Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches

[jigsaw44]

Intro- I am currently part of the local churches (east coast), and upon joining for a little while now (not too new and not a long term member) I seem to have a lot of questions I wouldn't feel comfortable asking upfront just by the nature of it. (the word "but" is used an unnecessary amount of times but im done typing/adjusting and just want to post.

1. What exactly is the hierarchy of the local churches? On these forums I see these terms of Coworker, blended brothers, elders, (whats next after elders and so on) etc. What exactly are these titles and their function, and how would you know if someone is in one of these positions? It seems pretty subtle when it comes to knowing who is who and what is what. I feel like I have no idea how this system is organized and it feels like it is something that is not explained for a long while for some reason or another.

2. My second question goes to the dream/mission of the church and is to basically have a society that has no denominations and have full unity. To cut a long story short this seems real nice at first glance but obviously has no real practical pursuit as humanity will always think differently and be divided whether that is religion, politics, ideology, conduct of livelihood etc. But if the local churches want to pursue this to the best they can, even with the evident reality then its fine- go pursue life with how ever you believe. The real problem is how the local churches practice of worship completely revolves more around witness lee than the sole word of Christ. I want you to imagine if the Local churches were to grow bigger than what even the catholic church has accomplished and have a collective of Christians having their thoughts consumed solely by the teachings of lee? I do not think that would look to pretty, especially reading all of the under the rug stories of the local church. Honestly the biggest problem in my opinion, with the practice of the local churches is how much they indoctrinate themselves with lee ( I Do not even know his first name or why he is called "witness" lee).

3. What are the certain behaviors that make the Local Church members different. I notice some things like they have dont televisions, and I think they do not celebrate Christmas and Easter. There probably more things they do and not that I have not noticed yet. What is the essential code of conduct among the local churches and where does these behaviors come from (maybe witness lee?).

4. This last point is kind of ridiculous in my opinion and it has to do with the relations of men and women in the local churches. It is very easy to tell brothers and sisters are separated as much as possible unless married. It really got to me when I brought my girlfriend (still having a celibate boundary), over to a lords day meeting and the amount of just piercing glares was just like woah- what is going on. Then I am later told about how dating is not moral and is only meant with intent on marriage and they read me verses on this subject,and It was obvious my girlfriend was a problem to them. But to be frank I am an adult in my twenties and I dont understand a darn bit how the woman I am with is anybody concern and how do they think they are in a position to dictate me, on how and who to date. But the situation with me is minuscule compared to some other brothers.

4.5- This is a continuation of point number 4 but focusing on other brothers. To get straight to it- the separation of male and female seems justifiable at a youth age but gets kind of out of hand for adults. I understand you want children to not be reckless and to focus on Christ and establishing their life before pursuing woman but it gets out of hand at a certain age with the restrictions of separation.
I know brothers in their late twenties and even early to mid thirties who for sadly obvious reasons they are not in good standing with pursuing a relationship. They barely have any opportunities to talk to the sisters and they frankly dont know how to since they have never done it for their entire lives (the ones who grew up LC). Lastly, there are probably no sisters interested in them in, in that locality.
But instead of going out there in the world and being a man and finding their own woman, they just sit there while they fellowship with the brothers and praying for their troubles (repeatedly). But the fact is- the reasons they cant find a woman to settle with (socially, physically, financially, etc), still applies to the local church woman just as much to woman outside the local churches. Everyone looks for standards in a relationship and if you have a lot of perceived flaws/judgement then it takes that much more work to find a woman who accepts you and embraces. So sitting your butt down while in your thirties and hoping for some sort of miracle is not productive.
I wish I could tell them to get their butts out there and find their woman. I believe there is somebody for everyone but some people just never find that person cause they dont do what is required to do so. But I dont want to be seen as blunt and harsh. The thing is that if these brothers I talked about were 18 or 19 years of age just starting to explore the world and seeing the work required to live in it than it wouldn't be a problem and time will develop them. But some these are men in their mid thirties sitting their hopelessly and sad, not realizing they might need to expand their world outside the local churches to get what they want.
Having a woman/spouse is one of the most essential things for a man to have and to make it so hard for grown men to even have a basic interaction with woman (talking, standard dating),to me makes no sense. Especially when some men are by default of certain qualities, going to have a harder time dating/finding a woman. Im not even going to get into the arranged marriage/elders permission nonsense (as seen in other post), as my post is long enough.

- This concludes my introduction post, feel free to give your knowledge, thoughts, opinions, and concerns on my post. It was nice introducing myself and I hope to gain more insight. also sorry for the typos/errors, this was a long post.

[Sons to Glory!]

Jigsaw44 - welcome to the LC Discussion board! I'll try to respond to each of your points, but may not have the knowledge to do so adequately on all of them. My responses are based upon my firsthand knowledge of the LC from the 1070s & 80s in a few different localities, and for some limited things I've learned since then.

1. Regarding the hierarchy, the elders are supposed to be the top authority in a locality. And the LCs were supposed to be autonomous. But this happens to varying degrees and since the mid-1980s, central authority from Anaheim and LSM has become prevalent. The elders and LCs that didn't come under this authority were basically shown the door. I think "co-workers" means ones who were closely associated with WL. Blendeds I have the least idea about, as this made-up term came about after I left in the late 1980s. However, Blendeds wield at least a strong influence over elders I would think . . .

2. You identified a key issue with the LC - its adherence to WL above Christ. They would never admit this, but it is apparent to most anyone who visits a LC gathering. They believe they have the one true ministry and the one true way to Christian unity. This has caused a palatable and fleshly elitism in the LC, that automatically divides them from other members of the body of Christ. They don't see this and believe, like the church in Laodecia, that they have it all.

3. Regarding the behaviors of the LC members . . . no, many do not have TVs and don't celebrate holidays. When I was in, this was a norm, and to do otherwise, well let's just say there was a sort of unwritten peer pressure regarding these things. Nothing wrong with not having these things, and personally I believe the world is completely married to the TV and Christmas. But, it is a covert kind of legalism in the LCs to not practice these things, which supplants the inner working of the Anointing.

Other behaviors when I was around including a very conservative style of clothing and things like discouraging make-up on women. Again, there was a kind of covert code, which I don't know that anybody got talked to if they stepped "over the line, " but there was just this understanding that you didn't want to appear too worldly . . . Now I see these things as legalism that just replaces the real experience of Christ in someone's life.

4.5 - I don't know that I can really address this. There has been a lot of discussion on here of late, regarding how the LC treats females (not well). As you point out, there certainly is some prudence in keeping a level of separation for obvious reasons (i.e., rampant hormones), but the LCs seem to get overly legal in this matter too. Maybe someone else could address this more.

Hope that helps and again, it's just my opinions and observations. I'm sure many others will chime in.

