Biblical evidence for becoming God in life & nature?

[Zezima]

Is there biblical evidence to support the notion of Gods economy is to make man the same as he in life and nature but not the god head? I ask because as I break free from the teachings of LSM I am realizing that I don’t see this in the Bible. We are clearly being made like God, but the same? Is this a doctrine worth keeping?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there biblical evidence to support the notion of Gods economy is to make man the same as he in life and nature but not the god head? I ask because as I break free from the teachings of LSM I am realizing that I don’t see this in the Bible. We are clearly being made like God, but the same? Is this a doctrine worth keeping?

You might be interested in this existing forum topic by Awoken, created 2/8/2015, titled
Deification: Original Post

Deification: Last Post, #36

Nell

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Nell

You might be interested in this existing forum topic by Awoken, created 2/8/2015, titled
Deification: Original Post

Deification: Last Post, #36

Nell

2015 was a long time ago, there is a new generation of “church kids” would be good to have another thread.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

2015 was a long time ago, there is a new generation of “church kids” would be good to have another thread.

Of course. Not meant to shut down the thread…it is forum history though.

Nell

[Zezima]

If you’re born of something, don’t you have the nature of that said thing?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

If you’re born of something, don’t you have the nature of that said thing?

Yes, sure. E.g. we could say that we are our parents, yet we are not our parents.

We are made in the image and likeness of God. We are also born of His Spirit. We are even to be transformed from glory to glory. Peter says we are partakers of His nature.

The entire basis of our belief system as Christians is the Bible, and more specifically that which the Spirit of God has decided to inspire in the many diverse writers of scripture. Consider all that God could have inspired. I believe this was specifically decided by the counsel of God. Many verses (and entire books) confirm this (e.g. 2 Peter 1.21 or John 15.26).

So we should content ourselves with what we have received, and not go beyond what is written. There much danger lies using speculations and inferences.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Zezima

If you’re born of something, don’t you have the nature of that said thing?

Wouldn’t that depend on your definition of “nature”? We all know Lee used language differently from commonly understood meanings.

Do you mean physically “born of”? Or spiritually?

Physical “nature”? DNA? Or what?

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

If you’re born of something, don’t you have the nature of that said thing?

I echo the others in the question of what does "nature" mean? As others have noted, Lee liked to use a word that sometimes didn't have any real meaning. For example, he taught that the "nature" of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is death. Huh? How do trees have a death "nature"? It's meaningless.

And I'll repeat along with them, being born of someone still means you have your OWN life. We are born of our parents, but we don't have our parent's life or nature. We have our own life/nature.

However, I think there's something else mixed in here. Others can talk more/better about this, but I think what this drills down to is what the Bible says about how we become sons of God. There are threads out there about this on the forum (to anyone reading - has Nigel Tomes written anything on this topic?), but I haven't dug into it deeply so I'll just say a small amount here.

Galatians 4:4 says plainly we are redeemed that we might receive "adoption to sonship". The Greek word there involves adoption.

The Recovery Version leaves out "adoption" in that verse and just says "receive the sonship". But it's "adoption to sonship". And as we all know, adopted sons don't have the same "nature" as the father who adopted them. Lee's errors build upon themselves, and I think this is one of them. Numerous errors to peel back.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there biblical evidence to support the notion of Gods economy is to make man the same as he in life and nature but not the god head? I ask because as I break free from the teachings of LSM I am realizing that I don’t see this in the Bible. We are clearly being made like God, but the same? Is this a doctrine worth keeping?

All supplied reference verses are purely speculative, regardless of what LSM says. No scripture says that we become God.

Rather we are "made in His image." (Gen 1.26) "We shall be like Him." (I John 3.2)

Here is a little known fact: WL started this teaching in the early 90's, calling it the "high peak truths of the recovery" as a distraction from the horrible scandal plaguing LSM at the time concerning his son Philip molesting the sisters and abusing the brothers while he was running LSM as the "Office Manager."

Here is the "foundational basis" for this teaching "to make man the same as He in life and nature" -- If I am a man, then my son is a man, hence God's own sons must also be "God in life." The "God in nature" is derived from 2 Peter 1.4 -- "you might become partakers of the divine nature."

