What is the point of control? What do they want?

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give?

If you're a long-time lurker then you probably can guess my answer, but I'll make it brief - it's 100% sourced to its native culture. There are control freaks in every culture, but in Asian culture it makes its home with a preconceived disposition as to what's normal, creating the perfect storm. In my old local church 50 years ago it was 80% Caucasian 10% Chinese 10% Hispanic/Black/etc. Now it's 70% Chinese 15% Caucasian 15% other. Reason being is the Chinese cultural expectation is conformity, not individuality. In the West it's different. In the West, the faceless-nameless-group thing is "cultic". And the uniform and uncritical expectation of conformity is the foundation of control. Yet in Asia that's the way the group goes on. Is it coincidence that European Karl Marx' idea of the 'proletariat' only found safe haven in China? I doubt it.

Let me give an example: in both of his sons, Timothy as President of Daystar being funded by church members' life-savings, who then were told to consider it a donation, to Philip repeatedly molesting women serving in LSM offices, with victims and witnesses relocated, there were clear violations of NT principles found in Matthew 18, Titus 1:6 etc etc. Any Western-sourced Church would have blown the lid off such abuses. Even the RCC couldn't eternally hide their predator-priests. Yet in the LC life went on. Why? Because the Chinese culture absorbed it, covered it - it was necessary for the group cohesion. Individuals had to be sacrificed for the "Church", which was nothing but cover for a guanxi network run by a Chinese expatriate.

Similarly, WL saying all local churches must be "absolutely identical" with "no differences whatsoever" in the footnotes to the seven lampstands in Revelations 1 and 2 is biased and self-serving interpretation. Have you ever seen a hand-beaten metal calyx or pomegranate? Are they "absolutely identical"? No - but the Chinese orientation insisted it must be so. The fable that God got "virgin soil" in China is just that - a fable. They're fallen like everyone else. Their trick was to convince others that their culturally-sourced interpretations were spiritual. They weren't and now we see the evident fruit of our unquestioning and uncritical reception of those ideas as though they came from God.

The point of control is to fund the Witness Lee Guanxi Network - I believe that even today his heirs get residual checks in the tens of thousands - and the mirrored point of allowing and fostering such control by group members is group cohesion, the so-called "normal church life" or the "building up of the body of Christ". A control freak meets his willing and expectant audience. This was covered at length in the thread "The Asian Mind/The Western Mind". And I'm not pushing racial or cultural inferiority, either here or AM/WM thread. There are things that work well, that must work well, in a society thousands of years old - look how few died in China during the recent pandemic, for instance. And the "freedoms" and "rugged individualities" of the West have their dark side - civil unrest accompanying BLM protests and recent elections in USA. But the question was on a church that demands absolute conformity, even when there's little if any scriptural basis. I say, it's culturally-based.

[OBW]

aron,

You may be right that so much of what is wrong with the LC and with Nee's and Lee's teachings springs from the culture they grew up with. But does that result in a "self-serving translation"? Or is the translation, while no less erroneous, the result of that culture mixed with negligible true training in the scripture. You may remember that I often said something like "from one accountant to another, Lee should have kept his day job." I don't recall the circumstances, but I believe that Lee once stated that he had been an accountant (maybe briefly) before deciding to go into ministry. And other than essentially taking on Nee as his "rabbi," he never said anything about any actual training.

All this study of the Chinese culture might be useful. But I have always been skeptical that it is the real problem. Just something that should have been like adding Kaopectate to everything. You may not get diarrhea, but everything sure tasted funny.

[Covert]

The LR believes only they can bring back the second of Jesus, by spreading the lords recovery, and the higher gospel (overcomers) throughout the Earth. Anything that attempts to stop this, will be shut down and destroyed in their eyes. They believe they are the recovery, and the only group eligible to be the bride in the book of Revelations. The extreme control of member is due to the insecurity of members spending time away from the group and in their worst fear- finding a different place to worship in Spirit. Its why they isolate and cut themselves off from other Christians and belittle them. Its why they try to cut people off from friends, family, and love ones. Its why they demonize you for having hobbies or activities that away time from LR related things such as meetings, conferences, and trainings. They are struggling to hang on as it is, and every person already in the LR, they want to keep and control like farm animals.

It is complete utter madness, and this delusion that only they can bring back Jesus, is just fueling this day in and day out. Have any questions, feel free to comment and me or any other wonderful person here will be glad to give you feed back. Also as Aaron mentioned, the Chinese culture emphasis does not help at all either.

I recommend some homework, research something called the "Shepherding movement", and upon researching this. You will get a broader perspective on how you and many other churches/groups has suffered under this system. Thank you for your forum participation.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Covert

The LR believes only they can bring back the second of Jesus, by spreading the lords recovery, and the higher gospel (overcomers) throughout the Earth.

I think you are spot on here. There was something else quoted recently (maybe one of the Wednesday quotes) that almost directly stated that God couldn't complete this age without them. Since that makes a statement against the character and power of God (who doesn't need man for anything), it probably stands as a kind of blaspheme.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

I’m curious about your being a “responsible brother”. What do you mean? Are you an elder, or do you mean you are responsible in your practical life, or some such?

Control is about power. To speculate on an answer to your questions about “control”, it’s possible that the leadership is in so deep, with Lee’s teachings, that they can’t back out without “losing face”. They have left themselves no way out. Not even God can stop this train. They are drunk with power, or their strong delusions of power. They are deceived, and with all forms of social media, they are losing control…so they double down and control what they can.

My favorite quote from Lucy in the old Peanuts comic strip is “If you can’t be right, be wrong as loud as you can.” I think there’s a lot of that going on on several levels in the LC. Also, “I’m talking and I can’t shut up.”

Covert may be on to something…they are committed to bringing the Lord back…no pressure there!

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

Welcome to the written part of the forum, Long-with-four-o's time lurker!

I've often wondered the same thing as you - what on earth is the POINT of the control? What do those perpetuating the control get out of it?

One verse that came to mind when reading your question is in Matthew 20, when Jesus tells the disciples that they will not be like those who lord it over others.

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

The rulers of the Gentiles lorded it over them and exercised authority over them. Why? Because they wanted to become great and to be first, or at least feel that way. I don't think it's any different today.

But for me, I think it's ultimately a lack of understanding the gospel. Christ set us free so we would be free. ("It is for freedom that Christ has set us free"). He was very harsh on the leaders who put extra burdens on the people's shoulders, who tied them up and weighed them down, who cared for the tiny gnats and yet let camels pass, who measured out little herbs and yet ignored serious matters of mercy, justice, faithfulness.

"Having a good meeting" is, in my view, an extra burden, a heavy yoke, a tiny gnat that distracts from the things we should care about - the people, not the meetings. You can spend your whole life "having good meetings" but the souls in those meetings are actually miserable and suffering at the same time and when they get home too. It's caring for the whitewashed tomb, and pulling the rug over the decaying bones. As a responsible brother, have you felt that condemnatory weight upon you when a meeting didn't go "well"? That condemnation is utterly futile. It's a condemnation not from God.

