Examining LC Spinoffs

[Sons to Glory!]

Recently something was mentioned about the Scottsdale gathering, which was once part of the LC system back in the mid-1980s. It’s been suggested that this group, and other groups that have left the LC/LSM orbit, are really just sort of a LC-lite, and therefore might be excessively steeped in unhealthy Lee-ism. I thought it might be beneficial to have a discussion, examining what the teachings and practices of these groups are.

A few basics to convey regarding my experience in Scottsdale: I have been with the Scottsdale gathering since 1998, and therefore know something of the teachings and practices here. I admit to being quite biased in that I love this gathering and, as I have stated before, I know that this is where the Lord has placed me . . . I’m most thankful for this on a continual basis! With certainly, I can say there is nothing to hide here, and I welcome all sincere inquiries. The meetings in Scottsdale do follow the open format as is the basic pattern with LC meetings. That is, anyone is welcome to speak something they believe will edify others in their pursuit of Christ, to call a song, etc. As far as whose ministry we are beholding to, I would say it is wide open as long as it is centered in the word of God and honors Christ. Six brothers rotate giving the Sunday message, typically from a book of the Bible we're going through. Lee’s teachings are rarely mentioned and generally only by a very few. Nee’s materials are discussed a little more from time to time, and a myriad of other Christian writers and speakers are shared regularly. Basically, there is NO rule about who or what can be shared . . . it is up to the individual as they are so led by the Spirit.

Personally, I have a small group of brothers I fellowship with regularly, at least a couple times a week. For us, everything is on the table and open for discussion. This kind of transparent fellowship is awesome in order to support one another and to pray for one another’s situations. We also have had many discussions about how our thinking has been affected – positively or negatively – from our time in the LC. Through this and the study of the word, many things have been brought to light that we now see were erroneous or unhealthy. Has there been a total rejection of all things from the LC cosmos? No, and again, there are no rules about that. Some are very strong in their distaste of much of Lee’s teachings, others not so much. Somewhat surprisingly (but I can certainly understand why), there are some here that are quite solid in their near total refutation of the Freemans, whom this group was generally centered around before Bill & Patsy Freeman left in 1998.

There are a few other off-shoots from the LC that I am aware of in this country and which I have had some interaction with. This includes the group in Moses Lake, Oregon, and a group in Raleigh, North Carolina, where Don Rutledge is. There is also a group in Westminster, California, where I believe John Ingalls was (before his passing). I have always experienced a really good and liberating time in Christ when ones from those places have come here for sharing, fellowship and worship. Any other off-shoots I am not so personally aware of, concerning their teachings and practices, etc. (A couple other spinoff groups to mention, but I don't know much about, are Grandview Christian Assembly near Columbus, Ohio, as well as the church in Toronto, Ontario.)

Again, I felt a discussion around this might be beneficial to some participating or viewing this forum. To those who are still be in the LC and are lurking out there, they could learn what these groups are like that have left the LSM orbit. To those who are regulars on here, it might help clear up any misconceptions. And, the Lord might also use it to shine light on hindering things I (and others) might still harbor unawares from the LC influence.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

(A couple other spinoff groups to mention, but I don't know much about, are Grandview Christian Assembly near Columbus, Ohio, as well as the church in Toronto, Ontario.)

I think John Myer would take great exception to you calling GCA a "Local Church spinoff". Have you taken the time to watch any of the online Sunday services I have posted on numerous Sunday mornings? Have you taken the time to peruse his website "Bareknuckle Bible? (I have posted quotes from John's messages on BNB.org many times on LCD) I think you will find that Myer has done his best to completely divest himself, his ministry and those under his lead from Witness Lee and the religion of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Good for him and those under his care!

As far as the church in Toronto, Nigel Tomes et al have also pretty much done a 180 from all the false and heretical teachings and practices of the Local Church. The Sunday services at CIT have also been posted on most Sunday mornings here on LCD. Have you ever bothered to take a little time and see what God has done there? No? Well just go to Youtube and put in "Church in Toronto" - https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...rch+in+toronto

As a matter of fact, I was just going to be posting Nigel Tomes recent message in which he corrects Witness Lee's off-base (and totally unbiblical) interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:45. It is obvious that Tomes has put a lot of work on this subject. He checked into the teachings of a number of widely accepted and reputable scholars (something Never done by Lee and his followers) and found the correct understanding and interpretation of this very crucial passage. This only would have been possible if he had freed himself from the influence of the unqualified and uneducated ramblings of Witness Lee. Good for him and those who under his care!
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[Sons to Glory!]

Those are the two groups (GCA & Toronto) listed as the ones I know the least about. I actually added them because someone (another regular poster, who is more familiar with them) I shared this with before posting, mentioned they thought these groups should be added.

