The Universal Government of God - Ron Kangas

[Indiana]

I have received a video from a recent training in the Philippines that got my attention immediately to see what speaker Ron Kangas would have to say on The Universal Government of God.

I speak in response to what Ron had to say - for he has again spoken about me - and admits he went to S. America in 2008 to deal with a "certain destructive brother," a reference to me.

To those who have been acquainted with his long string of authoritarian behavior in the churches, there is a ready understanding of why I am compelled to respond, and once again correct his inaccuracies and offer the following link to
LSM's destructive past and cover-ups
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...60&postcount=1

RK continues to try to establish his concept of
The Universal Government of God
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9gJta6G6Qc

[TLFisher]

Listening to Ron speaking, you could say "RK continues to try to establish his concept of" grace. Abstract, impersonal, and lacking any subjectivity.
In a real subjective experience of grace, there is warmness to ones who had left.
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[Freedom]

Given the way that Ron speaks, it seems that he thinks that he himself is God's government. Early on in the recording, Ron says "I'm not aiming my words at anyone." Then at the end, he mentions what he spoke in South America. It just goes to show just how self-serving these types of messages really are.
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[Freedom]

The LC gets a lot of things wrong with their concept of what God's government is. When it is convenient for them to do so, they will claim that a person/situation is out of their control and it God will deal with it. By contrast, they will also speak about God's government as a way to defend their actions when they feel the need to take action against others, such as with those they deem to be "negative", "opposers", etc.

In the recording Ron speaks about leaders/elders who have hurt those they are leading. This is one of those issues where it is convenient for him to take the stance that it is all under "God's control" and that it will be dealt or work itself out somehow. He then says that when such leaders get dealt with by God they will be stronger spiritually. What is missing from this equation? Any regard for those who have been hurt.

The LC has such a tragic history of abuses that have been covered up. Among all those who have been hurt directly or indirectly through such abuses, it became necessary at one point or another to draw the line with the LC. The LC disregards such history as irrelevant, and also disregards the continued abuses, claiming that it is all allowed to happen under God's government. This is why the cycle continues.

[Indiana]

In my attempts to contact Ron Kangas, he has not responded to have communication with me directly. In his current speaking about God's government, he ends his talk by referring to me as "a destructive person," one who violates God's government.

www.IntheWakeoftheNewWay.com


Ron Kangas does not know as he ought to know. He just talks, and talks....

He talks about people. As if he has no conscience about what he is saying....

And, this is the problem with him and his counterparts. Under their otherwise healthy form of teaching on church government, they include a diabolical element that corrupts, requiring of them to suppress their conscience about things regarding their hidden history. Their practice of denying the truth of turmoil and division, etc., has taken its toll on "our" brothers and on their collective conscience. And the fruit? Manifestly, is not good.

Whether unwittingly or not, the current leadership has come under a rule of authority that has its roots in the beginning years in Shanghai, and has emerged as the "covering of Noah" doctrine "to see, hear, and speak no evil" of a deputy authority of God. This involves most conspicuously the covering up of sins and failures among the leaders, past and present, especially the two designated as a "minister of the age". They are treated more like gods and not men who can err, commit and confess sins, be covered properly and forgiven that transparency and love both would prevail in the Body.

So the misguided leaders and saints do not mess with what is written and been accepted in the churches as truth. To "our" leaders whatever their mentor before them has said is truth, and his version of the official history is not even examined by them, and all blame is "DUTIFULLY" displaced onto others. This is where Ron Kangas turns aside and errs greatly in his supposed representation of God and His government.

His characterization of me has gone out falsely - as in Ecuador, so now also in the Philippines. In both places and (and in others that I don't know about) he missteps.

In Ecuador and South America his word about me was spread, damaging my name and person. In the Philippines he didn't mention my name publicly on the tape, but dozens or hundreds know who he was talking about. So, this was very foolish of him. And, he speaks about those with power in the church damaging others, and seems totally detached from what his international platform does to me and others he carelessly and unfairly condemns.

www.LeadersoftheLordsrecovery.us

[Curious]

'I want to be like God!!'

