1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[byHismercy]

Hi saints,

Can we open a conversation about LCs teaching on a 1,000 year period of outer darkness for believers? I experienced different saints in the LC warning me at different times of the danger of being left behind at the rapture, and being left in outer darkness for 1,000 years....separated from God, I guess.

Can anybody say concretely what they teach and believe on this point?

After being born again, scripture taught me I was secure in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that nothing could separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. I felt so confident in my position in Christ, in my faith in Christ. My faith in Jesus has never wavered. If anything, I have witnessed Him perfecting it.

I have been seeking what the Lord has to say on this subject this past week or two. I would appreciate some input from someone who has made a study of this topic. Even point me in the right direction in scripture to study.

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect? It seems a contradiction of scripture to me, to teach this to regenerated believers. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. To spend 1,000 years outside of Gods light would be a temporary hell, as I see it. How could any believer end up there? And isn't this temporary punishment the same as a catholic purgatory?

Is this another tactic used by these LC con artists to instill fear and implement control over the body of Christ?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints,

Can we open a conversation about LCs teaching on a 1,000 year period of outer darkness for believers? I experienced different saints in the LC warning me at different times of the danger of being left behind at the rapture, and being left in outer darkness for 1,000 years....separated from God, I guess.

Can anybody say concretely what they teach and believe on this point?

After being born again, scripture taught me I was secure in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that nothing could separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. I felt so confident in my position in Christ, in my faith in Christ. My faith in Jesus has never wavered. If anything, I have witnessed Him perfecting it.

I have been seeking what the Lord has to say on this subject this past week or two. I would appreciate some input from someone who has made a study of this topic. Even point me in the right direction in scripture to study.

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect? It seems a contradiction of scripture to me, to teach this to regenerated believers. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. To spend 1,000 years outside of Gods light would be a temporary hell, as I see it. How could any believer end up there? And isn't this temporary punishment the same as a catholic purgatory?

Is this another tactic used by these LC con artists to instill fear and implement control over the body of Christ?

I don't disagree with the general interpretation that "outer darkness" in the NT does not refer to Hell and it is a destination for genuine believers nor do I disagree with what you have written highlighted in purple.

Once you are saved you are always saved, for eternity. Basically what you have written.

That said the Lord said to "take up your cross and follow Him". You can do that willingly, but one way or another you will go through the cross of Christ. It is the only way to know the fellowship of His sufferings. It is the only way to experience resurrection power and it is the only way to be perfected. In Hebrews we are told to "go outside the camp to Him". This is an experience we must have, if you are too afraid to go outside the camp to the cross in this life, then perhaps 1,000 years is required.

When the Lord returns we all will have to appear before the Lord at the Throne of Christ. Why? If He is going to say "well done, good and faithful slave" to some then surely He is not going to say it to others. Otherwise it becomes meaningless.

Why does Paul tell us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?

[byHismercy]

Thank you for your input, ZNP.

[byHismercy]

What about the word which states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Let's say a believer fails to work out their salvation. Would their 'present with the Lord' also be temporary, then?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

What about the word which states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Let's say a believer fails to work out their salvation. Would their 'present with the Lord' also be temporary, then?

I have not found any verses anywhere, not even a hint concerning differences in regards to the conditions of dead believers. (Is that what you are referring to?)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I have not found any verses anywhere, not even a hint concerning differences in regards to the conditions of dead believers. (Is that what you are referring to?)

Can you clarify, Raptor? My position is that I don't believe some believers are present with the Lord at the time they leave their bodies whilst some are placed in 1,000 years of outer darkness. I don't see scripture supporting this LC teaching. ZNP agrees with that peculiar doctrine, so I was wondering if he believes some believers only temporarily are with the Lord posthumously, or how he reconciles 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' with that teaching. It seems to contradict with this word.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect?

I personally feel this teaching is very correct. There are too many verses and too many warnings concerning what kind of walk we should have after we are saved and the possible consequences. Once saved, eternally saved, YES!...that was settled on the cross and when we believed. But whether our walk will be well pleasing to the Lord or not is something He will settle at His judgement seat and is a matter of reward and yes....some kind of punishment or discipline .

I actually appreciate this teaching, it is fair, righteous and sobering. Without getting into any verses, just imagine, two people who believe and get saved at the same time. Both are forgiven, born again, genuine believers. One follows the Lord, denies his self, loves Him, serves Him, grows in the knowledge of God and keeps the faith until the end . The other, goes back into the world, lives in sin, forgets about the Lord, and refuses to hear Him . When the Lord comes back, will the Lord consider them the same? Will He grant them the same inheritance?

