How do you experience the Cross?

[Sons to Glory!]

I've always struggled a bit with the concept and the application of the cross. I've realized for many years I held a most laborious and religious concept around it, and therefore generally practiced avoidance of the topic. Yet I knew it was something critical to the Christian life and have often prayed to be given light. Recently, I think the Lord has been showing me that I've been making it much more complicated than it should be.

In my morning time today a couple devotionals spoke to me about experiencing the cross. Then later I had a simple "demonstration" via the Anointing.

But before I tell you more about this, I wanted to put it out there for fellowship to see how my realization lines up with others. So what is your understanding of the concept and application of the cross in your life?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I've always struggled a bit with the concept and the application of the cross. I've realized for many years I held a most laborious and religious concept around it, and therefore generally practiced avoidance of the topic. Yet I knew it was something critical to the Christian life and have often prayed to be given light. Recently, I think the Lord has been showing me that I've been making it much more complicated than it should be.

In my morning time today a couple devotionals spoke to me about experiencing the cross. Then later I had a simple "demonstration" via the Anointing.

But before I tell you more about this, I wanted to put it out there for fellowship to see how my realization lines up with others. So what is your understanding of the concept and application of the cross in your life?

StG,

Can you first give scriptural “evidence” that Christians “experience the cross”? Of course, in the New Testament we are frequently told to “take up our cross” which indicates we have a cross to bear. We have sufferings as Christians, but “rain falls on the just and the unjust.” I don’t find verses to support “experience the cross” as something we are commanded to do. We have a cross to bear, take it and follow Him.

Is it possible that your question/concern is grounded in the unique teachings of Witness Lee? Lee often took “descriptions” of events in Scripture and “prescribed” actions as though they were scriptural commands.

When studying the Bible, it is important to determine whether the verse or passage at hand is descriptive or prescriptive. The difference is this: a passage is descriptive if it is simply describing something that happened, while a passage in prescriptive if it is specifically teaching that something should happen. Simply put, is it a description or a command? Is the passage describing something (it happened) or is it prescribing something (it should happen)? The difference is important. When a biblical passage is only describing something but is interpreted as prescribing something, it can lead to errant thinking and behavior..

https://www.gotquestions.org/descrip...scriptive.html

Lee was prone to complicating the simple gospel of Jesus Christ. Lee’s teachings were often so complex that we were dependent on him for interpretation and explanation on how to practice what he preached. (One church, one city for example.) This was a way to control us and make us depend on Lee.

Figuring out the “how to’s” is a real crazy-maker. (How to do “church”?)

Nell

[UntoHim]

Another provocative thread by Sons to Glory! Keep em coming bro!

My response is going to be pretty similar to Nell's great post.

Notice that our Lord said "Pick up your cross". He didn't say "go looking for your cross and then pick it up". There is no need for us to come looking for the cross. Trust me...the cross will come to you. In fact, if you go looking for the cross, and then find something that you think is the cross, trust me...it is probably not the cross. In my experience and observation, anytime we go looking for the cross, and end up picking up something that is not the cross, we end up losing out on the second part of Jesus's stern admonition "and come follow me".

This was one of the main features and emphases in the teachings of Watchman Nee - that we should always be looking around for a cross to pick up. It seems to me that the poor man was always and forever looking around for a cross to pick up. Eventually, the Lord saw fit to give him a cross to pick up all right - and what a cross it was. May God have mercy on all of those who would seek to follow him.
-

[Sons to Glory!]

To reply to what Nell and UTH have posted, it's agreed that we shouldn't go about "looking for my cross." When I was a new believer and first hit the LC, I was given WN's book, "The Release of the Spirit." The preamble to this title was "The breaking of the Outer Man (for the release of the spirit)." This preamble always rubbed me wrong, and I suspect this sense was rooted in the inner Anointing. Over the years I tried several times to pick the book up, but my sense was always basically the same, and I never got through more than a couple chapters before setting it aside again (I recently donated my copy to the church library - maybe someone else will do better with it).

Bill Freeman was fond of saying that self examination is mostly just "morbid introspection," and this is to be avoided always, as it simply results in condemnation. He says the self is not qualified to examine the self, and that this should be left to the Spirit alone. (I might also say that this is a root of Christless religion, but I know many on here don't necessarily share the same aversion to the word "religion" as I do.)

Nell, I'm still considering your question as to the scriptural basis for experiencing the cross, and will come back to it when I have some more time . . .

[Ohio]

Pick up your cross by loving your neighbor as yourself.

[Truthseeker]

More or less, teaching concerning cross among "local churches " is something related to LSM's agenda. For example, being crucified with Christ for keeping oneness among saints in the churches under LSM's control. If a sister complained how she is harrassed sexually by elder, she wouldn't be crucified with Christ and experience the cross. So, she should remain silent for proving that she has already been crucified with Christ. This is what we are taught in LSM about cross experience.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

Can you first give scriptural “evidence” that Christians “experience the cross”? Of course, in the New Testament we are frequently told to “take up our cross” which indicates we have a cross to bear. We have sufferings as Christians, but “rain falls on the just and the unjust.” I don’t find verses to support “experience the cross” as something we are commanded to do. We have a cross to bear, take it and follow Him.