Since WL has self-assumed deputy authority, akin to the so-called "vicar of Christ" at the Vatican, his eisegetical "stretch" thus becomes gospel truth within the confines of the recovery.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there biblical evidence to support the notion of Gods economy is to make man the same as he in life and nature but not the god head? I ask because as I break free from the teachings of LSM I am realizing that I don’t see this in the Bible. We are clearly being made like God, but the same? Is this a doctrine worth keeping?

Hi Zezima,

There are a couple paths that come to mind for me about your question.

The first is to talk about God's economy. So let's look at the main verse regarding God's economy, in 1 Timothy 1.

The Greek word for what Lee translated as "economy" is "oikonomia". It is usually translated as "management, stewardship, administration, etc". It can also be translated as economy, sure, with the understanding that it's not referring to a country's GDP. Economy in this sense means management, stewardship, administration.

It can also be translated as "dispensation". And dispensation in this sense means "a special period of time", but it is not the primary meaning of the word.

However, as is apparent, that is not the same word as what we know as "dispensing". "Dispensation" from oikonomia and "dispensing" are two different words that in English just happen to sound the same. But they don't mean the same thing, and they don't refer to the same thing. There is no form of the Greek word "oikonomia" where we would end up with "dispensing" like a liquid being poured as the translation.

But Lee didn't care.

He ran with it. He said that everyone had missed the key of God's economy, that God is dispensing Himself into us. But look at the verses in 1 Timothy 1!

3 Even as I exhorted you, when I was going into Macedonia, to remain in Ephesus in order that you might charge certain ones not to teach different things 4 Nor to give heed to myths and unending genealogies, which produce questionings rather than God's economy, which is in faith.
5 But the end of the charge is love out of a pure heart and out of a good conscience and out of unfeigned faith;
6 From which things some, having misaimed, have turned aside to vain talking,
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law, though they understand neither the things that they say, nor concerning what they confidently affirm.
8 But we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully
9 And knows this, that the law is not enacted for a righteous man but for the lawless and unruly, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and those who strike their mothers, for murderers,
10 For fornicators, homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers, and whatever other thing that is opposed to the healthy teaching,
11 According to the gospel of the glory of the blessed God, with which I was entrusted.

There's more to the chapter, but this is enough for me to ask "where do you see "God dispensing Himself" in this very passage about God's economy? Where?"

Someone else on this forum....maybe OBW?.....noted a while back that if you crack open Lee's The Economy of God, Lee's big support of his definition of God's economy towards the beginning of the book goes something like this:

"A survey of the scriptures will reveal that God's economy is to dispense Himself into......."

That's all. That's Lee's big scriptural support. He doesn't provide any other evidence. And then spends the rest of the book acting like his claiming it automatically makes it true.

"oikonomia" shows up in some other parts of Scripture. In Eph 1:11 it is the context of God's plan. In Eph 3:9 it is in the context of the gospel reaching everyone, both Jews and Gentiles, and that all can have boldness to approach God's throne. And again in Colossians 1:25, Paul refers to a "commission" (oikonomia) he was given, to proclaim that God has chosen to include Gentiles too.

Go read the portions I'm referring to -- test all things, including what any of us say here! (www.biblehub.com is a great resource where you can see numerous translations of a verse at once, as well as look at the Greek and how the Greek is defined.)

Nowhere is oikonomia anywhere in any passage that implies, describes, or points to "God dispensing Himself into us".

But with the foundation of God dispensing Himself into us, it's a short little leap to "you are what you eat" or "you become what you take in"....and all of a sudden we are becoming God (in L & N but not in the GH, of course). But the Bible doesn't say God is dispensing Himself, so the little leap Lee took has no foundation either.

I'll post a little later about the other path that came to mind.

Trapped

[Trapped]

The second path I mentioned that came to mind is regarding "becoming God".

Here is where the distinction between God (the Father) and His Son, Jesus, is important.

What does the Bible say about us? It says:

Romans 8:14
For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Romans 8:19
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers

John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Galatians 3:26
So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

Galatians 4:4-7
4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law,
5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba, Father.”
7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.

Got it? The Bible doesn't say we are God, are becoming God, or will be God in life and nature but not in the Godhead. It says we are children of God, sons of God, the many brothers of the Son of God. That's who we are and who we will be.

Not God. But His sons.

Big difference.

Yes, the Bible says we are partakers of the divine nature, but let's stick to that language then! What are we? Partakers of the divine nature. That's something different than "becoming God". Maybe partaking of the divine nature wasn't enough for Lee? Too bad. "Becoming God" goes way past what Scripture says. So I'm not going to say it.

