Website full of hate, finger pointing and blaming

After reading some posts on this site, it looks like a bunch of hateful comments by some Christians who did not like meeting with local church. Hey, not everybody is going to like meeting at every meeting place, but too much hatred and talk about negative opinions here. Not enough helpful chat on Bible verses and fellowship...this site is a waste of time. The Lord will judge Witness Lee, every believer who meets with a local church, and every beliver who posts hate on this site....Deal with it.

[Ohio]

Thanks for stopping by and telling us how much you hate, and that God is going to get us.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks for stopping by and telling us how much you hate, and that God is going to get us.

The person who tries to walk the Christian walk soon finds themselves in an existentialist dilemma: the world around them is quite un-Christian, but as soon as they speak up and point this out, they find out that they're worse! Not only are they as bad as everyone else, but now they've added hypocrisy to their sins by pointing out those of the rest! James trenchantly notes the safe path, that true Christian religion is to keep oneself unspotted from the world (including, I daresay, making anonymous posts on discussion forums) and to visit widows and orphans in their afflictions. That's it. Anything more, and you're quickly in league with the evil one.

Now, in the church it's somewhat unavoidable, if we're to be called church, the house of God. Paul said, "Remove the evil man from your midst" - obviously evil must be called out, and expelled. And if the evil is running the show, and the church is caught in the tide of evil, and is spell-bound and won't listen, then it must be shouted from the housetops. An example might be if the son of the supposed minister of the age is caught abusing the help (and yes it was abuse) in the ministry offices, and the witnesses are railroaded and run out of town, then it must be shouted.

But then the second part kicks in, that who among you is without sin? I believe that's where the prayer comes in. If it wasn't necessary, Jesus wouldn't have taught us to pray, "Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive". So I do apologize for my uncharitable spirit, and try (yet again) to get it right, to communicate without hatred, insulting, blaming, judging etc etc. I do apologize if some of my posts lacked "life" or "joy" or "peace", as nebulous as that is to ascertain. And I try to forgive others and bear with them in love.

WL acolytes have a convenient dodge, that of subjectivity. They've been conditioned to "sense" when someone is "negative". Now, Ron Kangas can speak something to them from the podium and it's supposedly adjusting or correcting or rebuking. You know, calling a spade a spade... good old Christian tough love. But God help you if you try to point out error to the speaker at the dais! Then you're supposedly full of the gall of bitterness and hatred, rancor, divisiveness and so forth.

Today I'm reminded that my rebellious and angry teenage self was perhaps closer to God than my religious later life. Why? Because my teenage self was honest. I was angry. My later life covered over my anger with a veneer of religiosity. It's been a hard road, but it's the only one I know and I'm going to keep going. I ask forgiveness of others, and I forgive others. And we go on. We can pray for one another, to be healed of our anger and fear and shame. We can be honest and peaceful at the same time. Jesus was. How could he have healed others, unless he was peaceful! Try healing someone when you're angry....

And he gave us all his peace. He bought it, paid for it, and gave it to us. Now we have to hold it, and not let go.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

After reading some posts on this site, it looks like a bunch of hateful comments by some Christians who did not like meeting with local church. Hey, not everybody is going to like meeting at every meeting place, but too much hatred and talk about negative opinions here. Not enough helpful chat on Bible verses and fellowship...this site is a waste of time. The Lord will judge Witness Lee, every believer who meets with a local church, and every beliver who posts hate on this site....Deal with it.

Un,

Please read the Mission Statement of this forum. That should clarify the purpose/mission of this website.

A problem I see with your position, your definition of "hate" is tied to whether you march in lockstep with the "ministry" of Witness Lee...or not.

People who have been hurt by false teachers are often angry... understandably so. You minimize the pain and suffering of those of us who were damaged by their time in the Local Church under Witness Lee's "ministry" as simply "did not like” meeting with the Local Church. This is a hateful thing to say. Or worse, you play the dreaded "negtive" card. The truth is not always positive. The truth is often negative, too. Is what you've read on this forum the "truth"...based on Witness Lee's "ministry", or the truth of God's word? Parts of the Bible itself couldn't be more "negative".

