POLL: What is the Greatest Error of WL & LC?

[Sons to Glory!]

This question has come up a few times, so I thought maybe we could do a poll around what everyone thinks is the greatest error of Witness Lee and/or the Local Churches.

Here are the errors, to start with, that I've seen mentioned on this forum:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny

What's your vote for the one biggest error, and maybe a runner-up error? Feel free to suggest any others not listed here.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

3. The Ground of Locality - elitism

Having studied the RCC, the Plymouth Brethren, and the Recovery, each developed a distorted practice of oneness to condemn all others, justifying in some cases the most horrible of atrocities. It's way beyond elitism, pride, and arrogance. It provides a license of evil and unrighteousness under the cloak of biblical spirituality and authority. It becomes a foundational vindication for all manner of evil to enter the church.

[Davis]

8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"

[Nell]

13. Hypocrisy

[jigsaw44]

Highest of all violations- divine heresy in the worship of doctrine
- Exalting Doctrine-Prioritizing the doctrine of man to be the standard over the word of God. Judging the value of certain books of the bible based on its accordance to the doctrine of Witness Lee.
- Doctrine Manipulation- Using doctrine to violate scripture in order to manipulate church members to conformity and manipulation.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Nell

13. Hypocrisy

What about my #13?

Hypocrisy didn't make the cut? It is the fourth post.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

What about my #13?

Hypocrisy didn't make the cut? It is the fourth post.

Nell

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

[Sons to Glory!]

I thought to line-up some things in an outline form (as mentioned in my last post) to organize things under a few main errors, but at this moment have no peace to do so. If someone else wants to take a crack at it . . .

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

I agree that WL's biggest error was his MOTA doctrine and the authoritarian structure and practices that flowed from that. Item 9. "Central control while preaching local autonomy" flowed from the MOTA doctrine, for example.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So sorry, I missed that too! Thanks for bringing it up and I'll reorder the list to reflect that. Now we have an even twenty:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny
13. Hypocrisy
14. Preaching a different gospel
15. Preaching a different Jesus
16. Unwillingness to listen & practice the Golden Rule
17. Funky yellow interlocking chairs
18. Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth
19. The concept of "Recovery"
20. Killing critical thinking/self reflection*

The next step, I think, is to see if we can do an outline list of a handful of main errors that many of the others were a result of. (I'm wondering if those funky yellow interlocking chairs might actually be a main one . . . )

Main errors to me might be:
> MOTA (I see many things this probably produced)
> Ground of oneness teaching - elitism (many things here too)
> Teaching of God's governmental authority on the earth (could be under MOTA)
> Preaching different gospel & different Jesus? (this also might fall under MOTA)

21. Smear Campaigns
22. Absence of giving/practicing grace. Instead The Lords Recovery relies on items 4,5,& 10.
A follow up poll question (heretical teachings aside), how many ex-LCERS would still be meeting with a local church if it was not for:
Disparaging Christianity
Suing other Christians
Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
Smear Campaigns

[SerenityLives]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This question has come up a few times, so I thought maybe we could do a poll around what everyone thinks is the greatest error of Witness Lee and/or the Local Churches.

Here are the errors, to start with, that I've seen mentioned on this forum:

1. MOTA claim - minister of the age
2. Man becomes God teaching
3. The Ground of Locality - elitism
4. Disparaging Christianity
5. Suing other Christians
6. WL brand of Modalism
7. MorningStar RV manufacturing debacle
8. Hiding the truth - sweeping serious issues "under the rug"
9. Central control while preaching local autonomy
10. Practice of quarantining and/or shunning
11. Chanting mindlessly
12. Misogyny

What's your vote for the one biggest error, and maybe a runner-up error? Feel free to suggest any others not listed here.

I think most of these errors have to do with one trait- unwillingness to listen and treating others as you want them to treat you (golden rule). With compassion. But yes, agree with Nell with Hypocrisy and also number 10, shunning.

