Bone of My Bones & Flesh of My Flesh

[Sons to Glory!]

We've had a few discussions on here about who believers and the church are in Christ, that is: what is our new identity in Him? I think WL is alleged to have said, "God became man so man could become God." I'm not sure the authenticity of this quote, since I didn't hear it firsthand. But, to be sure, what God is doing through Christ and the church is something way beyond natural comprehension! However, I agree that this alleged saying of WL goes farther than scripture (at least according to what I've seen so far).

With that said, I ran across some profound verses from Genesis and Ephesians that I'm really considering this week, which are stretching my thinking in this matter:

And the LORD God built (lit.) the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam. And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” Genesis 2:22-23

For we are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones. Ephesians 5:30

(Note: Some translations omit the last part of Ephesians 5:30, "of His flesh, and of His bones." However, my Greek interlinear has it.)

Of course, these verses immediately caused me to remember Mathew 16:18 - "I will build My Church . . ."

So these words really stirred something in me! In light of these verses - what is the church?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

We've had a few discussions on here about who believers and the church are in Christ, that is: what is our new identity in Him? I think WL is alleged to have said, "God became man so man could become God." I'm not sure the authenticity of this quote, since I didn't hear it firsthand. But, to be sure, what God is doing through Christ and the church is something way beyond natural comprehension! However, I agree that this alleged saying of WL goes father than scripture (at least according to what I've seen so far).

I heard Lee say these words, in person, in a weekend conference, Irving, TX. However, when this message was reduced to print, as all his messages were, there was NOTHING in print regarding “man becomes God”.

This was common...covering Lee by taking heretical words out of his mouth...

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Thanks for that confirmation. What do you think of the verses presented, "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh"?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

...With that said, I ran across some profound verses from Genesis and Ephesians that I'm really considering this week, which are stretching my thinking in this matter:[

And the LORD God built (lit.) the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam. And Adam said:
“This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.” Genesis 2:22-23

For we are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones. Ephesians 5:30

(Note: Some translations omit the last part of Ephesians 5:30, "of His flesh, and of His bones." However, my Greek interlinear has it.)
...

First, questions:

If the verses were properly translated, if woman was built from a "rib" from the side of the man, why does the verse say "of his flesh and of his bones"?
Why does it not it simply say "we are members of his body, of his bones"?

As you have noted, could there be a translation issue? Is it possible that there is more than one translation issue?

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

First, questions:

If the verses were properly translated, if woman was built from a "rib" from the side of the man, why does the verse say "of his flesh and of his bones"?
Why does it not it simply say "we are members of his body, of his bones"?

As you have noted, could there be a translation issue? Is it possible that there is more than one translation issue?

Nell

It is an interesting passage in Ephesians, to be sure! Some commentaries Below is a quote from one commentary from this page.

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
For we are members of his body - Of the body of Christ; see 1 Corinthians 11:3, note; 1 Corinthians 12:27, note; John 15:1-6, notes, and Ephesians 1:23, note. The idea here is, that there is a close and intimate union between the Christian and the Saviour - a union so intimate that they may be spoken of as "one".

Of his flesh, and of his bones - There is an allusion here evidently to the language which Adam used respecting Eve. "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh;" Genesis 2:23. It is language which is employed to denote the closeness of the marriage relation, and which Paul applies to the connection between Christ and his people. Of course, it cannot be understood "literally." It is not true literally that our bones are a part of the bones of Christ, or our flesh of his flesh; nor should language ever be used that would imply a miraculous union. It is not a physical union, but a union of attachment; of feeling; of love. If we avoid the notion of a "physical" union, however, it is scarcely possible to use too strong language in describing the union of believers with the Lord Jesus.

I've read that some of the oldest manuscripts don't have "of His flesh and of His bones," but it's also said that other reliable manuscripts include this phrase. Therefore some translations carry it while others don't. In any case, the whole passage in Ephesians 5 is portraying marriage, which is a picture of Christ & the church. This seems to hearken back to the first husband and wife, Adam & Eve. Eve was produced by something out of Adam.

[Sons to Glory!]

I was driving and listening to my NIV Live audio yesterday and it came to 1st Corinthians 15. I started this thread with the thoughts of "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh" still in me. As I heard Paul's words in this chapter about a seed dying before it could come with its new body, it occurred to me that this was certainly applicable to Christ. That is, according to the words of Jesus, the "grain of wheat fell into the ground to die, to bring forth many grains," namely, the church. Consider that as you read these verses below. (below is 1 Corinthians 15:35-49, with verses 39-41 excluded as they seem parenthetical)

But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” You fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or something else. But God gives it a body as He has designed, and to each kind of seed He gives its own body.

So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving Spirit.

The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

It's interesting that this passage is where the phrase, "The Last Adam [became] a life-giving Spirit" is used, isn't it? The context, to me, shows that the reason the Last Adam became a life-giving Spirit is for the producing of the church! This is the result of the One Grain dying. The first Adam had a rib taken to produce his wife; similarly, something came out from the Last Adam to produce His wife!

I must declare it again: WHAT HAS GOD WROUGHT!?

Just remembered to add these verses (20-22) from the same chapter:

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Again, this whole passage in 1st Corinthians 15 is talking about producing the church!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Nell

First, questions:

If the verses were properly translated, if woman was built from a "rib" from the side of the man, why does the verse say "of his flesh and of his bones"?
Why does it not it simply say "we are members of his body, of his bones"?

As you have noted, could there be a translation issue? Is it possible that there is more than one translation issue?

Nell

Here is an interesting answer, from Israel Bible Center, on the translation of "tsela"....RIB or ENTIRE SIDE?

https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com...ome-adams-rib/

"Most English translations of Genesis 2:21-22 read, “The Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its place. And the rib that the Lord God took from the man he built into a woman.”

The description of the woman made from the man’s “rib” has led to the mistaken conclusion that women are inferior to men because they originate from one small part of the male anatomy. Yet the Hebrew word צלע (tsela) does not mean “rib,” but rather “side.” According to Exodus, for example, God told Moses to make four gold rings for the Ark of the Covenant, “two rings on one side (צלע; tsela) of it, and two rings on the other side of it” (Exod 25:12). Likewise, when God takes one tsela from the man to make the woman, Eve comes from an entire side of Adam’s body, not a single rib.

Adam’s own words clarify that Eve comes from one of his sides when he declares of his wife, “Finally, this is bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh!” (Gen 2:23). Had Eve been created from the man’s rib alone, Adam would only have been able to say that she was “bone of his bone.” As Adam’s bone and flesh, the woman is the man’s “other half.” When man and woman cleave to one another and return to being “one flesh” (2:24), the two equal halves of humanity are brought back together."

[Ohio]

Thanks, Raptor, for your "digging." I like this.

It's rare when I find something here suitable to share with my wife.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Thanks, Raptor, for your "digging." I like this.

It's rare when I find something here suitable to share with my wife.

Well I think that says something about this forum - that you find little to share with your wife! (is it normally of little value, or nothing that would be edifying, or . . . ?)

So, since this is the LC Discussion board, let me throw this out. WL is accused of Modalism (or at least of teaching the traditional Trinity one moment & Modalism the next). My understanding of Modalism is that it says the one God processed/changed Himself into the Son and then into Spirit. Considering that the mystery of God is Christ, and the mystery of Christ is the church, the natural progression of Modalism would seem to be that God then processed/changed Himself into the church.

So this discussion sort of dovetails with the discussion we've been having about the Triune God and Modalism, right? Does Modalistic thinking then lend itself to thinking we become God?

Personally speaking, from what I've seen, many Christians do not have a very full picture of what the ekklesia is really being called into - the bride and body of Christ, and a dwelling place of God in Spirit. The bible calls us sons and heirs of God and the picture of the church portrayed in Ephesians is exceedingly breathtaking, but I haven't found where it says implicitly that we become God.

To be sure, the revelation of who we have been made in Christ is beyond amazing, and this is a mystery I doubt we will have a full revelation of until we loose this current tent or He fully reveals it to us now!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Well I think that says something about this forum - that you find little to share with your wife! (is it normally of little value, or nothing that would be edifying, or . . . ?)

It's definitely a touchy subject!

I told the story one time when I helped some family members move. I picked up a box of books labeled "ministry books" and was asked, "do you need to sign a waiver to carry those?"

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Nell

First, questions: If the verses were properly translated, if woman was built from a "rib" from the side of the man, why does the verse say "of his flesh and of his bones"?
Why does it not it simply say "we are members of his body, of his bones"?
As you have noted, could there be a translation issue? Is it possible that there is more than one translation issue?
Nell

I think that the problem is not really translation — unless we remain convinced that everything about the story of creation is literal, or that if metaphorical in any way, we need to milk each metaphor for all the possible places it could go.

Eliminate those and the rib is sufficient as a metaphor. It need not marry-up to modern terminology or anything literal. All it needs to do is establish that God created with the end result that we are of two genders.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

For we are members of his body, of His flesh, and of His bones. Ephesians 5:30

(Note: Some translations omit the last part of Ephesians 5:30, "of His flesh, and of His bones." However, my Greek interlinear has it.)

The better Greek Texts do not have this extra section in red.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The better Greek Texts do not have this extra section in red.

Yes, as I also pointed out earlier - it is not included in most minority (earlier) texts. So that notwithstanding, the passage I presented in 1 Corinthians 15:20-49 in a subsequent post (see post #6) is talking about what?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, as I also pointed out earlier - it is not included in most minority (earlier) texts. So that notwithstanding, the passage I presented in 1 Corinthians 15:20-49 in a subsequent post (see post #6) is talking about what?

It's not so much about the church, but about resurrection. Firstly the Last Adam, then those who are Christ's.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It's not so much about the church, but about resurrection. Firstly the Last Adam, then those who are Christ's.

You're right and that's how I read it too. But I began to see there are also quite a number of references to the church here. Consider some of the words and reference used in this passage (1 Cor 15:20-49) like, firstfruits, Adam, "enemies under His feet," the flesh being sown as a seed and resurrection verses.

* The word "firstfruits" implicitly says there is a first something with other somethings coming after.

* Adam is a type of Christ - something taken from Adam produced Eve, who is a picture of the church

* "Enemies under His feet" sounds like Romans 16:20: "And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet."

* Christ's flesh was sown to bring forth something in resurrection - many grains

Then in verse 50 it starts talking about us inheriting the kingdom and our flesh being changed. Is this not also the church?

How is the church produced and what facilitates that happening? "The last Adam became a life-giving Spirit."

[Ohio]

The church is the body of Christ, His spiritual body on earth.

Many experiences of Christ will also be experienced by His body.