Even more...consider this: I have had too many experiences that show me that even in my current walk with the Lord, when I have sinned, (and depending on the seriousness of the sin), I lose the presence of the Lord. Sometimes very painfully so, and end up deadened and in some kind of dark condition. Not until I thoroughly confess and even sometimes have to wait for His timing, does He come back with His presence and joy. Imagine living a whole life that displeases Him.

The teaching is solid food when you get into all the details and verses. But on the other hand, we should not give ground to any abnormal fears caused by unbalanced understandings or the devil's accusations. The Father is pleased in giving us the Kingdom, Luke 12:32, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom".....and His yoke is easy, the burden light.

Will the punishment be literally 1,000 years? That is what WL taught. I understand that the reward is to rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, but we may lose it, and that it is made equivalent to the wedding feast, yet we may miss it . But I have not seen any verses that actually say outer darkness is for 1,000 years, neither where it says that it is not.

This is a big subject.

[UntoHim]

Original, opening post:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect? It seems a contradiction of scripture to me, to teach this to regenerated believers. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. To spend 1,000 years outside of Gods light would be a temporary hell, as I see it. How could any believer end up there? And isn't this temporary punishment the same as a catholic purgatory?
Is this another tactic used by these LC con artists to instill fear and implement control over the body of Christ?

There is very little dispute among serious Christians that there will be some form of reward and some form of punishment for Christians in the coming Kingdom. I would suggest that anyone who is serious about finding out the various understandings and interpretations would have absolutely no problem at all, after doing a reasonable amount of digging, finding out what understandings and interpretations seem the most biblical and logical.

What we do know for sure is Witness Lee's interpretation and teaching of reward and punishment was totally off base. Firstly, Lee was totally unqualified to make such weighty judgments regarding something so profound as reward and punishment in the coming Kingdom. How could it be that a man that was so loose and irresponsible with reward and punishment in the present age be trusted to give an accurate teaching regarding reward and punishment in the next age?
-

[Nell]

I think the point of this whole issue is to be accountable, in this age, for your sins and disobedience. Seek the light now and live and walk in the light now. Be quick to repent now. I pray that in nothing would I be deceived; that in nothing would I remain accountable.

Living the Christian life while accountable for the light we have should render the teaching on Outer Darkness a moot point.

Nell

[HBJ]

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

Not to disagree with you, but outer darkness is a red letter thing, in the gospel of Matthew only.

I'd call it a very important notion, but not enough for anyone else to remark about it ; Mark, Luke, John, nada.

Whoever wrote the gospel that eventually got named Matthew, must have been framing his gospel to appeal to a specific audience, that held a outer darkness doctrine, or saying.

But the entire gospel doesn't toss any of us into outer darkness. We're not Matthew's intended audience.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

But the entire gospel doesn't toss any of us into outer darkness. We're not Matthew's intended audience.

This is what I have come to believe, Harold. I didn't know that you agreed. Actually, I was hoping for more input from everyone as to whether they see this exact point, or if they may see if I have misinterpreted that passage of Matthew. I plan on reading a little book by a guy named Ruckman about the two kingdoms, who each gospel is presented to in the word and get more clarity with it. I am so sorry you need a 'days' break from all humanity. I took my 3 little kids into a convenience store the other day, and the guy behind the counter was what you could only describe as abusive. I ultimately felt compassion for this angry man, and that could only come from the Spirit. I myself am naturally vindictive and hateful towards those who mistreat me. Praise Jesus, He must be operating in me! And He would never mistreat you, brother. God bless you and cover you from abuses we lay upon each other in this world. God enlarge your heart and heal you.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

So are you saying there is no potential negative for believers at the Bema Seat of Christ? I think what we've being going back and forth about on this thread is whether the negative would be just a loss of reward, or whether it could be construed as an outright punishment - i.e., outer darkness of some other immensely undesirable thing.

And then there's the infamous "1000 years in outer darkness" that was held over our heads in the LC . . . that has been pretty well debunked on here already!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And then there's the infamous "1000 years in outer darkness" that was held over our heads in the LC . . . that has been pretty well debunked on here already!

Should I be reading the other thread on the 1,000 years, Stg?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Should I be reading the other thread on the 1,000 years, Stg?

Not following you . . . there may have been another thread on this, I don't remember if was here or another. Do you not think the 1000 years in outer darkness has been debunked, or . . . ?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Not following you . . . there may have been another thread on this, I don't remember if was here or another. Do you not think the 1000 years in outer darkness has been debunked, or . . . ?