[jigsaw44]

Thank you for the response- Sons to Glory, I have been in the LC for a little while and things just seemed out of place on the surface of things and I was thinking just how strange it truly was once you get to know enough of it.
I encourage other users to chime in and tell me what they know of the local churches whether that is responding to one of my initial questions in the original post or just giving some extra info.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

Intro- I am currently part of the local churches (east coast), and upon joining for a little while now (not too new and not a long term member) I seem to have a lot of questions I wouldn't feel comfortable asking upfront just by the nature of it. (the word "but" is used an unnecessary amount of times but im done typing/adjusting and just want to post.

1. What exactly is the hierarchy of the local churches? On these forums I see these terms of Coworker, blended brothers, elders, (whats next after elders and so on) etc. What exactly are these titles and their function, and how would you know if someone is in one of these positions? It seems pretty subtle when it comes to knowing who is who and what is what. I feel like I have no idea how this system is organized and it feels like it is something that is not explained for a long while for some reason or another.

Welcome jigsaw44!

I only have a short window to say something but will try to follow up with some more thoughts on the rest of your post in the coming days. But regarding your point #1......

The brothers in the leadership of the local churches adamantly claim that "there is no hierarchy" in the local churches. But, as you may or may not have discovered, there can be a fair amount of contradictory thoughts/teachings in the local church. I say that because while stamping their foot and proclaiming "no hierarchy", the leadership simultaneously holds iron-grip fast to the concept of "deputy authority" in the church.

What is "God's deputy authority" you might ask? In the church, what it distills down to is that it's brothers in the lead who must be submitted to whether they are right or wrong. Who are the ones telling us that God's deputy authorities must be submitted to whether right or wrong? Why, those very same deputy authorities.

I'll provide a sample quote from an article posted to a recent public relations site they created within the past year:

"The apostles charged the believers to submit to all deputy authorities, without regard to whether they were good or bad (Rom. 13:1; Titus 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:13). Believers are likewise charged to honor the elders in the church (1 Tim. 5:17) and be subject to them (1 Pet. 5:5).

What if a deputy authority is wrong? If a deputy authority is wrong, we should still submit (Dan. 3:19-21; Acts 16:20-25), though we cannot obey if the authority insists that we act contrary to God (Dan. 3:16-18; Acts 5:29)."

One tripping hazard with these kind of quotes is that they are chock-filled with verse references, giving the impression that everything they are saying, stating, and claiming is what the Bible says.

But it's just not. What the co-workers have done in the article (I'll get to "the co-workers" in a sec) is mix verses about submitting to SECULAR authorities "whether good or bad", and then pretending like the Bible commands that same "whether good or bad" stance regarding apostles, elders, etc.....in the church. But the Bible NEVER says to submit to someone in the church "whether they are good or bad". Ever. The system of "authority" (if you want to call it that) in the church is completely turned upside down from the world. And Jesus Himself says it in Matthew 20:25-28:

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.
26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—
28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

So just with your first question, you've uncovered a known abusive teaching used in cults and abusive churches. It's a big one, and it tells us reams about what's going on in the local church. And what it's telling us is not good.

It basically provides the perfect petri dish of an environment for sin, unrighteousness, and all manner of evil to be covered up and hidden and never dealt with, because the members have been trained to believe they have to submit no matter what. The second you hear anyone saying "we have the authority" is actually the very moment that they have lost their authority, because they have strayed from the thing that really has the authority - the word of God.

There's more I could say, but that's an initial toe-dip into the cesspool of hierarchy and authority in the local church.

The frustrating thing is, if everyone behaves themselves, a given local church can seem like quite a nice place. Most members have direct access, free fellowship, good relationships with the elders in that locality, and you don't bump up against this strange "deputy authority" that much. It's when 1) someone sins and the eldership is expected to step in and they confusingly develop lead feet and you're expected to not have a problem with their unwillingness to do the right thing, or 2) the co-workers (who are "above" the elders) blow into town and the elders suddenly become simpering backbone-less non-elders who bow to whatever unbiblical stuff the co-workers may be commanding them to do, that you bump up against it. And this stuff happens. Oh boy, does it ever.

So in this "we are not a hierarchy", here is a rough idea of the hierarchy as I posted elsewhere on this site:

1. Witness Lee (in the grave)
2. Co-workers in the Lord's recovery - cover the whole world
>>a. Senior co-workers
>>b. Junior co-workers
3. North America co-workers - includes some regional co-workers, deals only with N.A.
4. Regional co-workers - cover various regions in the U.S., some of whom are North America co-workers, some of whom are not but are elders.
5. Elders in each locality.
6. Responsible brothers in each locality (includes both elders as well as the brothers under them, say, who head up various services in the church, or various district meetings, or handle the HWMR sharing, etc).
7. All the other brothers.
8. All sisters, no matter the age, maturity, responsibility, weightiness, expertise, etc.

8 is a little tongue in cheek, but not really far off from reality as I have observed it, and as you may have noticed.

#nohierarchy

As you rightly observed, they are shifty about identifying who is who. Elders in each locality are openly known, but above that is mired in clouds of smoke. I think it's commonly understood that "the blended brothers" includes AT LEAST the brothers who share the messages at the LSM live trainings given every summer and winter. "The blended brothers" are either all the co-workers, or a subset of the co-workers.

One other wrinkle while I'll only touch upon, is that the majority of the board members of LSM, if not all of them, are also co-workers. And so any decision made by "the co-workers" is by default also a decision made by all the top brass at LSM. What this does is put LSM as #1 in place of Witness Lee, for all practicality these days. A publishing house is the top leader of a network of churches. It's just weird.

I recollect the same as Sons to Glory!. I believe "the co-workers" came about as a term initially to describe the brothers who were around Witness Lee when he was alive. They were "co-working" with Witness Lee, and so they became "the co-workers". Even their terminology has to do with relationship to Witness Lee. If you look through the Bible, though, the Greek for co-worker is used in a much broader sense and in a few cases includes couples and sisters.

But the reason for shiftiness (and I'll stop on this point), is so they can't be held accountable. In the Bible, the apostles were named, openly identified themselves as such, and openly known. And the saints in the church were charged to watch out for wolves and false prophets, and were told to test them and were commended for identifying false apostles, etc. Well......it's kind of hard to test and discern and hold people to a standard if they won't even identify who they are.....right?

On that same PR site I mentioned earlier, the co-workers claim to be apostles, and then call it "unbiblical" to ask for a list of the co-workers. It actually couldn't be more biblical, given that the apostles are listed out one by one in the Bible itself.

It's all just a contradictory, unscriptural mess that they've propagated. I personally think 95% of the problems in the local church stem from the upper echelons of the leadership.

Anyway. You got me going. Sorry for the long post. Hope this is helpful as a start.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

But the reason for shiftiness (and I'll stop on this point), is so they can't be held accountable.

I'll pick up where you stopped.

The Recovery reeks because of this point: Its leaders have not, cannot, and will not be held accountable.