Hot tip from the leaders of the Lord 's Recovery: its easy to be like God, just pretend you ARE Him. Attribute to yourself all the privileges authority and power that come with being God, and voila, you will be like God, (at least in your own eyes!!)

Then you never have to review your own behavior, as God never has to do that!! That's just for lowly sinners to do!! Leave that messy uncomfortable confusion behind you, just let go and BECOME Him! And everything will be easy and pleasant for you!

(just do it somewhere else, cause we are the God's of this place!)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC gets a lot of things wrong with their concept of what God's government is. When it is convenient for them to do so, they will claim that a person/situation is out of their control and it God will deal with it. By contrast, they will also speak about God's government as a way to defend their actions when they feel the need to take action against others, such as with those they deem to be "negative", "opposers", etc.

In the recording Ron speaks about leaders/elders who have hurt those they are leading. This is one of those issues where it is convenient for him to take the stance that it is all under "God's control" and that it will be dealt or work itself out somehow. He then says that when such leaders get dealt with by God they will be stronger spiritually. What is missing from this equation? Any regard for those who have been hurt.

I'd share a few ideas on my concepts of God's government. And yes they're concepts, just like RK and the LC have concepts. No more or less - concepts are examined, pruned, modified. They're not immutable truths to be received uncritically.

My concept of God's government is tied to obedience. "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as in heaven". We the disobedient are therefore disqualified to say much on God's government. "If you, being evil, can give good gifts to your children..." (Matt 7:11; Luke 11:13).

But we see in scripture Jesus, the Obedient Lamb of God, who is King of kings and Lord of Lords. God expresses His will through the scripture, the inspired Word of God, which Word is now Personified in the Son. We who receive this Son, by confessing his name and receiving his Holy Spirit, are now qualified to begin to participate in God's government. God loved us so much, that He sent His Son, and brought us back home. The obedience of Jesus is proved by God's raising him from the dead and giving him glory. This is why our faith opens the door. This is why our faith is imputed righteousness. It is in his obedience, not ours.

Then, consider Watchman Nee - he was trained and led by women, who were not "under the covering" of male leadership. And he was disobedient to them! Margaret Barber told him not to read Jessie Penn-Lewis, but he read "War on the Saints" and then cribbed it for his book "Spiritual Man". (The publisher's preface to the Second Edition admits this, calling the uncredited citations an oriental approval). Then, Miss Barber told him to obey Leland Wang, his elder, but eventually WN broke with Wang and took over the Shanghai Christian Assembly, whose hall Wang had purchased (Wang went on to be a preacher of renown, called "The Billy Graham of China").

So WN was at least doubly or perhaps even trebly disobedient to God's government.

Disclaimers: I'm also partly disobedient. Perhaps more than WN, who knows? Ye I say that there's a "rule" in the universe, and we all are held to it, as Jesus was. Obedience. There's no "special servant" who can make up their own rules as they go, and sidestep the divine law and the divine government. And I don't say that women should be subservient - they can receive light. They can teach. But the LC says women can't teach, but bases its own revelation on women's teaching! How is this system legitimate? Women were used (Ruth Lee, Peace Wang et al) to gain power, then were "sent down". Look at Jane Anderson: her 'crime' was to teach, encourage, console, exhort other Christians. In the LC this was deemed 'factious' and 'drawing others' and 'forming parties', yet all of these things WN and WL had done before her, and were doing. Why was she wrong? Why, she was a woman! For shame! And yet they laud other women as instrumental, pioneers of recovery.

The LC's "government of God" is set on sinking sand, and its problems, both current and past, all stem from this. Jesus alone, as Christ and Son of God, is the rock. Our faith is in him, not some 'recovered truth' or 'delegated authority'. Anyone who gives themselves to these "powers and authorities" (cf Eph 1:21, 6:12) will suffer commensurably.

