws the lesson that “There is no such thing as the whole group turning and repenting;” there is no such thing as an “overcoming church,” only overcoming individual believers. Contrast this with the call of LSM President, Benson Phillips for overcoming churches; he said, “All the churches in the Lord’s recovery must become overcoming churches today. We must overcome individually, but we also must overcome as the church.” [BP., The Ministry magazine, vol. 9, No. 8, Sept. 2005, p. 70], 9. Thus W. Nee writes, “When we read the seven epistles, we also must regard them as prophecy. However, when we read them today, they have already become history.” [W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 14] Later he says, “Only Revelation 2 and 3…show us the prophecy of the church…and the fulfillment given by history. We thank God that the prophecies have already been fulfilled.” [W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 91] 10. Notice that the Outline of Revelation in LSM’s Recovery Version appears to suggest that the prophetic section starts with chapter 4. Based upon Rev. 1:19 the Recovery Version divides the Apocalypse into five major sections: [1.] Introduction 1:1-8; [2] “The things which you have seen” 1:9-20; [3] “The things which are” 2:1-3:22; [4] “The things which are about to take place [after these things]” 4:1-22:5; [5] Conclusion 22:6-21. So, the epistles to the seven churches are in the section entitled: “The things which are [existing]” and not the prophetic section, “The things which are about to take place [after these things]” 4:1-22:5. Nevertheless the Recovery Version notes indicate that the 7 epistles will be interpreted prophetically. An early example of expositors rejecting the prophetic interpretation of Rev. 2 & 3 is Archbishop Trench of Dublin (1864-1884) rejected the prophetic-historical interpretation of Revelation’s seven epistles. He discounted it, saying, “The whole thing was a subjective fancy of men’s minds, not an objective truth of God’s Word” (Trench, Epistles to the Seven Churches, p. 301) “The multitude of…books, which have been written, and still are being written, in support of this scheme of interpretation, must remain a singular monument of wasted ingenuity and misapplied toil; of the disappointment which must result from a futile looking into Scripture for that which is not to be found there… ” (p. 312). 11. This statement does not slight either W. Nee or W. Nee; it is merely recognizes the source of this teaching. The present author was born & raised among the “Open Plymouth Brethren.” He heard this teaching concerning the 7 churches typifying the course of Church history 50 years ago while among the Brethren. 12. Andrew Miller’s Church History, (1873, pp 4-6) Pickering & Inglis (1963, one-volume edition). “The Brethren Writers’ Hall of Fame” tells us that Andrew Miller (1810-1883)was the “author of ‘Miller's Church History.’ A businessman, he was converted to the plain ways of the [Exclusive] Brethren while a voluntary pastor, and took his church with him! [He] Supported and financed [publication of] the ‘Notes’ of C. H. McIntosh on the Pentateuch.” 13. Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921), Scofield’s Reference Bible (1909, 1917). “The Brethren Writers’ Hall of Fame” tells us “C. I. Scofield (1843 - 1921) [was] not of the Brethren, but his Reference Bible gave a new popularity to the Dispensational teaching [of Darby].” Scofield “believed the letters to the seven churches in the book of Revelation were symbolic of seven periods of the Church Age. He said the messages to the churches had a fourfold purpose. The fourth purpose is “prophetic, as disclosing seven phases of the spiritual history of the church from, say, A.D. 96 to the end.” (The First Scofield Study Bible, p. 1331). He explained what each church represented. Watchman Nee helped translate Scofield’s Bible Correspondence Course into Chinese. [W. Lee, “W. Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation,” p. 201] 14. W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, The Collected Works of W. Nee, Vol. 47. The editor’s preface indicates “The Orthodoxy of the Church is based on a Bible study conducted by W. Nee during the period between 1942 and 1948.” W. Lee’s “Preface to the English Edition” designates these chapters as “messages given and published in 1945.” W. Nee takes the epistles to the 7 churches as prophetic. He states, “Revelation…is a book of prophecy…even the seven epistles are prophetic.” A little later he says, “These seven churches are representative of all other churches…the history of the seven churches constitutes the complete history of the church.” [W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 10] 15. W. Lee, Life-study of Revelation, Message One, p. 1 16. W. Lee, Life-study of Revelation, Message 14, p. 169 17. So W. Nee says “the outward appearance of the church is extremely confusing. The church in her appearance has many manifestations in history…” [W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 93] A little later he says, “the confusion on earth does not affect the spiritual reality. God’s spiritual reality still remains. But the church in her outward appearance, at least, is confused. The Roman Catholic Church claims that it is the Body of Christ.” [W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 94] LSM’s interpretation deals with the outward appearance, e.g. The Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant denominations etc. 18. W. Lee, Rev. 2:1, RcV., note 1 19. W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 93 20. W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 94. The quote in context reads: —“the last four continue their days on the earth together. They did not begin at the same time, but they end at the same time.” 21. W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 95. Only the third church, Philadelphia—“the brothers who love one another”—is left unidentified by W. Nee. Later he adds, “whether or not we are Philadelphia remains a question…Whoever claims to be Philadelphia no longer appears as Philadelphia.” [W. Nee, Orthodoxy, p. 96.] 22. W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 94. A little later, he adds, “Today [1945] there are four different kinds of churches. In all four there are people who are saved—some are better and some are worse. God has put us in a time where there are four ways from which we can choose.” [W. Nee, Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 94, emphasis added.] 23. Notice that in the context of W. Nee & W. Lee’s discussion, “Protestant” does not mean “non-Catholic.” It refers more narrowly to the Protestant-Reformed churches which emerged from the 16th century Reformation. W. Lee illustrates this understanding when he says: “The reformed church…has denied the Lord’s name by denominating herself with many other names, such as Lutheran, Wesleyan, Anglican, Presbyterian, and Baptist…to denominate the church…is spiritual fornication.” [W. Lee, Life-study of Revelation, message, 15, p. 187] Strictly speaking this definition of “Protestant” does not include the classical Pentecostal churches (e.g. “Assemblies of God”) which began in the late 1800s & early 1900s. Obviously “Protestant” does not include the Eastern Orthodox churches (e.g. Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox) which slit from the western Roman Catholic Church around 1000 AD. 24. W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 82. 25. W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 94. 26. W. Lee, Rev. 2:1, RcV., note 1 27. W. Lee, Life-study of Revelation, message 15, p. 191 28. W. Lee, Life-study of Revelation, message 16, p. 197 29. Note that the “substitution” of the “Lord’s present recovery” for the Brethren is nowhere predicted by the Church-historical prophecy of Revelation 2 & 3. It seems to be a contrived method of “reading oneself into Bible prophecy.” 30. LSM-adherents feel that they are fulfilling W. Lee’s exhortation: “Satan's chaos, which has resulted in three accumulations, which are three ‘isms’: Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism….We have to be the overcomers who conquer everything of Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism. In the eyes of the Lord, these three ‘isms’ are more evil than sin, than the world, and than our self. Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism should be the first category of things that you and I have to conquer. …The Lord charges us in these epistles to conquer, to overcome, Judaism, Catholicism, and Protestantism.” [W. Lee, The Satanic Chaos in the Old Creation and the Divine Economy for the New Creation, chp. 4 (Messages given by W. Lee in Irving, Texas, May 23-25, 1992), emphasis added] Along the same lines, W. Lee said, “Surely we should not remain in anything of Judaism, Catholicism, or Protestantism. If we are going to be overcoming believers, we have to overcome, to conquer, these three kinds of ‘isms’.” [W. Lee, The Satanic Chaos in the Old Creation and the Divine Economy for the New Creation, chp. 4] 31. Notes on the Table: · Aggregate data from Todd M. Johnson, Peter F. Crossing & Bobby Jangsun Ryu, Looking Forward: An Overview of World Evangelism, 2005-2025 (2004) p. 8. Total 2,233M is for “Affiliated Christians;” (2005) “Doubly affiliated” are counted twice. · Figures for LSM’s Local Churches; In Nov. 2003 LSM’s President Benson Phillips declared, that there were, “300,000 saints in over 3,000 churches outside mainland China…Inside mainland China there are conservatively, 850,000 saints in the Lord’s recovery and multitudes of churches.” [Benson Phillips, The Ministry magazine, Vol. 8, No 3, (March 2004) p. 91]” · Figures for “Plymouth Brethren” is “Christian Brethren” from World Christian Database (2005) includes both “Open Brethren” & “Exclusive (Closed) Brethren.” Largest concentrations (2005): India: 500,000; Angola: 400,000; Chad: 350,000. Figures for UK: “Christian Brethren (Open)”: 122,000; “Christian Brethren (Exclusive, Closed)” 48,900. 32. Phillip Jenkins, The Next Christianity, The Atlantic Monthly, Oct., 2002 33. Todd M. Johnson,“3 Waves of Christian Renewal: A 100-Year Snapshot,” International Bulletin of Missionary Research, [IBMR] Vol. 31, No. 2, April 2006 34. Todd M. Johnson,“Three Waves of Christian Renewal: A 100-Year Snapshot,” IBMR, Vol. 31, No. 2, April 2006. The authors’ 2025 projection of 800M: “Status of Global Mission” IBMR, vol. 34, No. 1 (Jan, 2010) p. 36 35. Allan Anderson, The Globalization of Pentecostalism in the Twentieth Century, IBMR, vol. 31, No. 1, Jan. 2007 36. On more than one occasion W. Lee recounted the following incident “In my home town of Chefoo, [China] not too far from our hall was another hall where a group of Pentecostals met. Once their leader came to me trying to convince me to take up the Pentecostal way. I said to him. ‘Brother, I surely know what your intention is in coming here. Since you have been in your way for years, how many do you have meeting with you?’ When he told me that they were under one hundred, I replied, ‘I am not in your way, but among us are close to one thousand. Do you have the power or do I have the power?’” [W. Lee, Fellowship Concerning the Lord's Up-to-Date Move, Elders' Training, Book 5, chapter 1, p. 19, emphasis added] W. Lee also appealed to numbers as vindication of his work. For example, he is on record saying, “Since I left mainland China in 1949, about three hundred eighty churches have been raised up on five continents through this ministry…What the Lord has done since 1949 is a strong evidence that what God needs on earth today is the practical expression of the mystical Body of Christ.” [W. Lee, Life-study of 1 Cor., pp. 525-6] More to the point is the fact that LSM’s historical-prophetic interpretation purports to describe the future course of the Christian Church as it is manifested upon earth until the end of the church age. That prophetic description should include features like the numerical rise of Pentecostalism & Independent churches. 37. “Seven Letters to Seven Churches” in “The Midnight Cry” (2002, 2004) p. 33. The document itself is anonymous; the pdf “document properties” indicate the author is “Ted Edelinski.” The author acknowledges “The basic premise is certainly not original. The historical approach to interpreting the letters to the seven churches in Revelation 2 and 3 can be found in the notes on those chapters in the Scofield Reference Bible. The same approach is taken in Watchman Nee’s The Orthodoxy of the Church (Living Stream Ministry, publisher), although Brother Nee lived in a time when the final church period was a little more difficult to anticipate than it is today.” This writer does not agree with this designation. Our point is that at least the “Midnight Cry” recognizes the omission of the 20th century Pentecostal/Charismatic movement within the Brethren’s usual prophetic scheme. 38. W. Nee had a positive assessment of Azusa St. and the “latter rain.” He said, “At the same time that this [Welsh] revival was going on, another new work began in Los Angeles in the United States. From 1908 to 1909, a number of black believers on Azusa Street experienced the baptism of the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues… These individuals saw that the prophecy of Joel 2 was only partially fulfilled at the time of the apostles and that the day of the latter rain must come before the complete fulfillment occurs. Spiritually speaking, ‘the day of the latter rain’ refers to today.” [W. Nee, “What Are We?,” Collected Works of W. Nee, vol. 11, p. 855, emphasis added] 39. “A Vast Movement: Contemporary post-denominationalism is a movement sweeping throughout the churches worldwide. It is a vast, scattered movement of many distinct and separate…independencies, reformations, and renewals. Today it includes over 20,000 movements, networks, or new denominations with 394 million church members.” [David B. Barrett et al, Annual Statistical Table…: 2001, IBMR, vol. 25, No. 1, Jan., 2001] 40. David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, and Peter F. Crossing Missiometrics 2008: Reality Checks… Table B. 2008:50 new facts and figures about…global Christianity, IBMR, Vol. 32, No. 1, Jan, 2008 41. The World Christian Database [WCD] includes the “Assembly Hall churches” (“Little Flock” churches of W. Nee) among the “House Church” movement. The table below presents WCD’s estimates of congregations and membership for China’s major “house church networks” in 2005. Some are identified by location (province or city), others by emphasis (e.g. “Born Again Movement.”) The “Little Flock” local churches associated with W. Nee are designated as “Assembly Hall Churches.” CHINA’S HOUSE CHURCH NETWORKS estimates for 2005 Name No. Congregations No. Members Born Again Movement 275,000 24.5 Millions Anhui 120,000 12.0 M. Fangcheng 120,000 12.0 M. Assembly Hall Churches 120,000 10.0 M. Nanyang 65,000 6.0 M. Tanghe 85,000 4.5 M. Wenzhou 23,000 2.3 M. TOTAL All Networks 843,000 68.3 M. 42. According to the World Christian [Religions] Database [WCD] in 2005 there were 100.6M Christians in mainland China. Of these, 13.7 M were Catholic and 22 M. Protestant. The government-approved “Three-self Patriotic Movement” Church claimed a membership of 21 M. Together these constitute about 50M. [This eliminates double-counting—there is a government-approved “patriotic” branch of the Catholic Church in China, plus some Christians meet with both government-approved and unofficial “house churches.”] The WCD gives the number 73M for “Independents.” Deducting the official “Three-self Patriotic Movement” Church” figure of 21M yields 52M. 43. A. H. Anderson, “Types & Butterflies: African Initiated Churches & European Typologies ” IMRB, 25:3, July 2001 44. Allan H. Anderson, “Types and Butterflies: African Initiated Churches…” IMRB, 25:3, July 2001 45. Bakht Singh (1902–2000) established local assemblies in India, Pakistan & elsewhere on the principle of “one church, one city.” They are collectively known as the “Indigenous Churches of India.” [Roger E. Hedlund, Indian Expressions of Indigenous Christianity, Studies in World Christianity, vol. 10, No. 2 (October, 2004) p. 192]. The WCD reports that in 2005 these “Indigenous Churches of India” had 260,000 members in India, 23,000 in Pakistan, 10,000 in Nepal, plus additional members in Bhutan, Bahrain & Kuwait. 