This is the impetus for many of their false teachings, and the widespread damages which have resulted over the years. Of course, those inside of the Recovery are constantly reminded that these "storms" were actually "rebellions" or "conspiracies" orchestrated by ambitious men. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of these so-called "ambitious" men, throughout the 100 year history of the Recovery, were only men of God calling for accountability in the ministry. In a sense they were merely whistle-blowers calling for accountability.

The most insidious (and probably the root of all evil) of these false teachings is the concept of "deputy authority" vested in one man. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Both within the church and without. That's why Jesus so often warned the disciples about wanting to be great, and lording it over others. If you think that I am perhaps a little off-base, let me encourage you to read church history and see the death and destruction wrought by the Popery on the entire Western world for more than a Millennium.

Think about it: If the Pope is the actual Vicar of Christ on earth, how can he make a mistake, and how can he ever be held accountable? If Nee and Lee and "Brothers We" are actually the "Ministers of the Age," (MOTA's) raised up by the Lord Himself, how can they be held accountable?

How did it get this way? Why has history repeated itself? What are these same falsehoods thrust upon Catholics, thrust upon the LC's, thrust upon our Brethren forebears under J.N.Darby, and thrust upon so many other congregations and aberrant sects throughout the church age?

This teaching of deputy authority, under diverse terminologies for two millennia, is a root of evil. It is the legal mandate of those who lust for power. It has the ability to subdue mountains of verses in the New Testament which should serve to negate it. In a nutshell, it is the application of Moses (and Noah secondarily related to accountability) as a type of any N.T. minister. Yes, Moses is a type of Christ, and Christ alone, but never another minister. Moses told us this in Deut. 18.15-19. Jesus regularly connected Himself with Moses. (e.g. John 5.46-47) Peter verified this in Acts 3.22-23. Paul confirmed this in Hebrews chapter 3. Moses brought us the Old Covenant and built God's house in type, Jesus brought us the New Covenant and built God's house in reality.

Kings David and Solomon are also incredible types of Christ. God has used them, though flawed in many ways, to reveal His Son to us. Yet, never once did the N.T. ascribe their kingly authority to anyone but Christ Himself, the real King, the eternal King, the Judge of all, who alone is worthy of all glory and honor. Apart from Him, all other ministers in the church, including the apostles, are nothing. (Luke 17.10)

[jigsaw44]

Appreciate all the responses so far (Ohio/trapped/glory). Gave me alot of info I did not have before. Feel free to expand your input on my other questions and for anyone new to this thread- join right in.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

It's all just a contradictory, unscriptural mess that they've propagated. I personally think 95% of the problems in the local church stem from the upper echelons of the leadership.

I agree with you here Trapped. Sadly fear of Man operates more in the local churches than fear of God. The general congregation take more heed what "the brothers" say rather than what the Bible says.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by Trapped

1. Witness Lee (in the grave)
2. Co-workers in the Lord's recovery - cover the whole world
>>a. Senior co-workers
>>b. Junior co-workers
3. North America co-workers - includes some regional co-workers, deals only with N.A.
4. Regional co-workers - cover various regions in the U.S., some of whom are North America co-workers, some of whom are not but are elders.
5. Elders in each locality.
6. Responsible brothers in each locality (includes both elders as well as the brothers under them, say, who head up various services in the church, or various district meetings, or handle the HWMR sharing, etc).
7. All the other brothers.
8. All sisters, no matter the age, maturity, responsibility, weightiness, expertise, etc.

8 is a little tongue in cheek, but not really far off from reality as I have observed it, and as you may have noticed.

I agree with this, but there is hierarchy among the sisters as well.

It goes
1. Wife of... in order of who they are wife too (people always look up to the senior co-workers wives)
2. All other married sisters
3. Unmarried sisters who are full time
4. All other unmarried sisters

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by clever sister

I agree with this, but there is hierarchy among the sisters as well.

It goes
1. Wife of... in order of who they are wife too (people always look up to the senior co-workers wives)
2. All other married sisters
3. Unmarried sisters who are full time
4. All other unmarried sisters

Yep....good added detail. From my personal observation I would agree with you.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

3. What are the certain behaviors that make the Local Church members different. I notice some things like they have dont televisions, and I think they do not celebrate Christmas and Easter. There probably more things they do and not that I have not noticed yet. What is the essential code of conduct among the local churches and where does these behaviors come from (maybe witness lee?).

Where behaviors come from is an interesting question, and not one I'm sure I have any kind of answer or many formed thoughts about. Numerous behaviors in the local church line right up with typical behaviors in legalistic churches or abusive churches, so with that in mind, I would say the ultimate source is of the devil. But I think, yeah, maybe some of the particular specifics are just sourced in Witness Lee.

As an example, it's not uncommon for facial hair to be frowned upon in legalistic churches. That's the overarching "typical behavior". But the particular specific for the LC is, say, that Witness Lee said that when he came to America and saw Americans with beards he didn't know if the men were humans or demons. That's the Witness Lee twist on the beard thing. And they take it so far as to say that if you are serving on campus or in the leadership, it's inappropriate for you to have a beard or facial hair. Like, it is not allowed. Talk about a commandment of men rather than of God!

The essential code of conduct is: DON'T DO ANYTHING WITHOUT PERMISSION AND FELLOWSHIP!!!

Other things that make the LC members different:
-no Christmas
-no Easter
-for some, no birthdays, or greatly reduced emphasis on birthdays
-movie theaters have been problematic
-I know jeans are a problem for some
-they have a unique and strange vernacular among themselves which bleeds into conversations with non-LC people sometimes
-ultra submissive to so-called "authority"
-close their minds to contradictory information
-live in their own bubble trying to get others into their bubble
-withdrawal from healthy interaction with other believers not in the LC, there can actually be a fear there even
-for some, fear of extravagance or appearing too worldly (yes, we should take care of that kind of thing in the extreme, but I think it's too much in the LC.....for example, Jo Casteel in her FB letter mentioned something about wearing sparkly shirts and worrying it would stumble LCers)
-fear of questioning, noticing problems, speaking up about observed sin, identifying wrong teachings, rocking the boat in general
-holding conflicting views simultaneously and constructing mental barriers to not have to deal with it

I know others can fill this out much better, but that's what immediately came to my mind.

(Thanks, Ohio, for picking up where I left off on that other post!)

Trapped

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The essential code of conduct is: DON'T DO ANYTHING WITHOUT PERMISSION AND FELLOWSHIP!!!

On the flip side, it one is conscious of this code of conduct and does something without permission and fellowship, what does it mean if there is reaction?

[jigsaw44]

Thanks again for all the responses, a quick question though. Is it ok if i PM some of you for more questions? I just dont think it will be necessary to make a bunch of thread every time I have a concerning questions. But I def will make some new threads in the future, (hopefully one that isnt a 1000 word Original Post like this one =).

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

Thanks again for all the responses, a quick question though. Is it ok if i PM some of you for more questions? I just dont think it will be necessary to make a bunch of thread every time I have a concerning questions. But I def will make some new threads in the future, (hopefully one that isnt a 1000 word Original Post like this one =).