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC has such a tragic history of abuses that have been covered up. Among all those who have been hurt directly or indirectly through such abuses, it became necessary at one point or another to draw the line with the LC. The LC disregards such history as irrelevant, and also disregards the continued abuses, claiming that it is all allowed to happen under God's government. This is why the cycle continues.

The cycle continues: Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, Steve Isitt, Jo and Greg Casteel.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Curious

The question of forgiving does not even enter Ron Kangas' thinking, it appears he is completely oblivious to the cross of Jesus Christ and what His character and example to humanity communicate to us.

"Oblivious to the cross of Jesus Christ". I don't think the magnitude of this quip could possibly be overstated, even by a piteous hack like me (but since I can't help myself, I'll take a run at it anyway!)

Sorry my brother Ron if it seems like you are being picked on here, but you keep sticking your neck out in recent times, making yourself such an easy target, even for horrible shots like me. But not all of us are horrible shots - - witness this post by our forum member Curious. Obviously, we all know that you are not unfamiliar with the term "the cross of Jesus Christ", yet it seems that you have little to no appreciation for the sentiments, feelings and concerns of those "for whom Christ died". God forbid that any Christian brother be called an enemy to the cross of Christ, yet I must tell you that many of the words that you have been publicly speaking can rightly be classified as being an enemy to the cross of Christ. Keep in mind brother Ron, just as the Lord Jesus was not telling Peter that he was literally Satan (Witness Lee's false teachings notwithstanding), neither is anyone here telling you that you are literally an enemy to the cross of Christ. Yet just like Peter, who in his ignorance proclaimed "this shall never happen to you!", and thus became a temporal enemy of the cross, so you too, through your loose and careless speaking, have insulted those for whom Christ died. You should be ashamed of yourself.
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[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

My concept of God's government is tied to obedience. "Your kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as in heaven". We the disobedient are therefore disqualified to say much on God's government. "If you, being evil, can give good gifts to your children..." (Matt 7:11; Luke 11:13).

The LC's "government of God" is set on sinking sand, and its problems, both current and past, all stem from this. Jesus alone, as Christ and Son of God, is the rock. Our faith is in him, not some 'recovered truth' or 'delegated authority'. Anyone who gives themselves to these "powers and authorities" (cf Eph 1:21, 6:12) will suffer commensurably.

The cycle continues: Jane Anderson, John Ingalls, Steve Isitt, Jo and Greg Casteel.

The LC system doesn't make the distinction between God and man. Those in the lead see the Godhead linked to their own leading. To be in opposition to them is considered as being in opposition to God.
There have been brothers maintaining to have been obedient to God, but labeled as rebellious by man. well yes they would be rebellious to the LC system. No one can serve two masters. Many striving to be accepted in the local churches undoubtedly were man-fearing and not God-fearing as I ought to have been.

The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by doggonit

The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!

Doggonit, Point well taken.

Really no different from LC ancestors -- the Exclusive British Brethren -- who also demanded for generations that George Muller be soundly condemned for his actions standing up to their grandpa MOTA -- J N Darby -- during his faux quarantine of B W Newton of Plymouth.

But let's not also forget the Divine response. It has been said that our Heavenly Father perhaps responded with more direct and verifiable answers to Muller's prayers than any servant of God in church history.

If God is for us, who can be against us?

[Indiana]

Ron Kangas has spoken about me erroneously at least three times beginning in Ecuador, then in the Philippines in January, and now in Phoenix early this month, March. He has never talked to me. And speaks inaccurately about me. I speak accurately about him before God and man and ask him for his response. He doesn't respond, because he deals only with the well-guarded fictional accounts of our church history, so he dummies up with nothing to say. And his counterparts do the same and treat truth as if it were their enemy.
See www.leadersofthelordsrecovery.us

