For those who chose to stay

[alwayscurious]

For those who chose to stay in the recovery in spite of knowing that not all of what is in the ministry is "good" and in spite of recognizing many of the "traditions" and ways of living may be un-biblical or not-the-norm, what made you stay? Was it the Christian family that you now have that motivated you to stay? Did the Lord specifically lead you to stay? Or did you just not want to start over alone? I'm having many doubts but also whenever I think of staying I feel like I want to but at the same time know that I might live a sort of "double life" if I stay in the recovery. If I leave, I know that my identity will be gone for a very, very long time, and that's not even touching the loneliness aspect.

Hey! After reading your post I was reminded about all the times I had a similar feeling. As a college student in the church life I am sometimes discouraged. I have never had the feeling to leave in the same sense but often times especially with Covid I doubt myself and the saints around me. What has allowed me to stay is knowing that no church is perfect but the Lord is the one who has put me here. We are all Shepard’s but we are also sheep. The Lords tender care over me, Him putting me in the church life, putting me in a divine family, and affording me the opportunity to see the high peak of the divine revelation is what has kept me all these years. The Lord meets us where we are at. If you feel angry or frustrated or mad , tell Him. Even when I am mad at my situation I tell the Lord. He likes to hear us. He might not fix our situation but He does supply Himself to us as grace. No church is better than others, in fact I have many Christian friends from other churches that I enjoy the Lord together with. It probably has to do with the fact that I grew up in the church life but after cultivating a family here and knowing that our life is not our own but the Lords is what has allowed me to stay. As the church we know we are knitted together with ALL believers and we stand on the same ground with all those who call on Him with a pure heart. I hope all is well with you and would like to keep up with what you decide to do (:

- a stranger who wishes you the best

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hey! After reading your post I was reminded about all the times I had a similar feeling. As a college student in the church life I am sometimes discouraged. I have never had the feeling to leave in the same sense but often times especially with Covid I doubt myself and the saints around me. What has allowed me to stay is knowing that no church is perfect but the Lord is the one who has put me here. We are all Shepard’s but we are also sheep. The Lords tender care over me, Him putting me in the church life, putting me in a divine family, and affording me the opportunity to see the high peak of the divine revelation is what has kept me all these years. The Lord meets us where we are at. If you feel angry or frustrated or mad , tell Him. Even when I am mad at my situation I tell the Lord. He likes to hear us. He might not fix our situation but He does supply Himself to us as grace. No church is better than others, in fact I have many Christian friends from other churches that I enjoy the Lord together with. It probably has to do with the fact that I grew up in the church life but after cultivating a family here and knowing that our life is not our own but the Lords is what has allowed me to stay. As the church we know we are knitted together with ALL believers and we stand on the same ground with all those who call on Him with a pure heart. I hope all is well with you and would like to keep up with what you decide to do (:

- a stranger who wishes you the best

Unregistered kind stranger,

With all due respect, and it is a lot, the high peak of the divine revelation is God's economy.....according to Lee in "Living a Life According to the High Peak of the Divine Revelation":

"Centuries later Martin Luther made a further discovery. Luther saw the matter of justification by faith (Rom. 3:28). He discovered that salvation is not by works but by faith. After this, many other students of the Bible made further discoveries. However, before us, no one ever discovered God’s economy with Christ as its centrality and universality and all its reality. It was not until the last ten years that we put all these things together to have a full picture of God’s economy. This is the highest peak of the divine revelation."

But Lee made up God's economy in almost the same way that a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat. His teaching on God's economy is not according to Scripture at all.

No church is perfect, that's true, but the local church will condemn and point out what they think are evils in other Christian churches while suing and monitoring everyone who shines the light back on them. This is hypocrisy at its finest. Additionally, we are not called to have a perfect church, but we ARE called to discern the truth and hold teachings up to scripture. Deviated doctrines are what much of the NT is concerned with correcting. The local church is full of deviated doctrines but is cut-throat to anyone who points it out. They are not concerned with the truth, but with being right and having a spit-polished shiny exterior while hiding a lot of dark things on the inside.