Does "building up the church" mean "having a good meeting"? Nope. The church is the people. So it's the people who need to be built up, encouraged, edified, noticed, inquired after, served, helped, assisted, listened to, understood, cared for, etc. Caring for the meetings sounds like it's caring for the people, but it's not. It's a notch or two off......enough to lead astray, but small enough to be hard to detect.

This type of control is actually a prop for the insecure. Secure people, those who understand they are sinners accepted by God not because of anything they've done to earn it, those who trust in the righteousness, mercy, and love of God, those who understand that a good or a failed meeting doesn't make God love or accept them any more or any less, don't need to control in this way. People like to control, or like "good meetings" because it's an outward clue that tells them they are doing the right thing, or that they are "running the church well". People also like unnecessary rules they can wield to condemn others because it makes them feel like they are in the exclusive, elite "at least I'm not like that guy" club. There's all kinds of reasons, but I think neglecting the gospel is a big part of it. There's a reason Paul and the others kept harping on the new church not to forget what they've been taught, not to deviate, not to stray from the sound teaching.

Trapped

[Covert]

This a post from a long time forum contributor Ohio, in this post, Ohio gives insight onto the insecurity and hyper control of meetings regarding Witness Lee ministry. I laughed in the last portion of this post regarding the hatred of the pure word by LR members, clearly exposes the "Sa***** corruption in this new religious movement.

Originally Posted by TheGodMen

The Local Church mentality evidently has no difficulty in accomodating contradiction in a variety of forms.... For example, Witness Lee says that "doctrine only works divisions among the Lord's children" and "the more we talk about doctrines, the more we will quarrel". (WL The Economy of God, pg 23). At the same time, he not only teaches but insists upon certain doctrines (such as "mingling" and "local ground") in a way that leads him to reject fellowship with every major Christian body in the world.

Originally Posted by Ohio

NFNL, I know you were not in the LC's when I was, but let me mention one of Lee's starkest contradictions alluded to by this paragraph above.

I entered the LC's in the mid-70's. One strong theme then present was our need to "return to the pure word of God." This abounded in Lee's ministry, the local ministries, and daily conversation. Since I was raised in Catholicism, this was especially attractive to me. (Remember I was the altar boy who knew the mass in both Latin and English.) I was thoroughly convinced at the time that Lee and his ministry were entirely devoted to God's pure word. One statement that stood out, loud and clear, was Lee's repeated saying that "we don't need systematic theology, we just need the pure word of God!"

Fast forward 20 years to the "high peak" era, after the "Ingalls rebellion."

I was slowly beginning to realize that all we had by then was "systematic theology." God's economy and high peak theology must abound in every message, song, and meeting or we may get reported to headquarters. I remember one Sunday meeting when the elders were gone and I was left responsible for the meeting. We had a brother visit us from Southern Florida who stood up during our prophesying time and started out, "I don't know if you use the Holy Word for Morning Revival ..." Immediately I jumped up and declared, "Yes we do, we use HWFMR all the time." I didn't think twice before saying this. Who knows what kind of rumors would have started about us!

It had actually become dangerous to only use the Bible, even if it was the Recovery version. What had happened to us? All we had was systematic theology! How far had we fallen! The Bible had become a dangerous book in the hands of common saints. It must be properly interpreted! It must be accompanied by the ministry! I remember talking to an in-law of mine during the recent quarantine who also was from Florida. He told me succinctly that "coming back to the pure word of God" was nothing more than a "tactic of the enemy." He then related how Bill Mallon attempted the same strategy during the last rebellion.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

I’d suggest reading Steve Hassan’s book, “Combatting Cult Mind Control.” If they didn’t use the tactics listed in the book, at this point- they would lose control, power, and (most importantly) money. All high control/authoritarian groups use unethical influence techniques. I have no idea how they justify it with holy language. If cults do these things, don’t do them if you claim you’re not a cult!

I'm still in the church and we are in the middle of a training. It seems the coworkers share the same messages. Ed Marks shared about having to being broken and experiencing the lesson of the cross. The natural man having to be broken. Said God will put you in situations to where you are utter helpless and can only cry out and depend on Him to gain Him. To the point of utter despair.

And again they don't forget the rebellions. Ed shared and said that a coworker who rebelled and left did so because his natural man was never broken. Your thoughts? Even though I have heard this many times.

[Ohio]

Sounds like a message to drug addicts and alcoholics, telling them how they need to hit “rock bottom” and cry out to their higher power before they can be delivered from their addictions. To them “broken” means utterly dependent and obedient to the mandates of some LaPalma Avenue book publisher.

[Zezima]

What Bible references do they use to back up this point?

I can’t recall Paul ever telling us our natural man needs to be broken. We are saved by Grace through faith.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

What Bible references do they use to back up this point?

I can’t recall Paul ever telling us our natural man needs to be broken. We are saved by Grace through faith.

Here's a short excerpt from Nee from "The Breaking of the Outer Man and the Release of the Spirit""

Romans 7:22 says, "For I delight in the law of God according to the inner man." Our inner man delights in the law of God. Ephesians 3:16 also tells us "to be strengthened with power through His Spirit into the inner man." In 2 Corinthians 4:16 Paul also said, "Though our outer man is decaying, yet our inner man is being renewed day by day." The Bible divides our being into the outer man and the inner man. God resides in the inner man, and the man outside this God-occupied inner man is the outer man. In other words, our spirit is the inner man, while the person that others contact is the outer man. Our inner man puts on our outer man like a garment. God has placed Himself, His Spirit, His life, and His power in us, that is, in our inner man. Outside of our inner man is our mind, emotion, and will. Outside of all these is our body, our flesh.

But Romans 7:22 is followed up by Paul exclaiming "who will rescue me from this body of death?" Ephesians 3:16 simply speaks of an inner man or inner being, but carries no indication of it needed to be "released" via the "breaking of the outer man". And 2 Corinthians 4:16 is, I think, clearly speaking of our physical body decaying.

Most commentaries simply conclude "body and soul" by "outer/inner". Nee and Lee conclude outer = body and soul, and inner = spirit. The verses, however, don't support that. Our body is decaying; our soul is not.

I think Nee once again just needlessly divided up a human being into parts that don't exist........so they could be condemned and crushed even more.

This is partly why the FTTA exists - to "break the outer man".....meaning, to crush the soul through countless deadlines they have to meet during the day, unnecessarily strict cleaning regulations, and punishments for things that are not sins or anywhere near them.

Control gives people a feeling of power and authority and superiority. As base as it is, the desire for this feeling is one of the main causes of all this destruction caused by the LC. Power and control is "lording it over", which Jesus said is not to be done by His disciples.

Outside this forum I am also hearing reports of what is being spoken at the semi-annual trainings. I am sad for all the people trapped there having their reality shaped by lies.

