Who is the Minister of the Age now?

[Acolyte4236]

So here is a question I have trying to think through the LC's teaching. If Lee (and Nee) were the ministers of the "age" and they are both dead, who is the minister of the age according to the LC NOW?

[Trapped]

LSM/DCP's answer to that question (and their whole explanation of the MOTA concept) is here: https://www.afaithfulword.org/articl...istryMinister/

Some snippets of their answer:

"Actually, if we know the Lord's way, we will realize that once the vision of the age is released, the Lord's interest turns to bringing all of His seekers into the seeing and experience of that vision."

"In these days the Lord desires that all of the saints in His recovery would rise up to enter into the revelation and vision released through Brother Nee and Brother Lee, particularly the high peak truths of the last phase of Brother Lee's ministry, the practice of the God-ordained way, and the organic shepherding for the building up of the Body of Christ. We should not waste our energy and the saints' time promoting this or that one as another "minister of the age." At the end of his ministry Brother Nee expressed his feeling that the Lord desired to turn the age from the age of spiritual giants to the age of the whole Body serving."

"The dissenters' demand that the co-workers identify a present "minister of the age" is misplaced. The real question is whether we have fully entered into the vision that the Lord has already given to us. If not, we should give ourselves"......[to do all the things Lee said]

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

LSM/DCP's answer to that question (and their whole explanation of the MOTA concept) is here: https://www.afaithfulword.org/articl...istryMinister/

Some snippets of their answer:

"Actually, if we know the Lord's way, we will realize that once the vision of the age is released, the Lord's interest turns to bringing all of His seekers into the seeing and experience of that vision."

"In these days the Lord desires that all of the saints in His recovery would rise up to enter into the revelation and vision released through Brother Nee and Brother Lee, particularly the high peak truths of the last phase of Brother Lee's ministry, the practice of the God-ordained way, and the organic shepherding for the building up of the Body of Christ. We should not waste our energy and the saints' time promoting this or that one as another "minister of the age." At the end of his ministry Brother Nee expressed his feeling that the Lord desired to turn the age from the age of spiritual giants to the age of the whole Body serving."

"The dissenters' demand that the co-workers identify a present "minister of the age" is misplaced. The real question is whether we have fully entered into the vision that the Lord has already given to us. If not, we should give ourselves" .....[to do all the things Lee said]

Trapped we all know that this whole line of reasoning is illogical. I call BS on that whole article.

Are not these the final days? If we needed a MOTA during the 20th Century, how much more now?

The Nee quote above said the "age of giants was over." Then Lee said the same thing. Perhaps Darby said the same thing. Had TC become Lee's successor as MOTA, then he would be saying the same thing too.

How long will LC faithful believe the same old lies from their leaders?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Nee quote above said the "age of giants was over." Then Lee said the same thing. Perhaps Darby said the same thing. Had TC become Lee's successor as MOTA, then he would be saying the same thing too.

How long will LC faithful believe the same old lies from their leaders?

I believe that the GLA area and Brasil actually did that: "Nee, Lee, Chu" and "Nee, Lee, Dong" became the new watchwords of the respective flocks. Then, when DYL passed on in South America, the bureaucrats and caretakers there took over Estancia Arvore Da Vida to protect (and live off) the legacy of the "last great man". What rot.

[JJ]

Yes, what Rot.

I went to Witness Lee’s funeral (except for the grave side) and was utterly appalled at how spiritually dead the proceedings seemed to me, even thinking if Witness Lee had been buried already he would have rolled over. But I had come out of nine years of being out of TLR and was relating it to my early local church experience. I had attended a few other TLR sanctioned events during my exile, then again from 2005-2015, and had the same experience again, and again, and again.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Trapped we all know that this whole line of reasoning is illogical. I call BS on that whole article.

Are not these the final days? If we needed a MOTA during the 20th Century, how much more now?

The Nee quote above said the "age of giants was over." Then Lee said the same thing. Perhaps Darby said the same thing. Had TC become Lee's successor as MOTA, then he would be saying the same thing too.

How long will LC faithful believe the same old lies from their leaders?

Oh totally, the whole article is BS.

Acolyte's inquiry was just how does the LC answer the question, so I pointed the way to the LC's answer to the question.

Cal's point in one of his episodes was great, that if the MOTA is to reveal the hidden things, how can anyone say all the hidden things are revealed and there are none left to reveal? The whole point is they are hidden so how would anyone know?

Plus if there was a spiritual age that was over that, ostensibly, was traceable from the OT to the present time, you'd think the Bible would have at least a whisper about it. But curiously, nope. I wonder why

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Cal's point in one of his episodes was great, that if the MOTA is to reveal the hidden things, how can anyone say all the hidden things are revealed and there are none left to reveal? The whole point is they are hidden so how would anyone know?

Right. "All mysteries are solved. All truths are now revealed." So says the one who has stopped seeking, and tries to discourage others. But Jesus said, "Seek, and you will find." How can anyone say they've figured it all out?