46. Coworkers in the Lord’s recovery, “Beliefs & Practices of the local churches” (1976) 47. These figures are from David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, and Peter F. Crossing, Christian World Communions: Five Overviews of Global Christianity, AD 1800–2025, IBMR, Vol. 33, No. 1, January 2009. The Percentages given are “Independents” (line 32) as % of “Church members”(line 25) For unspecified reasons the 2010 up-date the last figure—420M--has been revised downwards to 370M. [David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, et. al., “Status of Global Mission, 2010…” IBMR, Vol. 34, No. 1 (Jan. 2010), p. 36] Nevertheless the central point remains unaffected—the “independent” category is large and constitutes the fastest growing “mega-block” at 2.42% p.a. vs. 1.35 for Christians of all kinds. [IBMR, Vol. 34, No. 1 (Jan. 2010), p. 36] 48. Professor Robert says, “Non-Western historians are cautioning against blanket use of the word ‘Pentecostal’ to describe indigenous Christianity.” Concerning African Initiated Churches, African Christian scholars argue “vigorously against the label of Pentecostalism being plastered onto indigenous churches. Not only have these churches been founded by African prophets, but they have recruited their members largely from the traditional population, not from so-called mission churches. Although they emphasize the Holy Spirit, the AICs deal with issues arising from African culture, not from Western Pentecostalism.” [Dana Robert, Shifting Southward: Global Christianity since 1945, IBMR, April 2000] 49. See the figures quoted in note 41 above. 50. The quote is from “DL” (Dan Leslie?), The Ministry magazine, Vol. 8, No. 2 (February, 2004) pp. 153-4, Note however, that since this is an outline point and section heading in LSM’s The Ministry magazine, according to LSM protocol, it is a direct quotation from Witness Lee’s own published message. 51. In this context LSM’s “blended brother” asserts that “In the Lord’s recovery we see and experience that we are joined to the Lord in our spirit.” [“DL,” The Ministry magazine, Vol. 8, No. 2 (February, 2004) p. 153] 52. IBMR Editor, Global Christianity 2000: Expansion, Shift, and Conundrum, IBMR, Vol. 24, No 2, April 2000 53. Todd M. Johnson, David B. Barrett, and Peter F. Crossing Christianity 2010: A View from the New Atlas of Global Christianity, IBMR Vol. 34, No. 1, Jan. 2010 54. Todd Johnson, World Christian Trends, Update 2007, August 2007 55. A. F. Walls, Eusebius Tries Again, IBMR, Vol. 24, No. 3, July 2000 56. Todd M. Johnson, Peter F. Crossing & Bobby Jangsun Ryu, “Looking Forward: An Overview of World Evangelism, 2005-2025” (2004) p. 8 57. A. F. Walls, Eusebius Tries Again, IBMR, Vol. 24, No. 3, July 2000 58. Dana Robert, Shifting Southward: Global Christianity since 1945, IBMR, April 2000 59. Phillip Jenkins, The Next Christianity, The Atlantic Monthly, Oct., 2002 60. Thomas D. Ross points out that the “seven stages of the Church’s progress” does not fit the history of the Eastern Church. He says, “Eastern Orthodox [Church] has even less to do with the prophetic theory; the events that are said to be represented generally happened in the West and had little effect on its sphere of dominance. No claim for representation of important turns of events in Eastern Catholicism, such as suppression under Communism and modern resurgence in post-cold war Russia, appears.” [Thomas D. Ross, The Historical Ages Interpretation of the Churches of Revelation Two and Three, p. 6] 61. One would expect a prophetic scheme presenting “the history of the church from the first century to the present” to predict the rise and expansion of Islam, beginning from the 7th century. As of 2010 the Muslim faith has 1,544M adherents globally (22.4% of the world’s population). In terms of world religions, it is second only to the Christian faith, with 2,292M adherents (33.2% of world pop.). Moreover Islam is growing at a faster rate than Christianity (1.82% versus 1.35%). By 2025 Islam is predicted to reach 24.5% of global population. However, nowhere in the Plymouth Brethren’s or LSM’s historical-prophetic interpretation is the rise of Islam identified. This omission again highlights the focus on Christianity’s history in Western Europe. 62. Mark A. Noll, The New Shape of World Christianity (2009). The quote is from inside the dust-cover. Prof. Noll’s in the book’s opening sentence says, “The new world situation…demands a new history of Christianity.” (p. 9) He continues by saying the older histories of Christianity “presume a core Christian narrative dominated by events, personalities…in Europe and North America—and then surrounded by a fringe…scattered throughout the globe.” [Mark A. Noll, The New Shape of World Christianity p. 9, emphasis added] The point is that the changing shape of the global Christian faith means that European historical events and people that were considered the core of the Christian narrative, become less crucial (and “peripheral” non-western events & people become more crucial) in the light of more recent trends and developments. However, a God-inspired prophecy would foretell the events according to their actual importance; it would not need revision (or a revised interpretation) in the light of subsequent developments! 63. Wilbert R. Shenk, “Toward a Global Church History” IBMR, Vol. 50, No. 2, April 1996. The quote in context reads: ”We must move beyond the conventional framework, which is governed by the assumption that what happened in the course of Western Christendom is universally normative for Christian history.” 64. Dana Robert, Shifting Southward: Global Christianity since 1945, IBMR, April 2000 65. Dana Robert, Shifting Southward: Global Christianity since 1945, IBMR, April 2000 66. Philip Jenkins, Godless Europe? IBMR, Vol. 31, No. 3, July, 2007 67. Philip Jenkins, Godless Europe? IBMR, Vol. 31, No. 3, July, 2007 68. Philip Jenkins, Godless Europe? IBMR, Vol. 31, No. 3, July, 2007. The extended quote reads: “European levels of church attendance fall far short of American, and the situation is deteriorating fast. Around 40 percent of Americans report visiting a place of worship weekly, compared with less than 20 percent in most of Europe. According to some estimates, the British attendance figure is 15 percent, with 12 percent in Germany, and Scandinavia below 5 percent.” 69. For details on this case of “prophetic fulfillment” and others, see F. Roy Coad, “Prophetic Developments with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.” C.B.R.F. Occasional Paper Number 2 (Pinner, Middlesex, 1966) p. 13. Coad describes the response this “prophetic fulfillment.”“Historicism had in fact reached its zenith. Its remarkable interpretations appeared at last to be coming true. For centuries men had wrestled with those obscure prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation: and now at last they were being fulfilled before their eyes. Interpretation gave way to a flood of excited speculation. If these dates had proved correct, so would others… The end days were upon them and in a few decades the culmination of all things would be seen.”[F. Roy Coad, “Prophetic Developments...” C.B.R.F. Occasional Paper Number 2(Pinner, Middlesex, 1966) pp. 13-14.] 70. The number 1260 days equals 42X30 i.e. 42 months or 3.5 years the duration of the great tribulation, according to some expositors. For example, W. Lee says, “1260 days after Antichrist sets up his image, Christ will come to earth. Thus, His open coming can be calculated.” [W. Lee, Life-study of Matthew, message 62, p. 728] Also he says, “When Antichrist sets up his image, we may begin to count 1260 days until Christ descends publicly to the earth.” [W. Lee, Life-study of Matthew, message 62, p. 729]. The figure of 1260 years took on special significance by association. 71. Figures from David B. Barrett & Todd M. Johnson, “Martyrs” Lists 1-6 from “Global Top Ten Lists…” in World Christian Trends, 2001” The 1900s rank #1 in “Centuries with most martyrs” at 41M. The 200s rank as #10 with 400,000 martyrs (the 100s had less). The authors estimate there have been approx. 70M martyrs over the past 20-centuries. 60% of all Christian martyrdoms occurred since 1900, beginning with China’s “Boxer rebellion” in 1900. 72. Todd Johnson, World Christian Trends, Update 2007, August 2007, www.lausanneworldpulse.com 73. Professor Rodney Stark concludes that “The total number of Christians martyred by the Romans probably was fewer than a thousand. But their steadfastness greatly strengthened the faith of other Christians and impressed many pagans.” [Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity, p. 164, emphasis added.] Stark also states that “usually only bishops and other prominent figures were singled out. Thus for rank-and-file Christians the threat of persecution was so slight….”