Trapped

The message also covered spiritual principles, life lessons and holy warnings. Talked about God's sovereignty and governmental righteousness by not submitting, disobedience, rebellining and not denying the self which is a great sin. This then brings in His punishing judgement according to God's governmental righteousness. God is loving and merciful but disciplines and chastises. And this should be a warning to us they believe. Ed Marks was using the examples of Saul and David.

But in a earlier message Minoru Chen said death is even worse than sin.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The message also covered spiritual principles, life lessons and holy warnings. Talked about God's sovereignty and governmental righteousness by not submitting, disobedience, rebellining and not denying the self which is a great sin. This then brings in His punishing judgement according to God's governmental righteousness. God is loving and merciful but disciplines and chastises. And this should be a warning to us they believe. Ed Marks was using the examples of Saul and David.

But in a earlier message Minoru Chen said death is even worse than sin.

Unregistered, thank you for giving us a further glimpse of what is being spoken.

Are you the same unregistered who has posted 4-5 posts on a few threads the past day or two?

Unregistered, I hope you know that this kind of speaking from a church is one of the characteristics found in what are called "abusive churches". Abusive churches often use Old Testament stories to rail and threaten and oppress. I mean.....look at all the words you used to describe their speaking in just this short paragraph:

warning, governmental (I know the co-workers throw a lot of threatening weight behind that word), submission, disobedience, rebellion, deny the self, sin, punishment, judgement, discipline, chastise, warning, death.

Do you feel edified or built up or encouraged or at peace or even......safe in God's hands hearing that?

The Bible tells us that Christ died to set us free so we would be free. That God loves us so much that He gave up His only Son to save us! That death no longer has it's sting, and that we are not to fear death because the One who saves our soul will not let us go. That He made us individual and unique members in a body and gave us specific gifts to be used according to His granting. That we were made for good works and to love people. Christ came to save sinners, not to condemn them. God loved us WHILE WE WERE SINNERS, and He doesn't love us any less after salvation, either. Yes, He disciplines His children like any father does, but the ratio of discipline and condemnation in the local church is grossly lopsided compared to the emphasis of it in Scripture.

Death, unregistered, is actually from God. God is the one who punishes us with death for our sins. This is a huge upside down teaching in the local church, which teaches that death is of Satan and of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. But the Biblical record is that "the wages of sin is death" - in other words, death is our wages, our payment, what we earned because we sin. But God doesn't want anyone to perish, so He sent His Son to save us. This is where death comes from (punishment for our sins), and as children of God who believe in the Savior, we should be free of the fear of death. As you sit in those training meetings, I hope you would not let the fear and condemnation and "death threats" affect you. There are many healthier places out there. We are here if you ever want to talk more about how you are doing in the local church.

Trapped

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm still in the church and we are in the middle of a training. It seems the coworkers share the same messages. Ed Marks shared about having to being broken and experiencing the lesson of the cross. The natural man having to be broken. Said God will put you in situations to where you are utter helpless and can only cry out and depend on Him to gain Him. To the point of utter despair.

And again they don't forget the rebellions. Ed shared and said that a coworker who rebelled and left did so because his natural man was never broken. Your thoughts? Even though I have heard this many times.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sounds like a message to drug addicts and alcoholics, telling them how they need to hit “rock bottom” and cry out to their higher power before they can be delivered from their addictions. To them “broken” means utterly dependent and obedient to the mandates of some LaPalma Avenue book publisher.

The idea of breaking of the “natural man”, is totally a foreign Biblical concept. It’s has no foundation on/in the Word of God. The ministry of Jesus Christ while he was in the world, was to fulfill the law, and to bring in the redemption to man. His perfect human life, is imputed to us or given to us as a gift of salvation. We as born again believers, are instructed to put to death the WORKS OF THE FLESH, deal with the desires of the flesh, and not to be destroying our human nature which was created in the image of God. Satan, just loves to see people focused on destroying the image of God, rather than one is dealing with the works of the flesh. Although subtle, but deadly difference, that I believe is plaguing the teachings and the instructions to people today. It’s all stems and roots in the foundational believes that man will become god, just not in the godhead, which is a total lie and deception.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm still in the church and we are in the middle of a training. It seems the coworkers share the same messages. Ed Marks shared about having to being broken and experiencing the lesson of the cross. The natural man having to be broken. Said God will put you in situations to where you are utter helpless and can only cry out and depend on Him to gain Him. To the point of utter despair.

And again they don't forget the rebellions. Ed shared and said that a coworker who rebelled and left did so because his natural man was never broken. Your thoughts? Even though I have heard this many times.

This kind of statement by Ed Marks about a co-worker is what is known as an "ad hominem attack". It just disparages the person with unverifiable claims. Like Jo Casteel was labelled "rebellious" or "leprous". These are fear-based words designed to make people turn away from the "unwanted" or "diseased" member in order to distract from the truth of the things she was saying. This is a well-worn tactic in abusive churches.

Unregistered, I would strongly encourage you to get the following two books:

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnsen and VanVonderen
Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue

Trapped

Thanks for your reply. Most older saints, the Chinese just listen to the messages and let it go over their head. The older Caucasian brothers and Chinese elders and coworkers take it serious . And push it on the young working saints and their locality.

The coworkers said we need to be broken down completely to concecrate ourselves. That God wants nothing natural good or bad. Only Christ in you. That you need to be in prisioned in Him. But also being His reproduction in life and natural. But then God is always searching and judging you.

But, before you are broken down you have to realize that you're nothing and can do nothing. When you're in the stage of transformation if you keep anything you will be punished and suffer God's judgement for rebellion and disobedience. The coworkers believe if you have a problem the problem is with you. Because you're not enjoying God, in the self, mind, flesh and refuse to be broken and balanced my another saint or deputy authority.

Sorry so much but I have a good memory and want to get this out there. Beyond just the teachings I want to ask about real life situations.

Ron recently shared. And there is a feeling about the young people mainly about the young working saints that you're mentally ill and short of demon possessed. Ron said that saints need take medicine before he will fellowship with them because it's bio chemical. But Brother Lee said you just need Jesus.

On the matter of divorce how come elders say when a sister comes with the problem they're not the ones under the headship of Christ. I know of situations where elders have lectured and wrote letters to wives. Some sisters were so messed up they actually attacked the leading brothers physically. If the wives can't take it the elders or leading ones say because it's not cheating and fornication they can only seperate. I know some, they're no longer in the church who considered suicide.

And this last thing which you will find odd and interesting. At building 8 during the construction there was a full time sister who was the safety officer. Building 8 is the new conference center. I volunteered down there once. As I was coming back from lunch she pointed and screamed at me from afar. I stopped and she caught up to me. She pointed at the ground and said if you hit that you're in big trouble and will cost us alot of money. It was a large extension cord which I already knew about.

While I was there a new brother volunteered. Within hours she noticed and ambushed him. The brother was casually coming back from lunch and she got in his face like a military drill Sargent. One last thing. Which I couldn't believe. A brother came to the job site with no steel toe boots on. He was in shorts too. The brothers and sisters were talking about how the sister safety officer would lose it. She ambushed this brother and made him get on his knees and apologize several times in front of her. Saints were coming and going on the job site that he would never break the rules again.

