Struggling

[Elle]

Typing these thoughts and fears is a lot harder than I expected. I experienced probably a decade of beautiful life filled home meetings. The writings of WN and WL were there probably even driving this new normal church life but it always felt so life filled. There were times of blended meetings where we experienced a much more organized ritual filled meeting but it still felt right and we were in the flow. However, we moved and for the next twenty years never lived where there was a LC. My immersion in WL writings made it clear that Christ couldn't ever really use me if I wasn't a member of the one true body and I spend many tear filled nights wondering why I wasn't good enough. Then one day I was at a EM conference and suddenly all kinds of doubts and confusion set in. Of course I knew how wrong it was to raise questions and that was just division but... I just couldn't shake the reality that my eyes had been opened. I couldn't believe how the women were fan girling over EM. It seemed just like rock band groupies. Then he told a story that wasn't just not true about King George. Not a huge deal but a simple google search revealed it was not even possible. During lunch I realized I couldn't join in on prayers or fellowship because it felt as though everything was spoken from memory, a precise script with "Amens" thrown in over everything. The most jarring moment came when I went to speak with a brother I had known for 30 years and his reception can only be described as a shunning.

I had read all the books on shepherding and knew this was not happening to my family in our reception at many LC we visited. Then I found out about the mindbenders lawsuits, Daystar, PL and my heart broke. Ive packed up all my LSM materials and am rather confused as to where to go. I have been trained to now read anything not from LSM, but the real scary thing is struggling while reading my bible to be searching for footnotes. my daily struggle is how to balance what I am certain was life with the failings of the messenger.

Sorry, this feels so disjointed - I know my amazing savior will guide me through in truth but I am scared by how all encompassing this ministry is tangling its way all through my mind emotion and will when shouldn't it have just spread through out my spirit?


One last thing, as Ive watched my family still in the church rid themselves of all things Christmas, what is the deal with celebrating the Chinese New Year? On the threads here there is one image used frequently which I obviously can't read but is it something put out by LSM or just a stockphoto?

[Nell]

Hi Elle,

Welcome to the forum! We're going through some maintenance now, but I sent you a PM. You can read Private Messages by clicking the link in the upper right corner under the "Welcome, Elle" box.

I'm so sorry for your struggles. You are not alone. There are lots of folks just like you who need to make sense of what we went through. Your post was not "disjointed" at all. We've been there.

Again, welcome.

Nell

[SerenityLives]

Welcome Elle!
Thanks for sharing. You are not alone

[Trapped]

Hi Elle,

Welcome to the forum! Glad you still posted your introduction even as there is construction going on on the forum.

Since you have been associated with the local church for decades, your fears and worries are very normal to have, because they are the fears and worries that the teachings in the LC are designed to produce within people. But the Bible says fear is not of God, so that should be your first clue that the source of that fear (the teachings in the LC) should be investigated.

You said: "My immersion in WL writings made it clear that Christ couldn't ever really use me if I wasn't a member of the one true body and I spend many tear filled nights wondering why I wasn't good enough."

This is a good example, so let's look into it a little more closely.

The Bible uses the human body as a metaphor for the body of Christ. If I, Trapped, am alive, then the members of my body are also alive. The members of my body (arms, hands, individual fingers, torso, legs, feet, eyes, ears, lips, etc) have the life of Trapped. The only way the members aren't useful is if they no longer have Trapped's life animating them, i.e. if they are dead.

Okay. If you have the life of Christ, if you have genuinely confessed Jesus Christ as Lord and trust in Him as your Savior, then you have His life. You are a member of the Body with the life of Christ within you. Period. And if Christ is alive, then the members of His body, including you, are also alive. The only way you aren't useful is if you no longer have Christ's life in you, but that's a no-go. Our salvation is secure, and Christ in us does not come and go once we are saved. The Bible says we have passed from death into life. It says he who has the Son has the life. Do you have the Son? Then you have the life. If you have the life, then you are a living part of His Body. There are no other requirements to be part of the Body of Christ. Not "meeting as" something, not reading WL materials, not following "the ministry", not gathering only with local church believers but not other believers. Even if you spend the next 20 years not in an LC locality, you are a member of the one true body, because the one true body is just all the ones who have His life. The one true body has nothing to do with any parameters the local church tries to set.

The Spirit within other genuine Christians is the same Spirit within any genuine Christians in the local church. There is not a high quality Spirit or a low quality Spirit, a superior One and an inferior One. The one that lives within local church members is the same Spirit that lives within any other regenerated Christian on this earth. That's the one true body. It's much larger than the local church lets on.