Perhaps "spinoff" needs clarification. I also thought of different terms like "version" or "offshoot" or "derivations" or do you have another suggestion that would fit better?

And do you think these two shouldn't be in this discussion at all? To me, if they were once associated with the LC, but now aren't, they should be included. (which seems would still be all of them mentioned in that paragraph)

[UntoHim]

Sons to Glory!

Do you actually read my posts? After all this time how is it that you don't you know much about Grandview in Columbus or the Church in Toronto? News and information about the them have been featured on this forum for years. John Myers book, A Future and A Hope was a major topic of discussion for years. Very little information or discussion about Moses Lake or Westminster assembly has been a topic on this forum. And do you know why? It's because they are basically the Local Church version 2, or the Local Church lite. I'm sure that is attractive to you, but I would never recommend these places to any young person or new Christian. To my knowledge, neither place has repudiated and repented of the heresies and excesses of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Unless and until they do that I don't believe they are a healthy, sound place for any Christian to make their home.

How do you think that we are going to be "examining" things that you seem to be totally oblivious to? No the term "spinoff" does not need clarification. What needs clarification is why you would start a thread like this. If you have a good reason please make that a point of clarification, and maybe we can go from there.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Sons to Glory!

Do you actually read my posts? After all this time how is it that you don't you know much about Grandview in Columbus or the Church in Toronto? News and information about the them have been featured on this forum for years. John Myers book, A Future and A Hope was a major topic of discussion for years. Very little information or discussion about Moses Lake or Westminster assembly has been a topic on this forum. And do you know why? It's because they are basically the Local Church version 2, or the Local Church lite. I'm sure that is attractive to you, but I would never recommend these places to any young person or new Christian. To my knowledge, neither place has repudiated and repented of the heresies and excesses of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Unless and until they do that I don't believe they are a healthy, sound place for any Christian to make their home.

How do you think that we are going to be "examining" things that you seem to be totally oblivious to? No the term "spinoff" does not need clarification. What needs clarification is why you would start a thread like this. If you have a good reason please make that a point of clarification, and maybe we can go from there.
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Wow and WOW! Why the immediate adversarial tone, bro? I wonder if you read my posts! Let me explain - what I said here is that I don't have firsthand knowledge of those two groups. I do have better firsthand knowledge of the others, and therefore have some basis to speak. I am certainly aware of John Myer and have read some of his materials (here and other places), but admittedly not in detail (I may have even known him while I was in the LC in Columbus in the early to late 80s, but I'm not sure. That was over 30 years ago.)

So for now, if you want, let's look at the other groups.

Since you think the remaining groups are merely LC V2, because they haven't openly "repudiated and repented" of all things WL/LC, let's talk about them. Otherwise, it sounds like you have passed summary judgement according to only your opinion - case closed! (And, as per recent discussion, is there not room for all opinions on the LC judgement spectrum here, or only those of the moderators, who don't seem very moderate these days!?)

And I wonder if you read the end of my opening post, as to what the intended purpose of this thread is about, so let me quote it here again: Again, I felt a discussion around this might be beneficial to some participating or viewing this forum. To those who are still be in the LC and are lurking out there, they could learn what these groups are like that have left the LSM orbit. To those who are regulars on here, it might help clear up any misconceptions. And, the Lord might also use it to shine light on hindering things I (and others) might still harbor unawares from the LC influence.

UntoHim, this goes directly to the three purposes of the forum, that I presented and which you affirmed less than two days ago on the other thread, right? Here they are again:

> Help those still in the LC;
> Help those who have been damaged by the LC (includes you and me) to hear the truth and receive the Lord's healing;
> And to provide and/or steer to healthy fellowship those considering leaving the LC.

I think this thread's open, honest and non-adversarial discussion would be helpful for those above three reasons. Does that not make sense?

[UntoHim]

StG.

I am not your adversary, I am your moderator. No one is forcing you to post here on this forum. There are unmoderated, free-for-all places on the Internet where anything goes. Anything does not go here.

One of the things that does not go here is the promotion of the teachings and practices of the Local Church of Witness Lee. Many of these are unbiblical and unhelpful at the very least, and many are heretical and dangerous to those who would imbibe and practice them. This has been my stance since day one. Nell is even more stout on this stance, and this is why I have commissioned her to come along side and assist me in administering and moderating the forum. If you haven't picked this up in the nearly 10 years that you've been on this forum, I'm not sure what I can tell you.

You are still not listening. I know you're hearing me. I know you read English. I have not said, nor have I ever said, that any Christian, or group of Christians, have to "openly repudiate and repent of all things Witness Lee/Local Church". (Personally, I would think this would be the healthiest and wisest thing for any former member)- What I have called for, what I have prayed for, what I have kept this little popcorn stand going for, is that anyone and everyone who has been influenced by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee and the Blended Brothers would repudiate and repent of the false teachings and harmful practices.