Yes, absolutely - at least as far as I am concerned!

[jigsaw44]

Thanks for all the support all of you, well as requested I will definitely ask more questions that I would like insight on. (sorry for the typos/errors, it is a long post).

5. Why do elders/full timers try to find out every aspect of your livelihood. From my own experience and observed happening to other brothers recently recruited from college campuses, it seems as though they try to ask why you do certain things such as activities outside of the local churches. Either that may be hanging out with friends outside the LC, or going to social events/hobbies. They seem almost skeptical/cynical of your lifestyle outside of the local churches. They are subtle about it to, they try to fish around for the information they desire but trying to beat around the bush in asking what you do and why you do it. It appears kind of invasive, like do how would they like it if someone questioned every aspect of the livelihood outside of the Local Churches. IDK if this is an east coast thing with the local churches (where in from), or just a general thing they do for whatever reason.

6. Another observation I made is how they seem very persistent in getting certain brothers (college age), to go live in a brothers house. I don't this to be necessarily negative but they have a strong emphasis on accomplishing this. I guess the concerning thing is that, why are they so persistent in pulling people away from their already established living situation (dorms/apartments/living with parents). Its as if they are afraid of something and that "something" can be solved by putting brothers in a brothers house. Like I said, cant really have a hard opinion on this without knowing more info. I know that a brothers house has a lot of restrictions that may or may not be too controlling depending on the person. But I feel that this has a strong correlation to something, I just don't know it (hopefully you all do).

6.5- A side about brothers house, what I do observe is that it is definitely not suited for everybody and I see brothers who have stagnant growth in life and responsibilities as a man, due to the restrictions of the brothers house and the cheap comfort that it brings (low cost of living), also were talking about men not only college age but all the way into their thirties). Do local church elders even care about the growth and progression of life of brothers or the only thing relevant is their "spiritual growth" and fellowship. I honestly think that the actions/pressures of the local churches have either unintended or in their eyes "trivial" consequences for lots of people they to usher into their customs.

7. Full time training- I read some post about how the Local Churches try to push students to go to the full time training but some things about it does not make sense to me. There are brothers/sisters who go to the full time training but are not full timers. So they basically enter the job market with a 2 year job gap. Did they chose not to pursue full timing or where there not enough positions available? Why would someone go through years of college+ internships and to throw all away for a 2 year job gap and no full time position in the church. Wouldn't just be more practical for lots of brothers/sisters to just pursue their careers and move on with their lives. It seems to me this "training" just hindered their lives greatly (those who did not become full timers).

8. Tithing/- This is something that has a problem with all religious institutions but for the local churches- I want to chime in. I remember I was at a conference (east coast), and the way the full timer/ responsible one (idk his position but he was something in terms of authority). Was giving a story about how a brother worked his way up to making good money and he gave it all away except for the needed amount to survive. He then said with a powerful and grasping voice- GIVE YOUR MONEY TO GOD, Money is evil except for putting it towards God (Like God himself needs money -_-). (Notice how he says give money to God, good word choice to captivate people and it sounds a lot better than saying please give money to the church for necessary expenses). The people attending the conference shouted Amen and were robust about his words and were praising him. I was thinking to my self- you took so much of this mans money and didn't even think about his personal well being such as retirement savings and other cost of living adjustments.
So how much action does the Local Churches have into individual contribution for tithing. Do they force/pressure you for income verification and try to compromise with you on how to much to donate. Or are they lax and simply humbly request donations for church maintenance. I understand money is necessary for needed funds/expenses, but honestly there are certain ways to not go about it that can be deem unethical: selling LSM products in church, and being deceptive with words.

8.5- Mentality- as told in question 8 with the story of the conference attendants mindlessly shouting amen and just praising anything a brother with authority says. I have been to different churches growing up and there are numerous times a pastor will give his own personal opinion knowing the consequences of difference in thought within believers- in which you get negative stares, awkward silence, and a lack amens. This is a part of church life and it shows the different chain of thoughts and personal beliefs we humans have.
But brothers, especially elders and responsible ones (basically any brother with any sort of authority). Will speak and say something bizarre strange, or just extremely unusual, it is almost if the local church members are just ingrained just yell amen and agree with utmost authority towards the brother. I emphasize "brothers", because sometimes when sisters offer a different/unpopular opinion- there is hardly any amen and even objection to the comment the sister made. But for leading brothers- the situation reminds me of people with no sense of independence of thought just mindlessly agreeing and never objecting.
Is this a façade, and people do think differently and disagree but due to fear- never speak out in any form. Or are they really ingrained to the system crafted by the local churches. Or perhaps, not to be condescending- these are the people the local churches are looking for ("sheep" needing to be taken care of). All these things I have just observed from my current time with the local churches, and I know possibly many more newcomers to the LC (perhaps even LC grown people), have noticed similar things as I- just not have spoken about it to local church members. There is a huge commitment rate ranging between those who grew up in Local churches and those who came in as young adults (me). Obviously those who grew up outside the local churches- bring with them there experiences and knowledge of understanding outside of the local churches and bring them in. That is why a lot of long term Local Church members (especially Young LC kids/teens/adults), I believe are not even aware of this "mentality" that they have in relations towards the local church or maybe have been taught for so long to dismiss it.
Regardless, this concludes my second set of questions for the local churches. Its crazy how much I have from just basic observations from an outside perspective (didn't grow up in LC). Feel free to answer and give me input from any of my questions/points.

[Sons to Glory!]

Here's my reply to your questions #5-8.

5. They are probably thinking they are shepherding you and protecting you. However, beyond a basic level, it is an intrusion in my book and and attempt to control. Brothers I'm with now, for instance, don't really care to know all my current details, and visa versa. Nobody's hiding anything, but being a busy-body is overly controlling, and is of the flesh. If you invited someone to help you or to provide a level of accountability, well that's different. But where I am now, often brothers might just say, "Let's take it to the Lord" if someone was going on in too much detail about their private life issues.

6. Nothing wrong with saints living together, but someone pressuring a person is (again) controlling and of the flesh. I know they would probably say it's a healthy thing for young people to be together for a level of accountability, but . . . The flesh doing these things amounts to zero, and can cause problems. In my book, better for the Anointing within to be allowed to work in a younger person. So a little fellowship and gentle guidance is one thing, but I think you're talking about overt pressure.

7. Can't speak regarding the full-time training thing, but about everything I've heard on here in several discussions, it all sounds legalistic and controlling. And ultimately the fruit of the Spirit doesn't appear to be there as a result of this type of training.

8. I was never forced or pressured much to tithe. To me it's totally freewill, and you are right that many groups push this in an unbiblical way I think. At the least, it's an Old Covenant practice. Think about it, saying you should give at least 10% . . . this smacks of the law - nothing like this in the New Testament. Let the Anointing guide you as far as giving your money, time and caring for others is concerned!