[Rodney Stark, The Rise of Christianity, p. 180.] 74. David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, et. al. World Christian Trends, 2001, p. 32 These authors estimate that 9M Christians have perished at the hands of Islam since it began in the 7th century (long after the end of Smyrna, the “suffering church,” in LSM’s paradigm). 75. The proposal is that we abandon LSM’s historical-prophetic interpretation of the 7 churches in Revelation 2-3. This does not mean we abandon the prophetic interpretation of Rev. chapters 4-22. This proposal is consistent with W, Lee’s Outline of Revelation which classifies chapters 2 & 3 as: “The things which are [existing at the time of writing] (Rev. 2:1-3:22) and chapters 4-22 as: “The things which are about to take place [after these things]” (Rev. 4:1-22:5). 76. W. Lee adopts the position of the Brethren’s dispensational theology—that the prophecies in Matt. 24 apply to the Jews and not to the church. He says, “Matthew 24:4-31 is a sketch of 20 centuries of Jewish history.” [W. Lee, Life-study of Matthew, message 62, p. 722, emphasis added] Also he says, “We need to remember that [Matt] 24:1-14 speaks of the things between Christ’s ascension and the end of the age. All these verses must be applied to the Jews during this period of time.” [W. Lee, Life-study of Matthew, message 62, p. 722, emphasis added] 77. W. Nee says, “In the Old Testament there are very clear prophecies concerning Judah….Well-known prophecies such as those in Daniel…are very detailed concerning the Gentiles….Where is the prophecy concerning the church? …[in] Paul there are no prophecies [of this type]….Matt 13…is not sufficiently clear…Therefore, we may say that only Revelation 2 and 3…show us the prophecy of the church.” [W. Nee, The Orthodoxy of the Church, p. 91, emphasis added] Again this statement assumes that the church requires specific prophecy on par with Scriptures’ prophecies concerning the Jews (Israel) and the nations. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last edited by Admin; 07-15-2010 at 09:57 PM. |
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07-16-2010, 08:01 AM
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Banned
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
And the internet is changing how christians interact. The internet makes possible another revolution in the BofC. Denominational boundaries become arbitrary. The potential for building up one another is overwhelming. In a sense it gets us out of the comfort zone of conformity of monopolistic ministries.
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07-16-2010, 10:32 AM
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
This is the first time I have seen anyone take on the “7 churches as prophecy of the progression of the church” idea besides to dismiss it. I found a few things in the article interesting.
First was the identification of the “recovery” as having occurred in the early to mid 1800s, resulting in Philadelphia, followed by the decline of the exclusives into Laodicea. This puts the Local Churches into the interesting position of being something other than the original “recovery” since they do not simply restore the original Brethren teachings and practices, but seek to “recover” even more. The second was that by believing that there were the 7 churches, therefore nothing remains to recover, they believed a teaching that spoke against the Local Churches since that would mean that the Brethren already brought in “recovery,” and once they had prophetically been followed by the Exclusive Brethren to be Laodicea and complete the 7, there was no position for Nee and Lee to come along and do more recovering. This means that as they believe the prophecy of the 7 churches, once all are fulfilled, there is nothing more. And they incorrectly applied that belief at a point in time that is inconsistent with that belief. If the Brethren were the “recovery,” then once some of them fell to Laodicea, it was over. This happened before the birth of Nee or Lee, therefore no place in prophecy for the Local Churches. But when Nigel begins to speak of the fact that there are more than 7 “churches” or types of church, there is a rising force within Christianity that was not considered. And the reason is that it is a pervasive collection of practices, attitudes, teachings, etc., that have infiltrated almost all aspects of Christianity. Some would argue that the rise in home groups is related. But not necessarily. I am speaking of the slow transformation of portions of Christianity that is captured within the vague term “emerging.” The thing about the Emerging Church is that there is not a single “way” or set of doctrines. But within it is found a morphing together of new and old. Of postmodern culture and ancient liturgy and ritual. Of holding more loosely to the tenets that differentiate and more strongly to those that bind. Of believing “I am right” but that you may not be wrong. Of being both missional and social; high tech and ancient; exuberantly worshipping and silently contemplating. It tends less to demark salvation as a point-in-time statement of belief in a proposition, but knows that belief is required and following is the proof. There is no “one size fits all” definition. It includes assemblies that are part of well-established denominations from Pentecostal to Baptist to Lutheran. It includes RCC and Eastern Orthodox. It includes home groups and mega-churches. This is a facet of the progression of Christianity that “7 churches in Revelation as prophecy” does not seem to take into account. In this arena, while the distinctions in groups may not disappear, the walls are. Rather than shouting at each other that “we are right and you are wrong” the ability to have real discussion returns. It is no longer about who is in and who is out, but finding the ways to live — to obey — so that the knowing of the truth that sets us free can happen. Do I think my assembly is part of this? Maybe a little. But I see the changes and rather than fleeing in terror, I am encouraged.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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07-16-2010, 10:58 AM
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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Now I'm no church history scholar, but WL's simplistic synopsis on church history, which we all could repeat in our sleep, was more about building his own legacy than anything else -- try to convince a LC old timer of that! But ... read church history yourself ... and see if you arrive at the conclusion of "the minister of the age" nonsense. If anything, Zinzendorf's Hernhut had far more similarities to Philadelphia than anything I have seen since in the so-called "recovery." When I look back at the Darby Brethren and the WL Blendren, I see gifted men fighting for prominence and position, rather than "simple brothers," all the while convincing us peons that there was no hierarchy. Hey Brother UNTOHIM, can you please post a printable PDF so I can read this article.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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07-16-2010, 01:57 PM
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Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Quote:
 Just so you know, you can also go to "Thread Tools" - The first choice there on the pull-down box is "Show Printable Version". This will maybe give you a more manageable format. The next thing, if you want to read it online, is to hold down "Control" key on your keyboard, then while holding down the Control key hit the "+" key, and this will increase the font size of the characters - you can hit the + key as many times as you want to keep increasing the font size
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αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11 |
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07-16-2010, 04:36 PM
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#6 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Quote:
 The "Printable Version" does not handle all MS features such as superscript. I do use ctl+ all the time, but I'm still old-fashioned, (emphasizing "old," and not "fashioned.") I like to read with pen and highlighter, that way I don't fall asleep. 