The Local Church of Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry is a system of error. This system of error is comprised of the false teachings and unbiblical, harmful practices established by Nee and Lee over a period of 70+ years, and is now promoted, extolled and exalted by the Blended Brothers. To my knowledge and observation, these "spinoff" groups, to one degree or another, have remained in the system of error. They have removed the nametag off of the box of poison, and have mixed the poison with some biblical/orthodox things, but remain in the system of error. This is not my opinion. This is simply the truth. You have expressed a desire for all concerned "to hear the truth and receive the Lord's healing". Well, this is the truth. I know from personal experience that this truth is hard. This truth is cold. But it is the truth, and no healing can or will come without this truth.

My dear brother Sons to Glory! I am afraid that you are not interested in discussion about these spinoff groups, rather you are interested in promoting them as a healthy and acceptable place for former members. I am plainly and clearly telling you that this is not going to happen on this forum. I have plainly and clearly given you the reasons why, so please don't pretend that I have not given a reason.

Have I now become your adversary by telling you the truth? If so, I'm sorry to hear that, I really am. You have claimed to be interested in "providing and/or steering to healthy fellowship those considering leaving the LC." For better or for worse, I have been doing my very best to do as much providing and as much steering as I possibly can for the better part of 15 years now. Why God has called this poor old broken down sinner to lead this train of vanquished foes only he knows. And now my brother I will leave you with this. If you are going to stay on this train you will have to follow the rules of the train. And if you are going to stay on this train you will have to be headed in the same direction because this train is only headed in one direction.

Your brother who is desperately trying to be, unto Him.
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[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

As a matter of fact, I was just going to be posting Nigel Tomes recent message in which he corrects Witness Lee's off-base (and totally unbiblical) interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:45. It is obvious that Tomes has put a lot of work on this subject. He checked into the teachings of a number of widely accepted and reputable scholars (something Never done by Lee and his followers) and found the correct understanding and interpretation of this very crucial passage. This only would have been possible if he had freed himself from the influence of the unqualified and uneducated ramblings of Witness Lee. Good for him and those who under his care!
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Nigel Tomes seems to have completely obliterated the LSM Authority & Submission heresy in this 2017 writing:

"LSM’s ‘Authority & Submission’ Tampers with the Trinity"
https://blendedbody.com/NigelTomes/L...ithTrinity.pdf

That writing has helped me to connect many "dots". Here is the last two paragraphs...

"In contrast, among LSM Local Churches, Watchman Nee’s authority-submission doctrine, which mirrors the
EFS dogma, has survived for seven decades unchallenged. The lack of open discussion among LSM’s leadership
reflects a number of factors. First Local Church adherents have been thoroughly indoctrinated with this
authority doctrine. W. Nee assigned absolute authority to God’s deputy authority; they answer to God alone. He
taught: “God appoints authority...Whether or not a deputy authority is wrong is nobody else's business...We
have to...submit to deputy authority...If a deputy authority makes a mistake, we do not...bear any responsibility
for his mistake...God only requires [our] obedience.”89 To challenge an LSM doctrine is perceived as an affront
to “God’s oracle,” his deputy authority—an act of rebellion. Hence, the doctrine itself puts a “severe chill” on
discussion or debate, even when a teaching, like this one, is manifestly erroneous and does serious damage.
Second, I believe that, here again, we see the pervasive influence of Asian culture on the Local Church. Jackson
Wu observes that,90 “One of the most important authorities found in Chinese life...is the teacher...‘Education
is the acquisition of correct knowledge, not the...generation of new knowledge,’ hence, ‘the teacher is the
repository of knowledge, to be passed onto his students.’...‘Uniformity, rather than individualization, is sought.’
...Classrooms are primarily managed through criticism...this is meant to spur diligence and submission to the
teacher...In addition, persistence & proficiency in memorization is developed.” These Asian values, translated
into a Christian context, aptly describe the role of Witness Lee as “God’s oracle” within the “Lord’s Recovery.”
This top-down approach leaves no room for theological discussion or debate. As Don Rutledge said “fellowship
is like water, it flows downwards (not up)” in LSM’s Local Church. 20 years after Witness Lee’s departure Local
Church members don’t evaluate Witness Lee’s teachings, they only memorize & recite them as Witness Lee’s
“tape-recorders.” LSM’s publication, Affirmation & Critique, only affirms Witness Lee, it never critiques him.
Asian cultural norms are pervasive in the Local Church, even in 21st-century North America. A decade after the
Great Lakes Area [GLA] local churches parted ways with LSM, many of these characteristics remain. Most GLA
local churches are Asian churches. The “apple doesn’t fall far from the tree,” as John Myer said in this context."
Nigel Tomes, Toronto, CANADA. June, 2017.


P.S.