A Time of Turmoil and the Defaming of a Leader: Examining Ron Kangas' Slanted and Superficial Depiction of John Ingalls (Coming Back to the Vision at the Beginning of the Lord's Recovery) (Volume 3): Isitt, Stephen: 9781505640137: Amazon.com: Books
https://www.amazon.com/Time-Turmoil-.../dp/150564013X

Phoenix March 2020 - Phoenix Blending Conference
http://churchinphoenix.org/conf/2020/index.html (see message one)

START at 1:10:12 - 1 hour ten minutes, 12 seconds
http://churchinphoenix.org/conf/2020...20_MSG1_EN.mp3

RK SAYS:
“Let me just tell you this, and this is not false humility, this is just frankness. The Lord knows, I am not a simple case. If I can learn a certain spiritual lesson any believer can learn, and probably faster."

“So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person. And, for some reason he put it online to make it known to the world and then he filed a lawsuit against me, [for] slandering him. As soon as I heard this, I had no fear. I had no anger, I had no anxiety and I just said, Lord I give this to you."

“And then, I was traveling with a brother who served with DCP, and once they found out about it, they decided, okay we’ll have to do something, but I wasn't relying on what man would do, and eventually there was another coworker involved and they went to the judge. And, “the judge said 'this is ridiculous' and threw it away. This is spoken to the Christian gathering in Ambato, and you’re the one who wanted to put the thing online. He must have some motive behind it that he wants me to do.”

Regarding Greg and Jo Casteel
"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life."

"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."

My Responses
My "spewing out attacks" was Ron's way of reacting to well-documented sources of truth-speaking that featured the righteous accounts of formerly beloved leaders.
https://www.amazon.com/Deviating-Pat.../dp/1505461170

Sole Purpose for Lawsuit
From January 2001 to January 2007 I had addressed leaders. And when they did not respond, I approached them in a different way, through the U. S. government. My sole purpose for doing so was to wake them up!

"Someone Violated Confidentiality act"
Ron, The message was taped officially at an ITERO CONFERENCE, to be heard elsewhere. The person who informed me wasn't even in the conference of leaders in Ambato and he did not receive a link from someone reporting to him what you said.

"For some reason he put the tape online"
The reason was to expose you and your supposed "confidential speaking" which included your words about me being a "man of death" and "one of the most evil speakers on the internet". And, "for some reason", you didnt return my two phone calls or respond to my letter to explain to me your public charges against me. You have yet to support your damaging claims.

So DCP went to the judge
Nothing you have said in Phoenix has any merit whatsoever and is a mini repeat of your colossal mistakes and damage done in your Ambato appearance. You spoke carelessly too in the Philippines, and now you tell of of your interaction with DCP. What are we to believe from that interaction? Both of you live to protect and cover up what you should be judging.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Greg and Jo Casteel

"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life.

Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands”. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."

Where and when was this spoken?

[UntoHim]

Apparently it was at the "2020 Phoenix Blending Conference". Please see post #11 (edited for clarity)
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[Freedom]

Originally Posted by RonKangas

"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."

Ron may not realize it, but it can be guaranteed that there are current LC members who see these types of situations occur and think to themselves "this situation could have been handled better." Especially in light of such a tragic situation, Ron should have expected many more emails than he received.

Whenever situations occur where there was the potential for a different outcome, that should be the opportunity for those like Ron to stop and reflect. Unfortunately, some of these men have to much pride to do anything besides double down on their positions. Eventually it's going to come back to bite them.

[Curious]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Words of Ron Kangas: "So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person. And, for some reason he put it online to make it known to the world and then he filed a lawsuit against me, [for] slandering him. As soon as I heard this, I had no fear. I had no anger, I had no anxiety and I just said, Lord I give this to you."

Regarding Greg and Jo Casteel
"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life."

"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter) Now, I was not suppressing my feelings, I was not gritting my teeth. I was not trying to be a hero. it was effortless, because I'm learning slowly, 'let Christ live again' the life He lives under the government of God, the Lord kept committing all His insults and injuries to Him who judges righteously in His government, the righteous God to whom He submitted Himself."