Hi Stg, I reject this teaching, but I really don't know how many of us who have come out of the LC and may have once believed what we were taught about facing 1,000 years outer darkness are clear on this subject. I saw there was another thread on this same subject after I opened this thread. I have not read it yet, but have been meaning to get to it. If it had been debunked in general, praise the Lord.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory!

Couple points to "confuse" the discussion:

The Corinthians were baptized for the dead, did they not pray for them too? (I Cor 15.29)

Though the Catholic teaching of Purgatory was grotesquely distorted by Luther's time, did it not start out with scriptural support? (I Cor 3.13, 15)

The difficulty here is throwing out the truths of scripture with the errors and leaven.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Couple points to "confuse" the discussion:

The Corinthians were baptized for the dead, did they not pray for them too? (I Cor 15.29)

Though the Catholic teaching of Purgatory was grotesquely distorted by Luther's time, did it not start out with scriptural support? (I Cor 3.13, 15)

The difficulty here is throwing out the truths of scripture with the errors and leaven.

Oh my brother, it dost seem almost as though you are trying to make a case for the RCC here!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Oh my brother, it dost seem almost as though you are trying to make a case for the RCC here!

Absolutely not! God forbid! Heavens no! May it never be!

I will repeat my point, which I have repeated a thousand times here: Don't throw out the truths of scripture when rejecting error, because nearly every time there is valuable truth hidden in that error, just as there is fine flour in the leavened loaf.

This is the real danger of systems of error. You and I are survivors. We left the RCC and yet still believed in Jesus, yet I knew hundreds who did not. We left the LC and still believe in Jesus, yet I know hundreds who did not.

Why? Nearly every time the truth could not be separated from the error. Paul said "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21) This forum is just a "testing ground" for the truths of His word. Unfortunately in both the RCC and the LC there was little opportunity for testing.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Absolutely not! God forbid! Heavens no! May it never be!

I will repeat my point, which I have repeated a thousand times here: Don't throw out the truths of scripture when rejecting error, because nearly every time there is valuable truth hidden in that error, just as there is fine flour in the leavened loaf.

This is the real danger of systems of error. You and I are survivors. We left the RCC and yet still believed in Jesus, yet I knew hundreds who did not. We left the LC and still believe in Jesus, yet I know hundreds who did not.

Why? Nearly every time the truth could not be separated from the error. Paul said "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21) This forum is just a "testing ground" for the truths of His word. Unfortunately in the both the RCC and the LC there was little opportunity for testing.

I really love this perspective, Ohio. Wonderful....a testing ground for error. I agree. Praise the Lord for this sounding board. Quite the opposite from what the LC is. And I think someone voted your name for the next YouTube channel? I second it. Let it be recorded.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

Yes yes yes, and thank you for expressing what I believe but could not frame! You hit it on point exactly. The 1,000 years of outer darkness totally nullifies the gospel of Christs death for us, and His action there was perfect and completely efficacious! To say we may go into darkness is to deny Jesus work, imho.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

I completely agree. I've never understood having to atone, much less atone by 1000 of separation from Christ. And will some only get 900 years,532 years, 3 years, or is it just a one sentence length deal?

[HBJ]

The older I get the moreI find I can do ZERO without the Lord. My human nature hates that! I was driving on the freeway and someone cut me off. So, I thought the Lord says to have mercy....maybe they just didn't have coffee that AM and were grumpy. I thought I had fulfilled what we are told to do. The Lord spoke to me and said we are to LOVE mercy! I thought WHAT! LOVE being merciful? That throws me out of the equation.

That is why I cannot fathom negative judgment for a believer except for less/no reward. We think we can meet God's standard but the word says if we hate our brother, = murder, or look at a woman with lust, = adultery.

Now there ARE a few verses that I am concerned about. 1) If we don't forgive others' sins, we won't have ours forgiven. What if a Christian who truly accepted the Lord doesn't forgive? Do they lose salvation? We could enter into another thread on that one---Once saved always saved or can you lose it? Or--was the person truly saved to begin with?

We all are responsible for ourselves. If we can say Lord help me forgive, like Corrie Ten Boom forgave a concentration camp guard she knew, we can use His strength. In the end we just have to seek the Lord in spite of things. Don't be concerned if issues from the past come up again and again. Emotions take a long time to heal. Give it to the Lord. I personally figuratively signed over to the Lord a document giving him authority to judge anyone who ever has done wrong against me. That way when emotions come up, they are easier to drop.

2) The word also says that those who teach will be judged more harshly....which should be very sobering to those in leadership position!

Based upon 1 and 2, maybe there are negative consequences when we go before the Lord. But based upon the word as a whole and the nature of man and of God, I cannot believe in anything but the loss of an portion of our eternal reward.