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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07-16-2010, 01:43 PM
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#7 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Quote:
Nigel reveals something I've been saying ever since my Hal Lindsey days, or after I realized how hopeless prophecy is as a bases of Christian life. Basically, in a nutshell : if the "experts" in eschatology can't get it right, then how do just the ordinary faithful have a prayer of getting it? Nigel, in this evaluation Lee/LC's eschatology, also reveals details of the delusion in the LC, which at bottom had its whole bases in eschatology. The Recovery, of course, was the final preparation of the bride for the return of Christ. So in essence the LC had its bases eschatology. So is there any wonder that the LC turned out to be as wrong as the Millerites in the middle of the 19th century? Here's the concern : If the LC got its eschatology wrong, and it did, then it's whole bases is wrong. Its foundation is wrong. Its bases is wrong. That makes the LC a delusion. And it goes without saying that delusions are bad fer ya. And I gotta say something about the Lee/LC interpretation of the seven churches in Asia. The premise that the seven churches were meant to explain how the future church would develop historically always struck me as contrived. And as overlaying 20-20 hindsight upon the verses, but in the end more like 20-200 hindsight. Lee and others have proven that hindsight is not always 20-20. And the concern is that anyone that buys into this premise is buying into falsehood. And since there are many that has not only bought into this premise, but have based their whole life on it, the concern is that many of our brothers and sisters are giving their whole life to a delusion. I could go on and on about this. The LC delusion is many layered, and complex. It requires a body of witnesses to detail it all. But a remark about one more thing Nigel's article reveals : That this notion of a "sense that Jesus will return any day" can't be trusted. That many thru out history has had it to no avail whatsoever, and therefore it can't be trusted. But I'm with Nigel : When it comes to prophecies, "I will build my church" is enough for me. That and the ever present presence of God is enough. That's the only reliable bases for the Christian life. And that sense can be trusted. 1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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07-16-2010, 06:56 PM
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#8 | |
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Location: DFW area
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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My conclusion is "not a thing." I don't dispute the inclusion of it as scripture, or a meaningful. But I wonder if its meaning was for a "today" that is past, or if there is a way to read it that is meaningful for today and not just for tomorrow. Until that happens, I am content to understand that it is a picture painted with words that should not be a concern to someone who is obeying. Even if any so-called rapture is at the end of the tribulation, it does not change today's life. And I don't really care whether there will or won't be real streets of gold or we will be able to travel about like on Star Trek or something like that. Again, it is irrelevant to my life today.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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07-16-2010, 08:45 PM
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#9 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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07-17-2010, 04:32 AM
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#10 | |
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Location: Georgetown, Texas
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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------ I really appreciate the article by Nigel. The teaching by Lee on Revelation was all I had ever heard. I bought it hook, line, and sinker. Some time after leaving the LC, I decided to take this simple position on the interpretation of the details of Revelation: I don't know. I don't know what it all means. Nigel's article is a further confirmation for me of another thing I also decided, which is that Lee didn't know either. He just led us to believe he did. It's a sad state of affairs in the LC today because Lee's teaching combined with the belief in his infallibility, leaves people under a deception that all is well for them if they are in the LC. Sad, because the opposite is the more likely truth. Overall, as I am reading Revelation I hear the Spirit telling me that there will be a very good end to things when they are done, and that on the way, there will be some very rough times. I also hear that I should take my walk with God seriously because one day I will stand before Him and be judged. I should also take seriously my responsibility to pray for others, because they will do likewise. My position might seem to have left me fairly uninterested in the book of Revelation, but it hasn't really because of one verse I noted, which I have decided to take literally: Blessed is he who reads and and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev. 1:3) I like being blessed, so I decided I would just read Revelation for that reason and not try to interpret it. (I don't mind hearing others interpretations, but I just kind of file them away under the "something I heard once" category.) By simply reading the words of the prophecy, I keep them in mind and I am blessed. God can do with them what He likes. The day may come when they come alive for me in some kind of present application and God may give me some understanding, but for now, I simply don't know. TJ |
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07-17-2010, 06:13 AM
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#11 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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07-17-2010, 08:05 AM
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#12 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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Eventually, I came to the conclusion that people with the entire alphabet behind their names can't come to an agreement. What can I add? Perhaps just another dogmatic point of view, being used as an excuse for division. I haven't read Nigel's article yet, but plan to do so today. But what is refreshing to me is the idea that a former LSM zealot is willing to challenge what "Brother Nee said," or what "Brother Lee said." I can remember just resting in whatever Lee said, and feeling confident that it could never be called into question. It feels so good to be free to do critical thinking, and actually follow what the Lord is leading from within. Since leaving LSM as my only resource, I have had so many "ah ha" moments while reading others' writings that exposed the error of Lee and Nee. You just sort of sit back in your chair and go, "Man, where was my head? Why couldn't I see that before?" The word "veil" comes to mind. Roger |
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07-17-2010, 12:38 PM
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#13 | |
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Location: in Spirit & in Truth
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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Blessed (happy, to be envied) is the man who reads aloud [in the assemblies] the word of this prophecy; and blessed (happy, to be envied) are those who hear [it read] and who keep themselves true to the things which are written in it [heeding them and laying them to heart], for the time [for them to be fulfilled] is near. I also want them CROWNS: The Crown of Righteousness, the Crown of Glory, the Incorruptible Crown, the Crown of Rejoicing and the Crown of Life ! But I want all my brothers & sisters in Christ to also be blessed and be counted worthy of the crowns. Now we ARE going to get the crowns because CROWNS are worn by KINGS and WE are kings and priests unto the Most High God. We are ROYALTY. A Royal PRIESTHOOD. Jesus is the KING of kings. All Glory, Praise and HONOR with Blessings and Thanksgiving belong to HIM. Scripture references: 1 Peter 2:9 Revelation 1:6 Revelation 5:10 1 Timothy 4:8- Crown of Righteousness 1 Peter 5:4 -Crown of Glory 1 Corinthians 9:25-Incorruptible Crown 1 Thessalonians 2:19- Crown of Rejoicing James 1:2-Crown of Life
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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07-18-2010, 06:44 PM
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#14 |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Thank you Nigel!