She was a ftta grad and went full time. So how could she then have the headship. Brothers tried to tame her but she wouldn't listen and they were afraid of her.

I also met Minoru Chen once. I rode in the Bfa van before and took it to a city where he was holding a mini conference. One of the brothers I rode with knew him well. During lunch he introduced me to Minoru. Minoru just said hi and then excused himself to pray with the leading brothers of that locality for his message that night. I spent 3 days driving cross country. In the van I joked why minoru wasn't in the van. And, instead flying. The brother said minoru's time is much important than ours. Like 10 times more. I have also talked to some fulltimers who have reached out to coworkers for fellowship but we're ignored and not given the time of day.

One last thing. Minoru told us young working saints to make less money and have a simple life to give more time to God and gain Him. How does this work when Minoru is a multi millionaire and his cousin Ronnie Chen is a Billionaire? The saying is God only allows some saints that are humble about their money to become successful.

Thanks for the fellowship.

[Robert]

I would like to answer with question.
Who was guilty? Moses, Aaron or nation ?
Ex 32:1
And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him.

Who forced me to join this group of believers?
Who forced me o read only their books?
Who can stop me from searching for Lord in my prayer or Bible reading?
Actually I work on small project- analysis of Faith Movement. Money,manipulation and mind control.
I see halls filled with believers. Why hey came there? What they are looking for? One thing among few is ( no time to put here everything) COMFORT.
I really have no time to explain how it works. But as long there is public, there will be leader.
That is why little by little saint fall in sleep after years.
The same topics all the time!
First of all Bible schools are not biblical.
For second, Church is not about knowledge but about daily simply life in faith and trust to Lord.
And for last: in our evil nature, always will be tendency to rule over somebody.
Jesus was teaching about it. So if there is no spiritual growth, there will be fruit of flesh and sinful nature.
All we hae individual resposibility before God for our words and actions.
This is what means to be mature son and servant to take responsibility for our own part in Christ's Body.
Head is full of thoughts.
For now that is it.
Tricks or not, deception or not, what can I do, if I alarm saints about wrong things, but they do not listen?
Just prayer. We and they belong to Lord.
May Lord have mercy on all of us.
edit:
COMFORT- knowing this or that. The more we know, more we feel stable. More stable, more comfortable. More comfortable, less watching.
So they sell good product.
Just consider what I say this way: Who is more shaking You and awaking? WL or Paul Washer or David Wilkerson? Which Jesus from those two preached is more wanted? Which preaching is causing us prayer with respect, godliness and healthy fear of God?

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I also met Minoru Chen once. I rode in the Bfa van before and took it to a city where he was holding a mini conference. One of the brothers I rode with knew him well. During lunch he introduced me to Minoru. Minoru just said hi and then excused himself to pray with the leading brothers of that locality for his message that night. I spent 3 days driving cross country. In the van I joked why minoru wasn't in the van. And, instead flying. The brother said minoru's time is much important than ours. Like 10 times more. I have also talked to some fulltimers who have reached out to coworkers for fellowship but we're ignored and not given the time of day.

One last thing. Minoru told us young working saints to make less money and have a simple life to give more time to God and gain Him. How does this work when Minoru is a multi millionaire and his cousin Ronnie Chen is a Billionaire? The saying is God only allows some saints that are humble about their money to become successful.

Thanks for the fellowship.

I am so sorry for no verses this time

Quote by Roxanne Bland

Forget what they told you. You want the truth, follow the money.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

IMHO

Vanity.
Peeps like to feed their vanity.
Slaves to sin....slaves to vanity.

James 4:10
“Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

King James Version (KJV)

Peace like a river...

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by mannaman

IMHO

Vanity.
Peeps like to feed their vanity.
Slaves to sin....slaves to vanity.

James 4:10
“Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.”

King James Version (KJV)

Peace like a river...

Twas me...didn't realize I was signed out...

[UntoHim]

Good to hear from you manna-man! Don't make yourself so scarce my brother.
-

[manna-man]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Good to hear from you manna-man! Don't make yourself so scarce my brother.
-

Will do brother UntoHim....I will try to become lurkless.😄

[Paul Vusik]

I wasn’t sure in which thread to post this, so I think that this one very much fits the subject matter.

I was doing some writing this week, in relation to the aspects of “Life”. It was a good experience in the sense of what people mean as being alive or enjoying life. One of the aspects that’s I remembered and made me think of making this post is from my experience last year.
My father passed away last February. He was only 64 years old. He started to experience some pain and fever the summer before, and went to the hospital to get it checked up, and was told based on his “symptoms “ he has covid, so he should go home and just stay isolated for 14 days. No further check ups, nothing!
After a month passed, the “symptoms “ didn’t go away, and the doctors didn’t want to give him appointment for further evaluations, until late November.
As all the tests were taken, and the results came in, he was told “ you have stage 4 cancer, there is nothing we can do for you, go home and you have couple of months to live”
I’m sharing this, because I remember it like it was yesterday, when I was in the hospital when he was still “alive”, or considered to be “alive”, even though he was just living because he was hooked up to the ventilator. The nurse said to me the following, “we can keep him alive as long as we want, we control his oxygen intake, we feed him through the IV, we give him the necessary drugs to subdue him, he can’t do nothing on his own!”
I remember thinking, is this still considered a person to be alive? If he can’t absolutely do nothing on his own? Everything is controlled by some man that does and takes away as they see fit? It’s not really life, it’s a form of existence!
As I take that experience and think of my days in recovery, I think of the same thing. Everyone is hooked up to the ventilator, subdued, not asking questions, can’t really function on their own, unless some man puts in some droplets of nutrients in ones IV and adjust the oxygen level to make sure you don’t completely sink into a coma. You are always dependent on some “wise man”, “master operator”, who knows better that you, and for that matter better than everyone else around you on what you need. That can go on forever, as long as one is willfully, ignorantly, subjects himself to that kind of LIFE.
It’s only when God rip off all the connections, all the hookups and operating equipment of you, cuts all the cords, by His mercy and grace, you get out of that bed, and stand on your own two feet! You take a deep breath of air into your lungs, and start seeing the light outside of that hospital room, you realize that there is real LIFE, and He is the Master and the builder of it! He nurtures you, He takes care of you, and going back into that hospital room is not even a possibility under the most dire of circumstances!
That what’s called “LIVE and LIVING” really is. Rather than total and utter control of persons existence and well-being!

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi everyone, loooong time lurker. First time poster. I will create an account eventually, just need more time. I’ll share my testimony as well one day.

When I keep reading about “mind control” and “brainwashing” and “cult tactics” and elders needing to meddle in the saints lives, Something that always nags me is the end result, why do they want this much control? What benefit does it give? Why would they waste so much of their time with meddling and harping on going to the meetings, going to the meetings. Etc. Maybe I have a screw loose but I just don’t know why anyone would want to be like this. Why CAN’T we just have meetings to enjoy and be there. I’m a “responsible brother” and every meeting I’m in, it’s expected to go a certain way or else it’s a failure. Why is this?