8.5 My opinion is it is a classic groupthink thing. You fall in with a certain group and their norms, and after going along with something a while, it's just easy to nod and agree. And then, over time, to go against whatever seems doubly hard.

Hope that helps and I'm sure others will jump in.

[Trapped]

5. LOL....I can think of a few possibilities. One is that they are trained to "show an interest in people". The other is to see how "good" of a "good building material" you are. Another is that it's classic lovebombing - show an interest in people, what they do, why they do it.....but you caught on that it's subtle and invasive.....because the reason isn't really grounded in love; it's grounded in trying to catch you for "the Lord's recovery movement of Witness Lee".

6. They are afraid that outside influences will draw those brothers away. If you can keep them grouped together all the time, then there are less outsiders to show how weird the bubble is. The church life de facto becomes their actual life. It's less effort to catch a group of fish than one fish at a time. Etc. etc. But what I've observed happens when you do this with a group of brothers is that you produce a ...... weird group of brothers. The word "bro" takes on a whole new level of meaning. Groups of brothers create their own vernacular and think the whole world revolves around the "hilarious" language they've come up with. Bro-ing it up. It's ultimately self-facing, inward, self-centered behavior. There's nothing to balance them out. And the serving ones encourage it because it's an easy pot of fish to keep an eye on (or whatever.....poor metaphor on my part).

6 1/2. I don't know what is going on inside elders' heads or hearts. For reals. It's a head scratcher. They can be Jekylls and Hydes, man.

7. The FTT is sold as "two years in the full-time training is equivalent to twenty years in the church". It's sold as a well-known footnote goes: "throughout the past twenty centuries, thousands of precious lives, heart treasures, high positions, and golden futures have been “wasted” upon the Lord Jesus." Trainees think they are "presenting their bodies which is their reasonable service". So to sacrifice two years is, in their minds, a glory. But they're not presenting their bodies to the Lord, it's to Witness Lee's indoctrination camp. Their sacrifice is on the wrong altar.

I think as the FTT sought after it's accreditation, graduates could pass it off as something like "continuing education" or "schooling" or whatever. It can appear on a resume less like a weird generic "Bible school" and more like "Bible Truth and Church Service Training", which is what the FTTA site says.

Many full-timers, as they near graduation, fling themselves on "the brothers" to determine what they should do. Some trainees already have a plan and they stick to it. Some decide for themselves. Some wait for "the fellowship" and follow it no matter what. It varies. But it's all done in an environment of "undue influence". Often times the elders honor the "feeling" of graduates who think for themselves. But some graduates become true milquetoasts, laying themselves as sacrifices on the altar of the elders, wanting to remain "under the covering". It's weird.

I'll have to stop there for now.

Trapped

[jigsaw44]

Ill say it again, thank you for all your responses and I do indeed have more questions. (Again sorry for typos, it is a long post). I understand I am swinging in with the questions and I apologize if its a lot but feel free to take a bit of time). I only had like 2 questions initially, but more popped up the more I typed. There is a lot of questions to answer here so if you only have time to answer a couple- I think questions 14-14.5 are the synopsis of all the thoughts and questions I had in this thread so I guess if you had to chose a couple its definitely 14-14.5. Otherwise feel free to answer a bunch of them or even all of them. I think I poured out all I had of the local churches so far in this thread.

9. The Objective of the church- From what I have seen and heard so far the Local churches are trying to expand and meet a quota of church members not only in numbers but also demographics. Then why keep this idea of only college age kids being "good building material". Im not saying go find all the homeless drug addicts in the world and transform their lives (very virtuous but difficult...), but expand the horizon and get people from all portions of your city. If they like the local church they will stay and perhaps even bring people they know and the church will grow. They say things like "All inclusive Christ", but exclude a lot of people on discrimination of character it seems to me. There is reason the Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals are all huge in numbers due to their persistence of pursuing people of all sorts. I mean who even knows of the Local Churches in the general public? In fact, why do they try so hard to hide who they are as a church, whether its going under the alias Christians on campus, or hiding lee material(from new college students), and diverging from explaining their practices and customs (shouting, amen, recovery footnotes, legalism, etc? Just be honest with you are, and the people who are not with it will leave and those are will stay. That way you don't have people leaving en masse out after figuring out that what they thought initially was not the reality. They make it so hard to expand on their wishes without realizing that changing will be needed to do so. Of course they might want to keep it small and controlled because of leaks they are afraid they cant patch up (Titus Chu).

9.5- Care - is there really a pyramid system of the amount of care LC members have towards certain brothers/sisters. I know obviously that college students are love bombed due to them being their ideal recruits but beyond that where does it go? I ask this because I notice a couple things.
First is the certain comments that elders/responsible ones make about other brothers and its revealing of how they think vs how they "appear". You know those brothers I mentioned in question 4.5 (1st post), those are the ones getting side comments on their age and judgement on their life. I wrote so much on question 4.5 cause its just frustrating on how devoted some of these brothers are to the church and in return they are not really cared about (deemed not worthy for consistent invites for home meetings/gatherings, not taken seriously for moving in the next step forward in life). I am not sure if this is just an outlier from what I witnessed or is it a common thing throughout the Local Churches. There are those who want to work out of college and trust me when they share their excitement for getting the job they want after studying hard for years- the Amens become dead silent in the meetings (prob cause no FTT).

9.8-The questions previously asked about LC members trying to gather random pieces of info about me and testing whether I am willing to commit to their norms from the get-go (brothers house/ FTT commitment). Is it all just to see how much I am worth in terms of care/appreciation? I know this sounds distrustful and skeptical but after the testimonies I have seen and what I have observed. I'm on the verge of thinking there truly is some sort of unspoken or privately spoken consensus on who is worth what. Does this whole situation of appearing "inferior" revolve around the idea of "building material".
- I know question 9 is broken into many parts but I guess the simple answer im looking for is- What are the different groups of people do Local Church see and categorize? Is it as simple as College+FTT+Witness lee indoctrination= Top of pyramid, and everyone else is below with little indifference between the non FTT people. Or does it get complicated depending on other factors.

10. Goal of FTT- Is the goal of FTT solely produce Full timers and outreach for the local churches. Or is there an ulterior motive to get as much people as possible for Witness Lee doctrine to be ingrained and there for LSM/Anaheim to have full ideological control? Seeing what happened to Titus chu, I'm thinking control is of higher priority than mass expansion.

11. History/Events- Titus Chu/Midwest vs Anaheim, what is the current state of the local churches of America. Are they subject to Anaheim or is there a rift between certain regions on who to follow? How does the local churches throughout the regions react to an excommunication of a big name person such as Titus? Do they contest in uproar or pretend nothing happened?

11.5-. Excommunication (don't care about the word they have for it)- How does one qualify for excommunication? Can a regular attendee with no authority/power be excommunicated or is the process for excommunication big name people such as Titus Chu, or John Ingalls? Is it simply the consistently challenging Witness Lee content? I hear they like to use the word "ambitious"- How does one qualify for being ambitious? How is excommunication enforced- are you banned from your current city or perhaps region, maybe even world? Do they give information to every local church, in order to keep you out?

