What is true?

[stillseekingtruth]

Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

1. Are we going to heaven when we die or are we 'becoming the New Jerusalem'?

2. Are we going to be God's dwelling place for eternity? I understand that we won't be God in life and nature...

3. What is the truth about mingling? Is this biblical?

4. Are we born of God or adopted by God?

5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.

6. What is the real meaning of life?

7. Is there a 'central vision' in the Bible?

8. Are the crystallization studies biblical or just WL's imagination?

9. What does it mean to 'think the same thing?'

10. How do we separate what was true and what was a lie from what we were taught in the LR?

11. How do we continue on when we don't want to fight anymore?

12. How do we stop looking over our shoulder and waiting to be punished (not by God so much as man)?

13. Is the teaching about natural affection being evil true?

14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?

[Sons to Glory!]

See my quick answers below in blue (and a few 2nd pass, longer edits):

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

1. Are we going to heaven when we die or are we 'becoming the New Jerusalem'?
May be both, but ultimately NJ for sure. "I saw the NJ coming down from heaven as a bride adorned for her Husband."

2. Are we going to be God's dwelling place for eternity? I understand that we won't be God in life and nature...
This is my understanding of Ephesians

3. What is the truth about mingling? Is this biblical?
Not a biblical word, but He's certainly joined Himself to us in spirit. (1 Cor 6:17)

4. Are we born of God or adopted by God?
I think scripture indicates both - being born again is a matter of life, while adoption is the legal aspect.

5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.
My answer is to ask Him directly - He is faithful to answer.

6. What is the real meaning of life?
To love God and have an ongoing relationship with Him, and love those around us.

7. Is there a 'central vision' in the Bible?
God loves us! We blew it. God came to rescue us by manifesting in the flesh, dying in our place, giving us His righteousness, and coming to live in us. No one loves more than this!

8. Are the crystallization studies biblical or just WL's imagination?
I don't know about these - been gone too long.

9. What does it mean to 'think the same thing?'
Only achieved by looking away to Him - certainly not by our efforts!

10. How do we separate what was true and what was a lie from what we were taught in the LR?
Look to Him. Ask Him to give you clear understanding of His word and shine light on what is not true. For me it's 20+ years of recovering from The Recovery. But knowing His love, as the basis for everything He does toward us, was the beginning of real revelation concerning Him.

11. How do we continue on when we don't want to fight anymore?
In your weakness He is made strong in you. Thank Him for the opportunity to experience His strength through you and ask Him to help you.

12. How do we stop looking over our shoulder and waiting to be punished (not by God so much as man)?
Need a clear seeing that His primary motive towards you is His great love for you, and He works all things for your good! "He who has begun a good work in you is faithful to complete it."

13. Is the teaching about natural affection being evil true?
Can't address.

14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?
Yes! Condemnation is a lie! For freedom He set us free! (Gal 5:1)

[stillseekingtruth]

Thank you. I'm so overwhelmed right now. I keep imagining myself talking to a sister and accidentally bringing all this out. Leaving the LR is hard. There are so many memories swamping me.

One more question:

Is mental illness a heart issue?
I guess two: What of biblical counseling and those who believe that everything you need is in God's word? Psychologically speaking.

[aron]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Thank you. I'm so overwhelmed right now. I keep imagining myself talking to a sister and accidentally bringing all this out. Leaving the LR is hard. There are so many memories swamping me.

Maybe you need to PM one of the women on this forum, or maybe one (or more) can PM you. Maybe you need more than doctrinal questions addressed.

It's mind- boggling when you think how many human souls have been ejected from the LC system as you are: overwhelmed and disoriented. Many are discouraged, frightened and confused. The LC system didn't work for them and it "wrecked" them (their words) from finding any path at all. Many abandoned the faith.

You are not alone. And you are speaking (writing). Both are good things.

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Is mental illness a heart issue? What of biblical counseling and those who believe that everything you need is in God's word? Psychologically speaking.

In the LC, you got one answer: the Deputy God. The Oracle has spoken. Out in the real world, if you ask 100 people, you get 100 opinions. I'll give you mine.

There is only one question: is God really out there? Or is it myth? If you answer in the negative, then you have to make do in a universe without God. Some seem to do well at it.

Myself, I just prefer God existing to non-existing. I'm funny that way. I just think there's a good God, who cares. Somehow that is preferable to the Big Empty Nothing. This leads me to consider paths to God. Now, if I grew up in a tribe in Lesotho or Swaziland then I might pick another path, but my destiny was to find myself one day on the "sawdust trail" of a Bible church, and here I am.