I am going to share a quote from a Christian leader out here in ‘poor degraded Christianity’ in contrast to the way RK has described his response to: himself and his ministry being called into question on a public forum, as documented above.

Found in the book ‘The Most Powerful Prayer On Earth’ by Peter Horrobin.
The prayer referred to in the title of this book is actually Jesus’ last prayer as he was dying on the cross where he said, ‘Forgive them father, for they do not know what they are doing’. [Luke 23:34]

Beginning on Page 62, on the subject of gaining freedom from those who would steal a person’s reputation through the malicious spreading of lies and slander, the author writes:

‘Many years ago certain people said and wrote totally untrue words about me and the ministry I am involved in. Even today I come across people whose first instinct is to have nothing to do with us because of the words that were lodged in their memories.

‘The laws of most countries have provisions to protect the good name of individuals from such slander and libel. Not only is it a serious legal offense to steal a man’s good name, but it is also a serious offense before God [Exod. 20:16; Prov. 19.5; Matt 15:19-20]

‘However, the fact that what they are doing is wrong does not give me an excuse to harbor bitterness in my own heart against such thieves! By doing so I would only make it harder for people to find out the truth and change their opinion. Each time I come across someone who has been negatively affected by the words people have said or written is a fresh opportunity to forgive them and pray the most powerful prayer on earth! Ultimately the truth will be revealed, and God has to be the vindicator of our reputation……

‘People stole [Jesus] reputation. They did him a terrible disservice. [referring to all those responsible for bringing him to the cross]. But ‘Father, forgive them’ was ultimately all that Jesus said. He could only have prayed this prayer to God if his own heart was forgiving towards those who had hurt him….but….all of the accusations against Jesus were demonstrated to be untrue on resurrection morning!’

To forgive in this way reflects God’s character directly. This 'poor degraded Christian' out there in RK's 'spiritual darkness' has reflected God’s character in his handling of those ‘attackers and opposers’ that he encounters, (though he fails to give them such negative labels!) RK mentions the ground opening up and swallowing his ‘opposers’, and laughs about it. His only testimony is to his own seared conscience, as noted already. Peter Horrobin and Jesus pray to forgive, citing deception and ignorance, and not 'evil' in those at odds with them. The contrast is stark enough, I don’t think I need to labour it, I know which camp I would be found in….!

My final thought is, maybe the one commentator has nothing to hide, and is truly not guilty of the words spread around, and has a commitment to grace rather than trying to win the toss. While the other does have something to hide, so keeps returning to the subject even many years later, as he will never be at inner peace on the matter till he resolves it in God’s way. The question of forgiving does not even enter RK's thinking, it appears he is completely oblivious to the cross of Jesus Christ and what His character and example to humanity communicate to us. In contrast, Peter Horrobin does not name those who spoke against him, a further indication that he is just mentioning a principle, not rehashing an unresolved grievance.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Curious

To forgive in this way reflects God’s character directly. This 'poor degraded Christian' out there in RK's 'spiritual darkness' has reflected God’s character in his handling of those ‘attackers and opposers’ that he encounters, (though he fails to give them such negative labels!) RK mentions the ground opening up and swallowing his ‘opposers’, and laughs about it. His only testimony is to his own seared conscience, as noted already. Peter Horrobin and Jesus pray to forgive, citing deception and ignorance, and not 'evil' in those at odds with them. The contrast is stark enough, I don’t think I need to labour it, I know which camp I would be found in….!

This is a good point. I've heard some of the different things things that Ron has said and it seems that he will frequently make statements to imply that he is just going to let God deal with the situation. Except that he doesn't actually do that. He keeps coming back to some issues again and again to where it is obvious that he is obsessed with it, even though he denies it.

[Ohio]

Ron Kangas SAYS:

“So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person. And, for some reason he put it online to make it known to the world and then he filed a lawsuit against me, [for] slandering him. As soon as I heard this, I had no fear. I had no anger, I had no anxiety and I just said, Lord I give this to you."

