Fearing God

[Awoken]

A person on my Facebook feed posted this rather striking quote from Witness Lee's "Life-Study of Job". I think this teaching deserves discussion, and I would especially like to hear from Lord's Recovery members/defenders of WL's theology about how they think this lines up with Scripture.

"To fear God and turn away from evil is not adequate, and actually this is not positive. The most positive thing is to express God. To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil." (Witness Lee, Life-Study of Job, Message Two)

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Awoken

A person on my Facebook feed posted this rather striking quote from Witness Lee's "Life-Study of Job". I think this teaching deserves discussion, and I would especially like to hear from Lord's Recovery members/defenders of WL's theology about how they think this lines up with Scripture.

"To fear God and turn away from evil is not adequate, and actually this is not positive. The most positive thing is to express God. To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil." (Witness Lee, Life-Study of Job, Message Two)

As I see it, God's desire is to have a close relationship with man - as sons. So fear is not the goal, but rather love - and it is the foundation, as it should be in any good family relationship. Sons express their father. If we as sons are expressing our heavenly Father, then sin is not an issue. "Perfect love casts out all fear." In the Old Testament, the law and fear were prevalent. But this was not according to God's perfect desire. "For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law." (Gal 3:21) "But when that which is perfect has come, that which is in part shall be done away." (1 Cor 13:10)

Love and a close relationship with God is the goal. We may love a good earthly father, yet there is still a healthy fear, honoring and respect of them. But the point is not to dwell in the fear, but in the love which results in relationship.

[Awoken]

Hey StG - thanks for your reply. I have been meaning to get back to this but the past few days have been busy and kind of difficult, sorry.

Okay, so, funnily enough, I was reading a devotional with my better half this morning that touches on exactly this subject. And it was basically tacking the same tack that you are. The devotional quotes 1 John 4:18 ("Where God's love is, there is no fear, because God's perfect love drives out fear. It is punishment that makes a person fear, so love is not made perfect in the person who fears."). It then goes into the devotional section. The opening lines in there stuck out to me and I felt compelled correct them in fellowship with my wife, or at least voice my objection to their one-sidedness when it comes to the presentation of Biblical truth. The devo says "The Bible often speaks of the 'fear of the Lord'. This refers to a believer's reverence, respect, and awe of God, rather than the emotion of feeling afraid."

However, I would ask - where in the Bible did they get that from? Did God make a mistake when He used the word "fear"? Why wouldn't He just say reverence, respect, and awe if that is all He meant?

I think it is extremely dangerous to redefine this word to our liking, OR to just say "well God is love". Yes, God is love. Part of that love is, I suspect, instilling a healthy fear of Him and the fact that He ultimately has complete authority over EVERYTHING, including us, into us. Because we are sinners living in a sinful world in the flesh, that helps to keep us in check, helps to convict us of our wrongdoings, helps us to remember we are living in front of a just, holy, and righteous God. And this ultimately should produce more love because it makes us realize He wants to protect us from NOT having fear of Him. The Bible does not say "love of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". It says "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". I'd go so far as to say that in terms of our relationship with God, love is the beginning of GOD's side. Fear is the beginning of OUR side.

On the cross the two thieves were dying next to Jesus and the one said, "Hey! You're the Christ, aren't You? So save us!" The other guy repented (he is even called the Penitent Thief, evidently, something new Google just taught me).

Luke 23:40 But the other responded, and rebuking him, said, “Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our crimes; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

No, we are not supposed to dwell in fear - of earthly things, or of Satan, or of suffering, etc. Fear of the Lord is different. Proverbs 19:23, "The fear of the LORD leads to life, And he who has it will abide in satisfaction; He will not be visited with evil."

Here's a funny thing about that guy on the cross. A lot of Once-Saved-Always-Saved types use him as an example of their doctrine and say "Hey, that guy didn't do anything, and he was eternally saved! You don't need to do anything, just believe and be saved! Even if you live like a total sinner after that, well, you might get some punishment, but God CAN'T take your salvation away." I don't believe this because A) I don't believe it's ever smart to say God CAN'T do anything, and B) it does not match up to what Jesus actually taught about people who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

And this is the thing about the thief on the cross - he did do something. He was suffering and dying on a cross for his sins. He did wrong and he also bled and died and suffered for it, and in the midst of that he was able to repent and believe into Christ (and believe even his own suffering was not sufficient to vindicate him - which can't be an easy belief to come by, if you're actively dying on a giant pole). That is not small. We should be thankful we're NOT dying and bleeding on a cross and we still have the opportunity to live righteously by the power of the Spirit, not using that person's testimony as an excuse to say "well, we don't need to really fear God, he loves you no matter how much evil you do".