So, Question 1 (God) leads to Question 2 (Christ). Did Jesus really exist? Did he rise to glory and eternal kingship? Well, the only witnesses are in the Bible, an obviously biased source. It is of polemical and not historical nature.

But the Twelve were witnessed by Paul. Was Paul a myth? Was Polycarp? Or Irenaeus? At some point the crowd of interlocking testimonies lead me to conclude that I'm either facing the most clever forgery of human history or there's something behind all this. But what?

Believe, confess, love your (usually unlovable) neighbour. Try to be kind to others. Give to those who can't repay you in this age. Remember the poor and the sick. Don't steal, don't lie. Basic stuff.

And yes the New Jerusalem is there in the holy writ but if you don't get the basics it doesn't matter. I am still learning about the NJ. Who are the nations that walk in its light? Who are the kings that bring their glory in? Does Lee's answer make any sense to you? It does not, to me. So the journey continues.

As to your questions, if you can get a firm grasp of One and Two, that may help to navigate the rest. Godspeed.

[stillseekingtruth]

I know whom i have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committee unto Him against that day. It isn't a matter of belief in God or His Son ans salvation. (Most days) it is a matter of how to live and what is really true. Its not the Word as much as the interpretation of the Word. What does the Word mean to me? Or what does it mean as God meant it to mean and how do we know?

[aron]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

I know whom i have believed and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I've committee unto Him against that day. It isn't a matter of belief in God or His Son ans salvation. (Most days) it is a matter of how to live and what is really true. Its not the Word as much as the interpretation of the Word. What does the Word mean to me? Or what does it mean as God meant it to mean and how do we know?

Nell gave good advice - let go of everything you thought you knew and trust him. That was what I was saying, with my previous post.

As far as interpretation of the Word there are fantastic resources out there. But at it's core it's very simple, that was what I was trying to say earlier. If you have the basics then you can navigate the complexities.

The LC system is such a complete and thorough mind-rape that it's best to drop it all. If you were sucked into the 24/7/365 "church life" as many of us were, just start from the basics and move on. Give yourself one or two simple questions that you can answer in the affirmative, and you'll go forward. I mean, if God didn't raise Jesus from the dead on the third day, then we're just all wasting our time here. If he did, then we have hope and we go on.

The gospel is very simple but it's very deep. That is what has drawn, and continues to draw, seekers through the centuries. My own 'starting point' is the two great gospel messages in Acts, one by the Galilean fisherman Peter and one by the urban Pharisee Paul. Both use almost identical phrases and imagery. Compare Acts 2:24-32 with Acts 13:30-38. It's the same gospel. Why should any of us try to re-invent it?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?

Definitely yes. This may or may not help you, but one brother I know made the comment that in the garden of Eden there were many other trees besides the tree of life that God told Adam and Eve were good for food and that they were allowed to eat. There is plenty of stuff out there that is a normal part of human life that is not sinful that we are fully free to do and enjoy.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

1. Are we going to heaven when we die or are we 'becoming the New Jerusalem'?
2. Are we going to be God's dwelling place for eternity? I understand that we won't be God in life and nature...
3. What is the truth about mingling? Is this biblical?
4. Are we born of God or adopted by God?
5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.
6. What is the real meaning of life?
7. Is there a 'central vision' in the Bible?
8. Are the crystallization studies biblical or just WL's imagination?
9. What does it mean to 'think the same thing?'
10. How do we separate what was true and what was a lie from what we were taught in the LR?
11. How do we continue on when we don't want to fight anymore?
12. How do we stop looking over our shoulder and waiting to be punished (not by God so much as man)?
13. Is the teaching about natural affection being evil true?
14. Are we allowed to enjoy things in this world apart from the meetings, Life studies and the ministry? I mean, can we ever take a vacation and not feel guilty?

Wow! Stillseekingtruth! By the time I got through reading your questions, I thought my head was going to explode! I can only imagine how you must feel! I didn’t have all those questions, but some of them I certainly had.

Having so many really good questions means you are in a good place. As you continue looking for answers, I have a suggestion that may help you find the answers you seek. Take every question and ask the Lord Jesus for the answer. I know. That may sound like a cop out or some such. I had some of the same kind of questions, and no one could answer them for me to my satisfaction. Other people helped me some, but there was always something missing.

I solved my problem by determining that everything I ever heard WL teach or anything I ever heard in the LC was wrong or questionable. I decided to throw it all out. There was too much for me to do otherwise. I then looked to the Lord to show me His truth from His Word and from my experience and answers to my prayer. Whatever I kept was from the Word and that had nothing to do with Witness Lee. It was everything to do with God’s Word and no credit to any man.