I'm a church kid, and I used to have about 8-10 set lines I would rotate through whenever I was put on the spot to pray. I always got many groaning amens in return, because I learned how to play the game, how to say the right words, how to inflect with just the right tone. But it didn't mean anything to me. There is script from memory, and there is a cadence of prayer that everyone in the LC inherently follows. Somehow praying to get amens doesn't quite seem to be how Jesus instructed us how to pray in Matthew.

Did the brother who had known you over 30 years shun you because you had been in a non-LC city for 20 years? Shunning, turning a cold shoulder, treating people differently because they aren't "part of the group" is a known characteristic of churches on the cult spectrum. The local churches unequivocally qualify to be called, at a minimum, "an abusive church", if not a full-blown cult.

Other posters here may get tired of me recommending this, but I've got to recommend to you what I've recommended to others here: read books on spiritual abuse. I totally understand what you mean about struggling reading your bible and the footnotes. For me, reading about spiritual abuse, and how Jesus and God get angry at the people who act a whole lot like the co-workers and elders in the local church, helped me to see the Bible in a whole new light and be on guard against anything that tries to steal peace and rest from me. Jesus laid His life down for us, we are secure in His sacrifice, and His yoke and His burden on us are easy and light. The fear, worry, "not good enough" stuff from the local church, that binds up so many men and women made in the image of God, has nothing to do with the Father God or with His Son.

The two books I would recommend the most are:

-The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnsen and VanVonderen
-Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue

Is what I've said so far been okay for you to hear? I'd like to say something regarding your comment about the ministry being all through your soul when it should just be spread throughout your spirit, but I don't want to overwhelm you on the first post. I know you are struggling. You are a normal part of a growing group of people who are suffocating in the local church. It may have been a healthier place decades ago, but that time has long since passed. If you feel like writing more, please do so.

Trapped

[countmeworthy]

Welcome Ellie
Jesus said, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. (Hebrews 13:5). Some translations say “I will never abandon you”.

The LC will forsake you, will abandon you if you don’t toe the WL line. Jesus never lies. He can be trusted. The LC cannot be trusted. They have convinced people to read Née and Lee’s teachings for understanding and interpretation of God’s Word. They have elevated Lee much like the Catholics have elevated the pope.

God is also not the author of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33. He is the Author of Peace. Does the LC give you or anyone peace?

Learn to trust the Holy Spirit of Jesus for He is your Helper and Comforter. HE will teach you all things. Here is the scripture: John 14:26. The Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and remind you of all that I (Jesus) said to you.

You will receive a lot of support here. Many people have received emotional and spiritual healing through Christ Who is using this forum to assure people there is life and love and peace for those who have left or want to leave the grip of the LSM/LC.
May God comfort you and give you rest.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Elle

.... I am scared by how all encompassing this ministry is tangling its way all through my mind emotion and will when shouldn't it have just spread through out my spirit?

Wow, this is a great insight. No-one has ever stated this so clearly before. I believe that the ministry of Nee and Lee is into the soul and not the spirit. Your spirit was ignored, depleted and starved. 'Exercising your spirit' doesn't involve your spirit, but in fact was all directed on: brainwashing your mind, arousing and manipulating your emotion, and crushing your will. Mind, emotion and will being, as you have indicated, the components of the soul, not the spirit.

LC spiritual jargon aside, they were really messing around in your soul, and any benefit to your spirit was insofar as Scripture and genuine prayer was involved. Not their 'proprietary' doctrines.


This is one of the main mechanics of the deception welded in the LC.

[Trapped]

Since Curious touched on the soul/spirit thing, I'll say what I was going to say about your statement: "I am scared by how all encompassing this ministry is tangling its way all through my mind emotion and will when shouldn't it have just spread through out my spirit?"

There is a well-known cult expert named Steven Hassan (he wrote the book "Combatting Cult Mind Control", among others) who created what he calls the "BITE model". BITE stands for:

B - behavior
I - information
T - thought
E - emotion

These are four areas that controlling, unhealthy groups use to control people. Unhealthy, abusive groups use certain tactics to control their members' behavior, control information, control how the members think, and control members' emotions.

Notice that if your behavior, thought, and emotions are controlled......that's your whole soul (if we take Lee's teaching that the mind/emotion/will comprise the soul). Behavior can correspond to will (how you decide or choose to behave), thoughts correspond to mind, and emotions of course correspond to emotions.