I'm thoroughly encouraged that you enjoy the Lord with friends from other churches. That's wonderful! But the teaching in the local church labels your friends "spiritual fornicators".

I hope my response to you isn't a downer, but I felt compelled to say something. I'm happy to dialogue a little if you disagree with anything I said.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

What has allowed me to stay is knowing that no church is perfect but the Lord is the one who has put me here.

I hear the "no church is perfect" and "no minister is perfect" refrain more frequently these days. Of itself it's not untrue, but it's eerily familiar to the things that Martin Luther's fellow monks told him in the RCC, what John Wesley's Anglican peers said, what Watchman Nee's Anglican relatives told him.

When we want out, something is intolerable, but when we want to stay, it's not that bad, really... rather subjective, what? "So subjective is my Christ to me, real in me, and rich and sweet." Yes, but as Trapped points out, if your "subjective Christ" allows you to condemn others' imperfections but overlooks your own, wasn't that thoroughly exposed in the gospels? Do I really need to quote the parables?

And as Trapped also points out, the "high peak of God's economy" is perhaps "love your neighbor as yourself" and "give to those who can't repay, and you'll be repaid in the resurrection of the righteous" instead of "masticate the processed Triune God to become God in life and nature but not in the Godhead". There's simply no discernable evidence that it is what he said it was. His "God's economy" was whole-cloth fabrication. And yet it's presented as though it forms a basis for distinguishing "the local church" from everyone else, what's "genuine and proper" from the deficient and defunct.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hey! After reading your post I was reminded about all the times I had a similar feeling. As a college student in the church life I am sometimes discouraged. I have never had the feeling to leave in the same sense but often times especially with Covid I doubt myself and the saints around me. What has allowed me to stay is knowing that no church is perfect but the Lord is the one who has put me here. We are all Shepard’s but we are also sheep. The Lords tender care over me, Him putting me in the church life, putting me in a divine family, and affording me the opportunity to see the high peak of the divine revelation is what has kept me all these years. The Lord meets us where we are at. If you feel angry or frustrated or mad , tell Him. Even when I am mad at my situation I tell the Lord. He likes to hear us. He might not fix our situation but He does supply Himself to us as grace. No church is better than others, in fact I have many Christian friends from other churches that I enjoy the Lord together with. It probably has to do with the fact that I grew up in the church life but after cultivating a family here and knowing that our life is not our own but the Lords is what has allowed me to stay. As the church we know we are knitted together with ALL believers and we stand on the same ground with all those who call on Him with a pure heart. I hope all is well with you and would like to keep up with what you decide to do (:

- a stranger who wishes you the best

In reading this I'm reminded that the Lord has those in all groups, and that certainly includes even the Roman Catholic system. I listen to RC radio sometimes and it's a mix of some really good focus on Christ, and also the other nonsense (like idolizing Mary, etc.). I remember hearing a Catholic priest at a memorial speak a really pure gospel to the ones assembled there - it really surprised me! And as the Lord points out in the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation, He has some in all those situations.

The LC is no different in that respect. And I appreciate that the Lord has given you the experience of genuine fellowship with believers who don't meet in the LC! To me, the bottom-line is to stay where the Lord has put you and find His grace there, and be open to His leading if there would come a time He would lead you somewhere else.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

... What has allowed me to stay is knowing that no church is perfect but the Lord is the one who has put me here.

- a stranger who wishes you the best

Howdy, Stranger...
Welcome.

The problem (to me) with "no church is perfect" is, at least in the Local Church context, like saying "oh well...". We all know it's too late for perfection...for all have sinned...so that's not part of the conversation.

It is too often used as an excuse to minimize the sinful behavior of those who know better. Someone else pays for the imperfections of those in authority. The sinful imperfections continue.