You clearly haven't fully read the scripture quotes on this forum. Maybe you should do that first, before judging us.

Those who have been lied to and have had God misrepresented to them...which is, honestly, most of us...may be angry. Deal with it. Wounded believers need a place to talk, and to know that they are not alone. Wounded believers need to find out the truth about Witness Lee and the Local Church. This is what this forum is about: Making sense of the "Lord's Recovery."

And, right on queue, as you play the "don't say anything negative" card. How 'bout this helpful Bible verse:

Eph. 5:11 Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

More truth: God's judgment is his mercy. We pray that God judge the deeds of darkness in our lives, in this life, while there is time to repent. We pray that the Lord would enlighten our understanding and bring us to repentance. This is how we "deal with it"...we expose it, as we are commanded to do.

Thanks for stopping by. Most who do a hit and run on the forum aren't interested in a discussion, but taking a cheap shot at us. Please know, we are dealing with it as best we can.

Nell

[Trapped]

Welcome to the forum, Unregistered!

I hope you'll stick around and dialogue, but as Nell said, it's very common for people to drive-by, post an opinion, and then disappear. But we'll reply in the hopes that you're at least going to read the responses, even if you don't say anything.

First of all, I hope you can see the difference between what happens here and what happens on local church/LSM websites. You posted your own "negative" and "opinion-filled" post about this site, putting it down, and denigrating the people and the behavior.

And this site still allowed you to post it. The owners of this forum were under zero obligation to approve your post for publication. But your post was let through so there could be open, honest, discussion in the light, even though your post was "negative" against the very site you posted it on.

That's one sign of a healthy place.

The local church, however, drowns out anyone voicing a concern, or anyone voicing an opinion that isn't in line with Witness Lee's opinion. I know there are exceptions to this that prove the rule, but I'm thinking of things like what the co-workers and LSM did on sites like livingtohim.com, where fellowship about Jo Casteel's FB letter was posted, and any comments posted that expressed an opinion contrary to the falsehoods that LSM spread were deleted. Over and over and over again. Meetings were had where church kid after church kid were recruited to stand up and proclaim how wonderful the local church was......just because one person, Jo Casteel, stood up and posted about the serious issues that are also present.

All of that kind of behavior on the part of the local church/co-workers/LSM is a big sign of an unhealthy place.

So I hope first of all you can appreciate that this is one of the only places where frank and honest discussion about the local church can occur.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

After reading some posts on this site, it looks like a bunch of hateful comments by some Christians who did not like meeting with local church.

I'm going to hazard a guess that you didn't read enough posts if that's the impression you came away with. I myself would probably never describe my feeling as "I didn't like meeting with the local church". That's not what any of us here are saying at all.

We are saying the local church is deceptive. It's a fabrication based on a lie. It uses the name of God and the name of Jesus to hook naive people, and then uses intentional manipulation techniques to influence and mentally trap those people, and then switch the gospel of Jesus Christ out for the gospel of Witness Lee. But the words "Christ" are all over "the ministry" and so people are kept in deception for a long, long time.

We are saying that the subtly condemnatory nature of the ministry, interwoven throughout every book, keep people oppressed, depressed, miserable, trapped, and withering inside as human beings. This is what comes out if you actually talk to members in the group honestly for long enough. The ministry oppresses the very people that Jesus died for to set free.

I can think of scores of teachings of Witness Lee that are explicitly contrary to the Bible. And all this stuff is bad. Damaging. Harmful. Threats to life in some cases. There is a reason why Jesus say "woe" to the Pharisees over and over. Those Pharisees were doing the same things that go on in the local church.

The problem is, nothing can change in the local church. As is typical of cults, if you speak up about the problems, you get attacked as "hateful" or being "negative". You know this, because it's exactly what you just did in your post to us!

But none of us are affected by what you wrote, because we fully expect it, because what you wrote is the classic response of people who are in a cult.