All of these BITE tactics can be found in the local church. All of them can be found in the ministry and/or are spoken by the co-workers. The full details can be found at Steven Hassan's site here: https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

You'll notice that there are some severe examples listed, such as kidnapping, beating, etc. Not all the examples will apply. If you want me to provide some specific examples (i.e. call out some that apply and provide the LC parallel, let me know and I'll be happy to do so if it helps clarify what I'm saying). But there are more than enough that DO apply that let us know what's going on in the LC.

They use known psychologically controlling tactics.

That's not the genuine church.

So the reason it all feels tangled up in you is because it was designed to be that way. Which means it will take some time, some effort, some frustration, some failing, some learning, some realizing, and some re-wiring for it to get untangled and pulled out of you. There are a lot of teachings in the local church that desperately need to be tossed out because they are causing real, current, deep, and repeated distress to saints inside of it even as I type this and as you read it.

The flip side of this is also that we are human beings created with a mind. God has a mind, and we were created in His image. We are not supposed to get out of our mind, or have things happen in our spirit while our mind is left unattended. Our minds are made to be lit up, switched on, active, running, whirring, processing, and all the more so when we are involved in spiritual activities. Man is a living soul, not a living spirit. Our soul is supposed to be operational. If two people passed by you on the street, and you overheard one of them say to the other "yeah, my boss is out of his mind".....that's not a compliment about his boss. Someone "being out of their mind" is not a good thing.

And it's not a good thing for us either. As believers we are called to discern, to test, to hold teachings up to scripture, to be sober-minded, to be on guard for wolves. We can only do this if our mind is involved along with our spirit.

[NZexCK]

Thanks for sharing.

I can relate to the women fan girling over whatever elder or co worker was taking the conference. I always found that repulsive. Now that WL is gone, the co workers are talked about with reverence instead.

I love how you have expressed the part about the ministry being tangled all through your mind emotion and will. This also explains how I feel at times and when you put it that way it helped me realise how fake it all is in the LR. Always going on about our great need to exercise our spirit but really just manipulating our soul in the process.

[Elle]

I want to thank everyone for their comments and help. I am trying to process all my thoughts right now and sorting them out into something that isn't just a jumble of random thoughts.
I have one of the books about mind control ordered - thanks for the suggestion.
One thing that really struck me about reading JI thoughtful and precise writing about the PL situation was just how controlled it was. I think it doesn't just reflect on him being a child of God but his writing to a man who was volatile, an egomaniac and able to twist any words. When I write my Christmas newsletter I know there are certain family members who will twist and see the negative in anything so I am very careful about each word and that is what really struck me about his writing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Elle

One thing that really struck me about reading JI thoughtful and precise writing about the PL situation was just how controlled it was.

When I write my Christmas newsletter I know there are certain family members who will twist and see the negative in anything so I am very careful about each word and that is what really struck me about his writing.

Elle, I felt the same way about JI, and he changed my own views in many ways.

Pray the Lord will bless you with wisdom as you write.

[Robert]

Hello, Elle and other saints!

I am new as Elle here. When I read your posts I remaind one dear brother from S America. He lives now on anther continent. He is so lovely and so drawn by ministry! But... God is so graceful and is leading him by His own way. In city where he stays with wife and another couple he wanted to have a Lord's Table memory. And just guess what brothers from another city said? "no, for now there is a little of You, no big lamp stand and no big testimony of church"." What?!!!" he siad. Seriosly? So lovely brother! He did not gave up! He broke a brad and took a cup of vine and celebrate oneness with his wife. Right now I write this with tears on my cheeks. Later he ordered banner and started preach a gospel on street. How much it is different from LR practices. May Lord bless them. Elle! Do not affraid man! Read and read Bible! I use to give pictuere of bread we know now. When You put leaven to flour it makes bread bigger by empty space/cells. So now what You have to do is just press what You had use to think bread is and relief empty air. I see You have some experience of what is life and what is death. Not everything You heard or experienced in LC was wrong. We have to realize what is real and flat unleavened pancake and what was chinese philosophy and false doctrines. Let me give You one example as my testimony. Before I met LR I had already experience of pray reading. I think all genuine Christaians have this experience. I was reading my Bible many times with open heart and spirit, and then some verses jumped out andshocked me and unveiled me some reality! Crying and praying. I was repeating them again and again! This is beatiful! But let say, I want to share with this with others thinking "oh, what a revelation! and will write a book. I will tell You that U have to repeat and repeat verses, then you can touch them. No way!!!! It does not work this way! It is up to Holly Spirit!!! God knows which word we can understand and receive for each day! The only technique I can make and teaching is: be open and pray, read the Bible as often as You can and wait and enjoy!!! No repeatition , no Ameeeeeeen! No help from footnotes!!! Just read! There is Jesus! This word will lead You! I know that many, many saints have this experiience. Some truths we will understand after 20 years!!!! You can not just produce soldiers and blind followers just because they repeat after RK or JD or MC word by word ! Heavenly Kingdom does not work like this! LR replaced Holly Spirit with "sevenfold spirit" which is never mentioned in Bible!!!! This is real deception. It is not a joke! later You can see friuts. So the main problem for us is, that there is real flour, some real Christ followers and saints we love. But if we want grow up and be faithfull to the Lord we have to make decision: Churcha life or Jesus Christ. I can say that they are Church worshipers! This is heresy! Never and nowhere Jesus said that if we deny Church He will deny us! Hi is the center! He is the bridegroom! Yes, yes, You know this language Elle! And this is exactely Satans masterpiece! So universal language is biblical language. Read KJV or ASB(?) or any other Bible without footnotes. Enjoy Jesus. Like psam119. Be lover of His Word! This is like clean currenttap water cleanning from dirties of flase teaching. Let Jesus do this work. Have personal contract with Him. Tell Him everything and about all Your worries! He is faithful! If this is possible met with all saint You can! if You feel death run away. If You have some vital relationship go there! May Lord Jesus give You peace in Your heart. Follow life! Jesus is Your Savior not church. Not church is Your ark but only Christ! Let be found in Him! God bless You till the rest of your days!