Staying in the Local Church because the Lord is the one who put you there, and you stay out of obedience to his will is, in my mind, the ONLY reason to stay.

Nell

[aron]

Below is a testimony from one who chose to stay, after the Jo Casteel letter came out. It's posted on the 'grace and reality' web site, which looks like a recruiting page for the FTTA. (when I was in the LC, they asked members to write positive testimonies to share with the public)

Originally Posted by Positive Testimony

IS THE LORD’S RECOVERY A CULT? A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE LOCAL CHURCHES

I've been praying and musing about this post for a couple of weeks now. I'm here to testify about my positive experience in the local churches. In 1994, my parents, along with many other families, were captivated by the speaking in the ministry to the point that they “abandoned their nets” to follow the ministry. I was 3 years old. My parents were forcibly removed from a Pentecostal denomination because my dad could not contain himself anymore: he had found out about his human spirit.

He'd read a book by Watchman Nee, called The Normal Christian Life, and he was captured by the Lord. Four months later all the ones who had walked out of organized religion found the brothers and sisters of a local church in their city. That’s where I grew up, being completely loved, cherished, nourished, and protected by all the brothers and sisters from my locality. I never grew up hearing anyone talk about “one man only” or “one organization.” I grew up hearing Bible stories, singing Christian songs, and having a joyous childhood. That’s my experience.

My parents instilled in me a love for the Bible, a reverence for God, and respect for the older ones. They never exalted one man and never said we were part of any organization. On the contrary, my father would tell me during our car rides that we follow God, His economy, and nothing else. Man will fail. Man will disappoint us. God will never change. His purpose and will on this earth will never change. So Witness Lee and Living Stream Ministry were never an “exclusive” thing that I was taught. Again, that’s my experience.

At the age of 9, I had asked my mom: how can I be saved from burning in hell for all eternity? She led me to the Lord Jesus Christ and I received Him as my Lord and Savior. From that day on, I knew that I had Jesus in my heart and that He was never going to leave. Through the years, I became the young person who caused everyone to have some sort of headache. I always needed to know the answers to everything. I needed to know the why’s and why not’s? I needed the answers to how could that happen? and I challenged people to give me the facts and then you’re right. I never took anything “just because.” How I thank the Lord for that.

During my first semester in college, I took a religion class that specifically emphasized cults and other religions. I came to a conclusion during one of my classes that I was going to find every fault I could in the Bible and get answers. I needed answers. I went to my father and told him that I needed to know why there was such negative speaking out there about the local churches and why the word cult had been thrown around. He never discouraged me.

On the contrary, my father encouraged me to challenge and struggle with the Lord to find the truth. That began the journey between the Lord and me. I took philosophy classes and religious literature classes and watched numerous documentaries. I read books upon books, and nothing seemed to give me the answer.Then, during one of my philosophy courses, my professor said that Friedrich Nietzche’s conclusion is the best one we will ever get: human beings have a black hole in their being that will never be satisfied. I was left in utter confusion.

I share this experience with you because as this was all going on, the ones that I had known growing up, the ones who had cared for me in my locality, the ones that I got to know through the Christian Students club on my campus, never “blacklisted” or “marked me out” as a bad person. They loved me. The serving ones were there for me whenever I had questions or just felt like complaining. Never was I discouraged to not read other materials. I knew they were praying for me. In the sweet words of a brother, “you are where you are until you are somewhere else.” This has been my experience.

After moving to another university, I met a few saints in that locality. Once again I was met by the full-timers there who would open the doors of their homes, their fridges, and their hearts to me. I did not make it to all the meetings, and sometimes I would be rolling in late wearing whatever I wanted to, and I was never met with a look of condemnation or of disappointment. On the contrary, my elders, the full-timers, and the students shepherded me.