Your post literally served to prove the point, whether you are aware of it or not.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hey, not everybody is going to like meeting at every meeting place, but too much hatred and talk about negative opinions here. Not enough helpful chat on Bible verses and fellowship...this site is a waste of time.

There's TONS of threads on Bible verses! There's TONS of threads on people asking for fellowship and receiving it!

As Nell posted, the Bible says we are to expose works of darkness. Exposing works of darkness is going to "sound negative" because works of darkness are themselves negative.

Cancer is negative. Abuse is negative. A cheating spouse is negative. A car accident is negative. We can talk about negative things, and as humans, to cope with experiencing them we HAVE TO talk about negative things. It's not always going to sound pretty and uplifting, but.....life isn't always pretty and uplifting.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The Lord will judge Witness Lee, every believer who meets with a local church, and every beliver who posts hate on this site....

Absolutely right. But again, what you wrote is typical of people who are in cults or cult-like groups. There's two implications here to what you wrote:

1. "The Lord will judge" - meaning "let it go, leave it up to Him, stop talking about it", and
2. A veiled threat to us that God will judge us.

Of course both of those are true. But it's not the whole truth.

The Lord will judge, of course. But the church is also supposed to judge. "The Lord will judge" never means "let whatever happens happen and don't do anything about it". That's not a very salt-like Christian. We are supposed to judge the righteous judgment. Paul tells the believers they will judge angels and so they'd better be able to judge things now! If the church is supposed to treat an unrepentant believer as a tax collector, the church better be able to make a judgment about the situation to do so.

"The Lord will judge" is a gross and incomplete misrepresentation of the real picture. It in no way means that there isn't any action or justice now.

Vengeance? No. But action? Of course! No one is safe if we just "let the Lord" judge everything at the end and don't take any action now about things.

Yes, God will judge everything written here too. But the implicit undertone of your statement is that this site is going to come down on the wrong side of judgment. If we are doing what the Bible tells us to do - expose works of darkness, judging rightly, freeing people from entangling and entrapping false doctrines - and doing so in as much love as we possibly can and apologizing when we offend or overstep, I don't lose much sleep over these discussions in that regard.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Deal with it.

That's what this site is doing.

With all sincerity, please come back and dialogue, unregistered. I am serious when I say that the more I talked with members in the local church, every time, eventually, the truth would come out that they were actually miserable in it. Think about the meetings you have been in where the speaking of Ron Kangas or Mark Raabe about "death" left you feeling dead and condemned. Think about the fact that you don't feel like an "overcomer" after years or decades in the church. Think about cracking open yet another ministry book and reading the same old same old every time....and that you already know all of it because you've heard the same stale thing for years. Think about the fact that Witness Lee did things like teach "get out of your mind" and "we must close our mind" when the Bible never says anything even remotely close to something like that.

I was just reading in Luke 24 the other day. After Jesus resurrected, He was appearing to His disciples and they were startled before they realized who He was. Verse 45 says Jesus then did this:

Luke 24:45
Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.

Jesus opened their minds so the disciples could understand the Scriptures. Not "got them out of their minds and into their spirit". But opened their minds!

Witness Lee taught that we should, literally, "reject our minds", "close our minds", and "get out of our minds". This is a screamingly unhealthy teaching for any human being, and particularly for a Christian. We should never reject any of our God-given faculties!

Never mind the fact that the Bible also teaches we should love God with our minds, we should set our minds on the spirit, we should be of a sober mind, and we should sing and pray with our minds. All of these are using our minds, and none of these are "getting out of our minds". I mean, one of the very common teachings in the local church is demonstrably contrary to the Bible!

And there are lots of anti-biblical teachings like that in the local church, wrapped up in biblical-sounding language, unregistered. Our heart is sincere in discussing these things. Please continue the discussion with us.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Think about the meetings you have been in where the speaking of Ron Kangas or Mark Raabe about "death" left you feeling dead and condemned. Think about the fact that you don't feel like an "overcomer" after years or decades in the church. Think about cracking open yet another ministry book and reading the same old same old every time....and that you already know all of it because you've heard the same stale thing for years. Think about the fact that Witness Lee did things like teach "get out of your mind" and "we must close our mind" when the Bible never says anything even remotely close to something like that.
Trapped

Why do people feel like they aren't overcomers? The LR does a great job at making it seem like it’s your fault. But if you’re saved by Grace not by works, why would it be? Love this point.