[Robert]

And one more thing! I found on YT cassette with JI sharing or meeting in 1978. If You ror anybody have no alergy for "Ameeeeen!" I do recommend to listing this. He was fallen in love in this vision of oneness. That is so pity that WL and others were not open for fellowship. He warned how this will end. He was so full of love that he could name things in general way not affecting saints. But if we have no spiritual growth then we will never understand spiritual realm. Over 20 yeras they never gave any detail what was that division about!!! Now I see. If that was about life versus religion I vote for Life! Too long, too much, too religious way. Stop! No sorry, no appoligise, no humility? Always best? Saitns do not read the Bible! they say read the Bible, but Pope says the same but general teaching is leading other way! One sentence: read the Bible, and then 8 sentences about dgesting, foootnotes, staying on brothers shoulders, etc. only to not read independently!!! "Oh, You know, read Bible, but without footnotes yOu will never understand. but what John 14 says? Jesus will send Holly Spirit which remaind all He said and will glorify Him! Not Church! I am tired for now. God bless You!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Elle

Typing these thoughts and fears is a lot harder than I expected. I experienced probably a decade of beautiful life filled home meetings. The writings of WN and WL were there probably even driving this new normal church life but it always felt so life filled. There were times of blended meetings where we experienced a much more organized ritual filled meeting but it still felt right and we were in the flow. However, we moved and for the next twenty years never lived where there was a LC. My immersion in WL writings made it clear that Christ couldn't ever really use me if I wasn't a member of the one true body and I spend many tear filled nights wondering why I wasn't good enough.

Elle - you talked about good experience with the home meetings, but then you moved away. What was your gathering experience after you moved away? Did you ever do home gatherings with other Christians after you moved or go to a church . . . or what was your experience?

[Elle]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Elle - you talked about good experience with the home meetings, but then you moved away. What was your gathering experience after you moved away? Did you ever do home gatherings with other Christians after you moved or go to a church . . . or what was your experience?

Well there were two moves with different answers.
1. We were close enough to go to blended meetings every month or so.
2. There was no LC within 5 hours on second move. We began attending a local denomination for awhile. Probably my own lc issues made this complicated. We had 5 teenagers at the time and the youth groups were basically social networks and my husband and I were very frustrated by this. Then we became Easter/Christmas attendees and felt alone.

I readily admit the alter calls each service and offering pleading became stumbling blocks to me and my own judgment about how “lacking “ the messages were compared to WL. We are currently looking now that I’ve fully accepted leaving the lc.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Elle

Well there were two moves with different answers.
1. We were close enough to go to blended meetings every month or so.
2. There was no LC within 5 hours on second move. We began attending a local denomination for awhile. Probably my own lc issues made this complicated. We had 5 teenagers at the time and the youth groups were basically social networks and my husband and I were very frustrated by this. Then we became Easter/Christmas attendees and felt alone.

I readily admit the alter calls each service and offering pleading became stumbling blocks to me and my own judgment about how “lacking “ the messages were compared to WL. We are currently looking now that I’ve fully accepted leaving the lc.