They had no ulterior motive. I could sense the genuineness in their care for me. That opened the way for the Lord to become so real to me.
Up to that point in my life, no one (including my parents) had ever told me that I was supposed to go to the Full-time Training in Anaheim (FTTA), CA. No one had given me a “recipe” of needing to go to college, get through Bible school, get a husband, go serve, and have children. Never. The Lord on the throne sovereignly arranged every situation in my life to get me to turn back to Him and restore my fellowship with the fellow members. I followed the Lord to the FTTA, and my life has not been the same ever since. In the FTTA the Lord gave me all the answers that I had been looking for. It was not Witness Lee. It was not this teacher or that teacher.

Yes, the Lord spoke through them and flowed out of them words of life, but I saw the Lord Himself. Day after day, as I read the pages of my Bible, I saw more and more of this Person, Jesus Christ. Each time a question or a doubt came up, I would grab a post-it note, mark it in my Bible or in one of my ministry books, and ask one of the trainers. I never left without an answer. Their transparency changed my life.

The brothers serving in FTTA and LSM are not hiding anything. Our trainers, the ones who have poured out their lives for us, are not hiding anything. The co-workers are not hiding anything. I witnessed that. I experienced it. I asked the uncomfortable questions. I wanted the why’s and the how’s. I wasn't going to take the word mingling just because it was in a ministry book. I had to research it. I had to find it in theological books. The more I knew about church history, the more I became reassured in the faith. When I interned for Defense and Confirmation Project (DCP) for 7 weeks, I asked the questions and respectfully let them know my doubts. The brothers serving there cared for me, loved me, and took me under their umbrella. They answered my questions, and all I received from them was life. DCP is not hiding anything.

Now, I am a serving one. Never did I ever think my life would turn out the way that it has, but the Lord has me exactly where He wants me. No one – not LSM, not the FTTA, not the brothers from DCP, not one brother or sister – has ever told me that my sole purpose in life is to drop all of my hopes and dreams, take care of children, and just serve the brothers. That accusation against the local churches has caused me much trouble in my being. According to my experience and observation, this accusation is simply not true. I serve because I have a burden to give all of my time to the Lord and to the brothers and sisters in the local churches. I serve because the One whom I have seen, the glorious vision, will not have me anywhere else. When He calls me to this or that, I will pick up and go. That’s it. We follow the Lamb. Here is a quote from brother Witness Lee in the book The Glorious Vision and the Way of the Cross: “Everyone who serves the Lord must have a glorious vision. It is not the seeing that is glorious; rather, it is the object which we see that is glorious. This in turn makes the seeing itself glorious. This is what we mean by a glorious vision.”

My dear brothers and sisters, we can be either joining a movement or following the glorious vision, which is Christ Himself. If anyone is outwardly following a set of regulations or feel that they have to “check off a box” by serving, then their vision is not clear. In a class named “Life and Service” a brother shared something that will never leave me: “God saved us not only so that we will be saved from eternal perdition. We have been saved to serve the living and eternal God.” That has never left me. It was not because I was being controlled by an organization or because I was brainwashed by one man that I decided to serve the Lord.

It isn't that I'm better than the person next to me. The ones who serve are not an elite group, and we are not better or higher than anyone else. The dealings are there. The shining is there, but so is the love. I have received support emotionally, mentally, and spiritually from so many of the co-workers and elders and their wives. I have been welcomed with listening ears. I don't live in a utopia, nor am I an idealist to think that there is never anything wrong in the local churches.

The purpose of this post is not to speak of anything other than my positive experience being in the local churches and to stand with my fathers who are being attacked. There are many more of us who have received the boundless support, life, care, and supply from the co-workers, from the brothers serving in FTTA, from the serving ones, and from the ministry produced by our brothers Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. We hold the Bible as the sole authority and the breath of God.

But we can also not deny the riches of the ministry of our brothers. In the words of one of the co-workers in the July 2019 semiannual training, “Do not steal my food away from me.” Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, the ministering brothers, and the leading ones and serving ones in the local churches are my fathers who have fed me the spiritual food.