[Trapped]

Unregistered, come baaaaaaaaaccccckkkkkkkk! Your input is worthwhile!

Athanasius stated, "Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Athanasius also observed: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." Believers being deified is not Witness Lee or Martin Luther or Hudson Taylor teaching. It is the teaching of the Bible.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Athanasius stated, "Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Athanasius also observed: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." Believers being deified is not Witness Lee or Martin Luther or Hudson Taylor teaching. It is the teaching of the Bible.

In all my LC years, I never heard Athanasius cited. For that matter, hardly ever was any church father cited. But when deification was being promoted, Athanasius was solemnly brought forth to show how well-grounded our teaching was.

And Athanasius' writings are not "the teaching of the Bible."

Originally Posted by Unreg

Some believers in Laodicea are lukewarm in their love for the Lord, thinking they have need of nothing and they are counseled to buy gold and eyesalve that they may see. This is not hatred speaking from the Lord. It is to enlighten believers and warn them. Same when RK and MR use these portions of the Holy Word. Looks like you need some eyesalve that you may see the intentions and motives of these two brothers, huh?

Yes, we do need eyesalve - I agree. But RK and MR and MC also need eyesalve. WL and WN desperately - desperately! - needed eyesalve. When witnesses came forward over the years to warn them, they were castigated as "rebellious" and shunned. In Chinese culture, it's simply unthinkable to correct the head of a Guanxi network. WL told us that China was "virgin soil" for the Lord. That statement was wishful thinking, and today we can clearly see the effect of that. The untrammeled subjectivity + the fallen human soul = a trap. When WL corrected someone it was an adjustment, but when someone corrected him it was an accusation and an attack.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Athanasius stated, "Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Athanasius also observed: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."

First, no matter how great Athanasius was, does God say "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God?"

Originally Posted by Unregistered

It is the teaching of the Bible.

Can you show me the verses, please?
I can find justification, regeneration, adoption, sanctification, glorified, but I can't find deify.

Here is an article to share with you:https://www.gotquestions.org/deification.html

What the Eastern Orthodox Church calls “deification” might be understood by evangelicals as the new birth and subsequent sanctification. But the Orthodox concept of deification takes sanctification further to include a mystical union with God. The biggest problem with the doctrine is not the term deification but the means to it, as taught by the Eastern Orthodox Church. According to the New Testament, we are united with Christ, filled with the fullness of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, and declared to be right with God on the basis of faith in Christ. It is not something that happens as the result of a (perhaps) lifelong pursuit of unity with God through effort and discipline. In Christ we have become “partakers of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:14). The actual experience of this can ebb and flow, but the fact of it never changes.

The great question that must be answered by every religion that takes a holy God seriously is “how can a sinful man stand before God and be fully justified?” There are really only two answers. Either God accepts the sinner based on some effort on the part of the sinner to attain a state of righteousness or God accepts the sinner on the basis of Christ’s righteousness credited to the sinner. Unfortunately, the Eastern Orthodox process of deification seems to fall squarely within the first option.

Originally Posted by unregistered

Looks like you need some eyesalve that you may see the intentions and motives of these two brothers, huh?

Of course, we buy eyesalve from the Holy Spirit but not from man.
Num.23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie.
Rom.3:4 let God be true, but every man a liar;

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Athanasius stated, "Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life." Athanasius also observed: "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God." Believers being deified is not Witness Lee or Martin Luther or Hudson Taylor teaching. It is the teaching of the Bible.

Athanasius may say it, but if the Bible doesn't also say it, it ain't the teaching of the Bible.

"Inherit everlasting life" doesn't mean "become God".