Yet another interpretation of the Word from Lee hits the dust...How many more do we have lurking in our subconscious? Dig them out Lord and replace them with your pure uninterpreted Word! 'Be Diligent to present yourselves approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth'.[2 Tim 2:15] |
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07-20-2010, 08:11 AM
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#15 |
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Location: USA
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
It's funny how dogma withers in the light of plain facts.
Like many of Lee's assertions, his eschatology is dependent on accepting his premises and ignoring troublesome facts that get in the way of wholesale acceptance. It's pretty clear that the 7 churches represent stages of imperfection, but whether they represent prophecy is speculative, especially in the light of the fact that the last 100+ years don't fit into the pattern, as Tomes has pointed out so well. From this article they seem to be simply major patterns that churches or movement can fall into. One thing is clear from Tomes articles. He is a scholar, and Lee wasn't. Thank God someone has had the courage to answer Lee's errors in a scholarly way. |
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07-20-2010, 11:55 AM
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#16 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Quote:
In this article by Nigel, he is not only re-examining the teachings of the Blendeds or those of WL, but ... he is addressing those of WN himself. Imagine how this will incite the fury of all LSM zealots? Besides the ground of oneness doctrine, equating the Recovery with the church in Philadelphia is sacrosanct. Wait till BP, DT and RK talk about Nigel at the next ITERO. WN's Orthodoxy of the Church is still a great book, but let's not doubt for a minute that it elevated the Recovery above the status of the early, apostolic church. They may be Ephesus, which was pretty good, but WE were Philadelphia. They had lost their first love, but the Lord had nothing but praise for us. We had "subsumed" every positive characteristic of God's economy throughout all of church history. We had reached the pinnacle. We were the bride of Christ. We would bring the Lord back. He had waited for 2,000 years and now He finally had us! Perhaps it was this continual diet of interpretive hyperbole which facilitated our rapid demise. We were the best. We had ditched those 'degraded" denominations. Now we just need some "solid" scriptural teachings to "prove it." How about "one church, one city?" How about being "recovered" as "god-men" by the one and only one "minister of the age," who is now our "Oracle," the current "acting God?" How about all church history proving that we were prophesied by Philadelphia. John "saw us" from the isle of Patmos. There we were -- a golden, shining lampstand. Some of these teachings were "somewhat" in the Bible weren't they? After hearing them repeatedly, and teaching them to others, we all got convinced that the whole message was in the scripture. Were we not built on the solid Rock? Didn't every point of WL pass thru the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ? That's what I was told, and I believed it all. I liked being special to God, and if there's only a few thousand of us around, that makes me all the more special. Right? Beware of the leaven of the LSM.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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07-20-2010, 02:43 PM
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Location: in Spirit & in Truth
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
[QUOTE=Ohio;8028]
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However, if you google the 7 churches of Revelation, there is a LOT of info on them that did not come from Nee & Lee. Clarence Larkin also examins the churches in great detail exposing the Roman church but not in the same 'light' that Lee did. As you pointed out Ohio, Lee, imho, ( more than Nee ) elevated the Recovery. THAT IN PART, is causing the LC to come crashing down like Humpty Dumpty who sat on the wall. He had a great fall and all the kings soldiers and all the kings men could not put Humpty Dumpty together again. There are other factors that is bringing down the LC. Quote:
Quote:
Aww..Utiopia right ? YES I KNOW...I'm quite the idealistic, eternal optimistic person. So stone me. I recently heard someone outside the LC, who has never been in it say something like this: 'most of the church are like TV sets receiving the signal from the Television Stations. Few are Television Stations.' I thought of us because we WERE like TV stations for we had soo much of the Word of God in us. We spoke the Word to one another and we didn't go through any specialized training to bring people to Jesus. (At least that was my experience in the mid 70s). We are the type of people God could use mightily to teach others the Word of God, to encourage them in Christ...without strings attached. Please don't misunderstand or think I am 'elevating' US whatsoever. I'm not but I know by reading the posts, we are not lightweights. It doesn't mean we are heavyweights either. It doesn't mean we don't learn from our brothers & sisters outside the Recovery parameter. I've made my rounds among the various churches: Baptists, Lutherns, Pentecostals, Charasmetics, Word of Faith, home groups and of course the RCC. I've talked to Mormons and JWs...and plenty of non believers. I've learned alot from them...but mainly learned to tune in to God the Holy Spirit, the Voice of God THROUGH the WORD of GOD living and operating in me as I mediate and pray it. Quote:
the authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness. Are we not disciples as the original 12 were? Much of the charasmatic, Word of Faith people are into signs & wonders & healings. While we did 'bind and loose' in the prayer meetings, we never studied Matthew 10:1 and scriptures like it. We didn't have the true balance of the Word of God. Perhaps no 'church' does but we can pray that we DO ALL to the GLORY of GOD: cast out demons, heal the sick, evangelize, teach the Word of God, build up the body of Christ, pray without ceasing pray. Laugh, Sing, make Melody in our hearts, fill the earth with the Glory of God through our Love for Him & He for us, with our praises and Joy of the Lord in the midst of our trials, tribulations and tests. Quote:
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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07-20-2010, 04:00 PM
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Location: DFW area
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Unto (or anyone else with access to hard-copy LSM books):
Would it be possible to provide chapter and section references for each of the page references that Nigel gives for books in the LSM online library? Without hard-copy, it is virtually impossible to find the quotes mentioned to see the broader context. I've gone cross-eyed looking for the reference in endnote #3. Probably will have the same problem for many others.
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Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel |
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07-28-2010, 08:57 AM
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#19 |
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Location: Russia
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
As for me, the most prudent way to take 7 churches in Revelation is to take all the warnings to all the seven churches as relevant to us today. After all, these seven epistles were written to the churches that existed at apostle John's time. Therefore, I take all seven epistles as written to all the churches throughout the church history. No need to divide them into periods.
The same I think is applicable to the rest of the book of Revelation. Even though there will be a final consummation of all the things mentioned in Revelation, all those things have been relevant throughout the church history, even though maybe in different degrees. Otherwise, it is easy to dismiss the content of this book as something that has already happened (preterist or historicist approach) or something that will happen some time in the future and to the Jews only (dispensational approach). The Word of God despite the historical framing it was written in contains eternal principles as it was inspired by the eternal Spirit.