It’s part of the overall tactic of undue influence. Cults aren’t bad by definition. Cults that practice undue influence will rob peoples cognitive abilities. This gives the leaders more money, free labor, marketing, and less accountability. It’s called a high control group for a reason. I’d highly recommend looking in the work of Steve Hassan and his BITE model for evaluating groups.

Why do they want control? In the past few trainings and conferences the speaker have been saying don't do this or that. And use stories from the Bible to scare and warn you.

Another thing is that alot of saints, and the ministry preaches that you're heavenly, chosen and priestly people. So you should separate and cut most things off. I don't need to go into detail as many have heard it before.

I believe that we are becoming God in life and nature. But the question is, is that memorizing the complete bible along with the ministry?

[Bible-believer]

2Pet. 2:1-3 KJV

1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Acts 2:44-45
44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.


When reading the book of Acts this morning, 2:44-46 came to me, then I recalled your post "point of control, what do they want?"
It's religious Communism. I heard of this "term" long before but never linked it to LSM. But just now, I was thinking if Lee adopted what he experienced in China Communism.

Just an FYI, for all that post here. The LSM has updated their online publications website, which as of today will require a SUBSCRIPTION to access the full version of all books and publications. So website like this, that has links to quotes, will no longer function. Please be aware of this.

They might have a special coming up on 4th of July weekend, so be on the look out to get in cheap while you can.

[UntoHim]

In the United States, copyright rights are limited by the doctrine of "Fair Use,"
under which certain uses of copyrighted material for, but not limited to,
criticism, commentary, news reporting,
teaching, scholarship, or research may be considered fair.
~
https://support.google.com/legal/answer/4558992?hl=en

-
-

If LSM wants to limit the ability of the public to link quotes,
then that is THEIR PROBLEM, THE ONUS IS ON THEM.
LSM has absolutely no control or authority
to limit or regulate the terms of Fair Use.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Buyer beware!

Just an FYI, for all that post here. The LSM has updated their online publications website, which as of today will require a SUBSCRIPTION to access the full version of all books and publications. So website like this, that has links to quotes, will no longer function. Please be aware of this.

They might have a special coming up on 4th of July weekend, so be on the look out to get in cheap while you can.

Looks like you can access the life study’s still.

Interesting development, I wonder why they no longer will provide it for free.

Originally Posted by Buyer beware!

Just an FYI, for all that post here. The LSM has updated their online publications website, which as of today will require a SUBSCRIPTION to access the full version of all books and publications. So website like this, that has links to quotes, will no longer function. Please be aware of this.

They might have a special coming up on 4th of July weekend, so be on the look out to get in cheap while you can.

Wow, Wow, Wow!!!

How interesting is this development. How can we be The Gods Expression on earth by these kind of behavior?

I went to the site just to see it for myself, and noticed this note on the bottom of the page:

“Note: We hope that many will benefit from these spiritual riches. However, for the sake of avoiding confusion, we ask that none of these materials be downloaded or copied and republished elsewhere, electronically or otherwise. Living Stream Ministry retains full copyright on all these materials and hopes that our visitors will respect this.”

Avoiding confusion? I thought that we are a part of the most clear visions and revelations on this planet earth? How can many benefit from this? Jesus gave spiritual riches at no cost, and we are doing this? I smell a rat.

Someone must of hacked their servers and did this, because I can no longer process this kind of cruelty by the Almighty God. I cannot believe myself that I fell for this, what a miserable situation. Should have listened to my mother that always said, “by their fruits you will know them”. That rings oh so true in this very instance.

[I tell the truth]

You can't even do group texts anymore when sending ministry. Well you can but they say your conscience will convict you. So you need to text each person individually. Our region received a email from LSM. And we had a regional discussion.

[Trapped]

Buyer beware! - thanks for swinging by and letting us know. I'm rolling my eyes about it but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Zezima - the reason they are not providing it for free is.....money, money, money, money. When the only source of your merchandise died 25 years ago, and you have a stagnant pool of adherents, and you label and condemn everyone else who might join, there are a shrinking number of ways for them to continue to profit off of it!

At a minimum they just got guaranteed that all localities will create an account. Instant, recurring money. Then many saints will have to create an account so they can print off copies of excerpts for their home meetings so they don't have to make new ones buy the ministry they are reading that week, etc... And many other saints will make an account because it's LSM and that's just what they do - whatever LSM says. One of the last redeeming actions of LSM (providing something for free, even if it is poison) just got monetized.

I tell the truth - I have noticed that when saints post ministry excerpts on Facebook, this is a little tongue in cheek, but it's like the citation is almost as long as the excerpt. Like name, publisher, address, year, title, location, website, etc..... I simply get the impression that they are scared to do otherwise. Pretty sad.

Is there any way for you to post/attach the email from LSM you referenced without it identifying you in any way? No pressure if not.

Trapped

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Buyer beware! - thanks for swinging by and letting us know. I'm rolling my eyes about it but I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Zezima - the reason they are not providing it for free is.....money, money, money, money. When the only source of your merchandise died 25 years ago, and you have a stagnant pool of adherents, and you label and condemn everyone else who might join, there are a shrinking number of ways for them to continue to profit off of it!

At a minimum they just got guaranteed that all localities will create an account. Instant, recurring money. Then many saints will have to create an account so they can print off copies of excerpts for their home meetings so they don't have to make new ones buy the ministry they are reading that week, etc... And many other saints will make an account because it's LSM and that's just what they do - whatever LSM says. One of the last redeeming actions of LSM (providing something for free, even if it is poison) just got monetized.

$8 a month or $80 a year, not a lot of revenue to be had. It’s an interesting move no doubt. It’s like when they added that giant 30 foot tv advertising ministry books at the conference center in anaheim.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Zezima

$8 a month or $80 a year, not a lot of revenue to be had. It’s an interesting move no doubt. It’s like when they added that giant 30 foot tv advertising ministry books at the conference center in anaheim.

I believe there are at least 1,500 localities around the world....I think? $96*1,500 = ~$150,000. If you assume at least 5 saints from each locality get it on top of that, on average, that's over $750,000 in addition. They'll probably get around $1 million per year from it, is my guess.

I'm presuming this isn't some massively profitable venture, but just whatever they can do to offset what are probably waning book sales. They've backed themselves into a corner with only one finite pool to draw from......

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I believe there are at least 1,500 localities around the world....I think? $96*1,500 = ~$150,000. If you assume at least 5 saints from each locality get it on top of that, on average, that's over $750,000 in addition. They'll probably get around $1 million per year from it, is my guess.

I'm presuming this isn't some massively profitable venture, but just whatever they can do to offset what are probably waning book sales. They've backed themselves into a corner with only one finite pool to draw from......