I find these comments so "LSM-like" yet when read soberly and objectively, they are so absurd and obnoxious. What is Kangas thinking, in this age of communication and surveillance, when he gets upset that his statements got back to Steve Isitt? Did he never read the verse about everything "shouted from the roof tops?" What was he thinking?

So, Ron Kangas had "no fear?" Could it be the reason is that LSM has storehouses of cash? Sorry Ron, but your attitude displays no semblance of faith or trust in God. You are a bully. You attack the little ones. You have a long history of slandering your brothers in Christ -- those who seek righteousness and speak their conscience. Something those at LSM know nothing about.

Regarding Greg and Jo Casteel
"Then, after the training in July, maybe you remember there were some strong words spoken concerning rebellion and some serious words spoken about misrepresenting God, And about 5 or 6 weeks later the husband of the one who was being the most vociferous, speaking the most, every kind of evil, negative thing, took his life."

"Then I received emails accusing me of his death and was told, 'you have blood on your hands'. I can’t mention the vocabulary used. Again, didn't bother me, no fear, no anxiety, no need to fight back. I give this to you, Father God. This attack is against You. Then I read again in Numbers 16, after the ground opened up the sons of Korah and his followers went down to Sheol and the fire came down and 250 died. The next day all the people blamed Moses and Aaron for killing them. So we're in good company. (Laughter)

Ron, you have no need to fight back? Seriously? Greg Casteel is dead. A family is destroyed. Why? The sister was obligated by law to report criminal actions. Mr. Kangas, it is rare to find a leader so callous as you. What happened to you? Have you no empathy? For many years this couple was extremely devoted to your ministry. There was no guile in them. Then they learned about numerous abuses by LC leaders. How could they be silent? Their heart and the Bible demanded that they speak up.

Mr. Kangas, it grieves me that you have forsaken the plain words of the Lord Jesus and His apostles in order to vindicate your judgments, looking for some O.T. justifications for your behavior. What kind of minister would claim to be today's Moses? Jesus Christ Himself is today's Moses! Not you! And when the Lord sends prophets to you, calling for sober action and response, you would kill them as the prophets of old.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

IAnd when the Lord sends prophets to you, calling for sober action and response, you would kill them as the prophets of old.

The Casteel's were prophets. So was John Ingalls. Steve Isitt. All the rest. Many here.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

RK SAYS:
“So some years ago, in 2008, I went to the Ecuador in South America and I had a meeting with the leading brothers from various churches and I warned them of a very negative person spewing out all kinds of attacks. I gave the name, so they knew who he was. Then I found out that someone in that meeting violated confidentiality, recorded what I spoke, and sent it to this person.."

This is factually incorrect. The brother doing the recording did not sent it. He recorded the messages on another brothers server. Perhaps after the fact decided it is best to remove these messages off the server. By then it had been too late. Message began to circulate.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Terry

This is factually incorrect. The brother doing the recording did not sent it. He recorded the messages on another brothers server. Perhaps after the fact decided it is best to remove these messages off the server. By then it had been too late. Message began to circulate.

Yes Terry, and just to clarify this matter a little more for everyone, here is some background:

In 2007 a dear brother in South America had asked to use some of the storage space on a server that I was paying the bill for. This was fine with me since it was being under-utilized (I only had a few positive LC related websites back then). So I supplied that brother with the login information and left it at that. I trusted him fully and continued to keep the account paid up.

Some time later on, I began to look through files on my server and discovered a series of messages given by Ron Kangas in Ecuador. Because, at that time, I still had a considerable degree of respect for Ron's teaching gift, I began to listen intently to those messages. But when I got to the recording of that leaders fellowship, I was horrified to hear Ron slandering Steve Isitt by name! This is the moment when I made direct contact with Steve Isitt to let him know what I had discovered on "my" server. Steve Isitt was likewise very shocked because he had no idea this defamation had taken place.