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for the reply! It is a balance, isn't it? If we think it's this way or that way, often we find something in the word that doesn't line-up exactly with what we think we've landed on. Let God's word be true and every man a liar!

The LC taught fearing God. That is, God would get His purpose and if we didn't go along with Him He would just crush us. Once I believed that, because of that teaching, but now I see His primary motivation toward us is His love. Does that mean no one should fear God? Of course not - those that are not regenerated should fear Him! But I'm seeing more and more that He causes all things to work together for our ultimate benefit, that is the ones who love Him. In love Christ was sent for us.

And I agree that the use of the word fear shouldn't be shied away from - it is there in the Greek even in the New Testament. I cannot completely explain how love and fear coincide, but there it is . . . He is our exceedingly great reward, and this Person can't be put in our conceptual box!

Regard the "once saved always saved" idea, there has been a lot of discussion on here about that. My personal take on it is from the standpoint of life - once the Seed of Life is implanted in us we become sons with His life and become partakers of the divine nature . . . we are reborn with a new Life. He will not un-born us. We may suffer great loss if we don't walk in Spirit and listen to His voice, but we're still ones in whom He was pleased to "reveal His Son in me."

[UntoHim]

"To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil"
Witness Lee

No, expressing God is not higher than fearing God. As a matter of fact, I would question the biblical soundness of anyone who teaches such a thing. Actually this explains a lot about Witness Lee's understanding and mindset. It explains how he could have been such a hypocrite. At the podium he appeared to be very knowledgeable and sincere, but behind the scenes he was very small, weak-minded and petty. Maybe Lee was expressing God behind the podium there in all those excruciatingly long training "messages", but he sure was not expressing God behind the scenes.

Someone who really has a genuine fear of God is not two-faced. They are the same speaking before hundreds as they are fellowshipping one on one. Those who would be a shepherd and leader among God's people should be the most God-fearing. New believers and young people do not need someone to "express God" as much as they need someone to teach them to fear God and his Word. "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom" (Proverbs 9:10) I would submit that without godly fear there is no godly wisdom. And I would highly doubt that anyone who lacks godly wisdom is expressing God. And anyone who has no godly fear surely has no fear of his Word, and would have no right or authority to be a minister of the Word. May God have mercy.
-

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil"
Witness Lee

No, expressing God is not higher than fearing God.
-

Jesus surely was the perfect example of One that expressed God. And what did He teach as He was expressing God?

"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!" Luke 12:4-5 ...3 times!!! And it is a warning!.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Awoken

A person on my Facebook feed posted this rather striking quote from Witness Lee's "Life-Study of Job". I think this teaching deserves discussion, and I would especially like to hear from Lord's Recovery members/defenders of WL's theology about how they think this lines up with Scripture.

"To fear God and turn away from evil is not adequate, and actually this is not positive. The most positive thing is to express God. To express God is higher than fearing God and turning away from evil." (Witness Lee, Life-Study of Job, Message Two)

Deuteronomy 17:18-20 "And it shall be, when he [the King] sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:

That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand or the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel." (KJV)

17:19 says to "read therein.. fear.. keep.. do" Psalms 1 and 2 form a coherent pair showing that the "read-fear-keep-do" Deut 17 King was Jesus the Nazarene. Psalm 1 shows a man who reads and follows God's word scrupulously. Psalm 2 has this Obedient Man installed as the Anointed King, the Eternal Son of God, and who's Ruler of the kings of the earth. From this composite OT picture we see portrayed before us Jesus the Son of David, who read the law, feared God and kept the law (Matt 4:4), fulfilled the law (Luke 24:44; Gal 4:4) and fully expressed God. Because he obeyed, he therefore expressed God perfectly ("when you see me, you see the Father"), and the Father raised him to glory (cf Psa 18:20-24). Jesus is our King High Priest, perfected forever, who always lives to intercede for us. When we read Deuteronomy 17, Psalms 1 and 2, we have this composite picture before us, that shows our King in the gospels, in the epistle to the Hebrews, in Paul's letters.