My wishful thinking is that they are trying to lockdown the outflow of their content.. seeking more control because people are waking up to their nonsense.. but most likely an odd money grab.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

$8 a month or $80 a year, not a lot of revenue to be had. It’s an interesting move no doubt. It’s like when they added that giant 30 foot tv advertising ministry books at the conference center in anaheim.

30 foot TV at their $30 million LaPalma Campus? And to think of all the $$ I gave them over the years. This is not a “ministry” but just peddling the word of God for base gain. Took all my money and then quarantined me for complaining about it.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Ohio

30 foot TV at their $30 million LaPalma Campus?

Yeah, before a training message and in between, they have it turned on displaying ads for different books.

[I tell the truth]

Only the coworkers and elders got the email. Then we had a discussion after one of the conferences regarding it. I think either a few saints told on other saints to lsm. Or those saints went to LSM and asked. Regardless, they were I guess admonished. And, they then told saints that they kept repenting to God.

Messed up situation if you ask. Who really cares about the copyright in this situation.

[I tell the truth]

Ok. Sorry for the delay in the updates of the training. It's been a lot of the same that we have heard for years, not matter what the book. WL has been called the minister of the age and this ministry the one of the age. Ron said if you come in from Christianity and have had some kind of position the leaven has to be purged. We can't forget about mentioning of the natural man and flesh. Minoru said everything of your old man is utterly useless and will be rejected by the church if you attempt to keep it.

Once again the local localities have been mentioned as the only churches and the expression and enlargement. I don't need to mention everything many of you have all heard it. As always a few corny jokes. Ron said that Moses was God's expression and the acting God. And that he had a 80 year term of the FTTA. James said that Jesus trained His disciples for 40 days and that we should instead now make trainings 40 days.


The training is on Kings so there is a lot of talk of being dealt with, trained, transformed and becoming a army. Alot of talk of how you are like unbelievers and Christians but different. That you can have a family, job, etc. But not other things and don't love your family or job more than Christ and the Church.

Also, you can't forget that every speaker has to mention a WL or WN story each message.

I had to add something after tonight's message. The message was on grafting. I wanted to ask all of you if God gives us freewill, then why does the recovery focus so much on God being out life and strongly influencing on choice? Ricky said that we need to listen to the Spirit and most of what He tells us is no. No to our phone, no to what we are about to say and no to what we are about to do. Also that we are constantly under God's judgement. And that we are also under self judgement as we Amen God's judgement. Further, if we are asked to serve or if we want to serve we need to see we are unable and unworthy.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

Ok. Sorry for the delay in the updates of the training. It's been a lot of the same that we have heard for years, not matter what the book. WL has been called the minister of the age and this ministry the one of the age. Ron said if you come in from Christianity and have had some kind of position the leaven has to be purged. We can't forget about mentioning of the natural man and flesh. Minoru said everything of your old man is utterly useless and will be rejected by the church if you attempt to keep it.

Once again the local localities have been mentioned as the only churches and the expression and enlargement. I don't need to mention everything many of you have all heard it. As always a few corny jokes. Ron said that Moses was God's expression and the acting God. And that he had a 80 year term of the FTTA. James said that Jesus trained His disciples for 40 days and that we should instead now make trainings 40 days.

The training is on Kings so there is a lot of talk of being dealt with, trained, transformed and becoming a army. Alot of talk of how you are like unbelievers and Christians but different. That you can have a family, job, etc. But not other things and don't love your family or job more than Christ and the Church.

Also, you can't forget that every speaker has to mention a WL or WN story each message.

I had to add something after tonight's message. The message was on grafting. I wanted to ask all of you if God gives us freewill, then why does the recovery focus so much on God being out life and strongly influencing on choice? Ricky said that we need to listen to the Spirit and most of what He tells us is no. No to our phone, no to what we are about to say and no to what we are about to do. Also that we are constantly under God's judgement. And that we are also under self judgement as we Amen God's judgement. Further, if we are asked to serve or if we want to serve we need to see we are unable and unworthy.

I tell the truth,

Thanks once again for your helpful update of what's being spoken at the training.

Regarding your question you added to your post about free will and God's influence, if you read the first few chapters in Genesis (not the ministry, but the actual Bible), you'll see that God put the first man in the garden and.......gave him a WHOLE LOT of choices. Meaning, a lot of things he was free to choose from. God made a big garden and filled it with a variety of trees, and told Adam he was "free to eat" of every single tree except for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

God has given man much more freedom and free will to choose and enjoy good things than the ministry will ever present to you. Instead, the ministry labels all those good things as bad, death, rebellious, etc., thus making their own little group the only acceptable thing left.

So in much of our lives, we are given the freedom to make our own responsible choices and then accept the consequences of those choices. Of course we have the Bible as guideposts, and I would also agree with Ricky that the Holy Spirit is our guide too. I would also personally agree with Ricky that often what we hear is "no". This doesn't mean we never get a "yes". What this means is that we may have many pathways as options, all of which are good, okay, and acceptable, and we have the freedom to choose, AND to be perfectly honest, we might not get some kind of "internal registration" about that. In other words, we don't get some audible "yes", some visible green light, some clouds parting showing us the way. We have free will to choose how we see fit. But what we DO hear sometimes, are the no's, the red lights, the darkening skies.

Do you get the difference? In the Recovery, it's like a "no" means "no", but "nothing" also means "no". And then this produces scenarios where you cannot do anything unless you specifically get a "yes" or "a leading" or "a shining" or "the peace"......when that doesn't typically happen for most things. The reality is "nothing" simply means you have not gotten a "no" and you should feel free in Christ to continue on until you get a "no", if you even ever get a "no". The former is paralyzing via anxiety, the latter can, ironically, be paralyzing in it's freedom. But it's a freedom in Christ.

Like in the local church, everything is a red light unless you get explicit green from God. But God has actually pre-given us many, many green lights, and we can continue on freely until we get a red. Two fundamentally different environments. And we already know ahead of time what many of the "reds" are - anything contrary to His commandments in the Bible.

Others may disagree with me on this, and I won't be bothered by their disagreement. I am sure that there are plenty of believers who have gotten some "yes" or "peace" or "leading". I think all I'm trying to say is we don't have to explicitly get a green every time we take a step in order to be able to take that step.

I also do not agree with this "we are unable" business. Of course, God created everything and gave us all our competencies and abilities and gifts and talents. But it's a disservice to these abilities and gifts God has given us to consider that we are "unable". Of course we are able - God has made us able! It's like the local church wants to keep people immature, underdeveloped, incompetent, and useless, while God wants mature, sober-minded people who will use and develop what God has graciously given them. It's a radical difference between the two. We can be able and still recognize that it is God who gave us the ability and point to Him as the source of the abilities He has given us.