After years of this...asking the Lord for answers...I realized that I was getting to know Him as a person I could talk to, and someone who talked to me. He was the person who, in the middle of heavy traffic, making me upset, angry and late for work, he said to me “let them all go”. Meaning, all the cars trying to cut you off...let them. I said OK. I don’t remember if I was late to work or not, but I do remember the conversation I had with Him that day, all these years later.

His answers are the best. Others’ answers may be perfectly right and OK, or not, but coming from Him, it’s much better! Even amazing! Now, He’s my best friend. I talk to Him all the time and he talks back. Many of the questions I had before were not answered...that I remember...but they are no longer questions.

You can tell Him anything. He keeps secrets. He’s just the best. Going on vacation is OK with Him. He will go with you and even help you plan it and then plop Himself down right in the middle of your trip and give you some special moments and times. I speak from experience.

He’s not fast. He’s thorough, and complete, and better at this stuff than you ever imagined. I have been on some of the most fantastic trips that I never dreamed I would get to take. I have been to France 5 times, last month to Normandy (D-Day 75). He did it. It seems it doesn’t really matter about all the “things” of this life, as long as you open your heart to the life he can give you and include him.

I hope this helps. He’s the best.

This is true.

Nell

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Nell

I solved my problem by determining that everything I ever heard WL teach or anything I ever heard in the LC was wrong or questionable. I decided to throw it all out.

Same here!! I may not have been in the LC as long as most people here have but the spirit of LR was on me for many, many years to come.

After years of this...asking the Lord for answers...I realized that I was getting to know Him as a person I could talk to, and someone who talked to me. He was the person who, in the middle of heavy traffic, making me upset, angry and late for work, he said to me “let them all go”. Meaning, all the cars trying to cut you off...let them. I said OK. I don’t remember if I was late to work or not, but I do remember the conversation I had with Him that day, all these years later.

This reminds me of an experience I had a couple of weeks ago. These 2 people I know put me in a bad mood for 2 days. What's more is they are really nice people but can be a thorn on my side. They inadvertently stole my joy and peace. So after 2 days, I told the Lord I hate being in a bad mood!! I asked Him to remove it from me. Suddenly I burst out singing.. I made up a song to the LORD and within 2 minutes top that bad mood spirit left me! and I have been over all in a good mood again ever since! That's not to say I don't get frustrated at times. Just today, I had it out with my brother but we made up after a few hours of each of us going to our own corners

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

This reminds me of an experience I had a couple of weeks ago. These 2 people I know put me in a bad mood for 2 days. What's more is they are really nice people but can be a thorn on my side. They inadvertently stole my joy and peace. So after 2 days, I told the Lord I hate being in a bad mood!! I asked Him to remove it from me. Suddenly I burst out singing.. I made up a song to the LORD and within 2 minutes top that bad mood spirit left me! and I have been over all in a good mood again ever since! That's not to say I don't get frustrated at times. Just today, I had it out with my brother but we made up after a few hours of each of us going to our own corners

Thanks - Great testimony of a fresh experience of Christ in your life!!

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks - Great testimony of a fresh experience of Christ in your life!!

Hello StG, do you know or fellowship with anybody in OKC?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hello StG, do you know or fellowship with anybody in OKC?

Is that Oklahoma City? If so, there are a few in that area (and/or Tulsa I think) that fellowship occasionally with us in Scottsdale. Why? Are you interested in getting some contact info?

[stillseekingtruth]

Oh wow! Thank you, Nell. I will take it all to Him. I started to discard music from LSM (so called hymns that they changed the words to so that they could match the ministry) I looked at my bookshelf yesterday and stacked up LR books for the trash. Do you know what crept into my head today? "I'm not allowed to have an opinion about that." Then I asked, " Am I allowed to have an opinion? Am I allowed to have desires and wants? Am I allowed to be disappointed when life gets murky?" I hear myself pray in TLR language. My understanding about God, Jesus, and the Spirit are tangled with ministry and Christiantiy. I was reading Corinthians this morning and I was so confused. I wanted to seek out a 'teaching' on it, but I'm afraid to because I don't know who to trust.

What am I to ponder? These moments in my mind often lead to frustration and I end up stating that I don't care and what does it matter? It becomes a contention between me and my husband. At the church meetings we go to at the denominationI respond with, "I've heard this a million times." or I scruitinize the message. I don't know why but these thoughts and frustrations make me want to cut myself just to relieve the pain. But I've been good not doing that for a long time.