At this point, due to this recording being evidence of lawless behaviour on the part of Ron Kangas, I felt that before God I was supposed to regain exclusive control over the server - so I changed the login without even notifying the dear brother I had formerly trusted with access.

Digging a little deeper on that server, I discovered there was an active Spanish language website where ALL of those Ambato Ecuador messages were publicly made available on the internet. These messages were even highly recommended for everyone's edification by the brothers in Cali Columbia! So this claim currently being made by Ron Kangas about someone violating confidentiality by making an unauthorized recording of his lawless speaking makes no sense at all.

That South American brother did try to contact me later on after I removed his access to the server, but there was no mention in his communications of an unauthorized audio recording needing to be taken down. BTW: I credit Ron Kangas with the destruction of my positive relationship with that brother in South America. Ron has way more than just Greg Casteel’s blood on his hands.

It’s possible that Ron may only be mentioning (spinning) this matter now because of the way I’ve relentlessly pressed the issue at this channel: https://youtu.be/ocr-FKHycWk (please check out the video description where I’ve been transparent about this whole matter)

Below is the original audio file of Ron Kangas' defaming of Steve Isitt. The time-stamp proves that it has been un-tampered with ever since being placed there by my South American friend, over 12 years ago:

comunion.para.hnos.r..> 2008-02-02 07:33 14M

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by doggonit

The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!

As much as RK had been speaking about grace in the message, it is apparent speaking about grace and living out grace are not the same.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by doggonit

The spite and rancor Kangas speaks with is astounding. Dude, John Ingalls left your little personality cult over 30 years ago and is now passed away and with the Lord. Give it a rest. Really Ron, you should consider seeing a psych doc or something to take care of your deep seated anger issues. You seem to forget, John Ingalls was your deputy authority (or deputy deputy authority under brother Lee) and YOU rebelled against him! Repent! Don't you know that even if the deputy authority is wrong he is right!

In life and in death grace could not be given by Ron or by many co-workers towards John Ingalls. I wonder how many actively meeting in the local churches continue believing this narrative?
In Christianity, this is not so. There is grace.

[ExLCMillennial]

This e-book from the Gospel Bookroom of the Philippines, Inc. is published as a compilation of the eight messages given by brothers Ron Kangas, Albert Lim, and Mark Raabe during the Perfecting Training for Elders and Responsible Ones held January 17-19, 2020, in Malabon City, Philippines. The training was attended by about one thousand five hundred elders and responsible ones across the Philippines.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by ExLCMillennial

This e-book from the Gospel Bookroom of the Philippines, Inc. is published as a compilation of the eight messages given by brothers Ron Kangas, Albert Lim, and Mark Raabe during the Perfecting Training for Elders and Responsible Ones held January 17-19, 2020, in Malabon City, Philippines. The training was attended by about one thousand five hundred elders and responsible ones across the Philippines.

Wow, on page 27 of that book Albert Lim shares a story of someone who "rebelled against brother Lee" who's wife very quickly after got cancer and died, and who then himself died 30 days later.

It's been a while since I've heard such an overt threat of death like that.

It's interesting, with their logic, all atheists (ultimate rebelling against God) should have died of heart attacks a long time ago.

Here's the quote referenced by Trapped:
"At that time, I had one relative who was older than my dad, and he was the one who brought my dad to the Lord. He was also the one who brought my dad into the recovery. He was also the one who brought Brother Lee into this country in the first place. But one day, he was affected and he rebelled against Brother Lee and the recovery. Shortly after that rebellion, something happened to this relative of ours and to his family. His wife got sick and died of cancer. Her cancer was not hidden in her body but it was a growth out of her throat. On the same day that we brought her to the cemetery for burial, her husband, the rebellious one, felt something wrong with his abdomen. When we heard about this, we brought him to the hospital. He never left that hospital. Within thirty days, he also went to be with the Lord. When he was still in the hospital, he asked my mother for some fellowship. He told my mother, “Please pray for me, please pray for me. I realize that I have sinned against God. I should never have rebelled against Brother Lee. So please pray.” And he said, “If the Lord would be willing to heal me, I will bring my whole family back into the Lord’s recovery.” I was hopeful that with such a prayer, maybe the Lord would heal him, but the Lord did not."