12. Contradiction- How does the LC practice their norms/customs while pretending to be the pinnacle of Christianity. 1. Shouting and Chanting Lord Jesus, and repeating verses over and over verbatim (goes against Matthew Chapter 6), Discriminately choosing who to accept/recruit over who they currently are and not what they can be (goes against Jesus character completely, story of Sumerian woman, healing the sick, blessing the poor). The idea of Killing the soul life- while things like Daystar scandal, throwing max under the bus, recycled LSM content being sold in church for profit ( Goes against Matthew 21), Philip Lee( disgusting man).
I can only imagine just how much harder it was for the women to speak up against him (Philip lee) since seeing how sisters are at the bottom of the totem pole (In the local churches) and at that time, Philip lee had high position along with "Caesar" lee protecting him. They always bash the Roman rulers but I got to say "Caesar lee" is definitely up there when compared to the most control seeking Roman rulers (might as well call him "Caesar" by the way he is portrayed and treated). I mean they always bash other churches for their imperfections, how about they look at themselves (Matthew 7:5). Nothing is perfect but darn they hold themselves as the pinnacle of Christianity and it makes no sense. Btw im talking about the people who are aware of these events and still pretend their high and mighty. Now that I think about I have another question that just spurred out of no where.

13. What percentage of Local church people know of the ugly side of LC history : Anaheim in its prime time years of chaos- 1980s, Titus Chu excommunication/Midwest split, Daystar, etc. These are things I know just from these forums and other sources. Who knows other things that happened that went under the rug. As time goes on and the people who witnessed and experienced all this history in person- pass on. Will these things even be known outside of the internet? 50 years from now, will the dark history of the LC be flowing around the local churches in these minds that have been told this info one way or another. Or just contained on the internet for the curious ones who come across the info.

14. I got to be honest the average full timer/elder is honestly a nice person who just wants to do what they believe is "right" in the eyes of God. But what I just realized after typing all this is that the very brief answer to all my questions is Witness Lee. Witness Lee is the source for all the problems with the local churches. Whether its: how they look down on other Christians, only focus on college kids cause of "building material", have complete control over all localities like a "Caesar" having control over his provinces. In conferences they always talk about the "evil" Roman empire and how the roman empire lives on today. I know this seems bold to say this- Well look at the local churches: Localities= provinces, capital= Anaheim, anyone who speaks back against "Caesar" Lee is discarded, well I guess now the Caesars are the one who runs LSM (I guess Ron Kangas at this point has taken over the throne, doubt there is anyone above the mad king Ron currently). This man said Witness Lee is the best apostle since Paul and his works has surpassed men like Thomas Aquinas and John Wesley. Witness Lee is a failure/swindler/hustler, whose biggest accomplishment was maintaining but unfortunately degrading the local churches of Watchman Nee. How are you going to compare him to John Wesley and Thomas Aquinas?

14.5- If the local churches want to grow to what they dream upon (the size of the Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals,), they have to get rid of witness lee doctrine. Witness Lee, even after his passing- is holding them back so much and I do not even know if they realize it. His teachings/methods/ideology of what the local churches should be, is the reason the local churches will never appear to be more than a cult that has to hide under an alias on college campuses and put a veil over their teachings/beliefs cause they know of the consequences of immediately putting witness lee doctrine out there. If you have to put so much effort hiding who you truly are ( college campus deception tactics)- maybe what you are is the problem. Just like a person can change who they are so can the local churches. I love the format of the local churches, the circling and everyone speaking and giving their thoughts. But you cant even do that properly- you have to kiss butt to witness lee revival books and have an interpretation that follows witness lee footnotes. Get rid of lee and you will be free. The Truth Will Make You Free
John 8:31-32, 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

Christ is the source of truth and freedom not witness lee. It cant be both ways, if you want to remain and "exclusive low end cult" then keep following
"Caesar" lee. If you want to achieve a dream of unity and truth follow Christ.

[clever sister]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

7. Full time training- I read some post about how the Local Churches try to push students to go to the full time training but some things about it does not make sense to me. There are brothers/sisters who go to the full time training but are not full timers. So they basically enter the job market with a 2 year job gap. Did they chose not to pursue full timing or where there not enough positions available? Why would someone go through years of college+ internships and to throw all away for a 2 year job gap and no full time position in the church. Wouldn't just be more practical for lots of brothers/sisters to just pursue their careers and move on with their lives. It seems to me this "training" just hindered their lives greatly (those who did not become full timers).

I went to the FTT for 6 months and it was not sold as a way to become a full timer, though it was a requirement to become a full timer. Instead it is sold as a way to become an "Overcomer".
But when I got there, I was just like "Is this what overcoming is?"

It is the most cultlike experience I have ever been in. You don't really have any say in what you do with your time, what you eat, when you sleep. Everything is scheduled and decided for you.

But back to your question.

I did not do the full two years for health reasons, but from my observation, some people are pressured into serving full time. Some people are discouraged from serving full time and told they would better "serve" by getting a full time job.

No idea who they decide which is which.

My gap between studying and getting a job has not impacted my career, but it was not the full 2 years and my skillsets are in high demand. Some peole get jobs ok and others struggle.

[jigsaw44]

Thank you all for the responses in this thread I will like to reply to all you in this single post.

To Sons of Glory- Thank you for all your posts and insight. What I want to address specifically is your last words on Lee and the idea of the faults we all have. I was very harsh on my posts about witness lee (14-14.5), and at the time of the post I was a little tense and it did bring the judgmental side of me. I do wholeheartedly agree we are all imperfect and if we were in the position of power witness lee had who knows if we would have done the same or not. Many people in the bible are loved in the eyes of God even with all their faults such as: David, Jonah, Peter, Paul, Jacob, and Samson. The same applies to everybody else even witness lee. I have no personal hatred for Lee as I have never even meet the man and his flaws such as avarice and desire for power can easily be found in everybody just as much as him.
I guess my disappointment and frustration just came with the precedence he has established in the local churches. Its like people cant have their own opinion, interpretation, even their own freedom of thought. There is more footnotes then scripture in the recovery. In the book of the word of God- The words of an ordinary man consumes more then the word of God. Im not sure if he intended for himself to have such authority in these churches and whether he wishes this was the outcome. I know Lee has published many letters apologizing for his flaws. But many people speak on their faults but never act upon their forgoing actions to rectify them. I don't condemn the man as I sure as heck do not have the power or authority to decide the fate of anybody. But I do have the right and more importantly "will" to speak back in some way. Regardless its fine if people read the works of lee, as he and like many other Christian writers have their thoughts and opinions on theology, philosophy, and the practice of religion. Its also fine if you don't want to read witness lee or only want to read witness lee, people should have the freedom to do as they please in regards to this. The problem is the lack of freedom in the Local Churches in regards to pursuit of knowledge and information. Bless to your journey in the life of pursuit of Christ Sons of Glory.