The tree of life was in the middle of the garden of Eden. After Adam and Eve sinned, they were kept from that tree so they wouldn't not eat of it and live forever. Presumably, if they hadn't sinned, they would have maintained unrestricted access to the tree of life, freely eaten of the tree of life, and thus lived forever. After all, death is the wages of sin, and if they hadn't sinned, they wouldn't have done anything to receive the punishment of death for.

Does Adam and Eve having access to the tree of life so they can live forever mean they were God because of it? No. They were human beings who were allowed access to live forever.

This "become God" thing just doesn't hold up any way you look at it.

Trapped

In the booke of Revelation, the Lord speaks to the churches and it is a solemn warning to His loving believers. Some believers in Ephesus left their first love. Some believers in the church in Pergamos hold to teachings of the nations. Some believers in Laodicea are lukewarm in their love for the Lord, thinking they have need of nothing and they are counseled to buy gold and eyesalve that they may see. This is not hatred speaking from the Lord. It is to enlighten believers and warn them. Same when RK and MR use these portions of the Holy Word. Looks like you need some eyesalve that you may see the intentions and motives of these two brothers, huh?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

In the booke of Revelation, the Lord speaks to the churches and it is a solemn warning to His loving believers. Some believers in Ephesus left their first love. Some believers in the church in Pergamos hold to teachings of the nations. Some believers in Laodicea are lukewarm in their love for the Lord, thinking they have need of nothing and they are counseled to buy gold and eyesalve that they may see. This is not hatred speaking from the Lord. It is to enlighten believers and warn them. Same when RK and MR use these portions of the Holy Word. Looks like you need some eyesalve that you may see the intentions and motives of these two brothers, huh?

Well, if this is the same unregistered who started this thread......you are just not much fun, are you?!

But I'm glad you returned.

Can you do me a favor? Google "laodicea eyesalve".

Read the first couple websites about it. There's not much information, but it's there, and it's significant to the solemn warning of the Lord in Revelation 3.

Notice that Laodicea was known for it's famous eyesalve. In other words, due to it's wealth and reknown about a few things - eyesalve being one of them - they really, really thought they possessed a lot. Like, everything they needed. Like, they had no need of anything.

But the Lord told them.....this place that took so much pride in its famous eyesalve.....that they were actually blind. What a shock that must have been for them to hear! This is like telling some crude-oil-rich country that they are poor! It just doesn't compute!

The problem is, unregistered, the speaking in the local church is so painfully similar to what Laodicea thought about itself.

Laodicea said: "....‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’" (Rev. 3:17)

But the local church says exactly that! They say:

"We have all the light"
"We have all the riches"
"We have the pure ministry"
"We have no need of anything from anyone else"

This is "how to speak Laodicean 101!"

The point of eyesalve is not to see the intentions of other people like you have said here: "Looks like you need some eyesalve that you may see the intentions and motives of these two brothers, huh?"

The Lord admonished them to buy eyesalve from Him so they, who thought they had no need of anything, could really see. They could really see that their haughty claims of self-sufficiency really showed just how lacking and blind and pitiful they were.

Please keep coming back. Maybe at a certain point we'll get to discuss things rather than just encountering your own finger-pointing and blame?

Trapped

Hi trapped, I do not spend too much time on this website because it is full of gossip, and not real building fellowship. Look at the title of this website, "Local Church Discussion"----should be "Local Church Gossip". And then--"Making sense of the Lords Recovery from the fallen mind of man". There is much twisting of scripture to make things fit into m,an's fallen mind. This is not making sense of anything, it is just using words to make points and leaves believers trapped in their little minds without the Spirit. So many claims are distorted and made up, false nonsense that I cannot waste my time. Verses are quoted to argue among Christian, instaed of using the Holy Word to build up believers. My experience in the Lords Recovery is nothing what some backslidden believers can claim. I have learned to to pray, pray-read, share the gospel, save others, build up the Body of Christ and many others vital matters that pertain to living the Christian life. I hope the Lord has mercy to grant you more insight and then experience of His full salvation.