Remember, you don't become what you eat. Are any of us sitting here as chicken? Okra? Boston lobster? Fish tacos? No. What you take in becomes a part of you, keeps you alive, nourishes you, sustains you. You don't become it!!

The Bible shows a lot of wonderful things about who we are in Christ - many of which I didn't touch on at all in this post. But Lee's doctrine on this subject can, in my digging into it and in my opinion, be tossed aside.

Trapped

[FigNewtonWarrior]

Yay I got my account made. I guess FigNewtonWarrior was more humorous



Made some typos on my previous post as an unregistered user, here are the corrections.

1. "Hey Zezima, later I will give make a thread"
Corrected- take out the word "give"


2. "I am quite surprised you are not the basic principles of how Lee defines "Gods Economy".

Corrected- *not aware of the basic principles


3. "In truth school did they go in detail in Lee beliefs "God Economy".
Corrected/revised- *of Lee definition of Gods Economy



Will definitely work on using Microsoft Word and proof reading before I post!

[FigNewtonWarrior]

Hey Trapped! I simply did a very basic paraphrase of how Lee and LSM would definite. I didn't feel like going on the Living Stream Ministry to copy and paste when I made that post and just made a clearer definition.

Lee Verbatim- God's eternal economy is to make man the same as He is in life and nature but not in the Godhead, and to make Himself one with man and man one with Him, thus to be enlarged and expanded in His expression that all His divine, that all His divine attributes may be expressed in human virtues."

My Paraphrase- Gods Economy in simple terms is- The living expression of God as the body of Christ. Basically, the idea here is that the purpose of believers is to be joined together in unity to live and abide in Christ Jesus and truly be the image God wanted man to be.

Ehhhh, Ill say I did a pretty good job (not perfect) of getting rid of all the fluffy language and making the definition simple. Also there are various circumstances that the LR would utilize additional "definitions" to Gods economy. For example to a newcomer they would say "do you know your purpose in life"? Then after you give an answer they dont like they would correct you and say all the things about "corporate expression of God and being part of his economy yata yata. They throw around all these terms and phrases constantly and give slightly varying "definitions" with a very similar theme (expressing God). Overall they say they intend to express God but in practice, they are severely lacking due to rejecting lots of scripture that reveal how to do that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by FigNewtonWarrior

Welcome to the forum FigNewtonWarrior! I had to laugh at this since my new neighbors across the street have a giant, but cuddly, warrior-like Bernese Mountain Dog named Fig Newton. This 125lb behemoth tip-toes around their cute little red-haired toddler. Adorable.

But back to the topic.

Lee Verbatim- God's eternal economy is to make man the same as He is in life and nature but not in the Godhead, and to make Himself one with man and man one with Him, thus to be enlarged and expanded in His expression that all His divine, that all His divine attributes may be expressed in human virtues."

I daresay that if Apostle Paul was asked to provide a basic summary of God's plan or "economy," he would not go to I Tim 1.4, but to I Tim 1.15, and he has basically spelled this out for us already.

"Faithful is the word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I daresay that if Apostle Paul was asked to provide a basic summary of God's plan or "economy," he would not go to I Tim 1.4, but to I Tim 1.15, and he has basically spelled this out for us already.

"Faithful is the word and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners."

Thank you for quoting verse 15. After 30 years in The Lord's Recovery I knew 1 Tim 1:4, of course, but would have had to look up v.15 if you hadn't listed it.

Your reply revives my spirit.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there biblical evidence to support the notion of Gods economy is to make man the same as he in life and nature but not the god head? I ask because as I break free from the teachings of LSM I am realizing that I don’t see this in the Bible. We are clearly being made like God, but the same? Is this a doctrine worth keeping?

I remember a Pastor once said that every verse has three applications, and not everything in the Bible is Christian doctrine. For example, Moses told the Jews not to eat pork, but Christians do.
1. Historical
2. Doctrinal-every verse in the Bible has a primary doctrinal and is aimed at a specific person, for a specific reason, to teach a specific truth.
3. Inspirational- 2Tim.3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Man is created in God’s image. Gen. 1:27 “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” Yet Gen. 5:3 said Adam “begat a son in his own likeness, after his image.” Not God’s image, why? Because man has fallen, spiritually dead, and lost the image of God. So we need to be regenerated by the Holy Spirit to regain the image of God.
John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” Rom. 8:29 “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
As sons of God, now, we should “put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph.4:22-23, and “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;” Titus 2:13.
I don’t know where he got this idea from, or if he had a tendency to "big talk" or in his term- the "high peak truth." To me, Lee’s teaching on this matter is his personal opinions without biblical evidence. It’s not a doctrine at all.