Some may not agree, but this is where I have found the riches. I finish this testimonial by thanking all of my fathers. Thank you for your labor in the Lord. I stand with you, my fathers.

"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord."

There's a lot here to deconstruct, starting with "My father found his human spirit in 1994". But the short of it is, there are people who find reasons to join, and to stay. But to me that's somewhat akin to people coming out of the Soviet Gulag, some say, "It's not utopia, but you get 3 meals and a bed." Fine, but look at all the testimonies, not just the ones who found it tolerable. And note the loaded terms on the supposedly positive testimony: 'steal' and 'accusations' and 'attack'. There's no basis to form an opinion from this one testimony.

Similarly, there's a thing called the Stockholm Syndrome, and there's also a phenomenon where released prisoners will commit crimes and deliberately get caught, to return to the penitentiary, simply because they simply can't handle it 'outside'. You really have to look at the gamut of human experience to make sense of anyone's story. And there are a lot of testimonies that run quite differently from the one quoted above.

A last related point - different local churches are quite different in tenor. Some are run by strong-armed programme zealots. Some are run by mild and pleasant people who cushion the demands of HQ. Obviously church members will have different experiences in different places. Again, a number of viewpoints are equally valid for those sharing them.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

For those who chose to stay in the recovery in spite of knowing that not all of what is in the ministry is "good" and in spite of recognizing many of the "traditions" and ways of living may be un-biblical or not-the-norm, what made you stay? Was it the Christian family that you now have that motivated you to stay? Did the Lord specifically lead you to stay? Or did you just not want to start over alone? I'm having many doubts but also whenever I think of staying I feel like I want to but at the same time know that I might live a sort of "double life" if I stay in the recovery. If I leave, I know that my identity will be gone for a very, very long time, and that's not even touching the loneliness aspect.

Since I'm not someone who chose to stay, I'm not qualified to answer your main question, but I just wanted to affirm that the loss of identity as well as the loneliness aspect is very, very real. Leaving a group like the LC, which has taken great pains to make its whole sphere fill the majority of it's members' lives, is like losing your whole life. Really. Almost every nook and cranny of your life will change. I understand how deceptive SO MANY of the teachings and doctrines in the local church are, and I am assured without a doubt that they use known mind-controlling techniques. I know this and can see it in black and white and make 1-to-1 direct connections between the known techniques of groups like this and the specifics of how the local church carries it out, but I STILL wish sometimes I could go back and have that feeling of belonging and understanding that comes with knowing the names and faces and lives and cues and norms of the group. I grew up in it. It's like losing your whole family and the country you grew up in and the language you spoke all at once.

Mannnnnnny saints in the LC live a double life. They have to. It's how human beings have to cope with what they are trapped in.

If you leave, all I can say is do your best to have some kind of network of friends/acquaintances outside the LC who know what you are doing and will be in your life. I understand that the LC makes sure people DON'T have close connections outside of it, and I might be making an impossible recommendation (I had very tenuous and new connections outside the LC when I left and it's been a beat-up journey for sure), but as much as is possible in these COVID-times, it helps greatly to have connections outside the LC that can fill in the significant gaps the LC leaves.

[Barnabas]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

For those who chose to stay in the recovery in spite of knowing that not all of what is in the ministry is "good" and in spite of recognizing many of the "traditions" and ways of living may be un-biblical or not-the-norm, what made you stay? Was it the Christian family that you now have that motivated you to stay? Did the Lord specifically lead you to stay? Or did you just not want to start over alone? I'm having many doubts but also whenever I think of staying I feel like I want to but at the same time know that I might live a sort of "double life" if I stay in the recovery. If I leave, I know that my identity will be gone for a very, very long time, and that's not even touching the loneliness aspect.