[Sons to Glory!]

Well that's interesting - starting out with not much consensus! Let's see how it goes once more of the "old-timers" chime in . . .

[UntoHim]

The fact that it was so easy to create a list of 12 errors of the Local Church of Witness Lee speaks volumes, and pretty much tells you about all you need to know about Witness Lee and the little religion of the Lord's Recovery that he invented. Given some more time, I'm quite sure that the list could be expanded to 20 or more.

What's the greatest error? Well the greatest error for one person might not be the greatest for another. As a brother in the Local Church of Witness Lee, I never gave misogyny much thought. Treating women/sisters as second class saints came pretty natural. I certainly never thought that it was some kind of error. Of course I never bothered to ask my wife or daughters

In my experience and observation for 40+ years I would say the greatest error would be Lee's teachings regarding the nature and character of God. If you get these wrong, one really doesn't know God after all. And if you don't know God then you don't know the Lord Jesus Christ. And if you don't know the Lord Jesus Christ then you don't know his Word. And if you don't know his Word then it is easy to fall into the errors on this list, and many others.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

What's the greatest error? Well the greatest error for one person might not be the greatest for another.

In my experience and observation for 40+ years I would say the greatest error would be Lee's teachings regarding the nature and character of God.

It is interesting that most everyone, at least so far, has chosen something different. I'm sure that's because of all our individual experiences. And the different localities we were in is another reason as some adhered more closely to Anaheim and had varying degrees of common LC practices, etc.

I must say that when I first read Ohio's response, that the OCOC Elitism was the biggest thing (since many other erroneous things flowed out of that teaching), I didn't agree. But upon further thought, I think there may be something to this. From this doctrine, we in the LC got more than a little puffed-up. Then, if one thinks they got the market cornered on something foundational like that, they might tend to think the one preaching it must be the MOTA. And as you set this one up on a pedestal, it really goes to their head and they start thinking their teachings are all the more special. Then other Christian groups seem greatly diminished, so you don't respect them and start disparaging them and taking them to court! Yikes!

Hmmm Ohio, you may be unto something here . . .

Think about it, if the OCOC teaching hadn't been elevated so much, much of the other stuff might not have followed. It could have been, "We think we've seen something interesting in scripture about Christian oneness, but it's not something to be emphasized or pushed on others. Only the Lord can create true oneness (and He has) so we must look to Him and not this doctrine. Therefore let's fellowship and seek Him together!"

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Hmmm Ohio, you may be unto something here . . .

Having studied church history and the Bible, perhaps it has allowed me to see what were the initial errors that opened the door for all the others to creep in. At the root of it all is pride and the lust for power. What was the initial false teaching that allowed all the others?

Consider the RCC, "the authorized catholic oneness church." Don't you think that there were many godly and learned brothers within her, over centuries time, that saw the errors of papalism, Mary-worship, saint adoration, transubstantiation, idolatry, formulaic liturgy, priesthood class, celibacy, monasticism, confessionals, purgatory, inquisitions, tortures, the list of evils is endless, but ... they were silenced by the notion that they alone were the only true church of God. They did not want to violate the oneness and the authority of the church! They were silenced by the fear of being marked out for "making divisions," the unforgivable sin.

Same thing happened to the Brethren. Darby used oneness to cut off those perceived to be rivals. Darby taught that the "ground of unity" was the common judgment of evil. Huh? He became a worse pope than the one in Rome because it was he alone who "defined evil," and held everyone in fear of violating the oneness. So parallel to oneness is the falsity that the church always has "one man" for every move of God. This so-called leader uses the oneness, and the oneness maintains the leader's power base.

During our quarantines, I heard "all the brothers are one except Titus Chu." Isolate potential rivals in the minds of your adherents, and then maintain control on all information. Darby also used this tactic on B.W. Newton, and then on George Mueller -- isolate and destroy with endless tracts. The RCC used this so successfully that much of "actual" church history is only known by "reverse engineering" what the RCC wrote. After the Pope ordered the slaughter of whole communities of believers located often in little mountain hamlets, no one was alive to write their side of the story.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

As a brother in the Local Church of Witness Lee, I never gave misogyny much thought. Treating women/sisters as second class saints came pretty natural. I certainly never thought that it was some kind of error. Of course I never bothered to ask my wife or daughters
-

UntoHim, I believe society has misused and misapplied the word misogyny. How many people bothered to look up the definition? It's as if misogyny became some sort of utility or catch phrase against a man or group of men. Here is the definition.

Misogyny - hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women

What brother hates his mom, hates his sister, hates his spouse, or hates his daughter? Rather if a brother hates women or has contempt of women, why would he want to be married in the first place?
Does the word being used fit the actual definition or should another word and it’s definition be more aptly suited to The Recovery Movement?

I propose another word instead, sexism. I’ve heard many a message where the speaking brother is sexist in his prejudice or attitude.

Sexism – 1. prejudice or discrimination based on sex
2. behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex

Those of you who have met with churches outside the LSM affiliation,. what is your experience? How are sisters revered when compared to LC/LSM practices?

Are sisters not part of the Body of Christ? In regard to sisters in general, I present these verses:

1 Corinthians 12: 12-27
Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.
Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. If they were all one part, where would the body be? As it is, there are many parts, but one body.
The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!” On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.
Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

UntoHim, I believe society has misused and misapplied the word misogyny. How many people bothered to look up the definition? It's as if misogyny became some sort of utility or catch phrase against a man or group of men. Here is the definition.

Misogyny - hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women

What brother hates his mom, hates his sister, hates his spouse, or hates his daughter? Rather if a brother hates women or has contempt of women, why would he want to be married in the first place?
Does the word being used fit the actual definition or should another word and it’s definition be more aptly suited to The Recovery Movement?

I propose another word instead, sexism. I’ve heard many a message where the speaking brother is sexist in his prejudice or attitude.

That's a good observation I think! Yes, the world likes to go to extremes and categorize accordingly, doesn't it? It is quick to label things as "hate"- if you don't condone a certain behavior, it gets labeled as hate and the person a hater.

Hate and outright sexism are just manifestations of the flesh. And, let's face it, we all have these propensities in the flesh. But hallelujah, we've been given a new nature of love, joy and peace in Christ!

[Trapped]

Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

As UntoHim said, the very fact that a list this long, that can easily be made much longer, can be created speaks volumes already.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

Not sure what came first - the idea of "Recovery" or "The Ground of Oneness." Maybe someone with better knowledge of LC origins could address that.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Interesting responses and thoughts so far. I am not writing this borne from serious and deep thought, but possibly simply the whole concept of "recovery" is (one of the) biggest issues. Or maybe, to be more specific, a recovery being with a specific group.

From "recovery" we get all the myriad teachings that "only we see" (ground of locality, MOTA, and all the unique yet errant teachings that come from it to keep tickling the ears of the congregants, as PriestlyScribe showed so well on that other thread with the quote from F.B. Hole), from which we get elitism, speciality, isolation, justification to cover wrongdoing in order to maintain "the unique recovery", etc....

As UntoHim said, the very fact that a list this long, that can easily be made much longer, can be created speaks volumes already.

This one is right up there. The whole idea of a "restored" or "recovered" church. Look up "One True Church" or "Restored Church" or similar words on a Google search and you get dozens of hits. A lot of people have successfully used this dodge. Divide and conquer.

Even the "Reformation" is suspect in my eyes, and I'm a card-carrying Born Again Baptist. All these people getting visions of recovery or reformation or restoration bring further splinter cells and alienation. Even the EOC is a splinter cell - read on the Chalcedon Conference some time. They were splitting hairs and splitting assemblies long before Martin Luther came along.