Any child who grows up and becomes an adult while still unable to take any steps without getting explicit permission from their parents, or that considers him/herself to be "unable" to do things is a useless adult. The same goes for us and God. The local church tends to lump different kinds of "independences" together, conflating the two. Being a mature adult able to discern consequences and able to make good choices does NOT mean you are independent from God in the sense of being rebellious and turning your back on God. We are to grow up in Christ! But of course we always know that all things came from God and we exist for God, and that all things came through Jesus, and we live through Jesus (1 Cor. 8:6).

It's interesting, that chapter in 1 Corinthians 8 starts out speaking that way - that we exist for God and we live through Christ.....I mean, you can't get much more dependent than that.....but then the chapter goes on to describe mature believers who possess knowledge that allows them to not be stumbled by trivial things such as idols. See how you can be mature and steadfast and have knowledge that allows you to discern and not be stumbled, and yet none of that means you are "acting independently" from God? The local church somehow keeps people in a state of immaturity.

Anyway, all that was kind of all over the place. Hopefully at least a sliver of it helped somewhere.

Trapped

[Nell]

Originally Posted by I tell the truth

... I wanted to ask all of you if God gives us freewill, then why does the recovery focus so much on God being out life and strongly influencing on choice? Ricky said that we need to listen to the Spirit and most of what He tells us is no. No to our phone, no to what we are about to say and no to what we are about to do. Also that we are constantly under God's judgement. And that we are also under self judgement as we Amen God's judgement. Further, if we are asked to serve or if we want to serve we need to see we are unable and unworthy.

I read a quote awhile back that said something like "The way to tell how great a leader is, is to see how much freedom he gives to those who follow him." I can't remember who said it, but it makes a lot of sense.Contrast our great God with Witness Lee and those in leadership in the Local Churches. Compare with an "arranged marriage" vs. a couple who mutually choose to marry each other out of love, respect, honor, etc.

The Local Church focuses on its practice of revoking the freewill which was given to us by God and calling it "recovery". How is overruling what God freely gave us "recovery", much less the "Lord's recovery"?

This revoking of the freewill of man is the only means possible for the Local Church leadership to control its membership. The Local Church leadership doesn't teach listening to the Holy Spirit. It teaches "listen to me/Lee" and I'll tell you what the Holy Spirit is, or isn't, saying. Trapped is right. The Local Church teachings insure that you never mature in Christ. When I was "there", I found it much easier and simpler to follow the Lord than to follow the elders in the Local Church.

Nell

What is the reason to control? What is gained by these elders and leaders?
Do they gain more $$? Do they buy mansions with all their deceitfully earned $$?
NO. Nothing is really gained. That is why accusations of control among the blended brothers, or elders, or some full-time serving ones is from the pits of hell. The accuser of the brethren labors with those who are evil, hate Witness Lee and the local churches to belittle and put them down due to their dislike. Don't you think some of the blended brothers can have their own ministry, write books using scripture, and could have a large following?? Of course they can write their own publications and gain a large following. But they choose to "be small", take the cross and endeavor to be the "testimony of Jesus". We are not the only church, but we are only the church!!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What is the reason to control? What is gained by these elders and leaders?
Do they gain more $$? Do they buy mansions with all their deceitfully earned $$?
NO. Nothing is really gained. That is why accusations of control among the blended brothers, or elders, or some full-time serving ones is from the pits of hell. The accuser of the brethren labors with those who are evil, hate Witness Lee and the local churches to belittle and put them down due to their dislike. Don't you think some of the blended brothers can have their own ministry, write books using scripture, and could have a large following?? Of course they can write their own publications and gain a large following. But they choose to "be small", take the cross and endeavor to be the "testimony of Jesus". We are not the only church, but we are only the church!!

Unregistered poster--
If you plan to continue to post on the forum, to avoid guessing if 2 "unregistered" posts are from the same person (the combative tone is a big clue!), we ask that you register for forum membership. Please send an email to Reg4LCD@gmail.com and with your request, include your desired username.
BTW I deleted your 2nd post in response to Ohio. Please see the Forum Mission Statement and Rules.
--Thanks

Just to clarify...there is only one church. We (including you) are part of it. We are all members of HIS church which HE will build...if we will only get out of His way. Also, we are your brothers and sisters in Christ. We are His testimony. We are witnesses to the conduct of the Local Church leadership. We surely know what we are talking about...first hand.

Like you, we wondered for years (many still wonder), what does the "eldership" gain from their control over us? Some of us suffered untold damage, upheaval, pain, disappointment and...control.. from the Local Church leadership. Our walk with the Lord was usurped. Many have not yet recovered from their experiences of walking with the "elders" in the "recovery", and come to this forum seeking help...instead of rebuke.

Some of what we experienced was unbearable, so we left. Each of us has a story to tell and a testimony of our experience. I personally want to always testify to the Lord's faithfulness to me over the years, and to testify to others that the Lord is faithful to everyone who seeks his mercy and grace to follow him out of the Local Church or any other abusive situation.

We wish you all the best.

Nell
Admin/Moderator

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Don't you think some of the blended brothers can have their own ministry, write books using scripture, and could have a large following?? Of course they can write their own publications and gain a large following. But they choose to "be small", take the cross and endeavor to be the "testimony of Jesus".

“If you stay in the recovery, you enjoy the blessing. If you stay outside the recovery, there is nearly no blessing.” - Witness Lee

[I tell the truth]

Yes, if you stay in the recovery you receive the blessing, keep the presence of God and can possibly be part of the building. However, before you can be built a be a part you need to become the precious materials but that involves a process they say. The crucified and resurrected Christ needs to build Himself into you.

It's not that easy though. Our our nature needs to go because it contradicts God and is sinful. It's a process and this is where grafting comes in. We need to be cut off from our old nature where it dies and God imparts Himself into us resurrection. Also, our old man is nailed to the cross and needs to stay there. If we do anything not of Christ but in our old man it means we got off the cross. Also that we won't let Christ be expressed we are being our our God and head.

This is probably what alot of people in the church think of you who left. That you are self boasting, self approving, prideful,etc. And, this is because you refuse to be under God's judgement to be stripped, dealt with and suffer. When you should be losing your old man and gaining God while calling on His name and reading and praying His world while this is happening.

You start as materials, then cut stones and then living stones. Minoru said Christianity is not building up God's house and temple but a man's work because they don't know or wont accept that they're flesh and are not worthy but death and burial. Nell, as you said earlier yes we are all part of the body. But, Minoru shared in his message that everyone outside the recovery isn't in the right place to build the house, doesn't know how and therefore isn't. One recurring thing for all the coworkers is that they so easily say worthless, poor and pitiful as if that's what God thinks of those outside the Church.

Ed's early message said each message we can't say we heard and know everything. Because if we do congratulations let's have a funeral for you. Instead, we need to be open to learn and have a fresh appreciation.

Just keeping everyone updated what is being spoken.

Adding something about Flesh, Lee said he wished he could cover himself completely because he is flesh and it's sinful.