Check his teachings carefully, and you will notice what causes trouble for the local church. Mostly because of his "high peak truth", such as "the processed God", the "four-in-one God", the "only ministry"，plus "your question".

I once asked my sister-in-law, "What's the difference between the ways of our (LC's) teaching and JW's teaching since both only refer to their own publication/the leading brothers' teachings?" She was silent for a moment, and said " no different".
It's like a dead circle.

[FigNewtonWarrior]

Isaiah 43:10

10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor shall there be any after me.

[Drake]

This thread appears relevant to continue this line as we unfold the truth concerning deification.

Originally Posted by aron

In all my LC years, I never heard Athanasius cited. For that matter, hardly ever was any church father cited. But when deification was being promoted, Athanasius was solemnly brought forth to show how well-grounded our teaching was.

And Athanasius' writings are not "the teaching of the Bible."

aron,

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Athanasius all taught the deification of His believers and the matter is laid out carefully in the ministry of Brother Lee. Other church fathers were also mentioned by both Brother Nee and Brother Lee when it was relevant to a topic. Brother Lee and Brother Nee's messages are available in a few clicks at lsm.org ....free to anyone who wants to understand when they said and why, including citations and commentary about the church fathers.

This came out when deification was being opposed.. you said "promoted" as if Brother Lee was running a marketing campaign of some sort. As it often occurred in the sacred canon and evidenced throughout church history biblical truths were unveiled due to opposition. For instance, when the spirit of antichrist appeared in the early church and some began opposing the deity of Christ, the very eternal God come in the flesh, then the writings of John were released. Opposition to Martin Luther helped recover the biblical truth of salvation and justification by faith. The truth was already there, but the opposition to it facilitated its unveiling. And no, their writings are not scripture and may or may not be teachings from the Bible but they are instructive either way.

As a teacher of the Bible in this forum, you might consider factually representing the teachings of those you oppose instead of just dismissing them because you never heard it when you were there. All the opposition research needed is just a few clicks away that can be used as a factual base to criticize their teachings and present an informed opinion.

Thanks
Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Is there biblical evidence to support the notion of Gods economy is to make man the same as he in life and nature but not the god head? I ask because as I break free from the teachings of LSM I am realizing that I don’t see this in the Bible. We are clearly being made like God, but the same? Is this a doctrine worth keeping?

I appreciate this question. Having read through this thread and the topic brought up elsewhere about the church fathers I'd like to explore a little deeper from a scriptural perspective.

Truth and sound orthodox doctrine are table stakes as the basis of our faith and it shows us the One who is the true light, who brings us His life, the life that is the light of men (John 1: 4, 9) to beget sons (v12-v13) and impart something of Himself, full of grace and reality (v14) into us as grace upon grace (v16).

The Bible not only reveals truth and doctrine but also shows the effect of the work of Christ that we may receive and experience His life, the life of the Firstborn Son. The impartation of Christ's divine life and nature into His believers is with a goal, that is to become God in life and nature. This is not a minor point in the scripture but essential to accomplish God's eternal plan.

We never become or share in any part of the Godhead.

Also, those who deny or have doubts about the deity of Christ will never accept that He has produced many brothers by the impartation of His life and nature. In this thread I assume the deity of Christ is for sake of argument, accepted. The arguments against Christ's deity and Godhead are best handled in the Trinity thread. I will ignore those arguments here.

Drake

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

I appreciate this question. Having read through the thread and the topic brought up elsewhere about the church fathers I'd like to explore a little deeper from a scriptural perspective.

Truth and sound orthodox doctrine are table stakes as the basis of our faith and it shows us the One who is the true light, who brings us His life, the life that is the light of men (John 1: 4, 9) to beget sons (v12-v13) and impart something of Himself, full of grace and reality (v14) into us as grace upon grace (v16).

The Bible not only reveals truth and doctrine but also shows the effect of the work of Christ that we may receive and experience His life, the life of the Firstborn Son. The impartation of Christ's divine life and nature into His believers is with a goal, that is to become God in life and nature. This is not a minor point in the scripture but the pivot to accomplish God's eternal plan.