WL said that Deuteronomy 17 was LC elders on the local ground who enjoyed RecV and footnotes, Psalm 1 was vain because, "nobody can obey God", and Psalm 2 was of course Jesus, because NT citations make that unavoidably clear. WL presented an incoherent exegetical stew if you ask me. Those three chapters rather show that Jesus feared God his Father and obeyed God's commands, and thereby expressed God. Jesus was and forever remains the Incarnate Word. Our faith is in him, in his holy fear, his obedience, his expression. Did WL express God when he kept PL in charge after his wrong-doing, and the threat to church members was exposed? No, and I'm probably no better. Jesus is the One who expressed God. Look to him, and live. Any other considerations are vain.

[Raptor]

This is a post from a Kathy Buskett, on Quora responding to this question:

Why do scriptures say to "fear" the Lord? Why would we fear a loving and merciful God and Father?

Paul explains that we fear our earthly fathers by giving them the respect they are due and that BECAUSE they are loving, they correct us. Similarly our Heavenly Father is to be respected. He is always working everything out for the highest good and unlike us He always knows what that is. And, Paul continues in his analogy, if God doesn’t correct us, it’s because we’re illegitimate sons and not actually sons of faith.

now I know he’s talking about correction in this passage however it’s also true about respecting and fearing God.

proverbs says that the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. The opposite is also true - if you have no fear of God you have no wisdom - and no real relationship with God. And if God isn’t correcting you and instead you’re excusing yourself and your sin, then you’d better fear and examine yourself to see if you’re really in the faith.

hell is serious business. Salvation is serious business. It’s not something to be trifled with. Yet in America I see professing Christians often trivializing the consequences of sin, dabbling in sin they should never be dabbling in, yet still professing to be Christian. this is dragging the name of God through the mud snd explains a lot of the politics that have gone on in America the last four or five years.

why do professing Christians not only sin, but endorse a poster child for vice? Why? I’ve asked myself. Thank you for this question because it helped me come to the answer. It’s ultimately Because they have no real fear of God.

But Why? I’ve also studied to figure this out - how have we gotten here? I believe it’s Because for the last fifty or more years they’ve taken out hell from the gospel. They say a loving God wouldn’t send people to hell. They’re afraid it will offend and turn people off. So they just take it out! Which the Bible itself forbids.

Unfortunately now as a result we have a plethora of people who claim to be Christians worshipping a false God they have made up in their heads. A God who winks at sin, who is all love all the time and who Never ever corrects. This false god allows them to continue in their sin. And it all stems from a lack of the fear of God.

If they genuinely feared God this wouldn’t be happening. God made the universe. He holds it in his hand. Jesus says God continues to work and in him we live and move and have our being. Everything that has breath he controls and not a sparrow drops to the ground without his knowing it. He is all mighty all knowing and all holy. He is mighty and wise beyond our comprehension. We SHOULD fear and resoect someone so powerful, righteous and holy.

And yet so loving that he cares for each member of his creation individually.

we take his sacrifice of his own sons lifeboood in vain when we refuse him or when we continue to walk in sin but pretend to know him.

and that is the ultimate lack of the fear of God.
that I believe is the main sin in our age. If we had a true fear of God (and we don’t) none of the other sins so prevalent today would exist. People do the horrible things they do because they don’t really believe in God (even most Christians I talk to don’t actually believe) and therefore they have no fear of god or of hell. Outsiders think it’s a fairy tale. Insiders have never seen the true power of God (though it’s available if they would walk in the spirit and the holiness that Jesus requires) and therefore they have no real respect for God. If you ever really experience Him, you’ll be changed forever like I was and never take him for granted again.

Jesus himself commanded that we fear the One who has the power to cast both body and soul into hell.

JESUS says that. Is that shocking to you? Is any of this disgusting to you? Then you don’t know and don’t really believe the Bible. Most of what I’ve said here was pulled from various Bible verses. It’s all biblical. But people don’t know Jesus, don’t know the one true God, and love their sin instead of loving God. They’d rather continue in it than repent.

repentance is the essence of the gospel. But those who have no fear of God have even tried to redefine what that means. It means to TURN from your sin in faith to God. And In fear of him, which will produce humility.

which is very very lacking today. mid even venture to say you can know who fears God and who doesn’t by the fruit of humility. And by the lack thereof.

[Awoken]

Wow. That is an awesome post Raptor. Thank you for sharing.