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Most men pursue pleasure with such breathless haste that they hurry past it. Soren Kierkegaard |
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08-09-2010, 06:39 PM
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Location: Natal Transvaal
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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But they were simultaneously applicable to the actual recipients. Jesus' letters to the angels of the assemblies in Asia were quite pointed. This seems to be overlooked in the LCs. But if we could see the situation on the ground more clearly, and what John [Jesus] was concerned about, we would more clearly see the portents of history looming. Can you imagine a couple of brothers in Thyatira, discussing John's hard words. One reassures the other, "Don't worry, Theophilus; that's a prediction of the degradation coming a dozen centuries hence. Nothing to do with us." "Oh...whew. I thought John's letter was directed towards us. I was worried." "Nah. We're fine. It's the coming Catholic church that's gonna be in trouble." Of course I am being facetious, but that is what you end up with unless you learn to look beyond the historical focus of these Brethren acolytes. You end up with something that is far removed from the reality on the ground. Not once do I remember anyone asking, "What was this supposed to mean to the recipients? What was John's 'take home message' to the saints?" Instead it was, "What does this mean to us, today?" Which, with Lee, seemed to be whatever he needed it to mean at that training, to keep the saints toeing the line. Quote:
As Nigel points out, you had to do some creative cut-and-pasting to make history "fit" the neat interpretation laid before the saints. Not to mention, you basically have to ignore the obvious question of what John wanted the saints in Asia to get from the letters, and the subsequent chapters. "He who has an ear to hear", indeed.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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08-10-2010, 04:10 PM
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#21 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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Lee was a literalist on steroids ; industrial strength. He was a master of cutting scripture up into puzzle pieces and rearranging them to say what he thought they should say. He was also very sold on himself, and his megalomania stuck out like a sore thumb. So he was sure to put himself at the top of his picture puzzle. Such literalism does not produce the fruits of the Spirit, listed in Galatians.
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Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise. |
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01-24-2015, 11:12 AM
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#22 |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Dr Tomes> LSM’s prophetic teachings ought to be re-evaluated in the light of world events and recent biblical scholarship. That is a huge task; it encompasses Daniel’s prophecy of “70 weeks,” the four beasts, Babylon, the Antichrist etc
Several years ago when this was first published, what Dr. Tomes meant by "recent biblical scholarship" may not have been understood. A more recent article (about Etymological Errors) , also posted here in this forum, reveals Dr. Tomes departure from respected and credible scholars and his embracing of scholars who question the inerrancy of the Bible. In revisiting this article it is evident that it is very much like the more recent one in that is packaged as an attack on the Witness Lee, Watchman Nee, and LSM... but in reality this article is a dismissal of established and respected biblical interpretation of Rev 2 and 3 in favor of..... ????....well, frankly, it is not clear what Dr. Tomes' interpretation is of Rev 2 and Rev 3.....he never makes that clear nor makes a case for it. Here are a few issues of credibility with this article: 1) Dr. Tomes is infatuated with this notion that modern scholars are more credible than older scholars (those before the middle of the last century). That whole premise is anti-biblical as the Scriptures clearly state that in the last days apostasy would prevail... using the same "time" logic as Tomes one could make the case that the apostates are the more progressive and modern scholars that he now embraces. 2) Dr. Tomes never offers an interpretation of the prophecy in Rev 2 and 3. In spite of the fact that the bible clearly intimates the prophetic nature of this book. Rev 1:3 and 22:7. He offers no alternative views and relies on the persuasion of his argument that if Witness Lee embraced it then it must wrong... if LSM publishes it then he will find fault. 3) Other christian groups are named (Pentecostal, Independent) and suggests that they would not fit into the four categories of churches that remain at the Lord's return. On the contrary, those easily fit those into the category of Protestant churches. Besides, Rev 2 and 3 do not have 8 and 9 categories of churches.... there are 7. 4) Dr. Tomes deploys irrelevant facts to shore up his argument. For instance, he mentions white man's religion, and European worldviews, and African churches... yet , none of that is relevant to a biblical interpretation of Rev 2 and 3. 5) Tomes appears to mock the watchfulness of believers in past times and cites an example of where people thought the end was near but now in hindsight we know that the end was not near. Yet, he seems oblivious to the arrangement that the Lord Himself conveyed to His church... Watch and pray because the day and the hour are not known. Shouldn't every believer have the aspiration that the Lord will return at any moment? Surely, the Lord's return is imminent and believers throughout the century have been preserved from evil things and the world by holding the view of is imminent return. 6) Dr. Tomes is disingenuous when he argues the case that the suffering church of Smyrna is not the only body of believers that have suffered and therefore Smyrna must not represent a stage in church history only. This is a fallacy of argument because neither Lee or Nee ever said that believers would not suffer persecution except in Smyrna..... and in fact, they explicitly stated that believers in the tribulation would suffer. Tomes makes other unsubstantiated statements but these few counterpoints are sufficient to show Tomes is engaging in dismissing one teaching in favor of modern ones without doing the due diligence to make a compelling case of his own to support an alternative view of prophetic nature of Rev 2 and 3. The readers of this and other Tomes articles should understand where he is coming from and not just embrace his articles because he is anti-LSM. Dr. Tomes has departed from orthodox views in favor of modern ones and does not offer an alternative interpretation but rather is merely content to dismiss someone else's. Whether he does this with malice of forethought or this is just sloppy scholarship is up to the reader to decide.
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01-24-2015, 04:53 PM
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#23 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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Your other proposed conclusion is worse. You ascribe "malice of forethought" to Tomes for critiquing Lee's commentary on Revelation chapters 2-3. I find it hard to believe that you could even think of supporting a publisher with such "malice of forethought" on every page of Affirmation & Critique, not to mention some of Lee's other seamy works like Fermentation. Could you please rethink your position on "Examining LSM's Eschatology ..." and re-address some specifics that we can discuss, with specific references to Tomes' paper?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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01-24-2015, 06:01 PM
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#24 |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Ohio> Could you please rethink your position on "Examining LSM's Eschatology ..." and re-address some specifics that we can discuss, with specific references to Tomes' paper?
Ohio, I would have been delighted to address the specifics of Tomes' alternative interpretation of Rev 2 & 3.... except he did not provide one. He said what he was against... but not what he was for. That is not scholarship, that is an Op Ed. Many writers have already made a compelling case for the prophetic interpretation of Rev 2 and 3. I believe they rightly divided the word on those chapters. Tome's points about white man's religion, European-view, pentecostal history, Africa, China, etc. are part of a non sequitur fallacy. An interesting history lesson... and that is all. If you wish to present specifics of his interpretation of Rev 2 & 3 I will be glad to discuss it with you. That would be refreshing. Or if you wish to discuss the specifics of my objections to Tomes' presentation and arguments that would be fine too. That is why I posted them. However, if you, like Tomes, are only interested in dismissing the prophetic interpretation held by many credible biblical scholars without providing an alternative interpretation then there is nothing to rethink. Thanks
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01-24-2015, 06:40 PM
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#25 |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
When Mr Tomes claims to be the "minister of the age," the "wise master builder," or the "one man" that God has on earth for his generation...or, when thousands of people start believing that he is any of these things...then, it would probably be fair to expect Tomes to present a cohesive theology of his own.