We never become or share in any part of the Godhead.

Also, those who deny or have doubts about the deity of Christ will never accept that He has produced many brothers by the impartation of His life and nature. In this thread I assume the deity of Christ is for sake of argument, accepted. The arguments against Christ's deity and Godhead are best handled in the Trinity thread. I will ignore those arguments here.

Drake

Drake,

Are you God? Was Witness Lee God when he died? When does a person ascend to being God? What should we call you?

N

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

Drake,

Are you God? Was Witness Lee God when he died? When does a person ascend to being God? What should we call you?

N

N,

Those characterizations are blasphemous because you mean God in His Godhead. I wasn’t ambiguous about that. Read what I wrote.

Rather, you may refer to me as one of the many brothers of the Firstborn Son of God who, by His grace, received His life and nature.

How about you? Have you received God’s life and nature? Are you a brother of the Firstborn Son of God?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Drake

N,

Those characterizations are blasphemous because you mean God in His Godhead.

Rather, you may refer to me as one of the many brothers of the Firstborn Son of God who, by His grace, received His life and nature.

How about you? Have you received God’s life and nature? Are you a brother of the Firstborn Son of God?

1. It wasn’t a “characterization”. It was a question.
2. You do not tell me what I mean.

Why teach “man becomes god”, only to revert to “Brothers of the Firstborn Son of God who, by His grace, received His life and nature.” If this is what you mean, why do you teach “man becomes god”, which is heresy.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

1. It wasn’t a “characterization”. It was a question.
2. You do not tell me what I mean.

Why teach “man becomes god”, only to revert to “Brothers of the Firstborn Son of God who, y His grace, received His life and nature.” If this is what you mean, why do you teach “man becomes god”, which is heresy.

Nell

Thanks for the question. The terms are synonymous: A son of God, a brother of the Firstborn, those who have received His life and nature and are growing with the growth of God are becoming God in life and nature.

It would be heresy if what was meant was becoming God in His Godhead or partaking of His incommunicable attributes. Never.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

N,

Those characterizations are blasphemous because you mean God in His Godhead. I wasn’t ambiguous about that. Read what I wrote.

This is absolutely not a blasphemous characterization!

Have you not heard that in multiple locations brothers were seen screaming in the streets, "I am a baby God!"

Your response to Nell is totally disingenuous. Deification implies that we become God. No scripture supports this absurd declaration.

[Nell]

Bringing this burning exchange from days of yore, to the top. #42+

Originally Posted by Nell

Drake,

Are you God? Was Witness Lee God when he died? When does a person ascend to being God? What should we call you?

N

Originally Posted by Drake

N,

Those characterizations are blasphemous because you mean God in His Godhead. I wasn’t ambiguous about that. Read what I wrote.

Rather, you may refer to me as one of the many brothers of the Firstborn Son of God who, by His grace, received His life and nature.

How about you? Have you received God’s life and nature? Are you a brother of the Firstborn Son of God?

Originally Posted by Nell

1. It wasn’t a “characterization”. It was a question.
2. You do not tell me what I mean.

Why teach “man becomes god”, only to revert to “Brothers of the Firstborn Son of God who, by His grace, received His life and nature.” If this is what you mean, why do you teach “man becomes god”, which is heresy.

Nell

[Nell]

Per Zezima’s request, this topic is closed.

Nell
Admin

[UntoHim]

There is actually no controversy over what Witness Lee taught from the very beginning of his "ministry" here in America. (emphasis provided)

“Christ is of two natures, the human and the divine, and we are the same: we are of the human nature, but covered with the divine. He is the God-man, and we are the God-men. He is the ark made of wood covered with gold, and we are the boards made of wood covered with gold. In number we are different, but in nature we are exactly the same.”
The All-Inclusive Christ, p.103

“God can say to His believers, ‘I am divine and human,’ and His believers can reply, ‘Praise You, Lord. You are divine and human, and we are human and divine’.”
The Triune God to Be Life to the Tripartite Man, pp. 51-52

“My burden is to show you clearly that God’s economy and plan is to make Himself man and to make us, His created beings, ‘God,’ so that He is ‘man-ized’ and we are ‘God-ized.’ In the end, He and we, we and He, all become God-men.”
A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing, p. 54
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