It's tough when you don't know that there are many good and rich sources out there. That is, authors/believers having fresh experiences of Christ who are not part of the LC. The idea that nobody else has "the goods" like the LC just isn't true!

However, to be sure, not all that many see God's eternal purpose of Him living in and through man. And it's pretty rare to hear someone talk about Christ being one with a believer's spirit as the focus of, and the ability to live, the New Covenant. Also the truth of dying to self to experience His resurrection life is something not heard a whole lot. BUT, if you look, seek and pray, my experience is He will lead you to these fresh sources and those who fellowship regarding these truths.

[Robert]

HI, Elle!

If I can add just two cents worth in here?

I would like to share with my experience and warn You in your research. I was in LR over 20 few years. I saw many thing are wrong year by year but still hoping that what I see is not exactly what I see. According to WN and WL behavior and testimony. W e have to be careful if we judge in our spirit and with love. I am in place now were nothing about them will shock me. Why? Simply, I am sinner! I am man! Some years ago I fell and was watching movies which child of god should not watch. I am in flesh and all desires and lost is known to me. Last year I almost betrayed my wife! But Holly Spirit saved me in this dark situation. I had to confess my sin and really pay spiritual price. Some times enemy can arrange even that lady will jump to bad temptation and wanting sex! I am faithful husband loving my Christian wife. But only other brother can understand how big trap is our flesh! Nothing happened at that time but I can confess that later Satan was attacking me in thought many times. That was very precious lesson. After that, I can understand, that Satan will do anything to corrupt saints. I feel that I woul commit suicide if it come to betraying. Of course my thought were so sinful enough to suffer from the enemy. But what I want to say that is is not the point to pull out to daily light others sin. If You was so fallen in love in ministry and blind and thinking that WL or WN was your hero brothers, saint of saints and special vessels... Sorry. They were simply people like me and You. I do not defend them and I do not accuse them. If this is what You need to learn about them and be healed from deception then Ok. Read, make research. But look at You heart and attitude. Let's say I have very precious thing to share for brothers. So after I sin all my experience have to be thrown away? One basic thing: They were not perfect, they can not be object of worship, they were fallen man together with me and You including. So just be aware of spirit and You attitude. Watch Your heart. In my opinion, the fruit is clear. There is probably somewhere here my sharing about this sentence of WL.

Any way, His line and vision was not according God heart. I can prove it by his own words where he manipulate saints. So if this is part of Your growth, that is ok. Search, ask, and make home work. But heart is most important. And last thing. As others shared here recommending names and books, let me also recommend You one brother among many others. His name is Zac Poonen fro India. You can find many same visions and revelation as in WL and WN teaching. So You see that not one these two brothers was the only and special vessels. And what gave me kind of rest there is simplicity in teaching. He is so general that it is almost impossible to argue with him. And what is mark of God servant? His teaching will never bring glory o him self. And after many years fruit will be good to eat. If You are able to exercise spirit and gain some encouragement try also David Wilkerson and Paul Washer. You will always find some piece of something not clear or wrong. But generally they burn in Holly Spirit in many sermons. And the same as with others it is not the pint to swallow everything. But listen and exercise spirit. You will be surprised how good food there is in so called " corrupted "Christianity"! God Bless You !

[Robert]

Check it in Your spirit if John was burning for oneness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nt8RdSSHEUk&t=21s
https://lordsrecovery.us/MiscAccusationsCH2.pdf

All these thing was secret in Europe! No detailes only general warnings!
Try to listen till the end of tape however quality of record is low.
However I have allergy now for all this "Ameeen!" I can not refuse what resonance it creates in my heart! He saw danger of what is going on. I would like to meet or get to know some saints who was close to John.
Any way I hope to see at Jesus' feet all such a faithful brothers and sisters!
So what was all this rebellion about? Try to find out by Your self!

[Elle]

Originally Posted by Robert

HI, Elle! If I can add just two cents worth in here? I would like to share with my experience and warn You in your research. I was in LR over 20 few years. I saw many thing are wrong year by year but still hoping that what I see is not exactly what I see. According to WN and WL behavior and testimony. W e have to be careful if we judge in our spirit and with love. I am in place now were nothing about them will shock me. Why? Simply, I am sinner! I am man!....

Robert thank you for your caution. I respect and have been in prayer that my heart is truly on the Lord. I have experienced a particular experience of sexual misconduct (not in the LC) but admonishments from the church have been quite crippling and destructive for my family. Because of this WN and WL response and behavior are of interest to me and the details matter in moving forward with my children.