Fortunately, this does not seem to apply to Tomes. Unfortunately, it very much does apply to Witness Lee.
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And for this cause, the Good Shepherd left the 99 pieces of crappy building material, and went out to recover the one remnant piece of good building material. For the Lord will build His church, and He will build it with the good building material, not the crappy kind. |
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01-24-2015, 07:07 PM
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#26 |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
Ray, this much bigger than Witness Lee.
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Cassidy |
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01-24-2015, 07:07 PM
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#27 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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I just took a class on Revelations at a local Bible school. The dean taught the course, and he did not interpret the 7 churches prophetically as Nee/Lee have done. I can't speak for the whole of the body of Christ, but I think most Christians read these 7 letters just as they read the other epistles of the New Testament, e.g. they would not dismiss the letters to Ephesus, Smyrna, and Pergamos claiming that these churches no longer exist in our times, as both Nee and Lee have done. I have read extensively of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren, and never would I consider that they were the fulfillment of the Philadelphian prophetic letter. On the contrary, the mean-spirited accusations and narrow-minded judgments of the exclusives are anything but brotherly love. It was these same exclusives who attempted to convince us that they were the modern day Philadelphia. A little self-serving wouldn't you say?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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01-24-2015, 07:32 PM
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#28 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
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So if you declare, for example, that pulsar stars are composed of millions of glowing silver kittens, and I say I don't buy it, then that's just an Op-Ed until I come up with an alternative? Sorry. I don't have to have an alternative explanation of something to see the problems in someone else's explanation. Tomes wasn't pointing out that Rev 2 & 3 could not be prophetic at all. He was pointing out the problems with Lee's specific prophetic interpretation of it. One would think that you could appreciate those problems, specifically with the progressive historical narrative nature of the interpretation. Rev 2 & 3 can be considered prophetic without having to apply each church to a specific historical slice of Christianity. But Lee did it because he wanted to place his group at the top of the totem pole. Otherwise he would have had no reason to interpret it that way. And Tomes has shown that as time has moved on, that interpretation holds a lot less water. Regardless, anyone who interprets Revelation prophecy to cast his little camp as the church in Philadelphia while casting the rest of Christianity as the other flawed churches is being transparently self-serving. Good grief, I can see you falling for it when you were 25. But still? Really? You still think God's going to reward you for being faithful to Witness Lee? You really did drink the Kool-Aid, didn't you? "Bigger than Witness Lee?" Not by much. Not really. It's pretty much always just been about him. |
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01-26-2015, 10:08 AM
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#29 |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches
I really like KSA's comment that all the negative warnings are applicable to us today. I have never heard a sermon on "Blessed is he who reads this prophecy." That's too simple. I believe most on this forum have had the experience of just plain reading the Bible and realizing that you heard God speak. Nothing "spooky" nothing sensational. I did get one thing from WL and that was a lot of the Lord's speaking is "No", you are wrong. WL didn't preach too much on that thru the years and I never heard his admitting much "wrong." He was so meek, humble, perfect, especially if you only knew him from 50 feet away.
The first conference I went to was in Atlanta, Jan 1, 1973 and it was heavily spoken by John Ingals and I was bolled over. I had never heard the book of Rev spoken of like that. Wow! This must be the "truth." We are Philidelphia, we are it, look at us, come meet with us, we are the only ones speaking the truth. But after many years, I was wrong! So sad. But one little incouraging thing, I still occasionally get the speaking of the Lord from just reading the Bible without some guru telling me what it actually means. This Revelation thing is almost like watching Disney phantasy and how I was taken in by WL. 1Cor 15:45 says the Last Adam became a life giving spirit and before that on the day His ressurrection Jesus told His disciples I am not a spirit. Did they contradict each other? I don't know and sorry to say I don't care. Both Paul and Lee are dead and yet the Bible stands. The word of God is living. I sort of like that. Lisbon |
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02-11-2019, 02:38 AM
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#30 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES
Joel R. Beek:
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If there is anything that the people of our day need to realize, it is these very words of Jonah, simple yet neglected: “Salvation is of the LORD.” 
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02-11-2019, 06:47 AM
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#31 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES
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So instead of having to deal with these stones in your heart (Matt 13) you can say "hey, not me, I'm not in the Catholic church" and that isn't me I left the protestant church, and I'm surely not Laodicea. I would argue that all of these stones are present in everyone's heart. Yes, the Catholic church does reveal what it is to "tolerate Jezebel" but that doesn't mean the Local Church wasn't also guilty of making this compromise. Balaam is the example of a false prophet and his pernicious teachings infiltrating the church, doesn't mean that these are not an influence in every Christian gathering, just as Paul warned that wolves would come along. The damage of this teaching, to me, is that it takes the Bible which is God's word of light and salt, and makes it good for nothing but the dung hill. The principle I thought we were taught was to take the word and apply it to ourselves, not others. Be strict with yourself and general with others.
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02-11-2019, 07:34 AM
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#32 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES
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How interesting is it that the strongest proponents of these views, including Darby, Nee, and Lee, all taught that their assemblies were the fulfillment of Philadelphia? Has no church in the present age ever lost their first love? Do we no longer need to try the apostles? Has the church stopped suffering? Has no church ever become worldly? Not according to Nee, who taught that the prophetic fulfillment of the first three churches no longer no longer exists on earth. Biblical "common sense" tells us that the warnings and the blessings of all seven churches are urgently needed today.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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02-11-2019, 08:15 AM
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#33 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES
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They shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God |
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02-12-2019, 03:37 AM
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#34 | |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES
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I see no indication in the text that folks in the first century were supposed to understand that these 7 letters stood for successive "church ages" spanning centuries in the far future. One must then conclude that if so, either John didn't realize the import of his own writings, or his "hidden meaning" wasn't discovered until Darby et al, at which point they discovered that they were the Recovered Church of Brotherly Love. How very convenient. Like the Apostle of the Age recovering the Truth about One Apostle per Age. Or those who meet on the True Ground of the Church, realizing, Hey, they are the (only) ones meeting on the True Ground of the Church. How conveniently self-serving. Let's all congratulate ourselves on having arrived. Too bad for everyone that isn't Me and My Chosen Band. Even Paul had to admit, "We have not yet laid hold"... what would he have thought of all this thinly disguised self promotion, I wonder.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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02-12-2019, 04:19 AM
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#35 |
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Re: Examining LSM's Eschatology - Revelation's 7 Churches TOMES
How about the fact that Jesus only says He is coming quickly to the last 4 churches? That is what is used as an indication that only those 4 are present at His coming.
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