Originally Posted by Trapped

If there was a spiritual age that was over that, ostensibly, was traceable from the OT to the present time, you'd think the Bible would have at least a whisper about it. But curiously, nope. I wonder why

It was really a weird moment, one of many, unfortunately. "The age is over, and a new one has begun." No scripture offered. And everyone just sat there and took it, like we always did.

[aron]

Another thing is the circular reasoning behind it, that there's one vision per generation, held solely by the ministry of the age, and its chosen vessel of revelation, aka 'God's oracle'. Says who? Well, God's Oracle says so. But how do you know he is God's Oracle, the MOTA? Why, because he has the vision of the age! Surely anyone can see that!

Then, that chosen vessel of revelation leaves this mortal coil, and the vision of the age is now that there's no more vision. Because the age has turned, you see? That's part of the revelation, the corollary that it ends with the last seer.

It goes: Moses, Samuel, Jesus, Paul, Luther, current MOTA, then nothing. And you can pretty much plug in Haile Selassie, Sun Myung Moon, Brigham Young, Felix Y. Manalo, or any other - the formula is the same.

"I have the vision."
Oh, what's the vision?
"That I have the vision."

The rest is just filler.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

LSM/DCP's answer to that question (and their whole explanation of the MOTA concept) is here: https://www.afaithfulword.org/articl...istryMinister/

Some snippets of their answer:

"Actually, if we know the Lord's way, we will realize that once the vision of the age is released, the Lord's interest turns to bringing all of His seekers into the seeing and experience of that vision."

"In these days the Lord desires that all of the saints in His recovery would rise up to enter into the revelation and vision released through Brother Nee and Brother Lee, particularly the high peak truths of the last phase of Brother Lee's ministry, the practice of the God-ordained way, and the organic shepherding for the building up of the Body of Christ. We should not waste our energy and the saints' time promoting this or that one as another "minister of the age." At the end of his ministry Brother Nee expressed his feeling that the Lord desired to turn the age from the age of spiritual giants to the age of the whole Body serving."

"The dissenters' demand that the co-workers identify a present "minister of the age" is misplaced. The real question is whether we have fully entered into the vision that the Lord has already given to us. If not, we should give ourselves"......[to do all the things Lee said]

I'm interested to see DCP papering over this, and giving it a pseudo-spiritual covering. I was there when Witness Lee passed on. The troops were in shock. It was a grave moment. Our commander was gone. The person at the dais solemnly informed us that the age had turned. "It is no longer the age of spiritual giants - it is the age of small potatoes." That was how it came out. I don't remember the speaker but I suspect it was one of the current blendeds, or my local "leading one" channeling the masters from Anaheim.

We just sat there dully. Everyone was subdued. Essentially we were unable to process this, nobody said, "What scripture does this statement rest on? Where in the Bible does it tell of the age turning thus?" No, critical thinking was verboten.

Later, looking back, I thought about it and realized the implications of this. There is a corollary to the "great man" theory, which is when there's no more "great man" to guide history, it's then the time for the bureaucrats to work. If you look at a lot of the charismatic sects, formed around the personality of the Maximum Leader, once the leader is gone, the yes-men (and women) rally round to keep the cause alive. In this case, the Bible was ignored. Witness Lee was gone, and the age had changed.

Eventually the disconnect became so great that I just left. There was a lot of stuff going on like this. And it was pre-internet, and I knew nothing of Daystar, or Philip Lee as The Office, etc. I just knew that sitting in a circle and reading the same footnotes and waiting for instructions from Anaheim wasn't how I was going to spend my life.

But "the age has turned" - that was an example of the non-scriptural stuff that was regularly getting foisted on the rank-and-file, at the whim of leadership.

On a related note, when we went over the parables of the talents, everyone assured each other that we were all one-talented believers. But if we banded together, we could do great things! In the "great men of history" theory, of course, the so-called spiritual giants were the five-talented ones. Martin Luther, JN Darby, W Nee, W Lee. In between, we supposed, were the two-talented ones - the "Leading Brothers" and "Senior Co-workers" who scurried round the land advising us of the Great Man's wishes.

Now, looking at it from a distance of some years, I suspect that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee weren't five-talented ones with flaws; rather they were one- and two-talented ones who presumed to places they had no right. It was not given them by God but they usurped a place in the flock, raising themselves up. And the results, or fruit, is all too clear.

Not saying there aren't five-talented ones. But let God decide.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Acolyte4236

So here is a question I have trying to think through the LC's teaching. If Lee (and Nee) were the ministers of the "age" and they are both dead, who is the minister of the age according to the LC NOW?

Me - they just don't know it yet . . . (actually, I really think it is bro Ohio)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Me - they just don't know it yet . . . (actually, I really think it is bro Ohio)

Huh? Did you take a trip to Colorado?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh? Did you take a trip to Colorado?

Ha ha - I had to think about that a moment, but yes, Colorado is now quite a "green" state! (for instance, we saw multiple marijuana dispensaries in towns of just a few hundred people)