Ohio- First I will to state that my questions are "general" cause unfortunately Its not like anybody has given me "details" in regards to my questions. But that is trivial compared to my next point. Ohio, old timers such as you and SonsofGlory are very important, perhaps more important than you think. There significance of a "living memory" is more precious then what people give credit for. Yes there are lots of sources online that I can read but its not the same as having the words of a person who has lived through the experiences I myself could not. I have luckily spoken to a few ww2 vets and people part of the civil rights movement (60s). Yes there is a tremendous amount of writings detailing's these events in history. Mind my language- But ill be damned by not taking the opportunity to hear from the purest of all primary sources of historical events (people who were there firs handedly). As time move on all ww2 will be long gone and those from the civil rights movement of the 60s, so will those who grew up in the Golden decade of Economic flourishment of the 50s, and the jungle fighters of the Vietnam war. There is a value for a "living memory" Ohio, so it does mean a lot to me to hear your experience. God bless your journey in the life of Christ Ohio.

Terry- I am glad that you were able to find happiness in life and hope your wife and three kids are doing great. Every person should have the right to pursue the joys and experiences that supplies a man not for the sake of satisfying himself with a means to no end but- with greater purpose of living for a sake that stretches beyond the individual man- that is the creation of families, and it is how the followers of Christ grow in this world. Anyone us reading this that is struggling with this- don't let anyone dictate whether you have the basic right to pursue this- be your own person and take dose of self reliance and responsibility to grow. Christ does not want to see you digress and be stagnant in life but to prosper in his image. Bless your journey in life of the pursuit of Christ Terry.

Trapped- I really appreciate all you said and actually, I caught your post quiet frequently on these forums when I was lurking on here for a bit, before being motivated to create an account. I hope you were able to move forward in life and not be shunned for being human and having emotions that anybody has and should be pursued with control and diligence but not by negligence and defiance of truth and reality (as taught by the local churches). Bless your journey in the life of the pursuit of Christ Trapped.

Clever Sister- Thank you for your posts on the FTT. I am glad you left something that was just destroying your mind and soul and that your life is doing better now that your living the life you want to live. Life is already difficult enough cause of the inevitable hardships, no need to live on path that destroys all the joy you have left. Glad you recovered and bless you on your journey in life in the pursuit of Christ.

In case some of you wont being viewing this thread again, I will PM you personally and let you know my appreciate. It really does mean a lot for all of you to contribute to this thread.

- This concludes my introduction post/questions to the local churches. I will know move on to post in other threads and be active on these forums (but most likely still reply to post on this thread). Nice meeting yall and hope to have more discussions in the future.

[Trapped]

Got a little more time, continuing on with your earlier questions....

8. Tithing - As far as abusive churches go, this one is actually a headscratcher when it comes to the LC, at least for me. It's not uncommon at all for moneygrubbing to be a central part of unhealthy churches.....for them to track if you gave your tithes and offerings, to track the percentage of your income you gave, to tell you if you give your money you will be blessed 10 times over in return (almost in the sense of a literal monetary return on investment), to suggest that when something bad happened to you that it was because you hadn't tithed enough that week, etc.....

And yet, with the local church, at least as far as what I've seen, their emphasis on tithes mostly seems to be a little labeled slot in an obscure place on the wall that is largely left up to the conscience of the individual member about what to do. Saints can give anonymous offerings, so keeping some kind of record of who gave and who didn't doesn't work very well. I personally know of no one that had, say, elders go after them giving them a hard time about not tithing at all or not tithing enough. I've got to say, for the most part I appreciate the local church lack of pressure on tithing (I like it better than other church's practice of handing around a "money plate" where everyone can see if you put something in or not. Kinda lame, imho).

Except when they would so obviously have a ministry reading or morning revival excerpt specifically on the subject as a kind of "hint hint", but, it seems unreasonable to me for the topic of our money never to come up at all, so even on that front I don't see anything wrong with the issue of how Christians handle their money coming up every now and then.

However, what you described in 8.5 (the robust amens without thinking, etc) is just more of the "shut your mind off" atmosphere in the church. Money is not evil; it's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Money is just money. God doesn't need our money; what He wants is for us to have a willing heart that our money be in His hands, just like everything else in our life.

For me, if LSM is involved, hang on to your money. If you see another human being in need, God's the boss on that one.

8.5 Mentality - what you described in this one would scream "cult" or "unhealthy church" to anyone who understands the depth to which behavior control can, well, control a person. The saints have been absolutely swimming in "the ministry" for decades. They haven't been taking in anything else, quite literally. This ministry says "even when authority in the church is wrong, they are right". It says "we must submit to deputy authority regardless of right or wrong". It has cliches like "we just say 'amen' to the brothers" and "I just have to be one with the brothers". They think that whatever is spoken, if it is from the ministry, is simply not up for question. It literally doesn't occur to them to doubt what Lee says. That's not the framework in the local church. And a lot of the local church activity can be done while shutting your mind off. For example, you don't have to actually listen to WHAT is being prayed in order to know when you should chime in and say "ameeeeennn", because there is a repetitive cadence to the prayers that you have swung back and forth to for years and years. Same with prophesying. People sharing often have a particular cadence, a lilt, a tone, etc. You can say "amen" without actually having turned the ignition key of your mind on to discern whether what is coming from the mouth of an authority and has the "taste" of the ministry is actually from the Bible!

Paul commended the Bereans for comparing what he said to the Scriptures. The local church would have your hide if you compared the ministry to the Scriptures and spoke up about real discrepancies.

Is it a facade? Do they think differently or are they ingrained? I think the answer varies by person. I personally can think of some people who truly are ingrained. They just take whatever "the brothers" say without any personal responsibility to test it. But I can also think of some people who do think differently in hushed tones, and then they will turn around and bow their head before the co-workers and go totally against what they admitted they really think. I know of some leading brothers who call the co-workers things like "Lee-bots", but who when faced with the co-workers will amen everything and live their lives according to what the co-workers say.

What's going on there? Yeah, it's fear. Fear fear fear fear fear. And cognitive dissonance. Honestly many saints don't even know they are living in cognitive dissonance, it's become such a permanent part of their life. The big issue with "the church LIFE" is the "life" part. If you make the unthinkable mistake of speaking up, then you are at risk of not only losing your familiar church, but also your LIFE.

But the church isn't supposed to be our life. Christ is. That's another area where they went overboard.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

For me, if LSM is involved, hang on to your money. If you see another human being in need, God's the boss on that one.