[LoveHim&HearHim]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Forgive me if this isn't the correct forum. I have a few questions.

5. How do you know who to trust? I asked this question in the LR and was told to turn to my spirit.

When you read the Bible, there is not one verse that tells us to trust men. In fact, what the Bible is replete with are verses telling us we should trust in the Lord. Acts 14:23 states, "Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust." Please note in whom they placed their trust. Furthermore, God's word informs us that we should test and prove each spirit, as it says in 1 John 4:1 - Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Please note the explanation as to why we should test the spirits - "because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

God blessed us with a new covenant; one in which

"This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest."

The end of the goal of the new covenant is that each of His children will know Him personally.

You may then ask, "What about trust between believers? What should I do here?" No doubt we have relations between each other as members of His Body. However, this trust goes insofar as the Spirit leads us. We should never blindly follow others as they are not the Head, since there is only one Head and we are all to be subjected under Him. However, in practice, we each fall short of being under the Headship of Christ. This fact is why we must always seek to give the Lord the first place in all things and not depend on others to lead us. This does not mean we are not open to listen and hear others. It just means we should all listen and hear each other and allow the words spoken to be measured and discerned by the Holy Spirit who abides in us.

[stillseekingtruth]

Originally Posted by LoveHim&HearHim

When you read the Bible, there is not one verse that tells us to trust men. In fact, what the Bible is replete with are verses telling us we should trust in the Lord. Acts 14:23 states, "Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust." Please note in whom they placed their trust. Furthermore, God's word informs us that we should test and prove each spirit, as it says in 1 John 4:1 - Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. Please note the explanation as to why we should test the spirits - "because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

God blessed us with a new covenant; one in which

"This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest."

The end of the goal of the new covenant is that each of His children will know Him personally.

You may then ask, "What about trust between believers? What should I do here?" No doubt we have relations between each other as members of His Body. However, this trust goes insofar as the Spirit leads us. We should never blindly follow others as they are not the Head, since there is only one Head and we are all to be subjected under Him. However, in practice, we each fall short of being under the Headship of Christ. This fact is why we must always seek to give the Lord the first place in all things and not depend on others to lead us. This does not mean we are not open to listen and hear others. It just means we should all listen and hear each other and allow the words spoken to be measured and discerned by the Holy Spirit who abides in us.

Essentially, we need to take everything we hear to the Lord and match it against the Word? I recall many times whenI read verses side by side with the ministry and it was a very loose tie. In fact, there were times that you had to make a huge leap to try to understand the interpretation. Alas, I was told to just except it and let Christ reveal it to me. Or rather, just pray read the outlines and pray read the verses. Don't try to understand it, just eat it. Now, in Mainstream Christianity, it's all about learning and doctrine. Is it odd that my being physically reacts to such things? I shudder at the word 'doctrine' and 'learn.' Don't these people know we're just supposed to taste and see? Oy....here goes my mind again. I feel the fire-filled rage burning within so I'll end here.

[stillseekingtruth]

Another question I have - are the pictures of the three circles (body, soul, and spirit) biblical? Is Christ spreading from our spirit to our soul? Is that transformation? In maintream Christianity I was told that the spirit and the soul are the same thing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Another question I have - are the pictures of the three circles (body, soul, and spirit) biblical? Is Christ spreading from our spirit to our soul? Is that transformation? In maintream Christianity I was told that the spirit and the soul are the same thing.

The spirit and soul are not the same, but I don't care for those 3 circles anymore. Can we really dissect all these inward parts? If physical sickness affects my mind, then we are far more complicated than the 3 circles lends us to believe.

Today I prefer to find a translation I like and just read it. Since I have been out for a while, I now can look at many verses where Lee stretched his interpretation and contradicted or distorted the Bible. We have had many discussion threads on these discrepancies. Slowly over time, my understanding has departed from Lee and now more closely matches scripture. It takes time.

I encourage you to rejoice with every step. Each time you get delivered from a "Lee-ism" is a part of your un-leavening process. Those who have tried for a "quick fix" have sometimes thrown out the good with the bad. The teachings of Lee tampered with our faith and love to our Savior. We never want to let go of those.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Another question I have - are the pictures of the three circles (body, soul, and spirit) biblical? Is Christ spreading from our spirit to our soul? Is that transformation? In maintream Christianity I was told that the spirit and the soul are the same thing.

Yes, there are certainly some that believe soul and spirit are the same, but also many who don't - even in mainstream Christianity. It just depends on who you are listening to.If you do some digging yourself with a concordance, you will find verses mentioning each as showing them to be different.

A couple clear verses are:

"Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thess 5:23

"For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart."