Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!

[UntoHim]

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

[Trapped]

His speaking doesn't even line up with their own MOTA doctrine. The MOTA is (according to them) the person in each age that releases the vision of that age. For Ron to describe Lee as "a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out" as if he was somehow unique makes no sense, because that's the very definition of MOTA to begin with, and has historically been used to ascribe MOTA status in previous ages to the people that Ron has now newly put down in the quote.

Now Ron is creating, like, a "pinnacle-MOTA". How can anyone within the movement not see this is idolatry and totally contrary to Scripture?

When/where was this spoken anyway, do we know?

[UntoHim]

"Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution"
Well, thank God that John Nelson Darby didn't have Brother Nee's constitution - If he did the world probably wouldn't have had any of JND's fine translations into English, French and German, all from the original languages by a genuine scholar.

"Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution"
Well, we should be doubly thankful to God for this one! Instead of having led the greatest revival/renaissance the Christian church has ever seen, Luther might of been out there hiring and firing elders and co-workers at his personal whim, selling meeting halls and church land to pay off his personal debts, allowing his porn addicted, alcoholic son sexually to assault sisters in his ministry offices, teaching all sorts of heresy, and claiming he was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. Wow...maybe we all dodged a bullet on that one!
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[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution"
Well, thank God that John Nelson Darby didn't have Brother Nee's constitution - If he did the world probably wouldn't have had any of JND's fine translations into English, French and German, all from the original languages by a genuine scholar.

Lee coming a century later had opportunity to learn from Darby's mistakes with Mueller & Newton. Nothing was learned since history was clearly repeated.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Lee coming a century later had opportunity to learn from Darby's mistakes with Mueller & Newton. Nothing was learned since history was clearly repeated.

I suppose we need to ask whether these were actually "mistakes."

In the mid 1840's, there were clearly several of the Brethren whose maturity and fruitfulness became most evident. Darby, of course. The scholarly B.W. Newton was the primary minister in Plymouth, by far the largest Brethren assembly, and the reason the entire movement became known as the "Plymouth Brethren." George Mueller, one of the elders in Bristol, and founder of the orphanages. A. N. Groves who was perhaps the original of the Brethren, but who soon left England for mission work in Iraq and India. Robert Chapman in Barnstable, later called the "apostle of love."

Darby considered Newton his chief rival for movement leadership. After Newton was tragically widowed, Darby spent a couple years destroying his work, his church in Plymouth, and his reputation. Muller later crossed Darby by refusing to be subjected to his demands. The Brethren became forever divided, but Darby emerged the undisputed leader.

Perhaps it was not a "mistake," but the plan all along.

[Trapped]

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!

How is this not simply a Pauline version of a Petrine pope?

How is this not exalting a man?

How is this not idolatry?

HOW DOES DECEPTION WORK SO WELL ON SO MANY?!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution"
Well, thank God that John Nelson Darby didn't have Brother Nee's constitution - If he did the world probably wouldn't have had any of JND's fine translations into English, French and German, all from the original languages by a genuine scholar.

"Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution"
Well, we should be doubly thankful to God for this one! Instead of having led the greatest revival/renaissance the Christian church has ever seen, Luther might of been out there hiring and firing elders and co-workers at his personal whim, selling meeting halls and church land to pay off his personal debts, allowing his porn addicted, alcoholic son sexually to assault sisters in his ministry offices, teaching all sorts of heresy, and claiming he was the only person speaking as God's oracle on earth. Wow...maybe we all dodged a bullet on that one!
-

Thus will it not be among you.

Matthew 20:20-28

Then the mother of the sons of Zebedee came to Him with her sons, kneeling down and asking something from Him.
And He said to her, “What do you desire?”
She says to Him, “Say that these two sons of mine might sit, one on Your right hand and one on Your left hand, in Your kingdom.”
And Jesus answering, said, “You do not know what you ask for. Are you able to drink the cup which I am about to drink?”
They say to Him, “We are able.”
He says to them, “Indeed you will drink My cup, but to sit on My right hand and on My left, this is not Mine to give, but for whom it has been prepared by My Father.”
And the ten having heard this, were indignant about the two brothers. And Jesus having summoned them, said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them, and the great ones exercise authority over them. And it will it not be among you. But whoever wishes to become great among you, he will be your servant; whoever wishes to be first among you, he will be your slave— even as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

[Freedom]

The whole thing is just so absurd. First of all it doesn't even make sense for Ron to be comparing any of those that he names with Nee or Lee. They were all alive at different points in history. If they were all peers it might make more sense, but then again, the LC is really the only group out there doing these kinds of comparisons.

Secondly, if Ron wants to talk about "constitution" then he better look first at Nee and Lee. Last time I checked, Luther, Westley, etc weren't the ones who tried getting church members involved in a pharmaceutical company or motorhome investment scam.

[Trapped]

I kinda just wonder if this is their way of trying to increase the fervor of devotion. I just don't recall this level of slavering over Nee and Lee in previous years. Is this all they know to do to try to stay relevant and keep members?

Or is the devil just having a field day keeping a group of Christians starry-eyed over idols rather than the living God?

[byHismercy]

It won't be long before they require all members to purchase a new "I IDOLIZE Witness Lee" button to be worn in all public venues and at home (except in the shower). Every six weeks, a new button with a similar Lee slogan will be available for members on lsm.org

Quarterly available for purchase will be the Lee t-shirts. Blue or black only, of course. Receipt for your purchase will be emailed to you at home. Now go drink your koolaid. Lols

[Raptor]

In one video (I wish I had the reference), RK asks a rhetorical question, talking about WL, saying, "can we honor him too much"? And maybe the same video, I remember..."we owe everything to him".

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I kinda just wonder if this is their way of trying to increase the fervor of devotion. I just don't recall this level of slavering over Nee and Lee in previous years. Is this all they know to do to try to stay relevant and keep members?

Or is the devil just having a field day keeping a group of Christians starry-eyed over idols rather than the living God?

He gets worse by the year. 10 years from now we will look back and comment that Ron Kangas almost seemed "sane" compared to "now" in 2030.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

-

When was this statement made?

[UntoHim]

Here is a larger video clip in which this cultic statement was made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRJhTQXT2_g

This message was probably given sometime between the Winter Training (end of Dec through beginning of Jan 2020) and when the virus shut everything down. When this message was given is not nearly as important as what is said by Ron Kangas.
-

[Nell]

Who talks like this? Why does does this group need to credit Lee for any work of the Holy Spirit that may have been present?

Minoru Chen embodies the “spirit of Witness Lee”, and now Mr. Kangas anoints him MVP.

Consider Billy Graham. He was a humble servant who spent his life preaching the gospel. His lifetime of evangelism spoke for itself. He raised a son who doesn’t speak without sharing the gospel. Franklin Graham is boots on the ground bringing physical healing and hope to people all over the world.

Does anyone talk about Billy Graham or his son like this? I would imagine Franklin would be repulsed if such talk began about his father. These men of God were/are true servants. Witness Lee was a talker.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

Who talks like this? Why does does this group need to credit Lee for any work of the Holy Spirit that may have been present?

Minoru Chen embodies the “spirit of Witness Lee”, and now Mr. Kangas anoints him MVP.

Consider Billy Graham. He was a humble servant who spent his life preaching the gospel. His lifetime of evangelism spoke for itself. He raised a son who doesn’t speak without sharing the gospel. Franklin Graham is boots on the ground bringing physical healing and hope to people all over the world.

Does anyone talk about Billy Graham or his son like this? I would imagine Franklin would be repulsed if such talk began about his father. These men of God were/are true servants. Wetness Lee was a talker.

Nell

Good points! Love does not exalt itself. However, there are other Christian groups that do this. For instance, the 7 Day Adventist really revere Ellen White in what seems a similar manner. (although I think some in the SDA church are put off somewhat by this) And of course, there's the RCC.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Here is a larger video clip in which this cultic statement was made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRJhTQXT2_g

This message was probably given sometime between the Winter Training (end of Dec through beginning of Jan 2020) and when the virus shut everything down. When this message was given is not nearly as important as what is said by Ron Kangas.
-

Listened to the whole clip. From the shorter clip I didn't understand what Ron meant when he said "where do you have to go in church history to find a match". What match? Match of what?

After listening to the longer clip, I still don't know what he means.

How he manages to hold the hand of previous ministers of the age while simultaneously biting those hands is truly something to watch. He says he is so thankful he was not in the age of the Luther MOTA or Darby MOTA but is so thankful he is in the Nee/Lee MOTA age. This is in the same very speech that he proclaims he is not exalting Nee/Lee.

What purpose does it serve to pit MOTAs against each other, and how do people not see he's doing that VERY THING he just said he's not doing?!


edit: I know MOTA is unbiblical. My point is that even inherently, assuming it's true, their own talk is nonsensical.

[byHismercy]

I poked fun at them earlier, but in reality, I wonder when they stand up before Jesus if they could utter such bold, heretical declarations. Cannot see them telling the Lord, 'I owe EVERYTHING to Witness Lee! We all do!'. I know the Lord will have them straightened out pretty quick. Maybe then they will recognize their idolatry, their pride, their vanity. Hopefully they can see it before then, and repent. Where is their recognition of the value of the gift of salvation? Don't they get it? Don't they know we owe everything.....our salvation....our eternal home....to Jesus? How can they make such wicked statements? Everything?? To WL?? EVERYTHING we see, and everything we don't came out from Him....

John 1:3
All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

I apologise for being so simplistic in my reasoning here, brothers and sisters. I guess He made me simple......I just don't understand how so many can hear these statements and not walk away.

[byHismercy]

I'm listening to this clip now. None of this garbage is taken from scripture.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I apologise for being so simplistic in my reasoning here, brothers and sisters. I guess He made me simple......I just don't understand how so many can hear these statements and not walk away.

Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it? The gospel is SIMPLE...so all who hear can believe and be saved. I was raised on the ABC steps in Vacation Bible School: Ask, Believe, Confess. I understood this as a young child, 5 years old.

“Jesus paid it all. All to him I owe. Sin had left a crimson stain, he washed me white as snow.”

Nell

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Here is a larger video clip in which this cultic statement was made:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRJhTQXT2_g

This message was probably given sometime between the Winter Training (end of Dec through beginning of Jan 2020) and when the virus shut everything down. When this message was given is not nearly as important as what is said by Ron Kangas.
-

Ooops, That video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Living Stream Ministry!

However a similarly crazy rant in 2007 by Ron Kangas about the supposed successions of MOTA from Noah to Lee can be heard at this link starting at about 47 minutes and building up to a cultic frenzied climax around 1 hour 7 minutes.

A short 3 1/2 minute video clip of the most horrendous part of that same recording can be downloaded here.


P.S.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

Hello all,

I was trying to see this video of RK foaming about the LR, but looks like it gone from the web. Does anyone know where to find it?

Thanks

[zeek]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

I would say Ron is entitled to his opinion, but you know what Witness Lee said about opinions.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by zeek

I would say Ron is entitled to his opinion, but you know what Witness Lee said about opinions.

Exactly. Why should we listen to Ron Kangas?

Originally Posted by zeek

I would say Ron is entitled to his opinion, but you know what Witness Lee said about opinions.

If you think that this is Ron’s opinion, you haven’t read or heard enough from this person. This is not his opinion, that’s what his whole belief system is built on. It’s the foundation of his faith, foundation of the system that the Local church is. That’s why he is one of those people who will beat others over their heads with rhetoric of this nature. I believe if you take away Witness Lee and Watchman Nee from the local church, the system will collapse to its core, and reveal that vast majority of those in it, will suffer major problems in their Christian faith. I highly doubt that Ron K. can function without a daily dose of Lee, or his spirit.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you think that this is Ron’s opinion, you haven’t read or heard enough from this person. This is not his opinion, that’s what his whole belief system is built on. It’s the foundation of his faith, foundation of the system that the Local church is. That’s why he is one of those people who will beat others over their heads with rhetoric of this nature. I believe if you take away Witness Lee and Watchman Nee from the local church, the system will collapse to its core, and reveal that vast majority of those in it, will suffer major problems in their Christian faith. I highly doubt that Ron K. can function without a daily dose of Lee, or his spirit.

Indeed. Yet it still doesn't change the fact that their foundation is built on opinions.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If you think that this is Ron’s opinion, you haven’t read or heard enough from this person. This is not his opinion, that’s what his whole belief system is built on. It’s the foundation of his faith, foundation of the system that the Local church is. That’s why he is one of those people who will beat others over their heads with rhetoric of this nature. I believe if you take away Witness Lee and Watchman Nee from the local church, the system will collapse to its core, and reveal that vast majority of those in it, will suffer major problems in their Christian faith. I highly doubt that Ron K. can function without a daily dose of Lee, or his spirit.

I know Ron Kangas. He was an elder in the church in Detroit, where I first came in contact with the so-called lord's recovery. He was a phenom of spirituality and when, after a year living in the brothers house, I sat in his car with him after a meeting and explained how I had become disillusioned with the state of the local church he prayed with me. We migrated together from Detroit to Fort Lauderdale in a caravan of cars. There brothers who had been elders in this several churches competed for the eldership position in the newly consolidated church. It was a spectacle to behold, but Ron didn’t stay. Witness Lee called him out to Anaheim to work editing his messages for a living stream.

So thank you for your opinion about Ron's opinion. He obviously thinks it's more than an opinion, and apparently so do you. I haven’t seen him or spoken to him since he left Fort Lauderdale. People are deeper and more complex than I could possibly know. What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts. That’s beyond me. May the Spirit of truth guide us from mere opinions into all truth.

Originally Posted by zeek

I know Ron Kangas. He was an elder in the church in Detroit, where I first came in contact with the so-called lord's recovery. He was a phenom of spirituality and when, after a year living in the brothers house, I sat in his car with him after a meeting and explained how I had become disillusioned with the state of the local church he prayed with me. We migrated together from Detroit to Fort Lauderdale in a caravan of cars. There brothers who had been elders in this several churches competed for the eldership position in the newly consolidated church. It was a spectacle to behold, but Ron didn’t stay. Witness Lee called him out to Anaheim to work editing his messages for a living stream.
So thank you for your opinion about Ron's opinion. He obviously thinks it's more than an opinion, and apparently so do you. I haven’t seen him or spoken to him since he left Fort Lauderdale. People are deeper and more complex than I could possibly know. What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts. That’s beyond me. May the Spirit of truth guide us from mere opinions into all truth.

Your personal encounters with Ron may have clouded your thinking about him and what he is all about. I’ve been there, and Ron was one of my favorite “speakers” on conferences and trainings for many years. I can admit that I was willing to give him more rope on his speaking than any other person in the whole LSM. Even when I knew inside that what he said in some of his tirades was just plain dung, (as the MOTA has labeled it). I was willing to compromise the truth for it tickled my ears enough to feel good about myself and what I was a part of.

It is not until I left, and one day was reading John 7, when Jesus said the following statements:
…………………
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17*If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18*He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.………….
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
……………….
Your “opinion” about, “What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts.” directly contradicts Jesus himself in the above text. We are to be able to judge for ourselves and discern what and for who these people are speaking for, unfortunately. It will lead to conflict and even divide. Truth divides people, if you like it or not!

You also notice that in Jesus’s own words in Mat 12:24-30, He didn’t condemn the servants for recognizing the differences between the wheat and tares, (which people overlook from the context on purpose to avoid conflict). Why is this important? Because it allows true believers to protect themselves from wolves and false brethren that have crept in. It’s is not our job to go and uproot them, or to get rid of them, God forbid, we leave them to God to do that, but to point them out and avoid them is what every true believer ought to be doing. May God give them according to their works, and may He give us true discernment to be able to make distinctions between man who are there pointing people to Christ, vs pointing people to follow fools like Witness Lee. The person’s speaking and his life doesn’t contradict each other, and if it ever does, there must be contrition or repentance. That never happened in the local church since it’s invention or inception, not with Nee and definitely not with Lee.

Ron is one of the most divisive individuals on earth, who has lost his way long time ago, when he sold his soul to Witness Lee for a position that he still hold to this day. What is unfortunate now, that there aren’t any or very few people today who are willing to say things out loud, call and point out the tares that have made a havoc in a lot of peoples lives. Everyone is looking for peace and tranquillity, oneness, but not many are willing to put their neck on the line to point out the embarrassment that is the local church. You can keep defending it, trying to make it sound as if there was positives to be had, but the fruits say otherwise, and that’s how you determine the difference between the truth and the false reality which has a lot of people in bondage today.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Your personal encounters with Ron may have clouded your thinking about him and what he is all about. I’ve been there, and Ron was one of my favorite “speakers” on conferences and trainings for many years. I can admit that I was willing to give him more rope on his speaking than any other person in the whole LSM. Even when I knew inside that what he said in some of his tirades was just plain dung, (as the MOTA has labeled it). I was willing to compromise the truth for it tickled my ears enough to feel good about myself and what I was a part of.

It is not until I left, and one day was reading John 7, when Jesus said the following statements:
…………………
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
17*If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
18*He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.………….
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
……………….
Your “opinion” about, “What we see of people are surfaces. God judges the hearts.” directly contradicts Jesus himself in the above text. We are to be able to judge for ourselves and discern what and for who these people are speaking for, unfortunately. It will lead to conflict and even divide. Truth divides people, if you like it or not!

You also notice that in Jesus’s own words in Mat 12:24-30, He didn’t condemn the servants for recognizing the differences between the wheat and tares, (which people overlook from the context on purpose to avoid conflict). Why is this important? Because it allows true believers to protect themselves from wolves and false brethren that have crept in. It’s is not our job to go and uproot them, or to get rid of them, God forbid, we leave them to God to do that, but to point them out and avoid them is what every true believer ought to be doing. May God give them according to their works, and may He give us true discernment to be able to make distinctions between man who are there pointing people to Christ, vs pointing people to follow fools like Witness Lee. The person’s speaking and his life doesn’t contradict each other, and if it ever does, there must be contrition or repentance. That never happened in the local church since it’s invention or inception, not with Nee and definitely not with Lee.

Ron is one of the most divisive individuals on earth, who has lost his way long time ago, when he sold his soul to Witness Lee for a position that he still hold to this day. What is unfortunate now, that there aren’t any or very few people today who are willing to say things out loud, call and point out the tares that have made a havoc in a lot of peoples lives. Everyone is looking for peace and tranquillity, oneness, but not many are willing to put their neck on the line to point out the embarrassment that is the local church. You can keep defending it, trying to make it sound as if there was positives to be had, but the fruits say otherwise, and that’s how you determine the difference between the truth and the false reality which has a lot of people in bondage today.

Thank you for your instructive reply. If you think I was lauding or defending Mr. Kangas, I must have expressed myself poorly. I was merely recounting that I knew the man personally.

Look at my signature line if you will. You’ll see my name there, the years I spent in the local churches and when I left. If I had followed the discernment of the spirit, I wouldn’t have stayed a week, let alone 13 years. I saw, the hate and coldness in Witness Lee’s spirit even in the videos, and I ignored it. I learned my lesson. The irony is , I was being taught to follow my spirit. To actually follow it would have been to get out of there as fast as I could run.

Now, you’re a bit mistaken in your application of John 7 to my poor words. Judging by appearance, was exactly what I was avoiding when I spoke of surfaces. “Righteous judgement” is the Lord’s. Those that “hunger and thirst for righteousness” hunger and thirst for God. Accept no substitute.

Now, I appreciate what you’re saying. Forgive me if I don’t always agree. As the videos have illustrated, we are all fallible, our opinions can change. I have only the sketchiest knowledge of Mr. Kangas and the Lord’s recovery movement since I left. So whatever judgement I make of it is provisional.

Your last paragraph is perhaps the critical one we need to focus on. After leaving the LC I spent decades in agnosticism questioning everything I had learned there. In dialogues on this forum we call this post LC phenomenon “throwing the baby out with the bathwater.” I don’t think that is what you intend.

I hope that you will join me in affirming that, whether we are speaking here, producing youtube videos or whatever, we want to practice the true oneness of the Spirit.

Ultimately it is up to the Good Shepherd to “recover” every lost lamb. We at best can give pointers in a process that is between the Lord and the individual soul and at the very least, may we not get in the way.

I marvel at the Lord’s inscrutable ways in allowing me if not leading me into the local churches, the deep truths I learned there mixed as they were with leaven. I don’t think the years I spent studying the Bible there were spent in vain. What do think?

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

For people to understand the Lords Recovery movement, you should look at historical view called sacerdotalism. In truth, and through reading their writings and in their messages, you can trace this belief as a cornerstone for all of their supposed ministries. Unfortunately, this is not a New Testament order or something that any man should be subjected to. Messages of this nature including this statement form Ron Kangas is precisely why this movement has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Be the light.

For people to understand the Lords Recovery movement, you should look at historical view called sacerdotalism. In truth, and through reading their writings and in their messages, you can trace this belief as a cornerstone for all of their supposed ministries. Unfortunately, this is not a New Testament order or something that any man should be subjected to. Messages of this nature including this statement form Ron Kangas is precisely why this movement has nothing to do with Biblical Christianity.

Be the light,

Welcome to the forum!

You are right, this concept of mediators features heavy in the local church in numerous forms:

• minister of the age who God gives the vision to who then give the vision to everyone else
• deputy authorities who "represent God" to you and who you are to submit to regardless of right or wrong
• "needing the covering of the brothers" - a layer of protection because apparently they have some special something the rest don't have
• "covering the sins of the brothers" - the thought that the leading brothers' sins should be covered as if they are a special class that requires special protection that only God can touch
• the ministry itself - you must go to this to get light, etc

and on and on.

The confusing thing is that in the local church truth is mixed with falsehood. I distinctly remember hearing in trainings that "we can boldly approach the throne of grace!" and they tell you to "spend time with the Lord". But then it's all inextricably packaged with the above points that negate the truth that's occasionally spoken, and so the saints can't see what's going on.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!

“I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

All this vain talk about who is the greatest was shutdown by Jesus Himself every single time it reared its ugly head. One would think that these kinds of thoughts would never again be discussed by legitimate teachers of the Bible. The basic theme throughout the Bible is simple - all men have sinned, and only God Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, should ever be uplifted, lauded, and extolled.

Not so in Recovery world. Have they not merely repeated the cries of old, “we want a king,” like all the nations have? I would say, “If someone is sober and thorough,” they would consider only Jesus!!

When real angels, and by all accounts, sinless and holy angels like Michael and Gabriel, appeared to us, they regularly admonished us to worship only God. When those in Lystra in Acts 14 tried to worship Paul, he said “stop, we are mere men like you.” After that these same fools reversed course and suddenly proceeded to stone Paul.

One characteristic of MOTA’s is their constant exaltation of their predecessors, which kind of proves RK’s ulterior motive for his comments here. The message is plain, “exalt me like I exalt WL.” Was not that WL’s hidden agenda whenever exalting WN? The Blendeds, like RK, absolutely heard that message.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One characteristic of MOTA’s is their constant exaltation of their predecessors, which kind of proves RK’s ulterior motive for his comments here. The message is plain, “exalt me like I exalt WL.” Was not that WL’s hidden agenda whenever exalting WN? The Blendeds, like RK, absolutely heard that message.

Even if you had no prior information about this movement, the fact that they incessantly prop up their human leaders, their "character" and "person" and "constitution" is a huge red flag, for reasons outlined in Ohio's post. The subsequent uncovering of the shenanigans, going back over decades, confirms the initial assessment. I got fooled. They seemed to be genuine Christians, sang the old Protestant hymns that I knew & trusted, then got me "stirred up" by the repetitive shouting, then they massaged my ego, and convinced me that I was among "God's best." Mea culpa. But now I warn others, to avoid my mistake.

[aron]

Another striking feature is that the personal bona fides are promoted by RK as evidence of primacy: no Chistian since Paul the apostle has had such sagacity and impeccable character.

Then, when bits of the truth dribble out, of the confession to producing porn, or of pressuring the flock for funds for businesses run by family, the narrative will shift, to the importance of covering drunken Noah, and respect for God's ordination, for order in the church.

So the logic reverses, and even becomes self-negating, yet everyone is supposed to disregard that. It's especially tough for those born into this cult, who are fed all this from the cradle. They must try to reconcile this dissonance, but at great psychological and emotional cost.

The narrative thrust goes from the impeccable wisdom and unparalleled character of WL, to "Hey, nobody's perfect- who are you to judge God's anointing?" This happens repeatedly, as I've tried to show elsewhere. You can probably take 5 random messages in this collection, and will find similar self-contradiction.

So the controlling vision inevitably becomes, "Do whatever you are told. Whatever Big Boss wants today is our present reality." It's a personality cult with a thin veneer of Christianity on top. The veneer is essential for recruiting purposes, but once inside, you realize that's all it was. But by then, for many, it's too late.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Even if you had no prior information about this movement, the fact that they incessantly prop up their human leaders, their "character" and "person" and "constitution" is a huge red flag, for reasons outlined in Ohio's post. The subsequent uncovering of the shenanigans, going back over decades, confirms the initial assessment. I got fooled. They seemed to be genuine Christians ...

I, of course, still believe that they all are genuine Christians, at least all the leaders I knew back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Reading the NT carefully one can see that many Christian leaders will fail us, falling into sin, immorality, or financial corruption. Dangers abound. Beware of false teachers and prophets. We should be careful never to interpret these ones in scripture as fakes or non-Christians. Apologist Ravi Zacharias is a recent example of a well-respected Christian who fell into sin. Many more can be cited.

Back during the "new way" of the late 80's, when I went to Taiwan to participate in the Lord's "up-to-date" move, there was a scandal breaking over the news concerning televangelists Jim and Tammie Bakker. Regularly I was reminded by LC and LSM leaders, and WL himself, that the Recovery was altogether holy, pure, godly, and absolutely free from any sort of financial, sinful, or moral corruption as we saw played out on the media.

I believed it all. I got fooled too! How could I know? Am I responsible for that which I was unaware of?

Fast forward to the Midwest Quarantines, which really started behind the scenes after WL passed, and gained momentum after Y2K. Now we all had the internet, the old Bereans forum began, and even Plymouth Brethren writings were now available. The written accounts of a number of well-respected former members, like John Ingalls of Anaheim, were digitized and posted for internet availability. The number of honest and believable testimonies that became available during the quarantine was overwhelming.

It was a light shining in a dark place, the rotten spirit hidden in LSM past.

On several occasions WL told us all from the podium concerning John Ingalls that "People Change." Yes, they do. But it was not John Ingalls who changed. He was faithful unto death. It was WL who changed.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I, of course, still believe that they all are genuine Christians, at least all the leaders I knew back in the 70's, 80's, and 90's. Reading the NT carefully one can see that many Christian leaders will fail us, falling into sin, immorality, or financial corruption.

Regularly I was reminded by LC and LSM leaders, and WL himself, that the Recovery was altogether holy, pure, godly, and absolutely free from any sort of financial, sinful, or moral corruption as we saw played out on the media.

Fast forward to the Midwest Quarantines, which really started behind the scenes after WL passed, and gained momentum after Y2K. Now we all had the internet, the old Bereans forum began, and even Plymouth Brethren writings were now available. The written accounts of a number of well-respected former members, like John Ingalls of Anaheim, were digitized and posted for internet availability. The number of honest and believable testimonies that became available during the quarantine was overwhelming.

It was a light shining in a dark place, the rotten spirit hidden in LSM past.

On several occasions WL told us all from the podium concerning John Ingalls that "People Change." Yes, they do. But it was not John Ingalls who changed. He was faithful unto death. It was WL who changed.

Christian leaders falling into sin will happen in "Christianity", but certainly not in the Recovery? To some degree it was just covered up better in the Recovery. You know the saying "cover the brothers"? It could be utilized to say cover the sinning brother. Not just in the local churches, but I have been in non-local churches where a "good brother" may be the receive covering or looking the other way. It takes the sisters to say, "No! This is unacceptable!" Then the leadership listens. Not in the local churches. It is too patriarchal. Voices of sisters is not truly regarded as members of the Body. Yes brothers will say sisters are members of the Body, but it is only lip service. Actions and words from the podium says otherwise.
It is also said what other Christian leaders would do, Witness Lee would not do. Was Witness Lee any different? From a business perspective, certainly not. For a time Witness Lee was able to cover it better. It could very well be the John Ingalls, Albert Knochs, and Bill Mallons of the recovery had no knowledge. Whereas the Titus Chus, Benson Phillips, Ray Gravers, Minoru Chens, and James Lees of the recovery did have some inkling and choose to look the other way. By the internet age it became much more difficult to continually cover Witness Lee. The curtain had been pulled back for all to see how corrupt the the recovery movement really was. Villains receive covering whereas victims are scorned. At best the recovery movement is a sect and at worst, it is a cult. Because I was taught Witness Lee was the modern day apostle Paul, how could you not call the recovery a cult?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

...On several occasions WL told us all from the podium concerning John Ingalls that "People Change." Yes, they do. But it was not John Ingalls who changed. He was faithful unto death. It was WL who changed.

Not long after John Ingalls split from Lee, he visited some of us in a private home the Dallas area. During a break in the action, I reminded him of a message he gave in the "early days" in Dallas in which he said something like "even if 'Bro. Lee' would forsake 'this way', I will never...". John replied "I DID???" with his eyes really big.

We all laughed at him, remembering this classic John Ingalls expression! He was indeed true to his word...he was following the Lord and not Lee.

Although, based on Austin Sparks' Chapter 9, it seems that Lee was compromised from at least back in the '50's in Taipei. Rather than changing, Lee seems to have hidden his nature and revealed his "true ministry" strategically maybe after Nee's death. Norms of the Chinese culture may have influenced Lee's allegiance to Nee.

Nell

[aron]

There's an app called ChatGPT, where users ask questions in a conversational style, and get an AI-generated answer, which is based off of scraping the internet (up till 2021) and then a program which predicts how people form language. It's kind of fun - you can repeat the question and it will generate a new answer each time (it's occasionally very wrong, so user beware).

I asked, "Who were the Lollards" and this was the answer

Originally Posted by ChatGPT

The Lollards were a group of religious reformers in England during the 14th and 15th centuries. They were followers of John Wycliffe, an English theologian who advocated for the translation of the Bible into English and criticized many of the practices and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church.

The Lollards rejected the authority of the Pope and the clergy, and emphasized the importance of individual interpretation of the Bible. They also criticized many of the sacraments and rituals of the Church, and called for a simpler form of worship.

The Lollards were persecuted by the authorities, and many were burned at the stake for their beliefs. Despite this, their ideas continued to spread, and their influence can be seen in the later English Reformation.

I was struck by the phrase "emphasized the importance of individual interpretation of the Bible." The so-called Lord's Recovery of Witness Lee follows a standard Reformist/Protestant rubric, aligning with the above, except the individual interpretation of the Bible part. There, they've done a neat twist: they emphasize rather the importance of one individual's interpretation of the Bible. That individual is the Apostle of the Age.

Try to follow me here: the religious lineage says, "we emphasize the individual interpretation of the Bible." Luther, Wesley, or any trained believer could read the plain words and figure out for themselves what it meant, and how to apply. Then, one believer comes along, and says that his individual interpretation is that everyone has to be "one" with his individual interpretation. Get it? He uses his freedom to interpret, as a lever to remove everyone else's freedom to interpret. His freedom of speech negates that of everyone else.

Now, suddenly the RecV footnotes appear, that we all must be "absolutely identical", and "without any differences whatever". So, one Christian believer has used their freedom to interpret the Bible, as a tool to remove everyone else's freedom. It's a pretty neat maneuver, if I do say.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

... one Christian believer has used their freedom to interpret the Bible, as a tool to remove everyone else's freedom. It's a pretty neat maneuver, if I do say.

It's a neat maneuver, and frequently used, more often than it's users would want you to know. If multiple people out there are claiming to be the unique apostle of the age, by definition either all of them are wrong, or all but one are wrong. But they can't all be right.

Here's a church called Shincheonji Church of Jesus. They claim to have the anointed prophet for the present age, who like Witness Lee, had a special mountain top experience and now is the sole interpreter of the Bible. Like with Witness Lee, his freedom to interpret the Bible has taken away everyone else's. Or as Watchman Nee put it, everyone else must "get in line".

https://www.scjus.org/

They call their leader "The promised pastor".

https://www.scjus.org/promised-pastor/

It's seemingly all about Jesus, the Bible, and loving one another. But you can see the incessant references to the revealed teachings (i.e. proprietary revelations), the special out-called group affiliated with the teachings, and the special agent of God's will in the present age. At the core of his vision is that he is the sole repository of God's revealed will through the Bible today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SBvzUUwSvQ

It's uncanny, how closely this resembles Witness Lee's narrative, his teaching and his captive 'church'.

[aron]

There's a megachurch based out of Guadalajara Mexico, with over a million members, called La Luz del Mundo. Their leader is in prison for molesting minors, but they still hold that he's the apostle of the age.

https://lldm.org/

I look at these groups and they seem unhinged from Christianity and any semblance of native human common sense. How can anyone get caught up in something like this? Then I go, "Oh - I fell for the same thing."

From a BBC article in 2019, when the predatory actions of the supposed apostle first came to light.

Originally Posted by BBC

"It is the church with the most faithful among all those who rose in Mexico," explains Renee de la Torre, an anthropologist specializing in religion at the Center for Research andand Higher Studies in Social Anthropology (CIESAS). It arose in 1926 in the context of the Cristero War, a struggle between the Catholic Church and the Mexican State and precisely Jalisco, the state whose capital is Guadalajara, and was one of the most affected.

"La Luz del Mundo is part of a wave of native Christian churches that emerged in Latin America among very popular sectors. Of a messianic style with leaders who announced that they had been chosen to re-found the original Christian church and that they were the chosen people," says the researcher.

He explains that the hostility between the Catholics and the new converts made the latter want to live in a community. Thanks to the governor of that time, they got some land that at that time was on the outskirts of the city. The church sectioned off the land and offered it to its community so that they could buy in installments and build their houses. This is how this neighborhood called Hermosa Provincia became populated with "brothers". "One thing that doesn't exist in any other church in Mexico," de la Torre explains.

Other than being 1926 Mexico, how is this different from what happened in China in 1922, and after? The parallels are striking.

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-i...ional-61688059

https://www.bbc.com/mundo/noticias-i...ional-48521530

It's sort of like an astronomer looking at the heavens and seeing something 'out there', and realizing, "We're not alone." In this case, I look at these groups, and how widespread the "apostle of the age" scam is, and realize that it's widespread because it works. We're not alone.

[aron]

Sorry - one more - Iglesia Ni Cristo, established and run for over a century by Manalo family et al, now a global parachurch organization & multimedia corporation.

"Manalo—who is upheld by members to be the last messenger of God—was an act of divine providence and the fulfillment of biblical prophecy concerning the re-establishment of the original church of Christ in the Far East concurrent with the coming of the seventh seal marking the end of days."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iglesia_ni_Cristo

This was originated in the Philippines, circa 1914, then tracks in tandem with the Nee/Lee groups: exclusion, peculiarity, control, unwavering focus on the supposedly unique anointed messenger Felix Manalo. Christianity is a useful cover for recruitment, and then for control.

There's a lot of groups like this - they only have to convince you that this person is God's special messenger/apostle/prophet to interpret/reveal/unveil the Bible in these last days, and establish/recover/rebuild the original/true/genuine church. They'll manufacture some crisis situation, and get you to yield, and have an emotional overload/rush that you're in the group, then they can do what they want, and you'll go along. It's really disconcerting, how suggestive & pliable the human race is to manipulation & control mechanisms. I was there.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by aron

Sorry - one more -

How about this one: "church of the living word", now "living word fellowship". Here is someones commentary:

https://johnrobertstevens.wordpress....obert-stevens/

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

[Witness Lee used] his freedom to interpret, as a lever to remove everyone else's freedom to interpret. His freedom of speech negates that of everyone else..

In my last few posts, we saw how this has been played out multiple times in the post-Protestant world: new religious groups which say they're Christian, and seem to have a strong interest in the Bible and its story of God's redemption in Jesus Christ. Yet their insistence that one individual's interpretation is the penultimate word, at the expense of everyone else's, creates a very non-Christian environment, and the church becomes a personality cult, a self-contained, self-referential pseudo-Christian world that shuts off the outside and gets stranger and stranger as the decades pass.

In the case of La Luz del Mundo, the current apostle Naason Garcia is in prison for the next 18 years, for perversions that would make the most permissive, liberal unbeliever recoil. Yet the group continues to regard him as apostle. No corrective mechanism is available.

In the case of the Shincheonji Church of Jesus, the leader, Lee Man-hee believes that he is the embodied Paraclete, the new John the Baptist, who is to usher in a new heaven and new earth.

In the case of Felix Manolo, group members hold that he's likewise the "last messenger" who's to bring the end of history. But he didn't bring the end of history - he died like everyone else. When he died, his son and then grandson were then to carry on the supposed vision of the age. The vision becomes circular and self-referential - that Felix Manolo is the last messenger with the vision of the age to restore the church. The vision of the age, is that this is the vision of the age. Round and round we go...

In Witness Lee, the "greatest apostle since Paul", when he died, there was to be no more apostle, but a group of "blended brothers" who carried on the supposed vision, that he was the greatest apostle, as Ron's promoting. Pretty much identical with Felix Manolo et al. To keep the vision going, the biblical basis is abandoned.

In every case, by focusing exclusively on the interpretation of one person, the collective goes into a ditch. Eventually, sin is tolerated, ignored, covered up. Everyone is expected to get in line, to obey the latest message, no matter how ill-founded. No one else can think, or act independently, "turn off your mind" we were advised.

[**What if there are other interpretations? In my case, reading the Bible I could see that "the economy of God" is probably "give to those who cannot repay you, and you will be rewarded in the resurrection." Jesus comes to this theme continually, and Paul spends two chapters on it (2 Cor 8 and 9), and continually references this in his other epistles, in his exhortations for the collections for the poor of Jerusalem. Yet where is the space for raising this possible interpretation, in the so-called Recovery?]

Also, Paul writes that there is no longer female or male, slave or free, Jew or Greek, but all are one in Christ. With Paul, you either believe into Jesus, or not. Oneness is based on faith, not on any other criteria, external or internal. Yet these groups that want Felix Manolo or Witness Lee or someone to be the Final Prophet, create these false dichotomies. If you are in agreement on the position of the supposed Messenger of God, you are in, you are one of Us. If you don't get the vision of the primacy of Brother X, then you are out, you are one of Them. This creates a false Us/Them narrative that Paul never wanted. This is the opposite of his "no Jew no Greek" rhetoric.

These groups have more in common with those who think Haile Selassie is incarnated Christ, or ones in the Unification Church, who think the same of Sun Myung Moon, than with Lutherans, Baptists or Congregationalists, or any other Protestants. These pseudo-Christian personality cults use the Protestant lineage as a recruiting basis, but once committed, new members find that it's not Protestant or really even Christian at all.

But by then, they're convinced by the incessant narrative that everyone else is doomed, nobody else cares about you but the group, there's no other place for you, you are "wrecked and ruined" (Recovery parlance) for anything else, etc etc. It gets weirder and weirder, less and less Biblical, yet you stay. The constant Us/Them rhetoric cuts off avenues of escape.

**the "economy of God" idea is a sidebar, but shows how only allowing one person to interpret the Bible cuts us off from our God-given gift of thinking for ourselves. The supposed revelation of the supposed oracle of God shuts us off from the recovered Protestant tenet of every person being able to read the Bible for themselves, and discern its meaning.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

In my last few posts, we saw how this has been played out multiple times in the post-Protestant world: new religious groups which say they're Christian, and seem to have a strong interest in the Bible and its story of God's redemption in Jesus Christ. Yet their insistence that one individual's interpretation is the penultimate word, at the expense of everyone else's, creates a very non-Christian environment, and the church becomes a personality cult, a self-contained, self-referential pseudo-Christian world that shuts off the outside and gets stranger and stranger as the decades pass.

I completely agree with this. Digging deeper into the NT record, Apostle Paul never become anything like the MOTA, the oracle, the pope, etc.

Yes, he rebuked Peter in Antioch for his hypocrisy, yet he also went to Jerusalem to determine whether whether he had run in vain. (Gal 2.2) Yes, he did receive revelations as the other Apostles, but that thorn in his side kept him from being lifted up. (2 Cor. 12.7) Yes, Paul spoke regularly to the churches, but he was with the saints night and day in tears and all humility, (Acts 20.18-20) and not as one who loved to use the bully pulpit to "put others in their place," and so paranoid of his position as to prevent others from also having a ministry. Yes, he received offerings from the saints, taking forethought for all things honorable in the sight of men, yet not as others we know of who peddled the word of God for base gain, filthy lucre, or payment of his own business debts.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Digging deeper into the NT record, Apostle Paul never become anything like the MOTA, the oracle, the pope, etc.

For me, the definitive NT moment of Paul v/v the original apostles is in his account in Galatians. There, Paul is recognized as having responsibility for outreach to the Gentile.

Galatians 2:6 As for those who were held in high esteem—whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not show favoritism—they added nothing to my message. 7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised. 10 All they asked was that we should continue to remember the poor, the very thing I had been eager to do all along.

Here, Paul sets up his apostleship, and circumscribes it as one of outreach. By his own writing, he's not anything to be described as MOTA. Later, he returned from his outreach mission on Pentecost, bringing alms for his nation (Acts 24:17; cf Gal 2:10). Peter, by his speech in Acts 2 on a previous Pentecost, was "apostle to the circumcised", proclaiming the Good News (gospel) to the Jewish race, many who were living abroad.

To me that's the vision of the age: the resurrection of Jesus. In the narratives of Witness Lee and Lee Man-Hee and other self-styled prophets and apostles, the vision is typically centered on themselves, and their own mountain-top experiences, not the resurrection of Jesus. Oneness in their groups subsequently depends upon the degree of submission to their vision and their purpose. All of this is quite contrary to the gospel preached by Peter and Paul.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/06/asia/...hnk/index.html

One key for my understanding the spirit behind the Watchman Nee/Witness Lee phenomena is that they're not unique, but are found among a variety of similar ones, in which charismatic post-Protestant leaders created sects which are arguably not Christian at all. The groups take great pains to appear Christian, because this gives them the patina of legitimacy, and a solid recruiting base.

But when you get into the actual phenomena themselves, they're antagonistic to the gospel preached by Peter and Paul. "Love one another" becomes "obey without question". The incessant Us/Them narrative alienates and isolates group members from family and other Christians. The Bible is a prop in their passion play: heavily used when convenient, and then discarded, ignored, or contravened when unhelpful to their vision of primacy.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

"The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."~Ron Kangas

"Since John, according to the will of Jesus, directly sees and hears the explanation of everything recorded in Revelation, John's testimony is the only testimony regarding Revelation that is true"(p. 26)

"Apart from Jesus, John is the only other one who ascends into and descends from heaven to testify about what he sees and hears. 'What must happen after these things' refers to all the events John sees in the spiritual kingdom of heaven. In other words, John sees all the events described in Revelation 4-22, including when the spiritual throne of God described in Revelation 4 returns to unite with God's people in the physical world... a pastor like Apostle John testifies about what he hears in the spiritual heaven, just as Jesus did at the time of his First Coming." (p. 97)

"What does it mean for John to eat the open book? It means he completely understands the content and writes it on his heart. When New John eats God's book, he becomes a walking Bible." (p. 220)

"Just as Jesus testified about the fulfillment of the Old Testament, the New John testifies about the fulfilment of the New Testament. The angel Jesus sends from the spiritual world for the churches reveals all the events in the book of Revelation to the new John. This pastor becomes the messenger of Jesus and testifies on Jesus' behalf according to what he has seen and heard." (p. 561)

"Which pastor should believers follow? Should we follow a general pastor who learns the Bible incompletely from a conventional theological seminary, who is ordained by men, and who becomes a pastor capable of preaching only within his own denomination? Instead, should we not follow the true promised pastor anointed directly by Jesus himself (Rev 1:17-19), the pastor who sees God's kingdom, his spiritual kingdom (Rev 4), the pastor who receives and eats the open book (Rev 10), and the pastor to whom an angel is sent to show and explain all the events of Revelation (Rev 22)?"

From, The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation by Lee Man-Hee

There are a number of parallels, here, to the Watchman Nee/Witness Lee phenomena. As I said in post #86, the post-Lutheran world allows for individual interpretation of Scripture, which in some extreme cases will then include those who say they're the New Paul (Witness Lee and promoters), or the New John (Lee Man-Hee et al). All these so-called revelations are angling towards some variant of "I'm the greatest living disciple of Jesus", which implies that all believers should be discipled to that new MOTA. But this idea of having a MOTA violates the spiritual ABCs taught in the gospels!

Mark 9:33,34 Then He came to Capernaum. And when He was in the house He asked them, "What was it you disputed among yourselves on the road?" But they kept silent, for on the road they had disputed among themselves who would be greatest.

This, 'I am greatest since Paul' and 'I am the new Apostle John' is focused on self, not on the kingdom, aka 'the least of these my brothers'. It therefore violates the basic tenets of the gospel. The current disciples of Witness Lee or Lee Man-Hee aren't capable of seeing this, any more than the disciples of Naason Joaquin Garcia can grasp that he isn't the modern day Prophet of God - even though he's in jail for the most heinous of crimes!

Those who get enmeshed into the self-reinforcing system built by the would-be "greatest follower of Jesus" often lose the ability to get external bearings, and subsequently find the way out. But we can warn those who are without, on the college campus and in the shopping mall, that when they're approached by disciples of these supposedly Great Men, that the spirit they're seeing is not of freedom but subjection.

Originally Posted by Ohio

If WN was actually the "legitimate" successor of John Darby, then why doesn't any of these Exclusive Brethren know about this? How can Nee and Lee be MOTA's when we learned all about MOTA's from these Brethren?

From one of their websites: "Bruce D. Hales is the current 'Beloved Leader', the 'Man of God', the 'Elect Vessel', the 'Minister of the Lord in the Recovery', the 'CEO' who 'cannot fail' and has absolute ... " Notice how similar the jargon is.

Like I said, this MOTA thing is spelled S-C-A-M.

Jesus said, "let no one deceive you."

What's so fascinating about these related phenomena is that when you are without, you can see clearly that it's a self-oriented scam and fraud. The gap between the claims and reality is so glaring. But once you are in, and agree to be 'trained' or 'discipled', and shut off outside sources, there's no method of orientation, or self-correction. The only available path is that from the mind of the self-proclaimed MOTA, a room full of mirrors. Once the multimedia web sites and international outreach and campus teams and training centres are established, there's no need for external sources. Everything has either been subsumed by the Vision of God's Oracle, or is negated and rejected. So these strange little religious worlds are built up, these little Kingdoms of Self, that look absurd to everyone but those who are within them.

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

That is one of the biggest loads of bovine scat that I have ever came across! Maybe some studying of real history outside the Witness and Watchman should be ordered for this individual, but highly unlikely to happen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

That is one of the biggest loads of bovine scat that I have ever came across! Maybe some studying of real history outside the Witness and Watchman should be ordered for this individual, but highly unlikely to happen.

Anyone remotely associated with LSM knows how WL and Blended associates are simply “peddling the Word of God” for base gain, i.e. their vast real estate holdings. Neither Jesus Christ nor any of the Apostles ever owned a home.

And worse, they have a long history of violating the 9th Commandment by “bearing false witness” against many of their former colleagues like John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, Titus Chu, John So, etc. (This list is extremely long.)

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

Within the context of 1 Corinthians 1:13, Is Christ divided? Was Witness Lee crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Witness Lee? Not just from Ron Kangas, but many in the local churches strike me in this fashion making the ministry of Witness Lee an emphasis of division. "If you are not here for Witness Lee and his ministry, then you might as well not be here."
I say let there be no divisions. If a ministry divides, set it aside.

I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. 1 Corinthians 1:10-17

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ron Kangas says Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul!
"I don't claim to have an exhaustive knowledge of church history. But neither am I totally lacking. If someone is sober and thorough, you consider the ministers of the age. Their vision, their ministry and their person. Where do you have to go in church history to find a match? Andrew Murray was outstanding....not a match! Darby? No! Whitfield? No! Wesley? No! Calvin? No! Luther? No! Thomas Aquinas? No? Augustine? No! You have to go all the way back to the apostles. Where we are in the Lord's Recovery is this: The Recovery has reached the stage of the full recovery of the ministry, the vision given to the apostles. I'm not exalting anyone, it's just the fact! Darby did not have Brother Nee's constitution. Luther didn't have Brother Lee's constitution. The Lord needed a certain kind of person to carry out a particular kind of ministry under the vision of the age, so that the desire of God's heart for this age will actually be carried out."

If this statement wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The magnitude of the gravity of this statement is such that I believe it is time to warn all current members of the Local Church of Witness Lee to seriously consider leaving the movement, and find a healthy place to worship the Lord and fellowship with genuine believers. I would especially encourage all young people and new believers to take steps to extract themselves as soon as possible. With Ron Kangas at the helm, and others just like him there in Anaheim, things are likely to get a lot worse. Without true repentance, personality cults like the Local Church tend to get worse over time. May God have mercy.
-

Going back to the beginning of this thread, where is Ron Kangas saying Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since the apostle Paul?
I believe Ron or any LC brother at one time did compare Witness Lee to apostle Paul. It is a fact I heard with my own ears going back to the early 1980's. It was from a LC brother I first heard the comparison.
In current time, how many believe Witness Lee is the greatest apostle since Paul? Would they also agree Witness Lee is the oracle of God as he claimed to be?
I would say he was neither an oracle nor an apostle, but just a gifted brother as many from his era.

Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. Revelation 2:5