Same as me Trapped. Pertaining to LSM it's a matter of trust and transparency. I don't trust LSM due to their lack of transparency. So I didn't give. My view of the local churches is a funnel for LSM funding. Local churches never account what is done with the money. 35 years or so later I doubt there is not person who knows what happened with the infamous Linko project. No accountability.'s
Post LC I met with different churches. One in particular I would have a check ready prior to leaving for Lord's Day services. In transparency there is a willingness to give.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

4. This last point is kind of ridiculous in my opinion and it has to do with the relations of men and women in the local churches. It is very easy to tell brothers and sisters are separated as much as possible unless married. It really got to me when I brought my girlfriend (still having a celibate boundary), over to a lords day meeting and the amount of just piercing glares was just like woah- what is going on. Then I am later told about how dating is not moral and is only meant with intent on marriage and they read me verses on this subject,and It was obvious my girlfriend was a problem to them. But to be frank I am an adult in my twenties and I dont understand a darn bit how the woman I am with is anybody concern and how do they think they are in a position to dictate me, on how and who to date. But the situation with me is minuscule compared to some other brothers.

4.5- This is a continuation of point number 4 but focusing on other brothers. To get straight to it- the separation of male and female seems justifiable at a youth age but gets kind of out of hand for adults. I understand you want children to not be reckless and to focus on Christ and establishing their life before pursuing woman but it gets out of hand at a certain age with the restrictions of separation.
I know brothers in their late twenties and even early to mid thirties who for sadly obvious reasons they are not in good standing with pursuing a relationship. They barely have any opportunities to talk to the sisters and they frankly dont know how to since they have never done it for their entire lives (the ones who grew up LC). Lastly, there are probably no sisters interested in them in, in that locality.
But instead of going out there in the world and being a man and finding their own woman, they just sit there while they fellowship with the brothers and praying for their troubles (repeatedly). But the fact is- the reasons they cant find a woman to settle with (socially, physically, financially, etc), still applies to the local church woman just as much to woman outside the local churches. Everyone looks for standards in a relationship and if you have a lot of perceived flaws/judgement then it takes that much more work to find a woman who accepts you and embraces. So sitting your butt down while in your thirties and hoping for some sort of miracle is not productive.
I wish I could tell them to get their butts out there and find their woman. I believe there is somebody for everyone but some people just never find that person cause they dont do what is required to do so. But I dont want to be seen as blunt and harsh. The thing is that if these brothers I talked about were 18 or 19 years of age just starting to explore the world and seeing the work required to live in it than it wouldn't be a problem and time will develop them. But some these are men in their mid thirties sitting their hopelessly and sad, not realizing they might need to expand their world outside the local churches to get what they want.
Having a woman/spouse is one of the most essential things for a man to have and to make it so hard for grown men to even have a basic interaction with woman (talking, standard dating),to me makes no sense. Especially when some men are by default of certain qualities, going to have a harder time dating/finding a woman. Im not even going to get into the arranged marriage/elders permission nonsense (as seen in other post), as my post is long enough.

- This concludes my introduction post, feel free to give your knowledge, thoughts, opinions, and concerns on my post. It was nice introducing myself and I hope to gain more insight. also sorry for the typos/errors, this was a long post.

I was raised in the local churches since the age of 3. By the time you leave grade school for middle school, it is no longer acceptable for boys and girls to be sociable.
As you get to be high school and college age it was common to hear the phrase from a brother's perspective, "you don't get into a relationship until you're ready to get married." How do you know when that time is? If you even dare to speak to a single sister, protocol has been broken. Your character within the church becomes questionable.
It wasn't until the 1990's it became more common to find one's spouse outside the local church fellowship. It wasn't until facebook did I realize other former church kids, single sisters had the same attitude towards single brothers that single brothers had towards single sisters. There's a facade in the churchlife pretending to be spiritual and on fire for the ministry even if you're not. Brothers want to marry a normal sister and sisters want to marry a normal brother. Someone you can grow and laugh with. As it was there was such a distance for brothers and sisters to know each other as persons, they became socially dysfunctional towards the other gender.
You said,

I know brothers in their late twenties and even early to mid thirties who for sadly obvious reasons they are not in good standing with pursuing a relationship. They barely have any opportunities to talk to the sisters and they frankly dont know how to since they have never done it for their entire lives (the ones who grew up LC). Lastly, there are probably no sisters interested in them in, in that locality.

I was one of those brothers. How I came to be married and a father of three had nothing to do with the local churches.

[TLFisher]

Another question I had for many years, is to get an honest answer without the hemhawing "I feel to honor the feeling of the Body" type of response.
Brothers and sisters, do you really feel the quarantined leading brothers were trying to "takeover the recovery"?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Terry

I was raised in the local churches since the age of 3. By the time you leave grade school for middle school, it is no longer acceptable for boys and girls to be sociable.
As you get to be high school and college age it was common to hear the phrase from a brother's perspective, "you don't get into a relationship until you're ready to get married." How do you know when that time is? If you even dare to speak to a single sister, protocol has been broken. Your character within the church becomes questionable.
It wasn't until the 1990's it became more common to find one's spouse outside the local church fellowship. It wasn't until facebook did I realize other former church kids, single sisters had the same attitude towards single brothers that single brothers had towards single sisters. There's a facade in the churchlife pretending to be spiritual and on fire for the ministry even if you're not. Brothers want to marry a normal sister and sisters want to marry a normal brother. Someone you can grow and laugh with. As it was there was such a distance for brothers and sisters to know each other as persons, they became socially dysfunctional towards the other gender.
You said,
I was one of those brothers. How I came to be married and a father of three had nothing to do with the local churches.

This describes my experience too. No way granted to be able to be normally healthily functional towards the opposite sex. I recall having a young people's serving one telling me sternly "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT AT ALL UNTIL YOU ARE 25!" and when I turned 26 I got "what's the deal, why aren't you married yet?"

I tried to tell elders that young people are harmed by being told "no no no no no no no no" in every meeting their whole life and it is never balanced out with any kind of meeting where they are told "okay....now's ok". The elders were not church kids themselves, and they didn't seem to understand the problem.

You don't get into a relationship until you're read to get married?? How are you supposed to have any idea of who you'd like to be in a relationship with if you can't interact with them in a normal way? In the LC it's like you've got to break their protocol to have a hope of getting married. I can't stand what they've done to people.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by jigsaw44

Thanks again for all the responses, a quick question though. Is it ok if i PM some of you for more questions? I just dont think it will be necessary to make a bunch of thread every time I have a concerning questions. But I def will make some new threads in the future, (hopefully one that isnt a 1000 word Original Post like this one =).

You can PM anyone you want, although your original post was in the "Introductions and Testimonies" subform and since the title of your post is "thoughts, questions, etc....." this is kinda your thread and I think it would be totally appropriate for you to simply post more questions you have in this same original thread you started since it all would fall under "jigsaw44's thoughts and questions"!

It's up to you whether to PM or post publicly of course, but there are people reading and there is a lot of value to questions and thoughts and answers and musings happening publicly where others can read them. It's something that can't happen in the LC - freely throwing around Qs & As and handling things in the light - and that's the value of this place in contrast.