Here are some verses to consider pursuant your question.

Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Matt 16:24:25

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." Gal 5:24-25

Objective Fact: "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." Subjective Action: "Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry." Col 3:3 & 5

Objective Fact: "Our old man was crucified with Him." Subjective Action: "If by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." Rom 6:6 & 8:13

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Here are some verses to consider pursuant your question.

Then Jesus told His disciples, “If anyone would come after Me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." Matt 16:24:25

"Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." Gal 5:24-25

Objective Fact: "For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God." Subjective Action: "Put to death, therefore, the components of your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry." Col 3:3 & 5

Objective Fact: "Our old man was crucified with Him." Subjective Action: "If by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." Rom 6:6 & 8:13

I dunno STG. It appears to me that these verses point more to the workings of the Spirit; that is, in bearing the cross you allow the Spirit to do the work....it’s not something separate from the Spirit or something we could ever figure out.

I think, as UntoHim alluded, He experienced the cross so we wouldn’t have to. For our part, we pray, trust, obey...walk the path in front of us taking and bearing our cross. We can make the choice...we can choose Him. He is the Great Physician who can diagnose and heal by whatever means He decides. He is the Potter. We are the clay. We don’t need to concern ourselves with how He works...just that he is the willing and doing of his good pleasure.

Anyway, I think that’s what I think about that.

Nell

[UntoHim]

The promise:
Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. (John 14:19)

The fulfillment:
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

The way we "experience" the cross is the very same way we "experience" the resurrection - it is in and through "the life I now live", and the life I now live begins when we get out of bed in the morning. Yes, to be sure, there is a battle to be waged between the old man and the new man, between the old creation and the new creation, and between the kingdom of this world and the Kingdom of God. There is the cosmic war without, and there is a cosmic war within.

The simple fact is that our Lord Jesus has actually won the cosmic war without - he did this through his all efficacious death on the cross. But the story did not end there: "Because I live, you also will live". He experienced death - He tasted death, so that we could experience life. The life that is really life.
-

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

The promise:
Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. (John 14:19)

The fulfillment:
I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. (Galatians 2:20)

The way we "experience" the cross is the very same way we "experience" the resurrection - it is in and through "the life I now live", and the life I now live begins when we get out of bed in the morning. Yes, to be sure, there is a battle to be waged between the old man and the new man, between the old creation and the new creation, and between the kingdom of this world and the Kingdom of God. There is the cosmic war without, and there is a cosmic war within.

The simple fact is that our Lord Jesus has actually won the cosmic war without - he did this through his all efficacious death on the cross. But the story did not end there: "Because I live, you also will live". He experienced death - He tasted death, so that we could experience life. The life that is really life.

-

Yes, apart from Christ’s resurrection we wouldn’t experience the cross.

For example Romans 6 covers our being united with Christ in both His death and resurrection, then goes on to say we reckon ourselves as dead to sin and alive to God through Jesus Christ. https://biblehub.com/bsb/romans/6.htm. Hallelujah we have both in Christ.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Nell

I dunno STG. It appears to me that these verses point more to the workings of the Spirit; that is, in bearing the cross you allow the Spirit to do the work....it’s not something separate from the Spirit or something we could ever figure out.

I think, as UntoHim alluded, He experienced the cross so we wouldn’t have to. For our part, we pray, trust, obey...walk the path in front of us taking and bearing our cross. We can make the choice...we can choose Him. He is the Great Physician who can diagnose and heal by whatever means He decides. He is the Potter. We are the clay. We don’t need to concern ourselves with how He works...just that he is the willing and doing of his good pleasure.

Anyway, I think that’s what I think about that.

Nell

Amen - yes, exactly! It is only by the Spirit in and through us. Religion (and complexity) are in a mis-rendering of the verse, "If, by the Spirit, you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." That verse conveys it simply. But if we take out the "by the Spirit" part, then we are left with thinking we have to put to death something.

What I'm beginning to see these days is the cross is a much simpler thing than I had thought. It is just turning to Him and obeying Him - then His life is allowed to operate and grow in us in that area. There is no onerous putting to death whatever it is, because it's experienced in Him and His life in us.

Does that make sense? Me, doing anything other than turning to Him and trusting Him, is pointless.

UntoHim - ditto!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Amen - yes, exactly! It is only by the Spirit in and through us. Religion (and complexity) are in a mis-rendering of the verse, "If, by the Spirit, you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." That verse conveys it simply. But if we take out the "by the Spirit" part, then we are left with thinking we have to put to death something.

What I'm beginning to see these days is the cross is a much simpler thing than I had thought. It is just turning to Him and obeying Him - then His life is allowed to operate and grow in us in that area. There is no onerous putting to death whatever it is, because it's experienced in Him and His life in us.

Does that make sense? Me, doing anything other than turning to Him and trusting Him, is pointless.

UntoHim - ditto!

...and obedience!

1 Samuel 15:22 ...obedience is better than sacrifice. And I don’t mean obey the teachings of Lee...or the “blendeds”. By the time I left “it” I was convinced that it was much “easier” to follow Jesus than it was to follow Lee, or the likes of the truly merciless Ron Kangas!

Hebrews 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Nell