This is a personal question so I will try to answer it in a personal way. For me, I have not received a clear leading of the Lord to denounce the Lord’s Recovery movement. There are many things in it that I disagree with, but God has not made it clear that I should leave it. One former member tried very hard to convince me to leave; he exhorted me with wrong assumptions and accusations about me, and now it is hard to fellowship with him. Another Brother recently asked me if I was in or out and I found it very hard to answer. My answer was something like this: I don’t know, I don’t think I am part of the group, but I still love the saints and cannot say I am not related to them. Bottom line is that I still reach out to many to fellowship with them (mainly on the phone because of the present pandemic). Not many reach out to me, but this is typical, as most of their shepherding efforts are towards new ones.

So until (if ever) they cut me off I have no peace to cut myself off from the saints in that movement. However, I do not consider myself a member, just as I am not a member of any denomination, but my fellowship is with those in Christ, regardless of denomination.

Concerning their meetings I am finding it very difficult to attend. They are becoming more dead and formal to me, controlled by man’s ministry and agenda. You might say I am in a kind of wilderness, and seeking the Lord for a fellowship where Jesus Christ has absolute Lordship and the Spirit has absolute sovereignty. Meanwhile I am attending the church in Toronto via Zoom (not the original one or the LSM one, but a small group raised up by the Lord meeting as the church). As for now, I seem to fit right in because we all seem to love one another and Jesus Christ is exalted as Lord of All, not man. They do not seem to be exclusive and they appear to be genuinely seeking the Lord with a balance of personal devotion to the Lord and Body consciousness. Last night’s prayer meeting was so edifying to me I am still in a state of faith and love.

I hope this helps. Please feel free to contact me for fellowship.

[Sons to Glory!]

I think you are right where you need to be. Let the Lord show you what he wants! Love the saints, no matter what group they're in. Again, let the Anointing be your guide.

All groups have something sideways and the LC is no different. We all have the flesh. Period. While I left the LC/LSM group some time ago, and see various things that are problematic with it, it can be easy to fall into the trap of the accuser-of-the-brethren in going after these shortcomings. Our true ground of oneness is Christ alone, regardless of where we meet or the system we are in.

And the group you are meeting with in Toronto sounds real nice. Enjoy the fellowship there and be at peace! ("Be as wise as serpents and as gentle as doves.")

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

All groups have something sideways and the LC is no different. We all have the flesh. Period. While I left the LC/LSM group some time ago, and see various things that are problematic with it, it can be easy to fall into the trap of the accuser-of-the-brethren in going after these shortcomings. Our true ground of oneness is Christ alone, regardless of where we meet or the system we are in.

The LC IS quite different in the ways in which it is sideways. It is "no different" from other abusive groups, but is worlds different from healthy churches. A healthy church might have little offenses between members, might miss a few interpretations of some passages, might not provide a tailored gathering to every possible grouping of it's members, but the LC uses known mind control techniques, tells people if they leave then God will hurt, harm, or kill them, sues anyone who blinks wrongly at them, lies through their teeth, uses and abuses God's children, manipulates the truth, and doesn't care about anyone but their own or those who might get caught in their clutches. Their "being sideways" is WORLDS different from the ways many other churches are sideways. One is human mistakes, the other is willfull, repeated, unrepentant, slander-anyone-in-our-path violation of scripture and denial of the gospel even as they use words that sound like they are preaching the gospel.

Love those who are deceived and unhappy. Be careful and protect yourself from those who are deceived and love it, or who are deceived and know it, or who are deceived and deceive others.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The LC IS quite different in the ways in which it is sideways.

I suspected you (or a moderator) would probably get after that "sideways" thing! You take that definition and assumptions farther than I do. Do we know for sure that all these things you mentioned are present in his particular locality, and if they are, do we know to what degree? I was in some LC-related places that had little of all that and really no control that I could see . . .

So should Barnabas wait for the Lord to tell him or should he take someone's advice and bug-out yesterday? (and not saying the Lord couldn't also speak through a person . . .)

(BTW - I certainly agree with your last sentence to be careful!)