Notice how Albert Lim equates sinning against God with having "rebelled against Brother Lee". Nothing says WE ARE A CULT! like one of the lead minions reminding everyone that if you even think about looking at our dear leader cross-eyed God is going to strike you dead! And if you're really negative to the grand poobah God will strike down your spouse too!

Hey big Al I got a story for you. I know of a brother who was super rebellious against the local church cult. Man he was one of the worst of the worst. Now his wife was one of the most dedicated sisters you'll ever find. She went to every meeting. She preached the local church gospel to everyone who would listen. She brought lots of people into the local church cult. This sister was respected as much as any sister in her local church. And do you know what happened big Al? Do you think a piano fell on the rebellious brother? Did he get run over by a bus? Did he get some terrible disease and die a miserable death? No. It was the sister who got cancer and died.

[Trapped]

On page 12 Ron Kangas says "Be humbled under the mighty hand of God-this is our part. Do not worry about others. Do not compare yourself with others. Do not talk to God about others. Do not dream about your future. Right now, right here, the word is "be humbled". In due time, God will exalt you."

Sorry, but "do not talk to God about others?" What are the Psalms then? What are probably 75% of all prayers uttered to God throughout all time? Not only can we not have friends in the church, or outside of the church, not only do we have to "cover" everything to the detriment of the church, now we can't even talk to God about certain things?! I give up.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Doggonit

Notice how Albert Lim equates sinning against God with having "rebelled against Brother Lee". Nothing says WE ARE A CULT! like one of the lead minions reminding everyone that if you even think about looking at our dear leader cross-eyed God is going to strike you dead! And if you're really negative to the grand poobah God will strike down your spouse too!

Hey big Al I got a story for you. I know of a brother who was super rebellious against the local church cult. Man he was one of the worst of the worst. Now his wife was one of the most dedicated sisters you'll ever find. She went to every meeting. She preached the local church gospel to everyone who would listen. She brought lots of people into the local church cult. This sister was respected as much as any sister in her local church. And do you know what happened big Al? Do you think a piano fell on the rebellious brother? Did he get run over by a bus? Did he get some terrible disease and die a miserable death? No. It was the sister who got cancer and died.

Totally - it is a classic "cult" tactic.

One of the faithful co-workers, Francis Ball, was struck by a car and died years ago. I guess he rebelled against Witness Lee too?!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Totally - it is a classic "cult" tactic.

One of the faithful co-workers, Francis Ball, was struck by a car and died years ago. I guess he rebelled against Witness Lee too?!

I heard this stuff for years. So predictable:

• Bad things happen to ex-members -- See how the Lord is judging them!

• Bad things happen to current members -- see how the Enemy attacks us!

I would point you to three of the most distinguished patterns of suffering the Bible has ever presented: Job, Jesus, and Paul. There are long chapters dedicated to their trials, sufferings, misfortunes, etc. Read their stories again. Each of them was soundly condemned by all the so-called "godly and spiritual" men who knew them. Their reputations were destroyed by their contemporaries.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Totally - it is a classic "cult" tactic.

One of the faithful co-workers, Francis Ball, was struck by a car and died years ago. I guess he rebelled against Witness Lee too?!

If I recall that was 2007. Ironically the year prior August 2006, Ransford Ackah died as a result of an auto accident. I was not meeting with the local churches at that time so I don't know if his passing had been spun at all "as rebelling".

[NewManLiving]

But this is all true! Can’t you see??? Witness Lee rebelled against himself and died of Cancer. His two sons, if I remember correctly, also rebelled against their father and are no longer with us. Mrs Kangas #1 must have secretly rebelled against MOTA as well since she succumbed to Cancer. Take heed and repent!!!