Either God raised Jesus from the dead, or not. The gospel preached by Peter on Pentecost morning was a simple one. Either his narrative, his witness is true, or it isn't. That's where faith comes in. Either you believe it (because you want to) or you don't (because you don't want to). It's a personal journey. Don't impose your 'vision' on others. That is not the gospel message. The gospel (to me) is that Jesus lowered himself to nothing, and through his humbling we're reconciled, restored, both to God and to one another. Everything that needed recovery was done on the cross, and in the grave. The empty tomb was a witness, and the angels reminded the astonished entrants of this simple fact. "He is not here - he is risen"

[LoveHim&HearHim]

Usurpation of the Headship of Christ

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Col. 1: 13-20


I realize this was not one of the 12 items in your list but I feel that all 12 items you listed have its root problem due to the usurpation of the headship of Christ.

[Curious]

You know I was thinking, the core or original error might just be the seperation from the established denominations and forming a Christian Church in China that had no accountability or connection to any balanced Christian group. Doing this too soon, without having learned much foundational lessons needed before branching off and seperating themselves.

If they had moved towards autonomy gradually, and experienced healthy accountability, (as many protestant denominations have had good systems of internal accountability), they could have grown into something valid and productive.

They became autonomous and independant to 'young', to immature, and too bound to Chinese culture and spirituality. In their rebellion, immaturity and cultural blinkers, they were bound to go astray in a multitude of ways. They missed figuring out what had really happened to cause denominations to be formed in the first place, judging them negatively but not giving it all deeper thought. And they had not dealt with pride, vanity, and egotism first. There was no internal checks and balances to keep things on track. It's therefore no surprise that the superior and exclusive spirit has risen up amongst them, as well as many other human vices.

Its their first steps that set them in a bad direction I'm thinking. Their history that is the first thing to blame.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by LoveHim&HearHim

Usurpation of the Headship of Christ

"For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: for by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also the head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross." Col. 1: 13-20


I realize this was not one of the 12 items in your list but I feel that all 12 items you listed have its root problem due to the usurpation of the headship of Christ.

I think you make a good point. Any time we move away from Him, there's really only one other source - the flesh. And no matter how good the thing seems that the flesh is doing, it's still not of Him. The world (of course) and the church are full of it! But God's one solution to all this was crucifixion, that Christ's life might be manifested.

Any way . . . once a focus is on anything other than Christ Himself, like a man or some "good" teaching, away we go - off snorkeling in the weeds!

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This question has come up a few times, so I thought maybe we could do a poll around what everyone thinks is the greatest error of Witness Lee and/or the Local Churches.
What's your vote for the one biggest error, and maybe a runner-up error? Feel free to suggest any others not listed here.

The biggest error of all is the new kind of Trinity that Nee invented in 1948 to make himself untouchable - a FALSE Trinity based only upon Authority and Submission. See Nigel Tomes article here.

P.S.

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by PriestlyScribe

The biggest error of all is the new kind of Trinity that Nee invented in 1948 to make himself untouchable - a FALSE Trinity based only upon Authority and Submission. See Nigel Tomes article here

Actually, I don't want to deal with such nonsense any more. But who is Nigel Tomes? And which article?

... Okay, I found it. Fascinating what Nee is explaing here. A bit speculative, but that's the whole doctrine of the Trinity anyway. The Bible knows why it does NOT formulate a Trinitarian doctrine. The author's attempt to contrast subordination with love is very poor. In the bible we have both in harmony.

In my view, the LC's biggest mistake: to consider itself a church. I've already explained that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by PeterG

In my view, the LC's biggest mistake: to consider itself a church. I've already explained that.

Generalizing here.
LC congregations tend to equivocate themselves as the Body of Christ
Non-LC congregations tend to equivocate themselves as part of the Body of Christ.
Notice the difference?

[PeterG]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Generalizing here.
LC congregations tend to equivocate themselves as the Body of Christ
Non-LC congregations tend to equivocate themselves as part of the Body of Christ.
Notice the difference?

Yes, I think you're right!