Originally Posted by Zezima

“If you stay in the recovery, you enjoy the blessing. If you stay outside the recovery, there is nearly no blessing.” - Witness Lee

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Do you also mock David for his great sin? do you also mock Solomon for his evil acts of fornication and idolatry after Jehovah appeared to him 2 times? Your attitude needs to be judged and looked at by God and shown in the light to you. You have a lot of boldness living in darkness, but that is just my opinion. Go and build the Body of Christ and stop your fleshly complaining!

Unregistered,

If this is your first time posting, welcome to the forum! Although your comment above was deleted, I'd like to respond to it, because I see the "David and Solomon" thing brought up so, so many times as if it is some kind of ace in the hole, show-stopping argument.

The blindingly obvious difference between David and Solomon versus what is being spoken of here on this forum is that David and Solomon are shown to have acknowledged their sins and repented. In contrast, no such thing happened in the Lord's Recovery by Witness Lee or his immoral sons.

What did John the Baptist preach in Mark 1?

Mark 1:4
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

...repentance for the forgiveness of sins...

Repentance is kind of the lynch pin. This is kind of Forgiveness 101. If you want to be forgiven, you need to repent.

Did Witness Lee or his sons acknowledge and repent for their immorality and their covering of immorality? No! So they are not let off the hook.

And the "they are no longer alive" argument doesn't work either because the behaviors and tactics that Witness Lee used to cover things up and to justify protecting sexually immoral and extraordinarily predatory and damaging behavior ARE INGRAINED IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY TO THIS DAY. He used twisted and false biblical justification for his evil behavior. He taught things opposed to the Bible which have been passed on to the co-workers and leading brothers and who now apply those same tactics to similar situations all throughout the Lord's Recovery, causing an unbelievably bloody, tear-filled, and in too many cases, suicide-littered path behind them.

If you think that those who continue to hold an unrepentant and sin-protecting system accountable are the ones in darkness......I'm afraid that only serves to show you that the serious situation I described above has actually directly affected your own life, perceptions, and conscience. Please, unregistered, stick around and continue the discussion. You are being deceived by many, many false and unbiblical doctrines that are packed full of flowery and ear-tickling words that are so well packaged as to make you think you are receiving something pure, when it is really one of the most leavened systems out there. Please come back and participate. If you are right and we are wrong, then you should have nothing to fear by participating.......right?

Trapped

[Nell]

Good points Trapped.

I was reading through Acts and came to chapter 15. I came up with some questions that I would like to throw out for your consideration. Specifically,

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Here's my unauthorized "version" of Acts 15:1 A certain man, Witness Lee, came from China and taught the brothers, Christians in America: "except you follow my ministry, my words, you are not in the true church."

2 Then after a time of obeying Witness Lee's words, an uproar of no small dissension and disputation rose up among those who once followed Lee. They began to question Lee and his elders regarding their behavior and, regarding Lee's interpretation of scriptures, etc., for they indeed began to call their sect a "recovery". A discussion forum was set up by certain others to confront Lee's elders about this question, for Lee himself had passed some 25 years hence.
...
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Elders of Lee, saying, that it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.That is, it is needful to require Lee's followers, Christian believers, to cut themselves off from many things including their families, friends and other Christian believers. Elders of Lee led their brothers and sisters without grace but with condescending tones and critiques to control the believers to keep the law of Lee.

6 And those who follow this forum discussion came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, many rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, forum members and followers, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the by the mouth of God, all Christians should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knows the hearts of men, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto those followers of Lee.
9 put no difference between us and them, purifying all hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why, ye elders of Lee, why put a yoke upon the neck of the followers of Jesus? ...which, by the way, neither you--nor we--are able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, built up in the one true Church by Jesus himself, even as they.

12 Then all the multitude kept silence... .


Adapted by Nell

Originally Posted by Trapped

And the "they are no longer alive" argument doesn't work either because the behaviors and tactics that Witness Lee used to cover things up and to justify protecting sexually immoral and extraordinarily predatory and damaging behavior ARE INGRAINED IN THE LORD'S RECOVERY TO THIS DAY. He used twisted and false biblical justification for his evil behavior. He taught things opposed to the Bible which have been passed on to the co-workers and leading brothers and who now apply those same tactics to similar situations all throughout the Lord's Recovery, causing an unbelievably bloody, tear-filled, and in too many cases, suicide-littered path behind them.

If you think that those who continue to hold an unrepentant and sin-protecting system accountable are the ones in darkness......I'm afraid that only serves to show you that the serious situation I described above has actually directly affected your own life, perceptions, and conscience. Please, unregistered, stick around and continue the discussion. You are being deceived by many, many false and unbiblical doctrines that are packed full of flowery and ear-tickling words that are so well packaged as to make you think you are receiving something pure, when it is really one of the most leavened systems out there. Please come back and participate. If you are right and we are wrong, then you should have nothing to fear by participating.......right?

Trapped

Hello Trapped,

Are you a former church kid? Just by reading your post, I can hear and see the pain of the “church life” over-pouring through your writing. Talked to quite a few former church kids, they all have the same kind of pain that bleeds through even when they are trying to do their best not to show it. I’m just guessing I say. Maybe wrongly.

There is only one way that those who continue all these abuses will be brought to justice even in our lifetime, and that’s by having more and more victims speaking out. Unless that hidden life of the system will be brought out to light, these men will continue to exploit their prey. Whoever this individual is that wrote this post you referring to, or the other post here, is probably a man with a bunch of skeletons in his closet, who can’t and won’t allow any light in the room. This kind of personal vitriol, is the outright expression of what Jesus said, that “out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks”. This has permeated in this movement going back for decades, even to the beginning. In order to make oneself feel righteous in their eyes, they step all over people and attack those who call out their hypocrisy.

I very much doubt that this individual has the b@^^s to face the music, especially when it comes to responding to your words, and if what you said can be backed up by real facts (which can probably be found written and spoken by real people, here and elsewhere). It’s a one way street when it comes to them, you ether running people over or you are being run over by them.

Wish you well, and may God raise more people to speak out for the broken, and the afflicted.

To the moderator,
I noticed there is registration process to post here. Maybe eventually I will do so, but I just can’t right now. Please have a bit of grace at this time for me, if possible. I’m not interested in daily or even weekly posting, but I might check in once in the while.
Thanks

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

I read a quote awhile back that said something like "The way to tell how great a leader is, is to see how much freedom he gives to those who follow him." I can't remember who said it, but it makes a lot of sense.Contrast our great God with Witness Lee and those in leadership in the Local Churches. Compare with an "arranged marriage" vs. a couple who mutually choose to marry each other out of love, respect, honor, etc.

Nell

Reminds me of that 80’s signature song by The Police, “I’ll Be Watching You.” People thought it was a love song, even heard it at a wedding. Actually the song was about a stalker.

Such became of LC “love.”

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Reminds me of that 80’s signature song by The Police, “I’ll Be Watching You.” People thought it was a love song, even heard it at a wedding. Actually the song was about a stalker.

Such became of LC “love.”

It's a creepy commercial now for DuckDuckGo aiming at Google for watching/tracking all Google users.